FacetiousPersona Banning

[Sapphire Harp]

Face received an official warning for insulting members, various informal warnings and discussions with Ogion privately and on the irc, including being told to keep the spamming to the facn'feckn files after the first mass derailing.

I personally told Face that their initial posting frenzy on joining the forum almost earned them an immediate ban...

Upon reflection, I think Face is actually getting his third chance here. The second chance was the time period between the official warning and the banning - however long that was.
​

Just personally: Neither of the two jokes you mentioned riled me particularly when I read them (back when they were posted). They seemed unusual, but especially with the second more like an identification with the label than an insult. Of course interpretations are subjective and so on.

I only mentioned the difference in the way a poster can be perceived because I thought it relevant to the discussion. Doubtless he was sometimes abrasive, but I also saw posts of sympathy and emotional connection. If someone takes a dislike to Face (especially easy during his introductory period, where he's still finding his feet especially in relating to other people) it will colour their readings of his post.

When all his posts are examined clinically, out of the moment it is easy to find many different interpretations. The emotional reaction only comes when experiencing the thread, not examining it. Face's posts always reminded me of the kind of jokes where all the form and content are humorous, but someone walks away feeling injured.

Unless Face convincingly explains his intentions, I think the moderators are forced to rely on the judgement of other people as Face's intent. Looking at this thread by itself, so far 13/20 who stated a clear feeling about his posts felt untoward intent in them. This is where your theory that Face's new/outsiderness would apply. I personally think it's an awful lot of people to all be misreading Face, but I do know that is moving into the point of popularity/cliques/unfairness, so I'll leave it at that.

Cheese, it seems like your arguments are taking us to a place where Face cannot be responsible for his own behavior. If that extreme is the case, I don't think it would be appropriate for Face to remain, either, as he cannot effectively control himself. It doesn't really matter whether it's being driven by selfish authority issues, a lack of acceptance, or the complete inability to judge how others would misperceive his activity. Whatever the cause, it seems to me that Face was warned of a cliff and chose to go straight for it.

* * *

It looks like the moderators have made a decision about things. Do you mind saying what your decision is?
​

 

[cheese]

I actually think you make a lot of sense. However at the same time I think this is a typical case of incommensurable perspectives (on whether or not Face has malicious intent). Only one will turn out right, but whatever the outcome I'm not sure if it vindicates either.

But actually, I am not trying to prove beyond all doubt that Face is innocent. I am merely trying to point out what seems to be a valid possibility, and suggest a working plan from there.

I am not arguing for Face to remain without conditions. Face should be subject to the same implicit rules/guidelines the rest of the members are. I started on this thread simply trying to point out an alternate way of viewing Face and his actions, and became increasingly convinced that he at least deserved another chance.

If his intentions are basically good he will at least attempt to stick to the clearly-stated boundaries I've suggested before. If they're not, we shall see. Presently I believe there isn't enough evidence to decide either way for a permanent ban, which is all I wish to point out. Face's return, if attended by certain conditions, will provide a fairer test.

Cheese, it seems like your arguments are taking us to a place where Face cannot be responsible for his own behavior. If that extreme is the case, I don't think it would be appropriate for Face to remain

My arguments may be approaching that place but they certainly haven't entered.
I believe we're all incapable of change on our own in some areas. It is necessary for us to be taught by others. I think this may be the case with some of Face's infractions. I could be wrong of course, but I am willing to experiment. If Face is continually unable to modify his behaviour to an acceptable point where he both retains his individuality and his membership in this forum, then action will have to be taken.

I am not suggesting we burden ourselves indefinitely with a pity case -a category we are probably unqualified to help with anyway - I am arguing for another chance, the possibility of which is what (I think) this thread is about. Hopefully with some guidance, especially from members like Cow who have, for whatever reason, taken a benevolent interest in him, Face will develop to the point where his value in the community will far outweigh any personal eccentricities he has (hopefully those, too, will be less abrasive). This is all predicated on the premise that Face is not a force of single-minded evil, and does not have malicious intent. The second (or third) chance is hence to test this premise, and if possible retain a valuable member.

I'm not sure what you're asking for in my decision, unless you're asking the mods? I have resolved to make an attempt to be friendly and open with Face, as well as encourage others to do so. If he puts a toe out of line we will try to coax him back. He is extremely intelligent, as other members have mentioned, and if my perspective on him is right shouldn't have too many problems understanding clear boundaries, barring emotional misunderstandings which is where he may need more advice.

 

[Sapphire Harp]

I'm not sure what you're asking for in my decision, unless you're asking the mods?

Yeah... that was asked towards the moderators.

Well, I'm satisfied with where the discussion has reached. Hopefully whatever happens now is good.
​

 

[Jesin]

(Cheese, why do you never use quote tags?)

 

[loveofreason]

It has been decided that there is not enough hard evidence to permaban Face.


The discussion has been really enlightening and hopefully reflecting on the issues raised here can help the forum move forward. Thanks for all the contributions.

 

[cheese]

(Cheese, why do you never use quote tags?)

I don't like the way they look when I'm typing.


Jesin:

(Cheese, why do you never use quote tags?)

Much better!

 

[cheese]

Sorry, final clarification:

The easiest way to explain my perspective on outsider/insider dynamics would be through racism. It's perfectly acceptable if a black man uses the term "nigger". But if a white man does - even in all friendliness, or as a joke - it's racist. The same is true here. Face was calling people niggers far too early in the game, when he wasn't yet familiar enough for people to understand he was saying it as a black man.

RE Da Blob's post:
Pardon me, I completely missed the point of that! I understand now, I think. You were elaborating on the issue of community acceptance and showing how personal acceptance is its prerequisite, I think. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Da Blob]

Sorry, final clarification:

The easiest way to explain my perspective on outsider/insider dynamics would be through racism. It's perfectly acceptable if a black man uses the term "nigger". But if a white man does - even in all friendliness, or as a joke - it's racist. The same is true here. Face was calling people niggers far too early in the game, when he wasn't yet familiar enough for people to understand he was saying it as a black man.

RE Da Blob's post:
Pardon me, I completely missed the point of that! I understand now, I think. You were elaborating on the issue of community acceptance and showing how personal acceptance is its prerequisite, I think. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Well, since I can't find the post, it lets you off for any correction. I'm just glad you got it... (whatever it was)

I just hope that the person who is the focus of this discussion is truly worthy of the loyalty that has been shown to it. If I had been been banned i doubt that anyone would have even noticed...

 

[Cegorach]

Da Blob:
If I had reason to believe you were innocent, I would fight against you being banned.
Oh, but please avoid it!
I'm not built for prolonged social exposure and really hate being in the spotlight.

 

[Da Blob]

Da Blob:
If I had reason to believe you were innocent, I would fight against you being banned.
Oh, but please avoid it!
I'm not built for prolonged social exposure and really hate being in the spotlight.

Well, I lost my innocence, decades ago...

Actually you look good in the Spotlight, you should learn to enjoy it, just realize that being the center of attention is not all it is cracked up to be (ask a certain person about that)

Besides we all actually enjoy it when we, persona, provide a good performance in our roles upon the stage of life..

 

[cheese]

I defend where it seems appropriate as well.

 

[hopefulmonster]

I appreciate the mods banning that nick and discussing it here. I've been around the internet for longer than a lot of the posters here have been alive. I can't say that I'm an expert on trolling, but you have to be careful about putting up with too much of it. It's fine if it only happens occasionally, but FP was clearly a person who was obsessed with destroying this community. His suicidal avatar was also a good indication of his intentions. And lets not start psychoanalyzing people based on their avatars.

What you have to understand is that sociopathic behavior exists on the internet, just like it does in the real world. I think most of the people on this board (myself included) don't really understand the motivations of a full-bore troll. We like to think that people are generally honest like ourselves, but the truth is that some people aren't. They live to draw attention to themselves and have no qualms about making everyone else miserable.

I think the key is that people need to be generally honest for a site like this to work. If someone is constantly posting red herrings, then they can ultimately destroy a messageboard. I think if the mods notice that a poster is being repeatedly dishonest, then they should be banned.

Really now FP is a sociopath hellbent on ruining this forum? I realize we INTPs like to search for hidden agendas but I believe that is a bit of a stretch. I dunno maybe (s)he just had piss poor social skills and was trying to be funny?

*this is not directed at you* I'm surprised to see so many disparaging comments about "young people"; surely we INTPs know better then to dismiss people because of something as silly as age. I've seen young sages and old fools...existing is not much of an accomplishment...hell algae is 10x better at it then humans in general.

 

[hopefulmonster]

I appreciate the mods banning that nick and discussing it here. I've been around the internet for longer than a lot of the posters here have been alive. I can't say that I'm an expert on trolling, but you have to be careful about putting up with too much of it. It's fine if it only happens occasionally, but FP was clearly a person who was obsessed with destroying this community. His suicidal avatar was also a good indication of his intentions.

What you have to understand is that sociopathic behavior exists on the internet, just like it does in the real world. I think most of the people on this board (myself included) don't really understand the motivations of a full-bore troll. We like to think that people are generally honest like ourselves, but the truth is that some people aren't. They live to draw attention to themselves and have no qualms about making everyone else miserable.

I think the key is that people need to be generally honest for a site like this to work. If someone is constantly posting red herrings, then they can ultimately destroy a messageboard. I think if the mods notice that a poster is being repeatedly dishonest, then they should be banned.

Really now FP is a sociopath hellbent on ruining this forum? I realize we INTPs like to search for hidden agendas but I believe that is a bit of a stretch. I dunno maybe (s)he just had piss poor social skills and was trying to be funny? And psychoanalyzing people based on their avatars? I have a cat on my lap what do you make of that? Am I into bestiality or do I just like cats?

*this is not directed at you* I'm surprised to see so many disparaging comments about "young people"; surely we INTPs know better then to dismiss people because of something as silly as age. I've seen young sages and old fools...existing is not much of an accomplishment hell we should all be bowing down to algae if it was.

 

[FF]

I can't stand FP's avatar.

It's wrong on so many levels.

 

[FF]

I can't stand FP's avatar.

It's wrong on so many levels.

Ohh, he changed it.

But this one is even worse!

 

[FacetiousPersona]

Ohh, he changed it.

But this one is even worse!

What will please you?!

 

[Melkor]

A picture of your pretty face smiling happily!


That, or a picture of shrek!


They amount to much the same!

 

[Oblivious]

I personally find it a little difficult to get angry with a person who has stated on multiple occasions that he/she will endeavor to make people angry.

Then again I can watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmOf_llRidg and genuinely chuckle in amusement despite feeling a little creeped out. Emotional detachment is such a carnival sometimes.

Again, I understand the moderators' actions with regards to FP undermining the forum system by deluging threads with pretty pointless posts. That was a practical problem which perhaps justified a ban to facilitate a solution.

My problem is, that if FP's stated goal was to piss people off, would we not be playing into FP's hands by being pissed off? By detaching ourselves from the trolling and denying FP the pleasure of our anger, would we not be dealing a greater 'blow'? Or is this just a carefully constructed ploy so that FP can continue to wreak havoc uncontested?

In short, I understand FP's banning with regards to the semantics of the forum, just not the emotional outburst.

 

[Inappropriate Behavior]

Shrek or DONKEY!?

Donkey = Jackass right?

Edit: Oblivious video gives me headache.

 

[Melkor]

Hrm..good point...


-licks an ice-crema thoughtfully-

 

[cheese]

Oblivious:
Good points.

Or is this just a carefully constructed ploy so that FP can continue to wreak havoc uncontested?

But I wonder about this one. Denying it our emotions should have no effect on a banning decision. This decision could be made on a purely rational basis.
Also, I am curious what the motivation of a troll would be if not to gain emotional reaction or attention. A double wool-pulling like that would only allow it to enjoy the form (thread-disruption) without the actual substance, which presumably defeats its purpose.

 

[Oblivious]

That's why it seems strange to me. Your post summed it up.

To reiterate what I said, I understand and view FP's banning as a semantic action to a semantic problem in FP's interaction with the structure of the forum. I could relate it to troubleshooting a circuit board.

On another hand, FP's posts seem so overt, transparent and honest looking in their attempts to offend and wound that they seem almost naive to me. Even Dissident is calling FP predictable. Is FP really trying to offend people or make them laugh? It's just in the pure and innocent nature of intps here to take FP at face value (LOOK AT ME I MAKE PUN) and actually get offended.

I do regret deeply that people are getting offended, and this has geniunely soured some threads I've seen, but on some level I cannot help but be profoundly amused. As sociopathic as that may make me sound.

 

[FacetiousPersona]

I personally find it a little difficult to get angry with a person who has stated on multiple occasions that he/she will endeavor to make people angry.

Then again I can watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmOf_llRidg and genuinely chuckle in amusement despite feeling a little creeped out. Emotional detachment is such a carnival sometimes.

Again, I understand the moderators' actions with regards to FP undermining the forum system by deluging threads with pretty pointless posts. That was a practical problem which perhaps justified a ban to facilitate a solution.

My problem is, that if FP's stated goal was to piss people off, would we not be playing into FP's hands by being pissed off? By detaching ourselves from the trolling and denying FP the pleasure of our anger, would we not be dealing a greater 'blow'? Or is this just a carefully constructed ploy so that FP can continue to wreak havoc uncontested?

In short, I understand FP's banning with regards to the semantics of the forum, just not the emotional outburst.

I'm not dead.

 

[cheese]

Oblivious:
I mentioned that point because I didn't think it particularly relevant, being an extremely remote possibility.
I understand what you mean, I think, and respond the same way to its posts. The problem resulting in this thread was the multitude of possible interpretations and the subsequent uncomfortable interplay this had with a ruling based on ideals which had never actually been made explicit. A second chance allows the formal, technical expression of rules such that any second purely semantical banning will be justified as it follows mutual understanding of concrete boundaries.

This is how I understand it so far, anyway. (I agree with you, in case it isn't clear!)

 

[FacetiousPersona]

I'm a free duckling.

 

[echoplex]

It's just in the pure and innocent nature of intps here to take FP at face value (LOOK AT ME I MAKE PUN) and actually get offended.

Never take anything at face value. That's what those dense sensors do.

 

[FacetiousPersona]

Never take anything at face value. That's what those dense sensors do.

Never take the Face for only her face.

 

[cheese]

I found this very interesting and illuminating:

"They are only trolling when they are motivated by a program of malice rather than ignorance or bias. This requires a judgment of the personal motivation for another's action. Such a judgment can never be made with anything approaching certainty. This fact should always be kept in mind when one is tempted to label someone a troll."

"When you try to decide if someone is a troll, strive to assume they are not. Explain errors politely and reasonably; point them towards policies, the manual of style and relevant past discussions. Do not conclude they are a troll until they have shown complete inability or unwillingness to listen to reason or to moderate their position based upon the input of others. Even in that case, it is likely better to remain silent and let others conclude the obvious instead of calling someone a troll and creating even more mayhem. It is better to humor a troll for too long than to drive away a sincere but misguided user."

- from a wikipedia article
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/What_is_a_troll%3F

"Application of the term troll is highly subjective."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)


I thought perhaps some information on trolling could be useful for future reference and was unsure where to post the links. It's straightforward and easily digested.

 

[Cegorach]

This thread was fun... We should try to ban someone again!

<-- I vote him. He hasn't smiled once since I found this forum!

....Oh, this was a serious thread wasn't it... Eh well, I never got the hang of making thoughtful comments...


(Great links cheese.)

 

[echoplex]

Never take the Face for only her face.

Or his face...

This thread was fun... We should try to ban someone again!

We should ban people randomly and then have discussions as to whether it was fair or not, all while discussing how much we hate that person and what we think makes them so contemptible. We'll then divide into factions of both pro- and anti- the banned poster, so that we may argue passionately our side of the issue.

Apparently it can be great fun.

 

[Cegorach]

I already have a plan to make this interesting!

First I'll condemn the unrighteous abominations and request their immediate removal, then shortly after I've unveiled their unforgivable heresy I'll bounce over to the other side and refute all of my previous evidence, showing that they are, in fact, responsible for all of the compassion in this forum. NO. The world. Then I'll sacrifice all of my previous followers and create a new religion based around the person who was almost banned and call them "The Living Saint of INTPForum"....

Sound good?!

 

[echoplex]

All that sacrificing sounds messy. I'd have to be sure never to be your follower just to be safe.

 

[cheese]

Great reply Cow

echo, we've already got factions. Dinos and everyone else.

Which side are you on?

 

[Cegorach]

As you can see, I'm on the Dino side.

What, You think my avatar is human?!

...Well, erm... Ah, I'm eating a human child! Yum Yum....
Oh, and that's not a zipper it's a... a... um... damn.

 

[cheese]

Never trust a human in dino's clothing

But if you choose to be loyal to us we will permit you to impale yourself on our spikes!

 

[Cegorach]

Well... I really do enjoy being impaled on spikes.

...Hey, that isn't a sexual innuendo is it?!

 

[cheese]

*slips money into Cow's hoof*

Of course not!

 

[Cegorach]

Sooo Err...
Unless you're swiss cheese, I don't know how to... um... impale you...

 

[Melkor]

Well...this is certainley interesting, in a scary way...

 

[echoplex]

Which side are you on?

I'd have to go with the "everyone else" side at this time, although it's possible I would side with the dinos if they could prove their superiority to me. I am thus far unconvinced of anything other than how annoying and ugly they are.

 

[cheese]

IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT TO ALL DINOS:

echoplex needs to die.




Cow:
MAKE me into swiss cheese.

 

[echoplex]

I am surprised you haven't tried to prove your superiority to me. I am open to the idea. I have always thought dinos had potential, despite their track record of mass extinction and crappy movies.

 

[FacetiousPersona]

I am surprised you haven't tried to prove your superiority to me. I am open to the idea. I have always thought dinos had potential, despite their track record of mass extinction and crappy movies.

Jurassic Park was awesome.

 

[Cegorach]

cheese:
I will please the cheese with great ease!


echoplex:
Duh... Dinos Don't Debate! Dumbass!

 

[echoplex]

Jurassic Park was awesome.

I suppose it was. There are other dino movies that were not so great, and the whole dino movie thing got annoying to me after a while. I guess I forgot how cool it was at the time.

Duh... Dinos Don't Debate! Dumbass!

oops, I forgot the 5 Ds. When you evolve a brain, I will consider joining your side.

 

[cheese]

Who cares about brains when you have BRAWN!

Cow:
I am easy...............er, easily pleased!

 

[echoplex]

The plan was simple. Humans would rule the world for a while, until they were ultimately enslaved for all eternity by the robots they created. This plan made sense and was generally agreed upon by robots. Now, you silly brawny dino-snores want to butt in and mess things up. But ask yourself this, what are your sharp teeth and giant bodies really compensating for?

(small P-ness maybe?)

 

[Deleted member 1424]

The robot, dinos and humans fight ceaselessly in ignorance. Their willingness to entertain mundane conflicts, causes all three races to be caught off guard. A meteorite crashes into the earth destroying nearly everything. You all could have done something to stop it, but you were too busy baiting each other. The earth is soon dominated by an alien virus that takes control of any survivors you might have had. Jenova has arrived.

side note: I am currently accepting applications for mindslaves. Must be willing to wear a black cloak and mutter incoherently at all times.

 

[Red Mage]

The robot, dinos and humans fight ceaselessly in ignorance. Their willingness to entertain mundane conflicts, causes all three races to be caught off guard. A meteorite crashes into the earth destroying nearly everything. You all could have done something to stop it, but you were too busy baiting each other. The earth is soon dominated by an alien virus; that takes control of any survivors you might have had. Jenova has arrived.

side note: I am currently accepting applications for mindslaves. Must be willing to wear a black cloak and mutter incoherently at all times.

Finally a cause I can get behind! Mindslave? Yes please! Black cloak? Hells yes! Muttering incoherently? Fluffing frushing mmmrrmms ysssss!

 

[FacetiousPersona]

The truth is that I orchestrated the entire conflcit to distract all of you. I was riding the meteorite as it approached to kill everyone with a grin.