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Vegetarian?

Are you a vegetarian?

  • Yes

    Votes: 20 22.7%
  • No

    Votes: 68 77.3%

  • Total voters
    88

FusionKnight

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Well, you can't make a moral argument from a morally-relativist position, which in my experience correlates highly with secular-humanism.
 

Chronomar

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I would consider myself a semi-vegitarian, as I don't eat that much meat, and what I do eat is because of cultural expectations/my mom cooked it, so now I have to eat it reasons.

One thing that annoys me about anti-vegitarians is that they always try to argue that humans "naturally" eat meat, and that "from the begining" we were hunting meat eaters.

As far as biologists are concerned, not true. The anatomy point was already brought up, I believe, but in addition to that the first original humanoid considered homo sapien was an omnivore...that ate meat rarely...and was a scavenger. Did not originally usually kill other animals (especially larger ones) for food. Also, for modern humans, being omnivores gives us a choice, not a mandate to eat both meat and veggies.

Also, on the Damn Texans thing...I have cousins in Texas (in Dallas/Fort Worth), and they eat so much meat and fat it is just gross. Of course, you can't always streotype a whole area with out finding exceptions, and one of my Uncles is a very healthy-food eating vegitarian.
 

Jesin

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Having morals does not conflict with secular humanism. Secular humanism is amoral in the sense that it does not come with prepackaged morality. You have to bring your own.
 

Wisp

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*agrees with Jesin*
 

Agent Intellect

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After two tremendous growth spurts — one in size, followed by an even more important one in cognitive ability — the human brain is now a lot like a teenage boy.

It consumes huge amounts of calories, is rather temperamental and, when harnessed just right, exhibits incredible prowess. The brain's roaring metabolism, possibly stimulated by early man's invention of cooking, may be the main factor behind our most critical cognitive leap, new research suggests.
About 2 million years ago, the human brain rapidly increased its mass until it was double the size of other primate brains.

"This happened because we started to eat better food, like eating more meat," said researcher Philipp Khaitovich of the Partner Institute for Computational Biology in Shanghai

But the increase in size, Khaitovich continued, "did not make humans as smart as they are today."

The early shift

For a long time, we were pretty dumb. Humans did little but make "the same very boring stone tools for almost 2 million years," he said. Then, only about 150,000 years ago, a different type of spurt happened — our big brains suddenly got smart. We started innovating. We tried different materials, such as bone, and invented many new tools, including needles for beadwork. Responding to, presumably, our first abstract thoughts, we started creating art and maybe even religion.

To understand what caused the cognitive spurt, Khaitovich and colleagues examined chemical brain processes known to have changed in the past 200,000 years. Comparing apes and humans, they found the most robust differences were for processes involved in energy metabolism.

The finding suggests that increased access to calories spurred our cognitive advances, said Khaitovich, carefully adding that definitive claims of causation are premature.

The research is detailed in the August 2008 issue of Genome Biology.
The extra calories may not have come from more food, but rather from the emergence of pre-historic "Iron Chefs;" the first hearths also arose about 200,000 years ago.

In most animals, the gut needs a lot of energy to grind out nourishment from food sources. But cooking, by breaking down fibers and making nutrients more readily available, is a way of processing food outside the body. Eating (mostly) cooked meals would have lessened the energy needs of our digestion systems, Khaitovich explained, thereby freeing up calories for our brains.
Instead of growing even larger (which would have made birth even more problematic), the human brain most likely used the additional calories to grease the wheels of its internal functioning.

Digestion question

Today, humans have relatively small digestive systems and burn 20-25 percent of their calories running their brains. For comparison, other vertebrate brains use as little as 2 percent of the animal's caloric intake.

Does this mean renewing our subscriptions to Bon Appetit will make our brains more efficient? No, but we probably should avoid diving into the raw food movement. Devoted followers end up, said Khaitovich, "with very severe health problems."

Scientists wonder if our cognitive spurt happened too fast. Some of our most common mental health problems, ranging from depression and bipolar disorder to autism and schizophrenia, may be by-products of the metabolic changes that happened in an evolutionary "blink of an eye," Khaitovich said.

While other theories for the brain's cognitive spurt have not been ruled out (one involves the introduction of fish to the human diet), the finding sheds light on what made us, as Khaitovich put it, "so strange compared to other animals."

source: http://www.livescience.com/culture/080811-brain-evolution.html
 

Jordan~

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I take the utilitarian perspective towards anything capable of experiencing pleasure. Since pleasure is the highest goal (all morality, meaning, art, emotion, instinct etc. is a device with the purpose of finding pleasure), it must be the basis for morality, so moral actions are ones that maximise pleasure. Since animals, even the basest ones, experience pleasure and pain (where pleasure refers to positive experience, and pain to negative - without which the animal would never act, certainly, for instinct relies on emotion and feeling as its motivators) they ought to be treated equally to anything else that experiences pleasure, human beings included. Anything "higher" or "better" in a human is a conceit we fabricated ourselves to make ourselves feel better: meat is eaten out of custom, brutality, and a desire to feel above the "lower" beasts, nothing else. The systematic murder, and indeed, breeding for the purpose of murder, of millions of animals, ergo, is one of the greatest evils ever perpetrated to the utilitarian viewpoint. Not only is one bringing misery into the world, but one is destroying it in such a way as to bring more.
 

Dissident

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meat is eaten out of custom, brutality, and a desire to feel above the "lower" beasts, nothing else.
Dont forget one of the main reasons: Pleasure :D.
 

Jordan~

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But a utilitarian weighs the pleasure caused by an action against the pain caused by it. In the case of meat, the pain of rearing animals in captivity, often in hideous conditions, and then killing them is far greater than the minute pleasure caused by the taste of a toally unnecessary steak. The three reasons I listed, note, are all paths to pleasure: the pleasure some (*cough* SJs *cough*) get from doing things the "proper" way; the pleasure of savage, inconsiderate hedonism, and the pleasure of feeling important.
 

boku

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I take the utilitarian perspective towards anything capable of experiencing pleasure. Since pleasure is the highest goal (all morality, meaning, art, emotion, instinct etc. is a device with the purpose of finding pleasure), it must be the basis for morality, so moral actions are ones that maximise pleasure. Since animals, even the basest ones, experience pleasure and pain (where pleasure refers to positive experience, and pain to negative - without which the animal would never act, certainly, for instinct relies on emotion and feeling as its motivators) they ought to be treated equally to anything else that experiences pleasure, human beings included.

Um, what I'm about to say is theoretical and I'm not so sure of myself so please do take it with a pinch of salt.

There's a flaw in using the utilitarian perspective towards animals. From what I remember, utilitarianism is about minimizing sufferings and maximizing pleasure. However, how do we measure the amount of sufferings and pleasure something sentient goes through? We can already see that from people, different people get different amount of sufferings and/or pleasure from the same stimuli. Heck, what some find pleasurable might be a nightmare to others. (Es in social situations compared to Is. :D) Let alone trying to measure that in animals.

The debate as to whether animals can feel pain has camps on both sides too. I initially typed out a long 'essay' in response to this before googling 'can animals feel pain' and now I feel like whacking myself.
http://www.wellcome.ac.uk/en/pain/microsite/culture2.html
That website explains it a lot better than I can with twice the amount of words, it's worth the read.

Of course, I find myself agreeing that the perceived sufferings gone through by the animals before and during slaughter compared to the pleasure experienced by the human from eating it puts the odds against us humans. :)
 

Jordan~

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Well, given that all perception of positivity and negativity owes to primal drives (it's good to be having sex, it's not good to be on fire, etc.), anything with drives must have one aspect of experience - that being the sum of its sensory perceptions - which it prefers to others. Therefore, "pleasure" and "pain" in the sense of positive and negative experience exist in anything that instinctually avoids some things and seeks others. As for intensity of pleasure and pain, it's meaningless to compare the suffering of one thing to that of another - if the worst pain I've ever experienced is stubbing my toe, to me, that experience is equally as bad as someone else having their arm removed with a blunt saw. That person is experiencing their worst pain, and so am I: compared to our prior experiences of pain, they are equally bad. Or in the case of pleasure, if my highest pleasure is eating a bar of Dairy Milk, while you've achieved nirvana, are you feeling more pleasure than me? Pleasure and pain, as you suggested, are relative to the thing experiencing them. The highest pain of one thing is equal to the highest pain of another, and the same is true of pleasure. For another thing, there are so many shades of positive and negative experience that any attempt to quantify them mathematically is surely conceited. Therefore, I modify the golden rule of utilitarianism to the following:

A good action is any which (with the experience of the acted-upon weighed over that of the actor) enhances or lengthens the positive experience; reduces or shortens the negative experience; or lengthens, or prevents a shortening of, the existence of the consciousness of the acted-upon.

Where
Actor: An entity which acts or inacts.
Acted-upon: An entity with a varied experience of the universe, one or more aspect(s) of which is/are preferable; which is affected by an action or inaction.
Action: Any impact on circumstances, whether direct or indirect, including those caused by doing nothing.

This still means that we need to attempt to measure pleasure or pain, but as I've discussed in other threads, past experience is the best thing we have to go by in making judgement. Anything which produces a reaction we recognise as indicating pain or pleasure can be safely assumed to be evidence of the presence of said feelings, then, and if we have seen how a certain acted-upon thing reacts to a certain action in the past, we can, based on that, judge whether the action will give them pleasure or pain.
 

Perseus

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I eat vegetables, but mainly I am a carnivore, preferring wild foods which must be about 10% of my diet, which is a higher figure than the Saxons in England.
 

Perseus

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Wiki:

Additionally, many individuals describe themselves as simply "vegetarian" while actually practicing a semi-vegetarian diet.[19]
 

Anling

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If you eat it too fast you will. By the way they have figured out a way to deep fry twinkies and Oreo cookies and serve them on a stick so that you don't have to sit down to eat them. Now that's junk food on the go!!

While I was in Indiana I discovered that they serve deep fried colas at some of the fairs. I'm not entirely sure how they manage to do that, I think it's some sort of batter.
 

Anling

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I am not a vegetarian. But I have lived with several and as we shared food I guess I could say that I have tried it. Even with protein supplements (plus some other ones) I just don't function well on a no meat diet. Unlike what some others experience, I have considerably less energy if I don't eat meat for a while.
 

Legionnaire

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Am I a vegetarian? When I go to a buffet, whats the first thing I bring back to the table on my plate? Steak, ribs, and chicken. Next plate? More ribs. 3rd plate? Yes you guessed it more ribs. So the answer is no. My favorite type of meat is venison. My best friend got his hunter's license and gave me a few pounds of venison, it was good. I plan to get my hunter's license one of these day's. Never been hunting but I'd like to. Within the 2 years I've heard people complain about KFC torturing the chickens before death, but well I don't really care, the chicken still tastes finger-licking good to me. Note: I'm from the NE of US not down south.
 

Perseus

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In the local Carnivore Society we are allowed to drink lots of beer and cider and to eat potatoes. Somebody sneaked a pea on to the Chairman's plate and he was sick!
 

Jordan~

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I think I'm going to be sick.
 

severus

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Reviving this thread...

I am currently a vegan, but I am considering dropping back to vegetarianism.

I became a vegan for "moral" reasons. But as time goes by, those arguments mean less and less to me. Killing them is one thing. But taking honey, milk, eggs, and wool? I dunno.

I sometimes feel like I could be healthier eating animal products. My current diet contains a lot of soy, which is apparently not good. It also contains more processed foods.

So the question now is do the health benefits of dropping back (mind you, still no meat or fish) make up for the "immoral" use of animal products? And let's be honest, I cheat now as it is--just not for healthy foods.

Ugh. And then I have to tell everyone, which is admitting defeat. The amount of shit I put up with when starting out! Bets on how long I'd last, heated debates over animal rights, snide comments about my food.... But I will not sacrafice my health for pride.

So?
 

Auburn

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Reviving this thread...

I am currently a vegan, but I am considering dropping back to vegetarianism.

I became a vegan for "moral" reasons. But as time goes by, those arguments mean less and less to me. Killing them is one thing. But taking honey, milk, eggs, and wool? I dunno.

I sometimes feel like I could be healthier eating animal products. My current diet contains a lot of soy, which is apparently not good. It also contains more processed foods.

So the question now is do the health benefits of dropping back (mind you, still no meat or fish) make up for the "immoral" use of animal products? And let's be honest, I cheat now as it is--just not for healthy foods.

Ugh. And then I have to tell everyone, which is admitting defeat. The amount of shit I put up with when starting out! Bets on how long I'd last, heated debates over animal rights, snide comments about my food.... But I will not sacrafice my health for pride.

So?

Woah, freaky >_>

Just a few days ago I told my family that I was dropping down to vegetarian. My reason for being vegan had nothing to do with morality, but was for health reasons - yet my reason for dropping down is the same as yours. For veganism to actually be healthier in general takes a lot of extra preparation/time/money. Like you said, it can actually be less healthy if not done properly.

I've been too busy lately to have the time to prepare it, and also, the cost of it was adding up to a lot. When I have my own money and more time, I may pick it back up.

And, severus, the way I see it - you're not defeated, you're just being smart. ;)
 

severus

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Ha. When I saw that it was you who'd commented I thought "oh no, that's the other vegan!":p

Yeah I'm pretty sure I'm going vegetarian. Now how to present this?
 

Auburn

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Yeah I'm pretty sure I'm going vegetarian. Now how to present this?

Hmm...
As you probably know, the logic behind your decision is not enough to shield you from their remarks. If your manner of presenting the initial decision to be vegan contained an air of superiority, then this is when karma will just have to bite you back. :D:p

[I can say that because it's happened to me before also. I've since learned to be humble about my own convictions (be they moral or logical) and try not to come across as 'better' than them for following them - because even though that's never been my intent; it can come across as such when I don't take caution.]
 

severus

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It is done. My mother seemed quite relieved. The rest can find out on their own.

I probably did have an air of superiority, or else they imagined it. Same result either way, but I fly under the radar enough now to not warrant comments.

ah :)
 

Razare

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Wow, I'm astounded 23% voted yes. I guess I shouldn't be suprised, INTP's are intelligent and intelligent people flock to the cities and adopt liberal idealism, which involves vegetarianism.

As you can tell, I've never thought highly of vegetarians, and the wannabe ones are the worst.
 

truthseeker72

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I'd rather starve than become a vegetarian. Completely abstaining from all animal sources is not only unhealthy (how does a vegetarian consume enough protein?), but also unnatural (over 99% of human history involves our species eating other species for nourishment, in addition to fruits and vegetables).

Question: Has anyone ever seen a muscular, lean vegetarian?
 

Red Mage

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I'd rather starve than become a vegetarian. Completely abstaining from all animal sources is not only unhealthy (how does a vegetarian consume enough protein?), but also unnatural (over 99% of human history involves our species eating other species for nourishment, in addition to fruits and vegetables).

Question: Has anyone ever seen a muscular, lean vegetarian?

Rather starve than subsist on vegetables alone? Weird. Also, I've only heard that vegetarian diets are more healthy than those with meat or that they're essentially the same. I've never heard the argument that it's less healthy. I forget what you do about protein. However, it does turn you into a pussy.

Edit: I looked the protein thing up. The answer is quite simple. I must admit that I also wondered how you could survive without meat for too long, but here it is:

Absolutely, it’s actually difficult to become protein deficient unless you quit eating all together. Just about all unrefined foods contain significant amounts of protein. Potatoes are 11% protein, oranges 8%, beans 26%, and tofu 34%. In fact, people have been known to grow at astounding rates (doubling their body size in only six months) on a diet of only 5% protein. These people are infants and they do it during the first 6 months of life, fueled by breast milk, which contains just 5% protein.

Also, it's tricky to define what's natural or not for humans. It's certainly not unnatural to abstain from eating meat. A lot of animals do it, including most primates. The primates, other than humans, that do eat meat don't eat it regularly. Just because humans have done something for a long time doesn't mean it's more natural. It's a choice, and neither option is stupid.
 

truthseeker72

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Protein not only builds lean muscle tissue, it performs several vital functions for the body. Indequate levels of protein, which contain essential amino acids, lead to a host of ailments, while conversely, there is no such thing as an "essential carbohydrate." Also, the body burns many more calories digesting protein than it does carbs or fats. This explains why high-protein, low-carb diets invariably lead to fat loss, while preserving muscle tissue.

Every vegetarian I have ever met, without exception, has been either underweight or overweight. I'm still waiting to meet a vegetarian possessing anything close to an athletic build.

Protein supplements, while good in a pinch, can never totally replace natural sources of protein. The human body responds much better to natural sources of nourishment than to chemically manufactured substitutes.

And no, I didn't literally mean that I would choose starvation over vegetarianism. Even INTP's can occasionally resort to hyperbole to make a point.
 

Ogion

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I'd rather starve than become a vegetarian. Completely abstaining from all animal sources is not only unhealthy (how does a vegetarian consume enough protein?), but also unnatural (over 99% of human history involves our species eating other species for nourishment, in addition to fruits and vegetables).

Question: Has anyone ever seen a muscular, lean vegetarian?

I won't respond to the protein , since Red Mage did that already quite well, but:
If you want to see a tall, muscular (naturally, not body-building/trained) vegetarian, come over here. And even though i'm not lean, which is because i just eat too much (and stuff like cornflakes, cake and so on), i think i'm quite healthy.
So stop that polemic 'question' and make a real argument or none.

Ogion

EDIT: BTW, of coure "vegetarian diet" per se has no indicator wether or not it is healthy. You see, even just living from Beer and potato chips would be a 'vegetarian diet', of course it wouldn't be healthy.
 

EloquentBohemian

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...even just living from Beer and potato chips would be a 'vegetarian diet', of course it wouldn't be healthy.
Alright!! I can be a vegetarian now! :D Does this qualify as vegan?
 

Ogion

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:D :D :D

Ogion
 

Auburn

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Red Mage, I couldn't have summed it up better myself. Thank you for that. :)

BTW, of coure "vegetarian diet" per se has no indicator wether or not it is healthy. You see, even just living from Beer and potato chips would be a 'vegetarian diet', of course it wouldn't be healthy.

Lol, exactly! (which is precisely why I decided to postpone veganism, but I cans still keep a vegetarian diet quite well)

One question I always get when I tell people I'm vegetarian/vegan is :
"So what the heck do you eat then?? salad??"

But to be honest, I rarely eat salads. In fact, I can't stand eating too many raw vegetables. And yes, this is coming from an ex-vegan for 3 years.^^;

And to top it off, I went to the doctor just last month and got blood drawn. The tests came back absolutely normal. There is no lack of anything in my bloodstream. :)

But um, here, I want to show you guys something. I took the time to photograph my food, before consuming it, for a few days so I could explain to people what it is that I eat when they ask me. This is just a very small sample of some of the foods I eat:

28rp3dd.jpg


33ts4z8.jpg


1pxlcm.jpg


14o8x9v.jpg


2hp0ewy.jpg


x2m1eb.jpg
 

Venture

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Your food give me naustia just looking at it.

I could never stand raw vegeatbles either, alot of stuff I eat bothers my throat, Bannas, watermelon, lettuce, tomato, cantolope, tuna, chicken, hamburger meat et cetera.

I like most of that food but I can't eat alone it needs to be cooked or mixed with something else.

I love grain and whole wheat stuff, BAGELS!!!!,TOAST, BAGES!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Ogion

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Damn you, now i'm hungry :D:p

Ogion
 

del

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I'm a pescetarian -- a vegetarian that can eat seafood -- mostly for health reasons.

But one of the big reasons I don't like to eat red meat is that it has a huge impact on the environment.

One solution I've been thinking a lot about is people eating insects.

Nutritionally, they contain not only protein but also vitamins and minerals that are rare in livestock.

They have a minimal environmental impact: it takes, on average, 900 gallons of water to make enough beef for a 1/3rd pound hamburger; to make the equivalent in insect meat, it takes a damp paper towel.

Ethically -- well, I don't have a problem growing insect larva to harvest for food. What is it some vegetarians say? "Don't eat anything with a face"?

Also, we're one of the few cultures that don't eat insects.

Actually me and my room mate are going to order some mealworms online and see if we can make them into something edible. I'll let you guys know how it goes, lol.
 

echoplex

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^Good point. There are probably some types of insects I would be willing to eat if prepared properly. I'd rather not eat them raw though. What's funny too is that all people probably eat insects and don't even know it. It's been estimated that the average person ingests alot (can't remember the number) of spiders in their sleep throughout their lifetime.

Apparently they just crawl right in your mouth. If a veg/vegan gave you shit for that, all you have to say is "but it committed suicide!":D
 

Ogion

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Hehe, yea del.

Although i think before i eat insects they'd have to be processed to powder or anything.
/me is an insect-'hater' :p

And yea, agreement on the environmental impact. That is a very important thing to consider.

Ogion
 

del

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Yeah, we're thinking that we'll grind them into some kind of paste to make patties out of and then cook them, lol.
 

truthseeker72

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Ogion, I have rarely seen such ferocity from your posts. Apparently, I stirred something within you and Red Mage. That's great; a spirited debate is invigorating.

I read the article about bodybuilding and vegetarianism. However, it's somewhat misleading. The author is no bodybuilder; he weighs only 153 lb. (I apologize for my ignorance of the metric system. I have no idea how many kilos that converts to). While he seems to be in decent shape, and his efforts are commendable, 153 lb at 5'7" does not constitue a "muscular" build. He's simply not big enough.

More importantly, the author fails to cite a single bodybuilder, professional or amateur, or even a strength athlete, e.g., a powerlifter or a football player, that adheres to a vegetarian diet. Clearly, there's a reason for that: nothing comes close to building strength and muscle like protein. It's also worth noting that the author of that post is not a vegan; he still consumes dairy products such as eggs and milk. I seriously doubt he would be able to make the gains he has without that.

Also, I sharply disagree with his argument that a high-protein diet is unhealthy because of the high fat content. I'm dieting for a bodybuilding contest that is taking place on May 30. I consume between 250-300 grams of protein a day. (I weigh 185 lb. at the moment) Somehow, over the past twelve weeks, my waist has shrunk two inches, and I've shed fifteen pounds, while maintaining my strength in the gym. How is this possible? I eat lean sources of protein throughout the day, like chicken, turkey and fish, and about once a week, a lean steak. High-protein does not mean high-fat.

Ogion, polemics define debating. As long as nobody makes any personal attacks, I see nothing wrong with the occasional polemical statement. Bring on the debate!
 

Ogion

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Hm, i didn't really see 'ferocity' in my post...
Also, i am not really interested in debate on this, i have to confess. I don't win anything by trying to convince you. I make my own experience (to be vegetarian for three quarters of my life) and that suffices for me. These kinds of debate tend to be futile for both sides (in part because there are already 'two sides' beforehand) and tiring.

Sorry, if you wish to debate, maybe you find someone else.

Ogion
 

saffyangelis

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Actually me and my room mate are going to order some mealworms online and see if we can make them into something edible. I'll let you guys know how it goes, lol.

Why make it yourself? You can get it processed now, just like any other food.

Try here if you don't believe me --> http://edible.com/shop/
 

oskermire

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vegetarian - based on pretty much on all said moral reasons.

i'll miss meat on occasions, especially when blazed and you know a cheeseburger would be the most incredible thing in the world right now.. but i just stick to the fries.
 

trife

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I <3 meat. Way I see it, if it wasn't suppose to be eaten, my body wouldn't digest it. Of course always exceptions, like corn. And, well, watermelon gives me worse gas than any bean could. Granted, I don't eat sea food. I can't get past the fact that people enjoy eating things which once lived in their own toilet.

Granted, I'd eat a spicy salad (lettuce, hebernaro, jalapeño, cayane, cheese, dressing) over steak.

Forgive any typps. iPhone is not fat finger friendly
 

saffyangelis

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Forgive any typps. iPhone is not fat finger friendly
Ipod touch isn't friendly either - and I don't have fat fingers =/ plus, I think the only typo was on the word typo =P (and you don't have an annoying spellcheck that capitalizes randomly, changes words to American spellings and changes even correctly spelled words? Lucky!)
(it also insists on caplitalising LOL. I'm not sure why)
(you can all go back on topic now. Sorry)k
 
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