Going Rogue : Report on The Incident of the 31st of January

[Zero]

I saw this happening the other night.

Didn't care, but now, with it all sorted out, it's fucking hilarious. Amusing and pathetic at the same time.

I was hoping he'd actually eradicate some of the forum content so we could start over new.

I ended up pre-occupied with my AcerAspireOne and trying to get Ubuntu's Netbook remix on it (which has not happened, it seems the computer hard-drive might be fried). Then reading about the iPad. It was a night of fail.

I love when the powerful go mad, it's so very arousing.

I actually agree with this.

But considering this was simply abuse of admin powers (as it would seem), it wasn't a hack/crack.

It's like that episode of "The Office" where they're trying to "do" Parkour.

 

[Nirmohi]

I joined in just now.... and I get to see this....!!!

 

[Luminates]

This is the first time I have witnessed somebody completely taking over a forum, though it didn't seem like he did anything. If he was an admin before hand, then what did he specifically accomplish? Causing 12 hours ?
If anything, i'm glad the forum was able to be fully restored, and well...... justice always prevails, well almost always

I joined in just now.... and I get to see this....!!!

LOL, could be a sign of future reference.

 

[BigApplePi]

This is the first time I have witnessed somebody completely taking over a forum, though it didn't seem like he did anything. If he was an admin before hand, then what did he specifically accomplish? Causing 12 hours ?
If anything, i'm glad the forum was able to be fully restored, and well...... justice always prevails, well almost always


LOL, could be a sign of future reference.

Claverhouse quote: "some parts of the structure were permanently damaged by the installation of the back-up --- this was unavoidable". See post of Claverhouse's time Today, 11:38 AM, EST

 

[TheHmmmm]

Damn.

I've spoken to Jesin a few times, and I gotta say I'd never anticipate this. All I got lately was that he was very whimsical about his talks of absurdism and such.

So...can I go to the forum yet? Please?

EDIT: NVM, I thought that I was going to be infinitely redirected here. Will change my pass I guess.

 

[fullerene]

yeah... likewise, I would be very surprised if Jesin was somehow actually doing this on purpose. There's just no way. He's been slightly strange recently... but not that strange, and certainly not "I want to destroy the forum" strange.

I do understand the temp-ban until it's sorted, though. Sagewolf made a good point, when she said you guys (the administration) are the ones who'd have to clean it up if it happened again... so better safe than sorry I guess. It'd be a good idea to find out the vulnerability that let said hacker do this before you do anything like that... because if it was a hack that went through jesin's personal computer, it could very easily happen again until it's all cleaned up.

For what it's worth, I've also talked to RMustella... months and months (probably years, by now?) ago, and he is who he says he is. If at all possible (once you make sure his computer isn't part of what was infected that let the person get access, or this can't happen again), please do let him back. I know this place means a lot to him, and if I were in his position I'd be extremely upset about it right now.

 

[Tyria]

I'm quite surprised that something like this has happened. I certainly didn't expect an admin account to be involved either.

Are there any measures that could be taken to prevent something like this from happening in the future?

 

[dents]

So now that there is one less admin, where do I send my application?

 

[Mello]

Face is silly. Too bad I missed it all.

 

[Claverhouse]

I'm quite surprised that something like this has happened. I certainly didn't expect an admin account to be involved either.

It is the fact of it being an admin account that makes this serious. Hacking, though rare, can be lived with; if the forum is betrayed from within there is no defence. And this could literally have killed the forum. Suppose the attacker had been after private information for blackmail of some member ? Suppose there had been no recent back-up and that months of posts and PMs were lost ? The forum would die off simply because nothing was up-to-date and members rightly drifted away. It is only due to the hosting company that the restoration was a success. Suppose he had screwed the server so badly that the hosting company decided not to help, but demanded compensation ?


It has been suggested that it is invidious to have named the admin account responsible; but merely to announce that an unnamed admin had destroyed the forum without giving details would not increase confidence and would have been a cover-up. Particularly since it was Jesin's account alone that took down the forum, and that the whole damn world yesterday could see his name alone on the false forum.

To protect Jesin and assume his innocence, instead of assuming his guilt, would be merely an example of the old-boy network protecting it's own; whereby those in power or in friendship will always let the big offenders off with a pass, but come down hard on expendable small fry. Simply because they like the person. There is never room for sentimentality.

I hope Jesin is innocent, and that he can return as member if he wants: but to accuse Face --- if Face confessed a thousand times --- without proof, when it was not Face's name on the account would be a greater injustice than naming the administrator responsible. Face is not a member and owes us nothing, if he hacks us that is to him game: an administrator owes his members care in safeguarding his password.

Are there any measures that could be taken to prevent something like this from happening in the future?

No chance. Any and every forum is at the mercy of each administrator because of their necessary powers.






This applies to EzBoards, but the principles are the same everywhere:


What do I do if my community has been hacked?


In order to hack your community, someone has to use a moderator or administrator account. Board hacking always involves account hacking.

Often a hacker will revoke the other administators' powers or ban them, ensuring that only an account he controls has administrative powers. EzOps (board creators) cannot be permanently banned from their own boards. An ezOp should always be able to go into a board’s Control Center and unban herself. If any other admin or mod account is hacked and used to damage your board, you should notify the ezOp as quickly as possible so they can come back and take control. The ezOp needs to step in and immediately remove admin and mod powers from all other users until it is determined which ID has been used to make unwanted changes to the board (the real owner may not be to blame, but someone may have used their account without them knowing). Then, the ezOp can temporarily lock down the board (apply MBA or password-protect the forums) until the board has been restored to its original state (or as close to it as possible).

...


True hacking is very rare. Many people experience bugs or other routine problems and quickly assume they were hacked. If you simply can’t log in, do not jump to the conclusion that you were hacked. There are many possible causes of login problems. The only real proof that you were hacked is if someone posts with your account, performs an administrative or moderator action with your account, sends an inbox message with your account, or edits your profile.

The majority of board destruction is not done by strangers or hackers, but by rogue admins who got into a disagreement with the board owner. A board is only as secure as its least-trustworthy admin or mod. Don’t give people power over your board if you don’t know them well and trust them completely. Be careful of people you don’t know well who offer to help with the customization of your board and ask for administrative powers. Make sure your mods and admins keep their accounts and passwords secure. If an authorized admin gets angry and deletes all your forums, you have not been hacked! After all, you voluntarily gave that person the ability to destroy your board.




Claverhouse

 

[Wisp]

Well. This is a doozy. I've returned from my sabbatical from the forum to say a few words. I've been a part of this forum for a long, long time. I've been absent for quite a while now, but I remember when Jesin joined. I've met up with Jesin in Real Life (tm). I've seen quite a bit of his writing. And he didn't do it. Unless Jesin is an absolutely phenomenal actor, he couldn't have. One of Jesin's personal weaknesses that I have observed is that his writing never changes. He is terrible at changing the way he writes, at shaping his dialogue to suit the audience. I have had conversations in private with Jesin on this exact specific topic. He is distinctive. I know someone else, however, who is indistinct by design. One might even say he is facetious.

Face singlehandedly manipulated the forum against itself in the days when Ragnar was gone. I was witness to some of the conversations that went between Ogion, LoR and Jesin when dealing with that debacle. And I have to say, the entire setup was brilliant. In about a month, face was able to line his behaviour on the line of propriety of trolldom. He split the forum into two parts. It was beautiful to be honest, to witness such a gifted manipulator. I've had a few private conversations with favce of my own, and I still believe he is a manipulator. And he's unstable. He acts on whims. If he's in a funk, I believe that he would hack the forum without a second thought and frame Jesin just to stir things up. Face deliberately framed Jesin because he's the perfect target. Likable enough that people would defend him, but with enough evidence for the admins to ban him. I believe it was face. These are personal convictions, I have no proof, other than lots of lurking, and a long memory.

Thank you for reading.

~Wisp

 

[Cegorach]

It has been suggested that it is invidious to have named the admin account responsible; but merely to announce that an unnamed admin had destroyed the forum without giving details would not increase confidence and would have been a cover-up. Particularly since it was Jesin's account alone that took down the forum, and that the whole damn world yesterday could see his name alone on the false forum.

This was not suggested, actually.

What was suggested was that we don't prematurely make a thread/story full of accusations towards Jesin, something that will cause many members who are unaware of the situation to blame him.
Instead creating a thread stating that he has been banned temporarily pending further inquiry and investigation.

Reread what was being suggested.

 

[Dormouse]

Huh, I actually find this entire situation quite fascinating. I'm quite upset I didn't have any time this past weekend to watch these events unfold.

In any case, it feels good to have lived through a bit of what will surely become forum history. And I'm glad I'm not in a position to be making tough decisions. I'm quite new here so I have no opinion on whether Jesin is the culprit or not, and Face has seemed anything but real, more a myth invoked during troubled times than anything.

 

[BigApplePi]

It is the fact of it being an admin account that makes this serious. Hacking, though rare, can be lived with; if the forum is betrayed from within there is no defence. And this could literally have killed the forum. Suppose the attacker had been after private information for blackmail of some member ? Suppose there had been no recent back-up and that months of posts and PMs were lost ? The forum would die off simply because nothing was up-to-date and members rightly drifted away. It is only due to the hosting company that the restoration was a success. Suppose he had screwed the server so badly that the hosting company decided not to help, but demanded compensation ?


It has been suggested that it is invidious to have named the admin account responsible; but merely to announce that an unnamed admin had destroyed the forum without giving details would not increase confidence and would have been a cover-up. Particularly since it was Jesin's account alone that took down the forum, and that the whole damn world yesterday could see his name alone on the false forum.

To protect Jesin and assume his innocence, instead of assuming his guilt, would be merely an example of the old-boy network protecting it's own; whereby those in power or in friendship will always let the big offenders off with a pass, but come down hard on expendable small fry. Simply because they like the person. There is never room for sentimentality.

I hope Jesin is innocent, and that he can return as member if he wants: but to accuse Face --- if Face confessed a thousand times --- without proof, when it was not Face's name on the account would be a greater injustice than naming the administrator responsible. Face is not a member and owes us nothing, if he hacks us that is to him game: an administrator owes his members care in safeguarding his password.




No chance. Any and every forum is at the mercy of each administrator because of their necessary powers.






This applies to EzBoards, but the principles are the same everywhere:


What do I do if my community has been hacked?




In order to hack your community, someone has to use a moderator or administrator account. Board hacking always involves account hacking.

Often a hacker will revoke the other administators' powers or ban them, ensuring that only an account he controls has administrative powers. EzOps (board creators) cannot be permanently banned from their own boards. An ezOp should always be able to go into a board’s Control Center and unban herself. If any other admin or mod account is hacked and used to damage your board, you should notify the ezOp as quickly as possible so they can come back and take control. The ezOp needs to step in and immediately remove admin and mod powers from all other users until it is determined which ID has been used to make unwanted changes to the board (the real owner may not be to blame, but someone may have used their account without them knowing). Then, the ezOp can temporarily lock down the board (apply MBA or password-protect the forums) until the board has been restored to its original state (or as close to it as possible).

...


True hacking is very rare. Many people experience bugs or other routine problems and quickly assume they were hacked. If you simply can’t log in, do not jump to the conclusion that you were hacked. There are many possible causes of login problems. The only real proof that you were hacked is if someone posts with your account, performs an administrative or moderator action with your account, sends an inbox message with your account, or edits your profile.

The majority of board destruction is not done by strangers or hackers, but by rogue admins who got into a disagreement with the board owner. A board is only as secure as its least-trustworthy admin or mod. Don’t give people power over your board if you don’t know them well and trust them completely. Be careful of people you don’t know well who offer to help with the customization of your board and ask for administrative powers. Make sure your mods and admins keep their accounts and passwords secure. If an authorized admin gets angry and deletes all your forums, you have not been hacked! After all, you voluntarily gave that person the ability to destroy your board.




Claverhouse

I would be cautious about looking for premeditated causes and effects by people we know. There is a difference between a deliberate invasion of a website and a party randomly taking advantage of an administrator leaving his computer exposed followed by a perpetrator thinking: "Oh I will foul up as much as I can before they catch me."

Do we know which in this case for sure?

In any case precautions against this happening must be taken. Some may treat this as a fun website but others have worked on hard on developing themes that can be returned to in the archives. Do we want to see the history here damaged or worse?

 

[Claverhouse]

What was suggested was that we don't prematurely make a thread/story full of accusations towards Jesin...

Um... Let's see. Jesin, or if you will Jesin's mindless account, began dismantling the forum; Jesin locked out the admins; Jesin replied to PMs; Jesin's triumph was to sit alone by the rivers of Babylon in the wreckage of the forum and weep, taunting the administration and members.



Now, this may not have been the Real Jesin, it may have been an imposter, the False Jesin, nonetheless these are not accusations: they are a factual description of exactly what happened.




Claverhouse

 

[Claverhouse]

I would be cautious about looking for premeditated causes and effects by people we know. There is a difference between a deliberate invasion of a website and a party randomly taking advantage of an administrator leaving his computer exposed followed by a perpetrator thinking: "Oh I will foul up as much as I can before they catch me."

Do we know which in this case for sure?

It's pretty certain that this was meticulously planned ahead, as the perpetrator himself boasted. No-one outside the site will have heard of it, nor have any reason to target us. It's also difficult to see how exactly an administrator could randomly leave his password out en clair.




Claverhouse

 

[Cegorach]

Um... Let's see. Jesin, or if you will Jesin's mindless account, began dismantling the forum; Jesin locked out the admins; Jesin replied to PMs; Jesin's triumph was to sit alone by the rivers of Babylon in the wreckage of the forum and weep, taunting the administration and members.



Now, this may not have been the Real Jesin, it may have been an imposter, the False Jesin, nonetheless these are not accusations: they are a factual description of exactly what happened.




Claverhouse

Yeah... but we also explained to you that if you keep referring to the Jesin account as 'Jesin' that you're going to cause confusion, people will assume you mean the regular user Jesin considering that we know him by no other name.

It's pretty clear that several posters in this thread have been mislead by this.

 

[sagewolf]

Claverhouse: Naming Face may be as much or more an injustice as naming Jesin: this does not mean you have to do either one or the other. You did not need to say an unnamed administrator was responsible; you did not have to commit to saying anyone was responsible so early after the attack. You could have stuck to the bare facts, which are that the forum was the target of a malicious attack, that Jesin's account (Jesin's account being a separate entity to Jesin himself) was used in the attack, and that he has been temporarily banned pending investigation of the exact details of the attack, with the possiblilty of the ban becoming permanent if it turns out he was indeed responsible. Would that have been so hard?

I agree that one of the duties an admin has to a forum is to keep their account secure, which is why I fully understand why Jesin has been stripped of his administrative status. Pending investigation, I do think the ban is the best way to protect the forum, but unless you come up with hard evidence that Jesin was the culprit, please refrain from naming him the instigator outright. If he is innocent, it's bad enough for him that it was his account that was used, without an administrator who has a duty to the forum and its members accusing him before the full story is known.

Thank you.

(On a completely unrelated note): Yay it's Wisp!

 

[Wisp]

I hope Jesin is innocent, and that he can return as member if he wants: but to accuse Face --- if Face confessed a thousand times --- without proof, when it was not Face's name on the account would be a greater injustice than naming the administrator responsible. Face is not a member and owes us nothing, if he hacks us that is to him game: an administrator owes his members care in safeguarding his password.

Mmm. So Jesin carelessly left his password sitting out in the middle of nowhere? I don't believe that for a second. If anything, I would imagine that it';s an exploit in the architecture of the server. This forum has taught me a lot. And, among the things it has contributed to my understanding of the world, is that subjective evidence is worth something. A lot of something. Humans are creatures of reason and of character. And I don't believe that Jesin is CAPABLE of pulling off the shit that happened. Over a year of knowing the guy, and his writing style has not become any less stagnant than the day he first joined. Okay, it has a little, but the point remains. The point is not that face confessed. The point is that it makes sense. The point is that the people involved have characters that should be taken into account.

~Wisp

Oh, and, hi sage! Oh, and, nice post, sage. I agree completely.

 

[Claverhouse]

Yeah... but we also explained to you that if you keep referring to the Jesin account as 'Jesin' that you're going to cause confusion, people will assume you mean the regular user Jesin considering that we know him by no other name.

I think that's a fair assumption considering that until shown to be innocent, I have to expect that the user of an account is in fact the person in control of that account. Them being responsible for the account's security an' all.



Claverhouse



Coming to Windows 8: My Passwords. Simply put all your passwords together with the matching sites in one plain text file that's always open upon your desktop. Never be stuck for the right password again !

 

[Claverhouse]

If anything, I would imagine that it';s an exploit in the architecture of the server.

What exploit would that be ? It's easy to suppose that hosts run insecure servers, but there hasn't been the faintest reason to suggest that URLJet, who specialize in vBulletin installations have not maintained excellent security.

Sometimes vBulletin itself has flaws that can be exploited, but there's no evidence at all that this was the case here. And someone offering to pay people to discover his own vBulletin admin password admits that this is 'an almost impossible task'.

And I don't believe that Jesin is CAPABLE of pulling off the shit that happened. Over a year of knowing the guy, and his writing style has not become any less stagnant than the day he first joined.

I'd prefer a less insulting method of defending Jesin. ( Or 'Jesin's Account' )




Claverhouse

 

[sagewolf]

Coming to Windows 8: My Passwords. Simply put all your passwords together with the matching sites in one plain text file that's always open upon your desktop. Never be stuck for the right password again !

There's also the humble index card, but why bother? Internet Explorer (and almost every other modern browser) has the security advent of AutoComplete, which will fill in forms for you, like usernames and passwords on forums, and turning it off is a lot less obvious of a thing to do than just not clicking the tickbox that says "remember me" next to the username and password fields when you log in. (And an admin probably shouldn't have that ticked.) The only reason my AutoComplete is off is because it "helped" me on collegeboard.com one day by suggesting my frigging SSN to me in a form. Identity theft, anyone? Windows 7, helping criminals everywhere!

Exit website, turn off AutoComplete, delete cookies, empty cache, restart computer.

*sigh* There are also ways to log keystrokes or some such, or so the FAFSA form told me, as I inputted my financial information. And they-- a government website, with all the capability for security that implies-- were worried about data theft? A determined hacker could steal a forum admin's account with no effort, compared to that. (Arguably no reward, too, but...)

 

[Wisp]

Claver. Forums are not impenetrable. In a perfect world, yes, it would be impossible for someone to ninja Jes's account without his password. Not so anymore. There are so many complex technologies maintained by so many different people, it is nearly impossible for there to be no security holes. Especially in a public forum architecture, which has many forums using the same architecture. I bet I could find security holes. Especially if I followed up with a hunt for what Jesin exclaimed about in the IRC snippet from Rmus, XSS bugs. There is no such thing as perfect security. And there is no reason for justice to overcome sense. I believe that it would be posible to hack the forum WITHOUT Jes's password.

EDIT: A very quick google search found this as the first result.

http://securityreason.com/securityalert/3229

This stuff happens and is fixed rapidly, all the time. It happens, it exists, and probably did happen.

 

[Latro]

I think that's a fair assumption considering that until shown to be innocent, I have to expect that the user of an account is in fact the person in control of that account. Them being responsible for the account's security an' all.

OK, why? That makes absolutely no sense. Even from the perspective of justice, in discussion of what happened you should only convey the facts as you possess them. Ban the account, sure, that makes perfect sense to me because of the distinct possibility that it actually was him. But there is no benefit in speaking in terms of "Jesin did x" when you really lack evidence to conclude anything at all.

I also think you are being absolutely absurd in the vein of "if Jesin didn't do it himself, then he failed to keep his account secure." Do you seriously think that? Because that's absurd to the point that it's basically just bullshit. It's much, much more likely that someone attempted to hack all the admin accounts at once (more efficient that way) and just happened to succeed with Jesin's first by sheer chance.

Or even more likely than that, that the forum architecture got exploited (and as Wisp has indicated, doing this is a fairly trivial task; you can ask 4chan's /g/ board and you'd probably get dozens of tricks). After that the hacker could just choose an account--perhaps simply at random, or perhaps for some particular personal reason. In any case, the assumption--which, unlike the assumption that Jesin attacked the forum, seems to have no basis whatsoever--that Jesin's password was improperly secured is ridiculous. IMO that is really just you trying to assign blame in the most obvious way available so that you don't have to grapple with this mess anymore.

 

[fullerene]

To protect Jesin and assume his innocence, instead of assuming his guilt, would be merely an example of the old-boy network protecting it's own; whereby those in power or in friendship will always let the big offenders off with a pass, but come down hard on expendable small fry. Simply because they like the person. There is never room for sentimentality.

I so strongly disagree with this. If you could characterize the alternative argument as "the old-boy network protecting it's own," I would characterize your argument as "what have you done for me lately?" imagine a world where technology existed to the point where one person could look/sound like another person 100%, and it were widely known and available to the public. If your wife of 4 years suddenly stole several hundred dollars and ran away (when she was supposed to be at work), only to return from work at the usual time and be completely herself again... would you throw out your sentiments just because it was her face and her body you saw running away with the money she grabbed?

In essence that's similar to what happened. He came back when he was expected to, "suddenly" began acting exactly like we expected him to again. Online, it's quite easy to steal someone else's name and face. Don't get me wrong... there's plenty of room for argument over whether he was irresponsible in securing his password, since as an admin it was a big risk to use an easy-to-crack one, but that only goes so far as "maybe this guy shouldn't be an admin anymore."

Frankly, I think we do "responsibility for one's actions" an extreme disservice if we only use it to hold people to the things they've done wrong, but immediately forget their long-standing good character.



Also (though I think I may have been one of those people misunderstanding you, like cegaroach said): couldn't this all be cleared up if the real jesin just made a new account with a different name? That is, if you're truly separating the "jesin" who probably destroyed everything with the "jesin" who was in control of that account until very recently. Then you won't have the problem with people confusing the two, and wondering why "that guy who ruined the place" is still around.



Also as a side note: I was there when Face was banned for good, talking in flashchat to Jesin, face, and several other people. Jesin was the person who finally banned face, in the end, so if you believe face's confession (which, tbh, hearing about it I find it extremely unbelievable. I wouldn't have given it a moment's credibility but for the other members here saying that the timing was too perfect for it not to have been him), Jesin is a natural target because he's the mod/admin who finally got rid of all the bastard's spare accounts.

 

[sagewolf]

...This discussion should probably be in the "Crime and Punishment" section, not a thread that's supposed to be a straightforward report. Maybe some nice mod or admin would split the thread, move the relevant posts to the new thread, and insert a note in the OP saying that a detailled (and subjective, whereas this thread should be as close to objective as is possible) discussion of Jesin's culpability is in said new thread, with a hyperlink?

It's not quite off-topic, but it deserves its own thread, I think.

 

[Wisp]

Hm. But when you move the discussion to a place of its own, it's license for the discussion to be ignored. Why do that? Clav can just edit the OP with new information as time goes by, and the discussion can keep on rolling.

 

[Hawkeye]

Or just leave it where it is until it calms down?

 

[Claverhouse]

That makes absolutely no sense. Even from the perspective of justice, in discussion of what happened you should only convey the facts as you possess them.

I did. I have no reason to believe it wasn't Jesin until some reason comes along which absolves him.

Arguments that he was incapable because people know and respect him and he just wouldn't do that are sentiment, not evidence. We are mostly capable of doing things people don't suspect we could.

I also think you are being absolutely absurd in the vein of "if Jesin didn't do it himself, then he failed to keep his account secure." Do you seriously think that? Because that's absurd to the point that it's basically just bullshit.

An admin who lets his account be taken is as culpable as one who is malicious. To leave a bank vault open may be an accident but the effect is the same as robbing it oneself.

In any case, the idea that Jesin's password was improperly secured is ridiculous, and IMO is really just you trying to assign blame in the most obvious way available so that you don't have to grapple with this mess anymore.

Not really. The event is over. The only fallout is that of people coming here and arguing that I should not blame the account-holder, but the server, or vbulletin, or Face, or someone unnamed.




Claverhouse

 

[Claverhouse]

Also (though I think I may have been one of those people misunderstanding you, like cegaroach said): couldn't this all be cleared up if the real jesin just made a new account with a different name? That is, if you're truly separating the "jesin" who probably destroyed everything with the "jesin" who was in control of that account until very recently. Then you won't have the problem with people confusing the two, and wondering why "that guy who ruined the place" is still around.

This will be possible, although for now his IP is banned, for what that's worth in the Age of Proxies; but before either ban is lifted I would prefer that he contact us giving his side of the story through a trusted member.




Claverhouse

 

[Wisp]

So. I'm gonna take away the following things from this, correct me if I'm wrong, Claver.

1) Guilty until proven innocent.

2)Jesin's password was obviously left around, and there's absolutely NO way it could have been bypassed or stolen.

3)You don't careabout this discussion, because you've made up your mind, being infallible.

I call BS on the first two, and although the third I think is true, it's still the entire wrong attitude to take on a board where discussion is so key to public identity.

 

[Latro]

I did. I have no reason to believe it wasn't Jesin until some reason comes along which absolves him.

Guilty until proven innocent, eh? You have no real evidence to draw any conclusions at all. You have enough evidence to say that there is a reasonable suspicion that Jesin did this; the proper response to this is to ban the account and then state the evidence that you have as you have it. Your phrasing makes it sound like you have enough evidence to say that Jesin did it, which has no resemblance to the evidence that you actually have.

Arguments that he was incapable because people know and respect him and he just wouldn't do that are sentiment, not evidence. We are mostly capable of doing things people don't suspect we could.

That's not relevant to any of my points.

An admin who lets his account be taken is as culpable as one who is malicious. To leave a bank vault open may be an accident but the effect is the same as robbing it oneself.

WTF? Did you just COMPLETELY miss my point? My point was that this assumption that his account was just wide open for the taking is RIDICULOUS. It is FAR more likely that something considerably more sophisticated, such as attacking multiple accounts at once or directly exploiting the architecture, was used. The assumption that the password itself got hacked is ridiculous, AS YOUR OWN ARGUMENT ABOVE (about the guy paying people to find his pw) INDICATES.

Not really. The event is over. The only fallout is that of people coming here and arguing that I should not blame the account-holder, but the server, or vbulletin, or Face, or someone unnamed.

Which is precisely the mess to which I was referring.

 

[sagewolf]

Claverhouse: Why can't you just blame nobody until the report arrives? Take whatever measures you need to take to protect the integrity of the forum, then say that we're awaiting a more detailled report on the incident, and final decisions and judgements will be passed at that point.


...And can't we all be calm without resorting to ALL CAPS?

 

[Claverhouse]

...This discussion should probably be in the "Crime and Punishment" section, not a thread that's supposed to be a straightforward report.

No, it is for now a sticky in General because it is an announcement detailing the puzzling events of that day to members who were mystified at what was going on and deserve explanation.


I suppose you realise that some of them may not return ? Thinking that was the forum gone, baby, gone.


Some members emailed me asking if they had been banned.

Maybe some nice mod or admin would split the thread, move the relevant posts to the new thread, and insert a note in the OP saying that a detailled (and subjective, whereas this thread should be as close to objective as is possible) discussion of Jesin's culpability is in said new thread, with a hyperlink?

I would consider that a mistake.

The thread may go there in a week or so, but by then nearly everyone will have forgotten the affair. Forums have terribly short memories.




Claverhouse

 

[Claverhouse]

The assumption that the password itself got hacked is ridiculous, AS YOUR OWN ARGUMENT ABOVE (about the guy paying people to find his pw) INDICATES.

You rather misunderstood that one. The point being that he was paying someone to steal the password from the forum, not from himself; and this hacking is on his opinion almost impossible.

I too do not believe the password was hacked. Leaving carelessness the explanation, not hacking.




Claverhouse

 

[RMustela]

Speaking of vulnerabilities... this site seems to be running an old version of VBulletin, according to the version number at the bottom. (Wikipedia says that current stable is 4.0.1, and that the version 3 series was EOLed late last year.) Presumably, whoever's paying for the site (Ragnar?) should update it or have his hosting company's techs do so.

Does this exploit sound familiar?

@Claverhouse, w.r.t. Jesin returning: That might be hard to do if he's IP banned. I don't know if his house IP is still banned - but our school's internal proxy (for filtering out the net's naughty bits) is.

@Lightspeed: We're both on DC-area FiOS, yes.

 

[Claverhouse]

Claverhouse: Why can't you just blame nobody until the report arrives?

What report ?


Sadly, the League to stop Forum Hacking and Crime on the Internet collapsed a few years back. It was too much for one man.




Claverhouse

 

[ashitaria]

I know that I shouldn't be talking, since I don't know Jesin very well and that I have been told to shut up by a fellow member and I probably should continue to shut up, but I see two reasons why this is getting ridiculous.

1) This is turning into a debate between an administrator and members, whereby Cleaverhouse (admin) is not to be blamed for this. It is evident that Jesin did hack the site, though it might not have been him, it was his account that did it. Getting Jesin to become a administrator again isn't going to be possible because:
1) The hacker (assuming) will be able to get his password again. If he has used a hacking program and Jesin changes his password, he can still get the password, since if he has already found a way once, he can find another way twice.
2) There is no protection against administrators. From what I have read, Jesin may not have been guilty of hacking, but this is a risk that no one wants to take.

2) In many cases of court cases, criminals were excused because people thought them incapable of doing something. I know I know, Jesin may not have been such a person, but there is still a very remote chance. Can't deny that. Also, it is very possible that passwords can be gleaned just by knowing the user-name. I remember playing this MMORPG called Bots where hackers could figure out the password just by figuring out the user-name. Caused major chaos, I got hacked, and I left. Not pretty. In all due case, I think that it is fine to let Jesin be a member again, but not in a position with power until everything calms down.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Wisp]

I too do not believe the password was hacked. Leaving carelessness the explanation, not hacking.

No, no, NO! Forums are hacked all the time, ESPECIALLY if they use a common architecture and are out of date like this one!

 

[sagewolf]

^Fair enough; I suppose it is a big enough event that it deserves a place in the General forum...

I suppose you realise that some of them may not return ? Thinking that was the forum gone, baby, gone.

Yes, but if you're going to give up on a forum before even a day of downtime has passed, that I'd posit that the forum probably didn't mean much to you in the first place. When I saw the madhouse, I assumed there had been a glitch, wondered what the hell was going on, then decided that the admins would deal with it (as only they had the authority and permissions to do so), that the forum would be restored from either a backup or the miracle that is Google caching, and all would be well in a day or so.I really wonder who wouldn't automatically assume that any forum would have a backup system in place, what with servers not being infallible.

The thread may go there in a week or so, but by then nearly everyone will have forgotten the affair. Forums have terribly short memories.

You seem to be mistaking us for a high school, sir. We may not have much in the way to contribute to this specific event as discussion and analysis go in a week's time, but that doesn't mean we'll have forgotten it.

 

[Latro]

Seriously, Claverhouse, you're demonstrating some extremely fundamental technical incompetence in this thread. A little bit ago it frustrated me to the point that I was shaking from rage, as false belief in one's abilities (or any other aspect of oneself) despite evidence to the contrary is one of a small set of things which I would go so far as to say that I despise.

 

[Claverhouse]

Speaking of vulnerabilities... this site seems to be running an old version of VBulletin, according to the version number at the bottom. (Wikipedia says that current stable is 4.0.1.) Presumably, whoever's paying for the site (Ragnar?) should update it or have his hosting company's techs do so.

This is the most up-to-date version of the 3.8.x series. We will not be moving to the 4.x.x series due to the reason in this thread.


Ir would also cost $300 plus to move to 4, for no benefit.

Does this exploit sound familiar?

Indeed it does. Which is why we moved to Patch Level 2 eight hours after it's release.




Claverhouse

 

[Wisp]

The point is that it existed.
The point is that stuff like that happens.
The point is that companies don't tend to find out about stuff like that until a fair amount of time after the technical bits of the internet come across it.
The point is the shifting and uncertain nature of technical vulnerabilities.

 

[sagewolf]

What report ?


Sadly, the League to stop Forum Hacking and Crime on the Internet collapsed a few years back. It was too much for one man.




Claverhouse

...The report from Verizon Fios that I am assuming you are going to attempt to obtain? The one lightspeed mentioned? The one from earlier in the thread:

Just an update:

As soon as the following information is submitted, Verizon Fios can find out exactly what went wrong.

That one. I'm waiting for that one.

 

[fullerene]

yeah I agree with sage... latro, I understand the anger, but chill. I can't even imagine claver not feeling defensive right now (given the number of people fighting him on this), so any anger/internet-yelling will only make him harder to convince. If you argue *at* the person, they get defensive and soon it becomes about pride rather than the issue, and then you've split yourself into two fronts.

Claver: I think you're making a pretty classic mistake. "No evidence" of innocence is an extremely subjective statement, in this case. To you, who haven't been around the forum very long and don't know jesin very well (chatting through IRC or visiting him in real life or whatever), there's no evidence. To people who know him well, there is evidence. I can't imagine that all your real-life friends and relationships with people are stagnant and remain permanently as shallow as the day you met the person. If someone acts like a dick in the first week after you met them, you grow to internally judge "that person's a dick until they show me otherwise." If someone is honorable for 3 years and then acts like a dick for a week, you think "you seem to be in a really pissy mood recently... what's your problem?"

You, who haven't been around here for very long, look at this situation and go "there's no reason to think he's not just a dick." People who have formed relationships with him think "there's no reason to think this is the jesin we know." Believe it or not: in our time on the forum together, many people have become more than names and avatars to each other. While "Jesin" might be a name/avatar to you, many other people just see those as references to the person.

In short: until you get to spend some time getting to know jesin, our best evidence will be ineffective against your arguments, and your best evidence will be inapplicable in our eyes.

 

[Claverhouse]

I really wonder who wouldn't automatically assume that any forum would have a backup system in place, what with servers not being infallible.

But who backs up the back-ups ?


Seriously, the back-up to within 3 minutes before the attack took place couldn't have happened at our last hosts; and many forums are run on private non-hosted servers whose solitary tech does not have the time nor space to take more than weekly back-ups. Particularly if they're doing it from school property.

Seriously, Claverhouse, you're demonstrating some extremely fundamental technical incompetence in this thread. A little bit ago it frustrated me to the point that I was shaking from rage

*laughs*

'Rage' ? Seriously ?




Claverhouse

 

[ashitaria]

You, who haven't been around here for very long, look at this situation and go "there's no reason to think he's not just a dick." People who have formed relationships with him think "there's no reason to think this is the jesin we know." Believe it or not: in our time on the forum together, many people have become more than names and avatars to each other. While "Jesin" might be a name/avatar to you, many other people just see those as references to the person.

In short: until you get to spend some time getting to know jesin, our best evidence will be ineffective against your arguments, and your best evidence will be inapplicable in our eyes.

Actually, I think neither. Whether you like or not, I'm being as unbiased as I can and pointed out possibilities that, though you guys may find disgusting, I find possible.
I have never viewed Jesin as just a name and avatar. I find it highly offensive for you to accuse me as such, and it seems you view me as a name and avatar. It is because I know Jesin that is why I am speaking. Since I do not know Jesin, I can thus analyze things in the most unbiased way possible.
From what I see, instead of arguing against my points, you are instead arguing against the notion that Jesin is capable of such things. Remember that humans can be capable of all sort of things, and references from many books of cases shows that because of such beliefs, many criminals get away scot-free.
Of course, I may be just wasting my breath because from what I have read, it's seems you guys are not the most open-minded individualists on Earth.

In fact, I don't understand why I am reduced to arguing why Jesin is not absolutely 100% not guilty. No one, no matter how good or perfect, is 100% innocent- except little children.

Yes, innocent till proven guilty. But currently, it is too dangerous to re-grant Jesin's power, and it is as clear as glass that Jesin or at least Jesin's account hacked the forums.

Sadly, the current case is guilty till proven innocent, and even the most dim person here can see why it is the case.

 

[Latro]

*laughs*

'Rage' ? Seriously ?




Claverhouse

If you care to read the edited version maybe it'll make a little more sense. But yes, I know how rage feels, and that's what it was. Rarely do people on the internet influence me emotionally (I spent years upon years on a forum that was practically 4chan lite) but this did, because you're being the truly vile combination of confident, incompetent, and in power.

 

[Claverhouse]

...The report from Verizon Fios that I am assuming you are going to attempt to obtain? The one lightspeed mentioned?

Oh, that is not in my domain. It is entirely in the hands of lightspeed, who has far greater skillz than I at IP stuff.

Although, if conclusive either way, it's evidence will be followed.



This like trying to convince the devoted GOP fanatics that yes, George W. Could Tell a Lie.



Claverhouse

 

[sagewolf]

Everything Cry-- Fullerene said. Everything. Times a million.

Claverhouse: By you, I meant the admins as a whole, any one or combination of you. I didn't mean you specifically, sorry if I sounded like I was accusing you of anything.

Latro: I don't think that's what he meant. Forgive me for saying this, but you haven't been here very long, and it's hard to get to know someone through only what they say, deprived of all the other nuances of human communication. Add to that the fact that Jesin hasn't been very active lately, and can you see why the older members, who were around when he was active, are saying others don't know him? No-one's trying to demean anyone.

*Casts Invoke Auburn on entire thread and everyone in it*