FacetiousPersona Banning

[naberus]

We don't even know that Face is INTP or not

Face was actually ESFJ (see the last page of "Who's the smartest on the forum?" over in the Lounge)

 

[cheese]

Face didn't stick to any type.

I've been reading over posts that showed evidence of Face's empathy and friendliness. How does this fit?

 

[Gorgrim]

aha ! cow is secretly FP....

 

[fullerene]

oh, I don't, cheese. I just went into "he"'s because it's annoying to use gender neutral everything in posts that long.

I also don't think it's quite uncommon that someone joins a forum with the specific purpose of derailing threads. If it didn't happen pretty frequently, then whence came the word "troll"?

 

[cheese]

Gorgim:
That's what I thought!

cryptonia:
I'm not denying that trolls exist, just wondering why they do. I cannot see how it would be satisfying to set out with the express purpose of derailing threads. Why seek negative attention? If one is so starved for it surely it'd be more satisfying to get the pleasant version. I just can't understand it on a personal level.

I still don't know if Face was that bad, but oh well.

 

[flow]

Good riddance. Face was malicious in intent, and certainly an INTP/J who was in their middle teens. Their presence provided nothing but a distraction from the actual conversations most members were trying to engage in. I applaud the Mods handling of the situation, and thank them for providing a thread to ensure clarity for all of us laypersons.

 

[FF]

Weird. Face was always nice to me. I never knew this side of him existed...

 

[Da Blob]

I am relatively new to the Internet, so I have made a lot of mistakes. When I have crossed the line (once or twice) Jesin or LOR have been kind enough to show me the error of my ways. But then I responded to their advice by adapting -I think if someone was warned even once and did not modify his or her posts, that does show disrespect for the community...

I trust Admin to know what they are doing...

(actually, I wonder if some time in the past someone has set out to mess up an former friend's favorite forum?)

 

[Wisp]

The mods were talking at one point with me about lor's suspicion that Face was a former member, actually. That went nowhere however. The only thing that came up was a guy by the name of Zeke Johnson, because he had a self-professed interest in deconstructing social structures, and were from the same general area, but that really came to nothing, and is nothing but fluff and shadows.

 

[Anling]

Well, I am surprised by the banning (I haven't been around much for a week or two). But I am also a little relieved. Face's behavior did not make me want to interact with him/her at all. But now I feel all judgmental for actually saying it.

 

[sagewolf]

I'll give Face one thing: he did provide a few thoughtful and intelligent posts. Whenever I saw one, though, it was a shock, because all of his other posts were either pointless (one-liners, mostly), spam, or an outright insult. We have a lot of intelligent members here who don't cause trouble and who respect the other members of the forum, and those are the kind of members the forum needs. If the admins saw fit to ban him, then I think they were justified from what I saw of a lot of his posts, and especially if he didn't respond to warnings. I was actually getting accustomed to skipping any of his posts that weren't very long, to be honest.

@cheese: I think it's the same kind of psychology that's at work in a bully or a misbehaving toddler/pet. In the latter situation, if positive attention isn't forthcoming, or is hard to obtain, then one settles for the easy-to-get negative attention, because it's a heck of a lot better than being ignored. In the former, it's (from what I've read/heard: now is the time for the 'I'm not an expert' qualifier, I believe) more of enjoying a feeling of control or power over others: one does something and others react in a certain way. It is hard to understand, and I doubt that even those who are affected by it understand it. That's the theory, anyway, I think. *shrugs*

 

[Da Blob]

I don't remember which one, but I just mentioned "Games People Play" By Berne on some thread. I think Face (as we all do occasionally) was just playing games with us. It is easy to win 'a game' if you're the only one who knows 'The Rules' or knows it is just a game to you...

 

[hopefulmonster]

This seems like a bunch of pointless drama to me *shrug*

 

[loveofreason]

I agree with comments... Face was/is extremely intelligent, which perhaps both contributes to the behaviour and makes it all the more frustrating for others that Face chooses to play complex and destructive games rather than treat as equal.

The forum is not just a toy for bored intellects - though games are part of our life here, they are played with the tacit consent of all those involved, and mostly within the boundaries defined for them. ie. the relevant boards.

Oh, and yes, as wild cards tossed to newcomers by way of warm welcome.

Face has not sort to establish any boundaries for their behaviour, nor shared their rules.

Which is a shame, because the mind behind the persona could be interesting.

15:16 AccidentGirl (FacetiousPersona) "I have an idea. Can I be restricted to only posting in my own section?"


A request from FacetiousPersona.

This was made public for a reason. Feel free to post your thoughts concerning the matter.

It is worth considering. Has the potential to function, but needs some pondering.

The boards are due to be rearanged. There may be an appropriate place for the likes of Face, but I can't promise.

 

[cheese]

Sagewolf:
Yes that makes sense, thanks.

I think it's also what lor was saying about games for bored intellects. I don't know if Face had any malicious intent but it was certainly playing with us. Personal-factual inconsistencies everywhere and a big, giant, malfunctioning Pness - continual question evasions (directly or through dishonesty) and purposeful focus on absorbing information from others, especially pertaining to itself. The information flow was almost entirely one way.

I think the name says it all really: FacetiousPersona. It's like those riddles where the answer is contained in the question, and nobody sees it. It's an elaborate joke.

 

[Da Blob]

Growing up is a difficult thing for a lot of young people to do in this world, particularly if they are more intelligent than most of their peers and of course, the relevant Authority figures.
This is a unique opportunity for maturing, I hate to cut anyone out.

However, there is a thread going currently about the destructive process of 'telling lies', obviously the question is "when can one trust an other once it has been shown that he or she practices deception on a more or less regular basis?" How does one judge true repentance from just another echo of mockery?

 

[QSR]

I appreciate the mods banning that nick and discussing it here. I've been around the internet for longer than a lot of the posters here have been alive. I can't say that I'm an expert on trolling, but you have to be careful about putting up with too much of it. It's fine if it only happens occasionally, but FP was clearly a person who was obsessed with destroying this community. His suicidal avatar was also a good indication of his intentions.

What you have to understand is that sociopathic behavior exists on the internet, just like it does in the real world. I think most of the people on this board (myself included) don't really understand the motivations of a full-bore troll. We like to think that people are generally honest like ourselves, but the truth is that some people aren't. They live to draw attention to themselves and have no qualms about making everyone else miserable.

I think the key is that people need to be generally honest for a site like this to work. If someone is constantly posting red herrings, then they can ultimately destroy a messageboard. I think if the mods notice that a poster is being repeatedly dishonest, then they should be banned.

 

[loveofreason]

Yes, when we were smaller we had a degree of openness and honesty between the members that made this place, to our minds. unique.

And though it may be ultimately impossible, I would like to retain something of that atmosphere.

Thanks for your perspective.

 

[Melkor]

Oh.....
there goes one pillar of society..

I suppose I'll be next...

well..

I HAVE ONE THING TO SAY TO YOU!


WHETHER OR NOT HE HAS HAD A HAIRCUT THIS PILLARS GONNA PULL DOWN ALL THE OTHER PILLARS AND SQUASH YOU WIHT YOUR OWN TEMPLE!

 

[Oblivious]

Just as planned.

Edit: I was planning on leaving it at that, but I suppose I should explain a little. I am surprised Face was not banned earlier, but probably not as surprised as Face itself.

 

[Melkor]

-juggles a bunch of red-flavoured scneted coloured tight-ropes in the air while walking on a sea of cricket balls-


Dadaddadaaaaaaaadeeeee.

 

[loveofreason]

Just as planned.

Edit: I was planning on leaving it at that, but I suppose I should explain a little. I am surprised Face was not banned earlier, but probably not as surprised as Face itself.

Exactly.

And just ignore Melkor. He tries so damn hard to be a troll, but just doesn't cut it.

Face was exceptionally good.

 

[Melkor]

But...but....

-a little tear escapes from Melkro ickle green eyes, his little nostrils start to flicker in a distraught manner and his bottom lip quivers with a terrifiyng frquency-



I ....


I...

-Melkro runs from the room weeping manically-

 

[Sugarpop]

FacetiousPersona?

Yes, interesting phenomenon. The enigma holds some allure. I'd be open to include it on a limited basis, but won't invite it to my birthday party. Some comments seem sincere enough, though often obnoxious.

 

[Kuu]

I still think Face should be allowed back, with limitations. If the troll-ish behaviour continues, then a permanent ban will be in order, and then everybody will be witness and there will be no doubt about it being the correct decision.

How much harm could it do, that little experiment?

(I'm a bit squeamish about final, permanent decisions such as this...)

 

[Dissident]

For what I undestood the ban was temporary, how long will it last then? Or is it not decided?

 

[loveofreason]

It was a ten day ban, so we have what... eight left?

I lose track of time....

 

[Dissident]

Oh, I didn't know. Let's enjoy the peace then

 

[Sugarpop]

The sad fact is that all the bullshit threads are getting dull.

 

[Wisp]

....and is that a bad thing? I don't actually much like the bullshit threads, I'd rather have discussions...

 

[fullerene]

I still think Face should be allowed back, with limitations. If the troll-ish behaviour continues, then a permanent ban will be in order, and then everybody will be witness and there will be no doubt about it being the correct decision.

How much harm could it do, that little experiment?

Actually, I think it could do quite a bit. If face is a troll, then he's a very smart troll. If he's a smart troll, who just wants to instigate people, then he'll use the chance to contribute thoughtfully and keep his head down for a few months. People tend to let the derailments from noddy or AI slide (thought they were really no less widespread) just because they had a long history of thoughtful contributions and sensible conversation. FP was derailing threads and making nonsensical posts from the very beginning.

Given a chance to come back, with limitations, I strongly doubt that FP would be even a little bit disruptive. The problem would come with later on, when nobody would have any reason not to believe him if he says "I'm just having a little bit of fun."


I am, of course, not sure any of that would happen. I'd be a bit surprised if face's return wasn't permanent, though, if he comes back at all. That said, it's always possible we've pissed him off enough that if he came back and was only allowed to post in a limited section of the forum, he'd take the opportunity to go out with as big a bang as possible (a la shai gar's farewell on INTPc). I guess I can't really know... but I don't think "how much harm could he do?" is a good way of looking at it.

 

[Sugarpop]

....and is that a bad thing? I don't actually much like the bullshit threads, I'd rather have discussions...

Bullshit is good. It feeds the dung beetles of creativity.

 

[Seducer of the Homeless]

well said

 

[Wisp]

I'd like to think my creativity doesn't come from dung beetles... @_@

 

[Kuu]

I'd like to think my creativity doesn't come from dung beetles... @_@

denial...

 

[Sapphire Harp]

I personally found myself visiting the forum less because of his constant and ever present comments - so few of which I found were worth reading. If you are going to let him back, I'd greatly appreciate the restricted to certain sections idea.
​

 

[Chimera]

In my opinion, Face was definitely a troll. Hir posts ended up being obnoxious. Personally I think s/he should be permanantely banned or given a specific part of the forum to post in. I won't complain if you allow hir back into the main forum though--if that happens, I'll probably just end up adding hir to my ignored list, and see how that works out. :P
​

 

[inquiringF]

Face looks like a clinical psychopath.

 

[Melkor]

Sugarpop?

You have gained my respect...a little at least...

I miss face..she is my princess which i must save......

 

[Sapphire Harp]

she is my princess which i must save......

Was it determined that Face was female? I didn't get the memo if it was... If not, I submit for consideration that Face hereafter only be referred to with gender-neutral pronouns.
​

 

[fullerene]

In my opinion, Face was definitely a troll. Hir posts ended up being obnoxious. Personally I think s/he should be permanantely banned or given a specific part of the forum to post in. I won't complain if you allow hir back into the main forum though--if that happens, I'll probably just end up adding hir to my ignored list, and see how that works out. :P
​

There's an ignore list?

shoot... I don't care what you all do with hir then

 

[inquiringF]

There's an ignore list?

shoot... I don't care what you all do with hir then

It is sensible to outlaw Face to a designated area or ban him indefinitely. Users should ignore a person when they are deprecating their content.

 

[cheese]

cryptonia:
People tend to let the derailments from noddy or AI slide (thought they were really no less widespread) just because they had a long history of thoughtful contributions and sensible conversation.
The problem would come with later on, when nobody would have any reason not to believe him if he says "I'm just having a little bit of fun."

What's the difference then? If Face's intention was really only to instigate and derail then there's a fundamental difference, but if it manifests the same as any other thoughtful poster with occasional social issues then 1) we can't tell for sure and 2) it's only our attitude towards the poster that creates the problem. If it isn't a troll, antagonistic attitudes could turn it into one out of spite. Personally I have not seen any strong evidence of malice on Face's part, though of course I haven't been here long.

I suggest a controlled second chance, with clear boundaries, and a conscious attempt at positive interaction. Perhaps if bonds are created Face's "fun" will be seen as just that. If they are created and then very clearly betrayed again, then a permanent ban would be in order.

Just my thoughts! I understand that I didn't see a lot of what happened behind the scenes.

 

[fullerene]

Yeah... that's fair. I really don't know what went on behind the scenes either... but I have no qualms about keeping him away for malicious intent, personally, because he told me in IRC that his purpose was to instigate people. Or, more precisely, that "one of the reasons" he "could be" acting the way he was was to see whether or not he could "find a way to make INTPs react emotionally" and "base their decisions on something subjective." Perhaps that's what he was doing, and perhaps not, but during our conversation he displayed more than enough intelligence to do something like that. I also wouldn't be surprised if he were using "I thought you guys never based decisions off of subjective things" as a passive-aggressive way to make everyone give him more time to be obnoxious.


Pardon me if I made this post before.... I wrote it, but think I decided not to post it because I don't want to set a precedence of people getting banned based on "some member told me privately that..." without a log or anything substantive to back it up. If it's a repeat--sorry. I'm between classes right now, so I really don't have the time to check. I'd rather not this get used as evidence against him (again, so as not to set the precedent)--but felt it was necessary to bring up in my defense, so you didn't think I was just jumping to conclusions or anything.


The difference, then, would be that if he's allowed back for some of the time, he could use that time to build up enough "serious time" to become permanently obnoxious, since he would have a serious-history to fall back on as a contribution. If the serious posts continue throughout the obnoxious time, then he would be just like any other thoughtful poster with occasional side-issues... but while the thoughtful poster may contribute occasionally and/or get bored of being obnoxious (that is, they leave some chance for reconciliation), a true-troll who bides his time a little bit has a lot more ability to argue that he should stay, even if he has no intention of contributing thoughtfully ever again.

 

[cheese]

Thanks for replying.

The difference, then, would be that if he's allowed back for some of the time, he could use that time to build up enough "serious time" to become permanently obnoxious, since he would have a serious-history to fall back on as a contribution. If the serious posts continue throughout the obnoxious time, then he would be just like any other thoughtful poster with occasional side-issues... but while the thoughtful poster may contribute occasionally and/or get bored of being obnoxious (that is, they leave some chance for reconciliation), a true-troll who bides his time a little bit has a lot more ability to argue that he should stay, even if he has no intention of contributing thoughtfully ever again.

I understood that point. I simply see no evidence of Face being a one-or-the-other poster. His posts seem to consist of a mix of both serious and facetious subject matter. His interactions with members are also not exclusively acrid, or even remotely so. I even remember reading some with implied sympathy in them. At the same time he goes off the rails a bit. This seems more like the normal poster we talked about than the single-minded troll bent on destruction, under the facade - possibly taking months to make believeable - of sincerity.

But perhaps he has been building this elaborate cover of normalcy since he joined and planned to reveal his true colours in the future, but could not resist making several gestures now. But honestly, how likely does this sound? He doesn't behave like a fanatic, or even like one in denial. There are lunatics like this in the world, I suppose, and we shouldn't rule out the possibility that Face is one. But that's exactly what it is, and it isn't even strongly supported by the evidence (in my opinion!). We should not let ourselves be blinded by confirmation bias. It's not a certainty, and worrying about him building up an arsenal of excuses after a significantly long period of worthy contributions doesn't seem necessary. Set the boundaries, attempt to establish bonds, and if the boundaries are broken the ban will be put in place. Providing the second chance is a good way for Face and the forum to grow, and regardless of the outcome we can be assured of at least some good posts!

 

[Inappropriate Behavior]

This is goint to sound harsh but....

I was without cable/internet for the past few days and reading the various threads that have emerged during that time, I can't say the quality has risen any in face's absence. Does the legacy linger? Perhaps, or it may just be one of those coincidences as I've noticed periods where we as a group don't have much profound to say. Nothing wrong with that. Hell, I'm usually a part of it. Just an observation.

I remember an old David Letterman gimmick where from time to time a chime would sound and a computerized voice would say "we are experiencing a lull". That self deprecating humor of Letterman's.

*ding*
We are experiencing a lull

 

[Sapphire Harp]

Face received an official warning for insulting members, various informal warnings and discussions with Ogion privately and on the irc, including being told to keep the spamming to the facn'feckn files after the first mass derailing.

Face lacked the two qualities I think required for open communication. Sincerity and respect.

Going way back to the beginning of the thread, there is evidence that Face will violate any conditionals that are given to him, sooner or later.
​

 

[cheese]

I don't believe there were any conditionals. Warnings are not the same as clearly-stated boundaries.

Again, I don't believe the second chance can hurt anyway. Building up good "history" will not matter if these boundaries are violated. And if the forum truly accepts Face as family I believe his spamming activities will not matter that much anyway (eg Melkor, Noddy). *[I think the problem here is he's relatively new, and perhaps took too many liberties with people in the beginning. If people were slowly eased into his different style of humour, he would join the ranks of acceptability and consequently so would his activities.] If this does not happen and his posting deteriorates to the point where he no longer says anything of worth then a ban will be in order.

This also relates to another point - I don't think Face's posts have deteriorated significantly. He seems to have a level enough amount of bullshit, and corresponding thoughtfulness. Modification of some of his behaviour - and of our attitudes towards him - would help; barring that, the "loving embrace of the INTP forum" would cover a multitude of sins.

*Not a properly fleshed-out thought yet.

 

[NoID10ts]

Jesus!

Attention whore that I have been on occassion around here, if I'd known really getting banned would have garned this much focus, I would have told you all to go fuck yourselves in post #1.

I PM'd Morgoth and told him to derail this shit, but as usual he gave it a half assed effort and then quit, the bastard.




Oh and hi. Hope you all have been doing okay without me.

 

[Inappropriate Behavior]

If you want something done right Noddy my boy, you have to do it yourself!