Going Rogue : Report on The Incident of the 31st of January

[Claverhouse]

But yes, I know how rage feels, and that's what it was.

I've never felt rage.



Claverhouse





'Technical incompetence' ?

 

[fullerene]

I wasn't talking to you, ash. I'm not actually sure why you thought it was. My whole post was prefaced with "claver:" and never once did I mention you.

 

[Latro]

I've never felt rage.

Are you happy about this? I would consider my life to be considerably less rich without having had the experience of rage. The sheer rawness of it is quite powerful in verifying one's humanity to oneself, despite the unpleasantness of the experience itself and usually of its consequences.

'Technical incompetence' ?

Incompetence with regard to technical matters. I see the reason for the confusion, however.

 

[Wisp]

Hm.

Inappropriate. Latro lost control of himself compltely in a very juvenile fashion, and Claver responded in a provocative and juvenile way.

Is this what our hallowed halls have descended to?

 

[ashitaria]

Still doesn't change the fact that everyone of you-everyone- is blaming cleaverhouse for banning Jesin. This isn't a sign of righteous anger, this isn't a sign of indignant, this is a sign of irrational anger and out-cry against the protection of the forum against a potential hacker.

I first posted in this thread a mock rant, now I'm debating for my life. Seriously, you guys should all know better. Anger and disbelief and shock isn't going to help us now. What we really need is to- SOLVE THE PROBLEM.

Just my thoughts.

 

[GarmGarf]

I think everyone should just take a breather to be honest. Give it a day or two.

The community fighting with each other like this is probably just filling the heart of whoever caused all this with joy, at our expense.

 

[Ogion]

Good God (and i'm not a believer) ashitaria.
We're not "blaming" and we're not mobbing him or something. As you might notice at least i (and a few others) am admin too, so this is really just a difference in opinion.

Also, your points make no sense. If you think it is Jesin ,then "hacker" is the wrong word and there is no problem anymore since Jesin is banned from the forum.
above somewhere you (i tihnk it was you) said that if it was a hacker getting a hold on Jesins pw would be something that could happen again. Well, of course. And not just to Jesin, it could happen to me or anyone else too.

Ogion

 

[fullerene]

ash: would you mind making a thread about what constitutes righteous anger, as well as the "signs" that separate it from other kinds?

I'm not sure I could tell the difference, myself. If you understand more clearly I'd like to read your thoughts on it. Not here, though, because it's off-topic and would just clutter the thread.

 

[Latro]

Latro: I don't think that's what he meant. Forgive me for saying this, but you haven't been here very long, and it's hard to get to know someone through only what they say, deprived of all the other nuances of human communication. Add to that the fact that Jesin hasn't been very active lately, and can you see why the older members, who were around when he was active, are saying others don't know him? No-one's trying to demean anyone.

You don't seem to go on the IRC very often. I've been there probably close to every day since late last March (yes, I joined the IRC before I joined the forum), often all day (I'm very much a no-lifer and am not hesitant to admit it), and talk to Jesin quite a lot on there.

Still doesn't change the fact that everyone of you-everyone- is blaming cleaverhouse for banning Jesin. This isn't a sign of righteous anger, this isn't a sign of indignant, this is a sign of irrational anger and out-cry against the protection of the forum against a potential hacker.

I first posted in this thread a mock rant, now I'm debating for my life. Seriously, you guys should all know better. Anger and disbelief and shock isn't going to help us now. What we really need is to- SOLVE THE PROBLEM.

Just my thoughts.

I don't think anyone is blaming Claverhouse for the ban. I honestly support that (for the time being, anyway), given the circumstances. My issue is with this assumption that Jesin himself actually did it and with the ludicrous incompetence that is being displayed in defending that assumption.

 

[Dormouse]

I don't think they're blaming Claver, just trying to convince him that the shreds of evidence available aren't enough to permanently ban Jesin forevah-and-evah-and-evah.
And I believe some of the confusion was over the grammatical issue of whether proclaiming 'Jesin is the perpetrator!' indicated guilt on the part of Jesin-the-person or Jesin-the-person's account.

In any case, I'd like to hear Jesin's take on what happened. I can understand removing his administrative powers, or confining him to Siberia, but I do believe he ought to have at least one chance to defend himself.

 

[sagewolf]

Still doesn't change the fact that everyone of you-everyone- is blaming cleaverhouse for banning Jesin.

I never blamed him. I agreed with the decision, in fact, granted on a temporary basis until this is sorted out.

I think what this is is that a long-standing member of the forum in good repute has been blamed for a major incident by one of the admins and banned without any apparent recourse, in people's minds. The phrase "long-standing member in good repute" describes a lot of people on this forum.

Additionally, a forum is really nothing more than an online community which people are free to enter or leave as they please, and it's probably upsetting people to find that the opinions of that community apparently mean nothing in the eyes of an admin. They don't have to be an automatic veto to his actions, but they do deserve respect when articulated respectfully, and someone is doing a lot of insulting our collective opinions and theories.

*Casts Invoke Auburn again*

 

[Luminates]

Still doesn't change the fact that everyone of you-everyone- is blaming cleaverhouse for banning Jesin. This isn't a sign of righteous anger, this isn't a sign of indignant, this is a sign of irrational anger and out-cry against the protection of the forum against a potential hacker.

I first posted in this thread a mock rant, now I'm debating for my life. Seriously, you guys should all know better. Anger and disbelief and shock isn't going to help us now. What we really need is to- SOLVE THE PROBLEM.

Just my thoughts.

Agreed. Aren't most of us here INTP's, isn't this an INTP forum? therefore, should we really let our emotions have the better of us in such a situation? whether the actions taken after this event is through good intentions for the forum, or just a form of anger, Jesin still violated and abused his power over us.

Forgive me if I sound like I don't know whats going on, I haven't read every post on this thread so far, but I do know the basics and can assume the current talk.

as for my rant on banning Jesin, it does seem a bit harsh, but his actions were harsh as well. thous an eye for an eye right?

 

[sagewolf]

You don't seem to go on the IRC very often. I've been there probably close to every day since late last March (yes, I joined the IRC before I joined the forum), often all day, and talk to Jesin quite a lot on there.

You're right, I don't (when it started, I was still using a dial-up equivalent service that cut out a lot and it just wasn't feasible, and I just never got into the IRC after I escaped the hell that was Vodafone's ISP services), and I was unaware of your history there. Sorry.

EDIT: Never mind, I did get ninja'd.

 

[Hawkeye]

Thous an eye for an eye right?

Only if the shoe fits

 

[ashitaria]

Good God (and i'm not a believer) ashitaria.
We're not "blaming" and we're not mobbing him or something. As you might notice at least i (and a few others) am admin too, so this is really just a difference in opinion.

Also, your points make no sense. If you think it is Jesin ,then "hacker" is the wrong word and there is no problem anymore since Jesin is banned from the forum.
above somewhere you (i tihnk it was you) said that if it was a hacker getting a hold on Jesins pw would be something that could happen again. Well, of course. And not just to Jesin, it could happen to me or anyone else too.

Ogion

I never said that Jesin was the hacker. I merely stated the possibility that Jesin was a hacker. When I said, "potential hacker", I was referring to the hacker and Jesin, because both are possibly the hacker.

Though you guys may not be apparently mobbing him, it doesn't change the fact that you guys are in some way or another angry at him. Not exactly rational, yes?

 

[Hawkeye]

I never said that Jesin was the hacker. I merely stated the possibility that Jesin was a hacker. When I said, "potential hacker", I was referring to the hacker and Jesin, because both are possibly the hacker.

Though you guys may not be apparently mobbing him, it doesn't change the fact that you guys are in some way or another angry at him. Not exactly rational, yes?

I'd say anger is too strong a word (except for when Latro types ^^). Disagreement is more accurate.

 

[ashitaria]

ash: would you mind making a thread about what constitutes righteous anger, as well as the "signs" that separate it from other kinds?

I'm not sure I could tell the difference, myself. If you understand more clearly I'd like to read your thoughts on it. Not here, though, because it's off-topic and would just clutter the thread.

Hey hey, I don't think I feel the need to help fellow INTPs understand what is righteous anger and what is not.

 

[fullerene]

Hey hey, I don't think I feel the need to help fellow INTPs understand what is righteous anger and what is not.

because I'm an INTP who should know better, you're not willing to help me understand?

 

[ashitaria]

because I'm an INTP who should know better you're not willing to help bring me up to speed?

*shrugs*

*sigh*

Okay, here we go.

The difference between the three.

Righteous anger- Whereby person experiences rage and anger for a just cause, passionate for things that are undeniably wrong/right, and thus his anger is justified as righteous.

Indignant- feeling, characterized by, or expressing strong displeasure at something considered (not undeniably) unjust, offensive, insulting, or base.

Irrational anger- Self-explanatory.

 

[Wisp]

Augh. I must make this point. A common failing of INTPs, MYSELF INCLUDED is the temptation to let Ti take over to the detriment of all else. Subjectivity is bad. The letter F is not a synonym for unreliable or stupid. I have grown to loathe this sentiment, because it misleads so many other intelligent people. I spent a small stint over at the ENFP forum. One of my most trusted and respected people in my life is an INFP. So I have a point to make.

Stop calling for a perfectly logical discussion. Humans are made of both reason and emotion. A purely logical discussion will *always* fail to describe a human, because it ignores a fundamental part of our being; yes, even yours Claverhouse.

Please. Just because we are intelligent does not mean that emotions are pointless, especially in a case like this; a case where there is so little evidence that it comes down to a judgement of character, or an automatic banhammer by default.

I would postulate that Claverhouse missed most of the history of the INTPf by being absent. I would postulate that he would have a much weaker grasp of both Jesin and FacetiousPersona than people who have been around far longer, such as myself, Sagewolf, LoR and others.

I ask that everyone be reasonable, not logical.

 

[sagewolf]

Ash, What, exactly, in this world, is 'undeniably wrong or right?' That in itself is a major philosophical argument and deserving of a thread in and of itself.

Wisp: Indeed: I would prefer a rational decision, but not an emotionless one. Not one based solely on logic. We're defending a friend, and I for one would rather put my trust in a person than in the server's security software. Deciding to ban a member of this community for one offense, when his previous track record is platinum-covered gold, and nothing in his character suggests he's capable of this is...

It's upsetting. We're people.

 

[flow]

Given all availabe evidence at this time, I think the best course of action would be: Ashitaria stops talking, Latro calms down, Claverhouse admits that Jesin's guilt isn't clear, and an INTP powwow take place immediately. We need to dance this off!

 

[fullerene]

*sigh*

Okay, here we go.

The difference between the three.

Righteous anger- Whereby person experiences rage and anger for a just cause, passionate for things that are undeniably wrong/right, and thus his anger is justified as righteous.

Indignant- feeling, characterized by, or expressing strong displeasure at something considered (not undeniably) unjust, offensive, insulting, or base.

Irrational anger- Self-explanatory.

I see... thank you. Just so long as everyone understands what you meant when you said we were "not demonstrating righteous anger." Now it's clear that the cause must be undeniably just for you to admit that that's true. I'm not going to derail this one any longer with discusssion, though.


I pretty much agree with flow... indian powwow ftw!

 

[sagewolf]

Yep, Flow has had the Official Best Idea of the Day. Woo!

 

[Latro]

Latro calms down

I was only genuinely pissed for a few minutes there. My rage comment was several minutes after it was over.

Good post, though.

 

[Tyria]

Yeah, I think everyone should just take a breather to be honest. Give it a day or two.

Seconded.

I think everyone needs to take a step back and ease off a bit. Getting frustrated and angry with each other isn't going to cut it, and it will only serve to hurt each other.

I think that it's important to hear Jesin's side of the story (through another forum member) before reaching conclusions on the matter. While you can come up with possibilities about what may have happened based on several facts, I think it's better to get the whole story and go from there.

In the meantime, it is prudent to carefully consider what is said of a person's character. Reputation is not something that is easily regained/restored after accusations are made.

Thank you,
CK

 

[ashitaria]

Ashitaria stops talking

Sorry, but I have a right to speak, and just by acknowledging that there was some anger at cleaverhouse by Latro, it's not entirely correct to say that it's not as serious as I said.

And @sagewolf- you're right. Nothing is right or wrong, but it is simply a definition and you have to admit that the anger against cleaverhouse is definitely not righteous anger.

But otherwise, I agree. If we are INTPs, (not being racist here), we should not be like a democracy who argues and does nothing, but actually take action.

 

[flow]

I agree you have the right to speak, however, I'm speaking for what I see to be the best course of action as of right now. And as of right now, your speech is not helping anything. I suggest you stop talking, and start DANCING. The fire is right over there, just dance about it until sunrise and we'll reinstate your speaking rights in the morning. The only members that really need to be speaking about this matter are admins and those with insights on Jesin. You are neither. I am also neither, but I felt compelled to say something in the name of peace. Speaking of which, who wants to hit the peace pipe?

 

[Kuu]

you fucking morons.




it's obvious this is all the work of the pangolin conspiracy... they've been planning it for ages.

 

[Anthile]

Let's see what we've got here. To explain, I will use the term Person X to refer to a possible outsider. This person could be purely hypothetical, multiple real persons or the real Jesin. Understand it as a placeholder.


1. Question: Person X took over the account of the forum user 'Jesin'. How did that happen?

Possible answers:

I.) Person X exploited a weak spot in the forum architecture.

Analysis: Possible, but it requires that Person X has advanced computer technology knowledge and enough malevolence to commit such an act.

II.) Person X got Jesin's password. Three possibilities: Person X got the password through carelessness on Jesin's side. Probably a long time ago.
The real Jesin gave it to him willingly.
Person X guessed it or got it through a Brute Force or Dictionary Attack.

Analysis: Most likely variant. All three possibilities are seen often and well documented.

III.) Person X actually is the real Jesin.

Analysis: The easiest variant. The problem is that such an act would almost completely contradict Jesin's personality as we know it. It baffles me that Claverhouse defenestrates this aspect so easily and laconically comments that people sometimes do such a thing. I say they don't. Especially not if that motive is that weak.


2. Question: What is the motive of Person X?

Possible answers:

I.) Revenge.

Analysis. A likely motive. The staff of intpforum.com is neither especially nice nor patient. Several creatures have been banned in the past and some of them even repeatedly.

II.) Glory.

Analysis: Very unlikely. This forum is way too small and insignificant to provide any glory for the one who was able to hack it.

III.) Boredom.

Analysis: Always possible. Maybe a combination with one or even both of the aforementioned possibilities.

IV.) Real-Jesin-is-Person X motive.

Analysis: What would be the gain for the real Jesin if he did all that?


Pro & Contra

Pro Jesin-is-Person X:

-Most uncomplicated possibility
-Had the opportunity
-No real evidence for the existence of Person X
-IP goes back to Jesin's home computer


Contra Jesin-is-Person X:

-No substantial motive
-Contradicts behavior up to now

 

[sagewolf]

And @sagewolf- you're right. Nothing is right or wrong, but it is simply a definition and you have to admit that the anger against cleaverhouse is definitely not righteous anger.

Objectively speaking, what you say is correct. I'm not willing to say any more lest I derail the thread, though.

it's obvious this is all the work of the pangolin conspiracy... they've been planning it for ages.

Longest. Callback. In history of forum.

Speaking of which, who wants to hit the peace pipe?

Sure. *lights with flamethrower she conveniently happens to have on hand* What?

...


Actually on-topic, thank you Anthile. That's a good summary of what we concretely have so far.

 

[Wisp]

Seriously, Ashitaria. Just stop. Not only was Latro's anger entirely what you'd call 'Righteous Anger', but what you're saying about the situation is painfully uninformed.


(Latro's anger being from an overreaction to his principles (what he considers right) being perceived to have been violated)

But it's a moot point. Because Latro's anger was childish to begin with. So why argue about it? It's over, it's done, it's irrelevant.

As for the uninformed bit, your join date suggests a lack of knowledge of forum history, and your arguments don't make sense.

Hence what flow said.


Also, nice post Anthile. I would like to add that my understanding of it is that the IP went back to Jesin's ISP, not his computer. It would be a lot easier tfor Face to talk his way into a FIOS proxy than a Jesin-proxy.

POW-WOW TIME!!!

 

[TheHmmmm]

I agree you have the right to speak, however, I'm speaking for what I see to be the best course of action as of right now. And as of right now, your speech is not helping anything. I suggest you stop talking, and start DANCING. The fire is right over there, just dance about it until sunrise and we'll reinstate your speaking rights. The only members that really need to be speaking about this matter are admins and those with insights on Jesin. You are neither. I am also neither, but I felt compelled to say something in the name of peace. Speaking of which, who wants to hit the peace pipe?

Peace? The most peaceful thing to do would be for everyone to stop talking altogether and let it work itself out, but I guess you should get your words in right? I mean, telling someone to stop talking really isn't going to create anything but contention. Sounds more like cronyism/elitism in the guise of peace to me. If you want peace, fine. Everyone can stop arguing. If you want to give your opinion and have it received, fine. Ashitaria deserves that respect as well then. You can't have it both ways, sir. Consider what impact your words have made and tell me that you saw no better way to phrase your view. And what's most troubling is that you didn't even offer an explanation until the other person had to defend their right to speak, which is kind of sad.

Since everyone is expressing their views on the matter, ashitaria should be able to express his/hers freely, especially since he/she's not really the one being belligerent about it here.

I'll admit to having little relation to Jesin, which came only through a connection to Auburn, and he didn't seem likely to do this. However. given the circumstances, I agree with the course of action taken by the admins if only to prevent further damage to the forum.

 

[Luminates]

Well if anything was learned from this event, I can know get a decent idea as to the reaction given off by INTP's when there together under heavy circumstances or just events that would be known as major. I well explain this thread in one simple pic----->

Aren't we arguing a bit too much for such a simple handed matter? It's not like any actual damage (other than some people's reputation) was damaged or severed in any way.

 

[Xel]

I wondered what was going on when I stumbled into a forum with only a few unusual topics. The topic "You" was pretty funny. Hope it wasn't actually Jesin.

 

[Dormouse]

'Cleaverhouse'.

I have no objection to peace and dancing. Let the pow-wow begin.

 

[flow]

Oh for the love of science. I've incited anger in one member (who was already borderline angry), and sparked up agreement in everyone else. A POWWOW is the best course of action. Am I wrong?!

 

[Wisp]

Here's a longer callback, Sage. I spammed the forum into life with a guy known as Cabbo Pearimo. Back when the forum had posts per week. Or month. Or less.



Also, FlashChat.

 

[TheHmmmm]

Oh for the love of science. I've incited anger in one member (who was already borderline angry), and sparked up agreement in everyone else. A POWWOW is the best course of action. Am I wrong?!

Rats, I fixed my post a little too late.

 

[Dormouse]

Am I wrong?!

Nah, it was about time someone derailed this thread.

 

[Firehazard159]

This is a very hot topic! Are we all wearing black now and looking all gothic?

Also; I'm so not a fantasy creature. Well, except for those of you who fantasize about me

 

[Latro]

I concur with the pow-wow idea.

Also, Anthile, good post, but...what did you mean by "defenestrates"? That word means "throws out a window", is that actually what you meant?

 

[Luminates]

so then....... POWWOW time!!!

 

[Anthile]

Also, Anthile, good post, but...what did you mean by "defenestrates"? That word means "throws out a window", is that actually what you meant?

Yes.


Additionally, I forgot one method to gain a password on a forum. Considering that one can request a new password via email, someone could either intercept this email or access Jesin's email account. How likely that is, I cannot tell. I never observed this method myself. Emails are generally as safe as postcards.

 

[flow]

Okay, so I think we should treat our forum like a republic, let all the admins vote as to the best course of action for how to deal with the accused (Jesin). I'm convinced that Face is the true culprit, but how they managed to hack Jesin's account (and why they chose Jesin) is unclear. I guess in order to move forward we need to question Jesin.

 

[Ogion]

It might not be obvious, but Jesin has been in irc today and yesterday, at the usual times.

Ogion

 

[Claverhouse]

Especially not if that motive is that weak.

Good analysis. However, suppose he thought he was protecting the forum ?



Admins do go mad: it's almost an industrial disease. I've seen it happen elsewhere. They begin to think they are the true soul of the forum, and that they are indispensible, and that they must take over the forum until they become little gods looking down upon the petty folk.


And I'm mindful of the fact that the Sacred Domain Name is still in the hands of a thief, thanks to the slow stately progress of American business people. The theory is that it was stolen in order to protect the forum. Face has been blamed for that, his shoulders seem wide enough to be beaten for anything that goes wrong on this place, alternating with XIII. But if not him, who ?





Claverhouse

 

[ashitaria]

*shrugs*

Oh well. Since the matter seems to be absolved and over, I'm not going to say anything.

I might POW-WOW

 

[sagewolf]

Also, Anthile, good post, but...what did you mean by "defenestrates"? That word means "throws out a window", is that actually what you meant?

Yes.

Defenestrations for all!

Flow: They're probably doing that anyway, just not publicly.

 

[BigApplePi]

Let's see what we've got here. To explain, I will use the term Person X to refer to a possible outsider. This person could be purely hypothetical, multiple real persons or the real Jesin. Understand it as a placeholder.


1. Question: Person X took over the account of the forum user 'Jesin'. How did that happen?

Possible answers:

I.) Person X exploited a weak spot in the forum architecture.

Analysis: Possible, but it requires that Person X has advanced computer technology knowledge and enough malevolence to commit such an act.

II.) Person X got Jesin's password. Three possibilities: Person X got the password through carelessness on Jesin's side. Probably a long time ago.
The real Jesin gave it to him willingly.
Person X guessed it or got it through a Brute Force or Dictionary Attack.

Analysis: Most likely variant. All three possibilities are seen often and well documented.

III.) Person X actually is the real Jesin.

Analysis: The easiest variant. The problem is that such an act would almost completely contradict Jesin's personality as we know it. It baffles me that Claverhouse defenestrates this aspect so easily and laconically comments that people sometimes do such a thing. I say they don't. Especially not if that motive is that weak.


2. Question: What is the motive of Person X?

Possible answers:

I.) Revenge.

Analysis. A likely motive. The staff of intpforum.com is neither especially nice nor patient. Several creatures have been banned in the past and some of them even repeatedly.

II.) Glory.

Analysis: Very unlikely. This forum is way too small and insignificant to provide any glory for the one who was able to hack it.

III.) Boredom.

Analysis: Always possible. Maybe a combination with one or even both of the aforementioned possibilities.

IV.) Real-Jesin-is-Person X motive.

Analysis: What would be the gain for the real Jesin if he did all that?


Pro & Contra

Pro Jesin-is-Person X:

-Most uncomplicated possibility
-Had the opportunity
-No real evidence for the existence of Person X
-IP goes back to Jesin's home computer


Contra Jesin-is-Person X:

-No substantial motive
-Contradicts behavior up to now

Anthile. Nice analytical work. I want to add to your

What is the motive of Person X?

V.) Person X's perpetration purpose was petulance for all the gossip he knew this thread would put forth about him/her after he done the deed.