INTP terrible at algebra

[james]

Is anyone else here terrible at algebra? I hated it. I could to it but man I hated it with a passion. Just wasn't exciting I guess, not imaginative I dunno, maybe my teachers were bad because I know some mathematics are pretty interesting.

Anyway I thought I'd ask because once I found out I was INTP I kinda wondered why I hated math. I expected an INTP to be into that kind of thing.

 

[Jesin]

It depends on the teacher.

I'm taking AP Calc BC right now. It's fun.

 

[spockguy]

Algebra, the way my teachers taught throughout highschool, was extraordinarily straight forward, and had a large emphasis on rote learning. Anything that is taught in a way that has no emphasis on emperical investigation, but is taught on the basis of memorization, I'll despise. So basically everything taught in public schools =).

Oh, and I'm horrid at math. If it was taught to me in a theoretical, and/or highly empirical/applicable way where I'm encouraged to investigate its uses beyond acing a test, then I'm sure I'd love it.

 

[james]

Yeah that's kind of how I feel, no real depth or discovery, just memorization. That makes sense thanks.

I think I might actually be just bad at math though. I like history and English and philosophy and what not. I tend to not like sciences, not the humanities.

 

[Reverse Transcriptase]

It depends on the teacher.

I'm taking AP Calc BC right now. It's fun.

I got a 5 on the test. You should do fine. It also helps to get more college credits.

As for algebra... I dunno. Once you understand the formulas, you can do anything with them. Just learn the formulas and you'll be good.

The way I learned the formulas was that I'd program them into my graphing calculator. The programming software was kind of difficult, so it'd take a lot of understanding of the formula to actually do it. It also made the homework go by much faster, and if the teacher wasn't paying attention I'd use the programs on the test.

 

[Decaf]

I was first exposed to algebra in 8th grade and in the first quarter, I had 19 missing assignments. I barely scraped by with C's for my semester grades. It was especially depressing considering I was moved to Algebra because my General Math grade was somewhere like 113% (I did every assignment, including extra credit in class).

That being said, now I like algebra. I can't remember what math was like without it and I use it constantly in chemistry. It just took getting used to it.

 

[fullerene]

The way I learned the formulas was that I'd program them into my graphing calculator. The programming software was kind of difficult, so it'd take a lot of understanding of the formula to actually do it.

yes. that.


I actualy did pretty badly in algebra, too. I think I was in the low 80s all year long. Once you get used to it it's cake, though. Most of what helped me was when I got into trig and calc, the answers in the back of the book might not be in the same form as yours, so you end up doing a lot of algebra just to compare them. Eventually (if you keep doing math) it fades to the point where you don't even have to think to do even complicated algebraic stuff.

Math in high school sucks. Like others said, it's all rote memorization. Don't give up on it, and take a course in discrete math when you get to college. It exersizes your mind a lot more, it's a lot more fun, and you actually get to learn the topics.

 

[NoID10ts]

I liked Pre-Algebra so much I took it three times! I don't recall ever making it to Algebra.

 

[Reverse Transcriptase]

I liked Pre-Algebra so much I took it three times! I don't recall ever making it to Algebra.

Could you enroll yourself in the Algebra class at your school?

 

[Waterstiller]

I'm so sick of it. And I hate every math teacher I've ever had with the exception of one guy who looked exactly like Ned Flanders and was excited about it.

 

[Ermine]

I did comparatively bad in algebra (high B) because I was too imaginative. I kept on doing the problems in different ways than we were taught, and that got me in trouble since we were supposed to show how we got to the solution.

 

[Vrecknidj]

I enjoyed algebra because all the problems were like puzzles and I liked doing puzzles. I was terrible at geometry, and didn't really understand proofs until after I had taken calculus and finally had the opportunity to know what purpose proofs served.

Since about 1986, I've tutored math and science. Occasionally I've also taught math, including algebra, both at the high school and college level. I've always been able, in college classes, to teach the class the way I've wanted to. As a result, my students have generally done well. At the high school level, my students are far less likely to want to be there, and I'm far more constrained concerning how and what I'm allowed to teach. As such, my high school students typically do far worse than my college students do.

It's too bad too, because algebra doesn't have to be hard. Virtually anyone can learn it. However, classroom environments are not always conducive to learning, and can be particularly anathema to learning for many people.

Dave

 

[fullerene]

if no one minds me mini-hijacking this thread... how are your teaching methods constrained in a high school class?

 

[Anticitizen]

I found high school algebra to be the single most boring thing I'd ever experienced. I must've read many thousands of pages of literature in that class, and none of it having to do with mathematics. Guess that's why I took it three times.

 

[james]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought HS algebra was the worst. I was beginning to doubt my INTPness! Heavens!

 

[Jordan~]

I did algebra in different ways to how we were taught and got rewarded for it - I never learnt it, I just reconstructed all the rules from basic principles in the exams. I might have taken maths this year if it was all algebra, I love solving it.

 

[anemian]

My chem and physics teachers were awesome at teaching math... Or rather a vast majority of math teachers really really suck.

 

[Chimera]

_________
____________

I'm better at Algebra than I was in Geometry, I think...or maybe that's just because I switched from Honors to Merit (which was my own choice). I've never really like math very much, but I usually understand things pretty quickly and just have a hard time being consistent with that understanding.
My Algebra II teacher is also one of those guys who teaches with a firm "You do it this way because that's what the book says" mentality.
And I just took the first half of my final exam yesterday, wish me luck. ):

Side note: I've found that I'm pretty good at doing homework/practice problems accurately, but once I get a test, I just can't perform as well. Anyone else?
____________
_________

​

 

[grey matters]

I did really well in geometry and I loved it, It really clicked with me. Algebra on the other hand, didn't. I love history, theology and of course psychology. For me, these are puzzles that require a lot of intuition to figure out. I don't do well with computers and technical stuff like that.

 

[sagewolf]

When I learned algebra I had the greatest math teacher in the world ever (now I have the second greatest math teacher in the world ever, but she gets some slack because she's also one of the greatest Irish teachers in the world). So we flew through the material. Learning how it was useful wasn't really a problem: I was only about thirteen at the time so I was pretty much happy to go through school just doing the homework and getting the teachers to like me. After a while I started seeing how useful other parts of math were for solving things and basic algebra is needed for all those other things. So I liked it in Junior Cert because of that,

Now? Math is the only subject I have A) with a teacher I like, and B) which moves at a pace that doesn't leave me trying to drill a hole in the desk with my biro from sheer boredom. (As it's taught on the LC course, we have chapters and problems that link straight to real life, mainly because it's such a hard subject and they want to make it interesting so more people will take it. I don't know if that works on other people, though.)

 

[GarmGarf]

When I learned algebra I had the greatest math teacher in the world ever

Oh, so Oliver Murphy taught you then? :P

 

[sagewolf]

Hah! No-- BETTER. She ruled: she was brilliant fun. And we got three free classes every year because she always takes our school's participants in the Young Scientist Exhibition to Dublin. She worked really hard for us and we could see it clearly: I think that's why she has my respect.

 

[Spaekle]

I took Algebra last year and made an A in it both semesters, although that was mostly because:

First semester - my actual teacher was on maternity leave and we got stuck with some guy who didn't know what the hell he was doing; I did BS work all semester and made an A.

Second semester - we actually learned things this time around, although most of our grade came from homework that was just for participation points. Then it turned out the final was exactly like the study guide, multiple choice, and we could use calculators, so I got 100% on it.

I'm not particularly good with algebra; it's something I can do if I really put my mind to it, but I can usually only be bothered to think it through if I'm genuinely interested in it at the time, and that hardly ever happens. I don't like working out problems just for the sake of working out problems; it needs to be applied to something interesting for me. I also need to take my time with it, which leads to me being terrible at timed tests. :[

I thought it was odd that I'd be an INTP and dislike algebra too; I like languages, computer systems, and sciences, and pretty much anything else that relies on patterns and formulas, but algebra just doesn't do it for me.

I'm in Geometry this year, and I'm finding it a lot easier. Maybe it's because we're still going over easy things like "find the missing angle". Who knows!

 

[GarmGarf]

Hah! No-- BETTER. She ruled: she was brilliant fun. And we got three free classes every year because she always takes our school's participants in the Young Scientist Exhibition to Dublin. She worked really hard for us and we could see it clearly: I think that's why she has my respect.

Whoa, don't even try to trump Mr M: Mr Mathematics!

 

[Jesin]

When I learned algebra I had the greatest math teacher in the world ever

But he only teaches precalculus!

 

[sagewolf]

You cannot trump this woman. Trust me. She Ruled. She is half the reason I like math, and if she'd been taking a LC science subject this year, I would have taken it in a flash.

 

[james]

I thought it was odd that I'd be an INTP and dislike algebra too; I like languages, computer systems, and sciences, and pretty much anything else that relies on patterns and formulas, but algebra just doesn't do it for me.

I'm in Geometry this year, and I'm finding it a lot easier. Maybe it's because we're still going over easy things like "find the missing angle". Who knows!

Geometry is more meaningful I think. I didn't mind trigonometry either. I don't know that it is terribly more exciting but it's a bit more tangible. I can solve an algebra equation and have no idea what I accomplished. Geometry you can see what your doing better.

I actually just remember something interesting. My astronomy prof. in university who was not an INTP by any means was a math-whiz but hated algebra. I think basic level algebra is just not taught well or just must not be all that interesting to solve in and of itself.

 

[Anticitizen]

It's a complete and total snooze-fest to me. I decided once that the only way I was going to excel in mathematics was if I hooked electrodes up to the pleasure centers of my brain that would be triggered by correctly solving math problems.

 

[lucazin]

I never liked Geometry because it's seemed too much about draws to me and I'm really not good at it. Algebra was always a different path, my worst percentage until now was 85% or something like it but this year I've a terrible teacher who appreciate memorization and she wants all single thought I had written on the paper. I hate it...

 

[Kidege]

^ I get the "draws" bit. Geometry was too much about visualisation for me to like it.

I was pretty good at algebra and I had a decent teacher. Not the most exciting guy in the world but he tried to make his explanations clear. It was simply logic with some memorization that I gradually learned to accept, since it became clear that the formulae were just a tool.

Unfortunately I had to learn calculus in a very dry manner. Completely unrelated to its applications.

Drat. The last time I really ENJOYED maths was with basic arithmetic. But I learned those the Montessori way, so I lucked out.

 

[Aces High]

As Jesin mentioned, it greatly depends on the teacher. I was lucky to have a very good algebra teacher. He was always good at giving examples and practical applications for what he taught. Any branch of mathematics becomes boring if the teacher is simply teaching to the test and giving a lot of "busy work". I'm currently taking trigonometry and while I do well at it, it isn't too enjoyable. We are currently working on transformations of functions which I have yet to find a practical application for. Although it isn't required, I'm considering taking calculus next year because it is taught by the aforementioned algebra teacher.

 

[Jesin]

Drat. The last time I really ENJOYED maths was with basic arithmetic. But I learned those the Montessori way, so I lucked out.

!!!

I was in a Montessori school through 2nd grade, and I hated arithmetic! Now I'm in Calculus and it's one of my favorite subjects!

 

[Anling]

I have enjoyed almost every math class I've ever had. The one I didn't wasn't because of the subject but the teacher. The problems, they're all puzzles. My brain cannot leave them alone until they are solved. Sometimes I would even continue doing homework in my sleep; when I woke up I wasn't quite sure what I had and had not actually finished.

 

[Vrecknidj]

if no one minds me mini-hijacking this thread... how are your teaching methods constrained in a high school class?

The State tells me what topics I must cover, the administration tells me which students I must allow in my classroom, the head of my department tells me which materials I may use, etc.

One of the many reasons my wife and I homeschooled our kids.



Dave

 

[Vrecknidj]

The problems, they're all puzzles. My brain cannot leave them alone until they are solved. Sometimes I would even continue doing homework in my sleep; when I woke up I wasn't quite sure what I had and had not actually finished.

Same with me. When I was an undergraduate student, I would often continue solving problems in my sleep (particularly calculus, but also linear algebra, chemistry or physics).

Later, I kept a calculus book next to my bed. At night, if I didn't want to read, I'd work a few tricky problems, just for fun, because the calc book was basically a huge puzzle book for me.

Dave

 

[Anling]

Same with me. When I was an undergraduate student, I would often continue solving problems in my sleep (particularly calculus, but also linear algebra, chemistry or physics).

Dave

Glad to know I'm not alone in that.

 

[Fiaria]

Im terrible at math in general which is strange because Im ok at things like chemistry. Algebra was not one of my strong suits and Trig is DEFINATELY not one of my strong suits .

NoID10ts, you made me laugh. I liked algebra 2 so much I took it twice. One of the times was over the summer which proves my love for it ;D

 

[figaro_black]

I think I would have loved math, and algebra, if it was not for how it was and is still taught in Swedish schools. Of some reason teachers imagine that the best way to teach math is by subjecting the children to these silly math books with problems and formulas in them. Mix the two and you get the right answer every time.

The thing is that for some children it probably works. But I was bored out of my mind after just a few problems. And nothing was helped by the fact that our math teachers did not understand why some of us actually wanted to understand the formulas we were applying. They could not see the difference between actually understanding the formula (why do two minuses become a plus, for example) and memorising it. For most of them it was the same thing...you don't need to understand what you are doing you just do it.

No, I was never a fan of mathematics in school. Though I can understand the thrill of solving really difficult problems on your own applying your own logic to them, something we were never allowed to do in school.

 

[sniktawekim]

Is anyone else here terrible at algebra? I hated it. I could to it but man I hated it with a passion. Just wasn't exciting I guess, not imaginative I dunno, maybe my teachers were bad because I know some mathematics are pretty interesting.

Anyway I thought I'd ask because once I found out I was INTP I kinda wondered why I hated math. I expected an INTP to be into that kind of thing.

this is very odd to me.
I greatly excelled in algebra, as it seemed to be as logical as logic can get. it seemed so straight forward, once i learned something in class, while the teacher was still explaining it to other students, i would go off into wonderland, and deduce new ideas using the rules i had jsut learned.. and .. BEHOLD: the new ideas i just "invented" are the next ideas the teacher talks about.
the only problem i ever had with algebra was the tedious repetitive homework.

you being bad at algebra makes (im by no means trying to insult you, you are probably much better than me in other areas) me think that either you arent an intp, or you arent as logically gifted as most intps..

maybe you are a little less t than most intps.. maybe a little more F? you could probably understand feelings better than I.

 

[Cogwulf]

I think with algebra, INTPs need to understand how functions work before they can use them.

 

[Firehazard159]

I had a miserable high school experience with most classes, but especially math. I had an extremely dogmatic, cruel teacher that required your full attention on her for the entire class, no working on assignments in class. You had to sit and listen to her terrible grammar, extremely bad lisp, and extremely poor teacher skills, along with a horrible attitude towards students and extreme emotional irrationality. A literal nightmare, and I couldn't get the other teacher, that was loved and appreciated by just about everyone. I ended up scraping by with a C, I never turned in any assignments (as I would only do what I could work on while I was in school, so most assignments were incomplete, or simply not turned in.) So, I hated algebra, and I had her again for advanced algebra. Then I took geometry, and it was cake. Had the wrestling coach as our teacher, and he'd let us work in calss, was excited to work with students, knowledgeable, could talk properly, and made class great. Needless to say, easy A. Having such a bad algebra teacher shut down any desire I had to pursue any higher difficulty mathematics classes, as well as destroyed a lot of confidence I had. I dont' see how teachers like that hold their jobs.

 

[SEPKA]

I have a great teacher for algebra in my secondary school. I think he turned me into an INTP (I used to be a ESTJ). He emphasis a lot of understanding, how people come up with theorem/axion, definition, etc. rather than calculation, and his assignment are hard and concept based.
I really think INTP is not bad at algebra, but rather would be getting low mark on algebra test in the school, due to the nature of the test being more of calculator-button-smashing rather than concept. It also depend a lot on the teacher.
@Firehazard: why don't you just find a way to purge her out? I once sue my horrible teacher and she lost her job because I find her really imcompetence.

 

[morricone]

I love math and always did so. Especially in college now, where you get down to the inner workings of math and logic.

 

[jsibley1]

I used to "suck" at math. I remember that from birth to half way through 8th grade I didn't care about math and I wasn't all that good at it. Then, almost like magic, I got it after moving 900 miles to another school. The new teacher wasn't the reason... she wasn't all that great at it herself. I don't know what happened... new wave of puberty changing my brain structure? Dunno.

But because I sucked at it before, I was one level below the advanced students. In 8th grade I was taking Pre-algebra while the more advanced kids took algebra. So, in my sophomore year of high school I doubled up... I took honors geometry and algebra II. Fast forward to my senior year I took AP Calculus and scored an easy 5 on the exam with a 98 average in the class. Math easily became my major in college.

Fast forward to today and I don't care as much about it anymore.

 

[Trebuchet]

It has been my experience that (except for people who are just anti-math) most people gravitate to either geometry or algebra. It looks like my preference for geometry is similar to many people here. That might be an INTP thing, since most people I have met prefer algebra and hate geometry.

I don't hate algebra, though. My dad is a brilliant math teacher, and I had some other good ones along the way, especially my HS Physics teacher who took the time to make sure everyone understood things, so eventually I mastered and enjoyed algebra as well. I've also taught it in vocational schools with great success.

I have a lot to say on the subject of math education, which I will mostly spare you. But I will say we need to get rid of the insane vocabulary. Don't "multiply by the multiplicative inverse" if you have an inconvenient coefficient. Move it across the equals and put it on the bottom. Get rid of set theory in HS, too. No one needs to know if something is in the set of counting numbers, natural numbers, whole numbers, rational numbers, or real numbers. Who cares? If someone cares, let them explore it, but no one needs that stuff on their final exams.

@figaro_black: I have a book called Mathematics: From the Birth of Numbers by Jan Gullberg, a very dense book filled with love of math, fun, and history, as well as great explanations of everything. The author is from Sweden, and many times he writes about his frustration with the mathematical education in Sweden. A short example, on the topic of New Math and Set Theory is

An idea that was meant to simplify in fact complicated matters. A dull but useful drill was replaced by a dull and useless drill. Sadly, in Sweden and other countries, the New Math created a generation with sometimes very limited residual arithmetic skill. p. 232​

There are a lot of other comments like that. So you are not alone in your complaint. You might want to check out the book. It is actually a lot of fun to look through.

 

[SEPKA]

I got to disagree with Trebuchet in Maths education in high school. High school is meant to provide students with general skill that are useful for more learning, rather than specific skill for work.
Set theory is at the foundation of many maths model. If student do not learn about it, they will not know why certain equation work, why some theory hold, etc. They would stuck to use just what they learn only, and are unable to derive anything new by themselves.
I think the format of the final exams should be changed too. Instead of having an exams that reward those with the best penmanship and calculator-button-smash-ship, they should use large project that go deep into the understanding of mathematics foundation.

 

[Cassandra]

I prefer geometry and calculus to algebra. I tend to understand things better when they correspond to something spacially. When I was taking calculus, I also had AP Physics, so it all made sense together.

Any one else LOVE geometric (and algebraic) proofs? Proofs are amazing.

 

[Reverse Transcriptase]

Proofs can die in a fire! .'.

 

[Dormouse]

Algebra is my best friend... And math is one of the only things that can keep me focused for any length of time. I've always enjoyed it, even if it's just repetition. Dunno. It just calms me, or something.
( Honestly, when I'm upset I'll do math in my head. Helps balance my thoughts. )

 

[Trebuchet]

I got to disagree with Trebuchet in Maths education in high school. High school is meant to provide students with general skill that are useful for more learning, rather than specific skill for work.
Set theory is at the foundation of many maths model. If student do not learn about it, they will not know why certain equation work, why some theory hold, etc. They would stuck to use just what they learn only, and are unable to derive anything new by themselves.
I think the format of the final exams should be changed too. Instead of having an exams that reward those with the best penmanship and calculator-button-smash-ship, they should use large project that go deep into the understanding of mathematics foundation.

Fair enough Sepka. From your term "Maths" I am guessing you live in a different country from me. I hardly ever hear anyone in the US using the plural that way. In California, we pay more for education per student than most of our other states, yet have some of the lowest math scores. Something is seriously wrong here. I hope it isn't wrong where you are.

It would be lovely to be able to teach and test deep understanding of the foundations of mathematics. But the way things are taught here, few students ever see that deeply, and I would love it if that changed.

I think set theory is something that should come after all the other stuff. If you want to discuss infinite sets, let them stew over how weird it is that pi and the square root of 2 are irrational. Ask them questions about how many irrational numbers they think they are, and see if any of them catch on to the fact that there are different sizes of infinity. See if any of them can prove that root 2 is irrational, and let them work on it in teams for a while. Tell them the stories of the great geometers who first worked some of this stuff out. That is much more valuable, in my opinion, than memorizing different set names.

It isn't just high school where set theory is being taught, either. My daughter is in kindergarten and is bringing home Venn diagrams. She hasn't even had an epiphany yet about the profound nature of positional notation. She has seen examples of multiplication but clearly doesn't "get it" yet. It is fine that her class is talking about what makes things the same or different, but the formalism of a Venn diagram at her age seems stifling to me. She also has "math" pages where the teacher has them circle the object that is "above" or "inside" or whatever. It is all vocabulary, and clearly already boring to the 5-year-olds. I volunteer in the classroom so I know they don't enjoy this.

Where is the discovery, the deriving for herself? She can figure out how to do math for herself, as I know from giving her interesting problems and watching her have fun with them. Where is the lifelong love of learning, the satisfaction of mastering something hard?

California schools at least offer only rote, boring exercises. Math is fun, or at least it should be, and teaching set theory to young kids doesn't make things fun.