Do you guys suffer from depression?

[Jennywocky]

Trust me, I'm not in a drepression, I would know.

I don't think I said you were. *confused*

I've beeb very sad, crying for hours straight, but stopped. Went to school fought the people who fought me, and I fought how I felt. The point is that I fought, and I'm not saying I never thought "My god, why can't I just die?" But giving up or killing my self did never cross my mind

Good for you.

Like I said, it's based on a multiplicity of factors and cannot be reduced just to "being tough until things get better." I really try to grasp who someone is and what their situation is (and context) before I assess how appropriate their behavior is to that circumstance.

There are also all ages of people who get depressed for a variety of reasons. I am careful to differentiate between "teenage angst," depression of young adult's loss of a job, an elderly person's declining health or loss of a spouse, etc. Lots of different reasons to get depressed, and even age and maturity level factors into things. Basic responses might have some similarities, but some problems clear themselves up and others won't... some losses are bigger or more pervasive than others.

EDIT: Also I know judging them won't fix anything, but I feel, as this being a forum, that when people say something that should expect someone saying something else (as long as it's on topic) And at the point I felt like expressing how I felt depression =)

Uh... no, you didn't stick with "how you felt depression."

You talked about how you felt about OTHER people who experienced depression and handled it differently than you did.

If you had just talked about you and how you felt, I don't think anyone would have felt the need to comment on it.

Personally, it's fine that you said what you said; you just have to be prepared for others to respond in kind, out of fairness. Tit for tat, and all that... you open the can of worms, then you have to deal with it. That's all.

I have been close to depression, I think I have.. But I still find it weak, staying home because "everything is too tough" I do find that a weakness.

No, you gotta get out and fight.

I think the thing here though to remember is that some people need to stay at home for awhile to gather their strength and resources and sense of direction.

I'd be annoyed if someone sits at home for three years after losing a job and doesn't do squat to find one... or quits after a week.

I'm a lot more forgiving and encouraging if someone wipes out for a month into depression, then buckles down, gets their head together, and starts plodding forward.

You gotta flex for where people are.
Observe, analyze/assess, then pick a response that best benefits that person rather than just satisfies oneself.

EDIT: By the way. I never said LIFE was something to be fought through.. But Pain is something to be fought.

Pain has to be endured to get to the other side.
I'm really good at handling pain and still moving ahead.

But I had to learn some forgiveness when I dealt with one of my kids; I realized pain was a far bigger deal to him than to me. It frustrated me, but he needed more space, time, and encouragement because pain terrified him. (He's an ESFP. Pain is a big deal to those types, they always like to be positive.)

Again, blanket responses/criticisms do not work. These situations are individual and unique.

 

[pjoa09]

I have been close to depression, I think I have.. But I still find it weak, staying home because "everything is too tough" I do find that a weakness.
A saying that Extrovert is better than Introvert is just arrogant. And it's very subjective.

Don't tell me that being introvert is a bad thing, it's not. Thoughts are wonderful.. Having to depend on everyone around you is just as much a weakness as being consumed by your own thoughts.
And this is where I find myself being very lucky. As I'm am introvert, very introvert. But not 100%

And you, you are just arrogant..

EDIT: By the way. I never said LIFE was something to be fought through.. But Pain is something to be fought.

Whoa, never been called arrogant. honest. maybe a lack of communication on my part.

To be consumed is different than having. I get lost in myself often but to be consumed is when its too much, i was referring to myself.

I don't consider depression a sudden serious drop in self-esteem, its a realization that is incomplete and needs to be dealt with another one.

Getting out of the comfortable spot is always better. I am comfortable with introversion but I know that I need to be a bit more extroverted. I used to read books during lunch away from everyone else in middle school. By the end of High School I was somewhat comfortable eating at the cafeteria with my friends during lunch when its very crowded.

You have to express yourself once in a while, prevent your mind from consuming itself. Introversion and Extroversion just like anything else is never good at extreme amounts.

 

[Anthile]

I'm clinically depressed for about 3 years now. I'm not sad. But what makes me sad is that still people cannot distinguish between teenage angst, simple melancholia and real depression. None of these states is fun despite that people, including myself, often make fun out of angsty teenagers.

My own depression manifests itself mainly in avolition, apathy and the tendency to things more negative than they really are. Actually, I'm one of the few persons who can rationalize all of this so I have two contradicting world views in my head. One is how things really are and one is how the depression makes me watch things. It's as weird as it sounds. However, just because I can rationalize it doesn't mean I am able to control it. To describe it with a metaphor, it's like wearing a lead cape and I have learned to stand upright with it.

 

[Lobstrich]

There are some people and states of being I find pathetic. But others have been to depths of despair that most can only dream of (actually not even that), and I have immense respect for any one of these who can somehow survive it.

Oh and also, your post stinks and your attitude has potential to do harm - get some compassion.

My post stinks?
Sorry, It's not my problem that you decide to take it personal.
Non of it, is personal. I'm just answering a question which I got from several people and the topic itself. And I answer it truthfully, if I were to go
"It's all good" what would be the point of contributing with anything?
So wether you decide to take it personally or not, is not really my problem. Sorry

Also, you have to realise that I'm not trying to hurt people's feelings. I'm just, as I said.. Telling you guys what's on my mind.
And you should respect that, as the other guys have. They have given me input. And I am thankful for that. I have thought alot about it, I really have. And it helps to think about stuff. It opens your eyes.
Just saying "it stinks" is just as 'stinky' as you find my post.

 

[Lobstrich]

I don't think I said you were. *confused*

Good for you.

Like I said, it's based on a multiplicity of factors and cannot be reduced just to "being tough until things get better." I really try to grasp who someone is and what their situation is (and context) before I assess how appropriate their behavior is to that circumstance.

There are also all ages of people who get depressed for a variety of reasons. I am careful to differentiate between "teenage angst," depression of young adult's loss of a job, an elderly person's declining health or loss of a spouse, etc. Lots of different reasons to get depressed, and even age and maturity level factors into things. Basic responses might have some similarities, but some problems clear themselves up and others won't... some losses are bigger or more pervasive than others.

Uh... no, you didn't stick with "how you felt depression."

You talked about how you felt about OTHER people who experienced depression and handled it differently than you did.

If you had just talked about you and how you felt, I don't think anyone would have felt the need to comment on it.

Personally, it's fine that you said what you said; you just have to be prepared for others to respond in kind, out of fairness. Tit for tat, and all that... you open the can of worms, then you have to deal with it. That's all.


No, you gotta get out and fight.

I think the thing here though to remember is that some people need to stay at home for awhile to gather their strength and resources and sense of direction.

I'd be annoyed if someone sits at home for three years after losing a job and doesn't do squat to find one... or quits after a week.

I'm a lot more forgiving and encouraging if someone wipes out for a month into depression, then buckles down, gets their head together, and starts plodding forward.

You gotta flex for where people are.
Observe, analyze/assess, then pick a response that best benefits that person rather than just satisfies oneself.

Pain has to be endured to get to the other side.
I'm really good at handling pain and still moving ahead.

But I had to learn some forgiveness when I dealt with one of my kids; I realized pain was a far bigger deal to him than to me. It frustrated me, but he needed more space, time, and encouragement because pain terrified him. (He's an ESFP. Pain is a big deal to those types, they always like to be positive.)

Again, blanket responses/criticisms do not work. These situations are individual and unique.

(I have no idea how you guys do multiple quotes so I just quote all you said..

First I'd like to add that, I was indeed talking about how I felt about depression, Not how I felt depression, my bad.

And the part where you say I gotta get out and fight, endure pain, analyze. Open my mind, see things from different perspectives. Instead of just sitting home and whining.. That's what I've been saying all along, I think you misunderstood it, I never said that I acted like that. I said that I probably have been close to depression, but that's it. Then I said I think it's a weakness to just sit home and whine.

Oh, and trust me.. I LOVE people that gives me input, like you do. As you can read in my response to "Banana" Input is just another source to "improve" yourself, makes you think broaden your horizon, open your eyes.
It's great!

I'm not sure what you mean about "blanket responses" Is that on my part? What is it exactly, hehe.

EDIT: Nevermind, just thought about it. You're just saying generalization do not work, I think. Hehe.

 

[Lobstrich]

Whoa, never been called arrogant. honest. maybe a lack of communication on my part.

You have to express yourself once in a while, prevent your mind from consuming itself. Introversion and Extroversion just like anything else is never good at extreme amounts.

Oh, my bad then. But yes obviously, everything is to be in bite sizes. Nothing is good when it's too much. But I never said that I was 100% Introverted, did i? =)

EDIT: I've was closed up most of my elementary school (We have one school, 1-9th grade, which then gives you option to take advanced schools, which for me is culinary school right now. Since I want to be a cook, and carpenters go to a carpenter school)

I didn't have many friends, and the ones I got. Just thought I was a douchebag like you guys do, haha. Because I've been a INTP all my life. And I've only just realised what "INTP" Is.. The whole concept of personality types. And my god! Am I happy that I found out about "INTP" Because I would be lying if I said I'd never had the thought "Is it really something with me that's wrong?"
And finding out about INTP, was probably one of the hugest things to happen in my life. I have a "reason" to why I am as I am.
Why I am very cold and cynical sometimes. Why I argue so much, why I cant see the point in parties, etc.

And now I forgot what my point in all this was. I was getting to a point. I'll re-edit if I come across it, haha =P

 

[Lobstrich]

I'm clinically depressed for about 3 years now. I'm not sad. But what makes me sad is that still people cannot distinguish between teenage angst, simple melancholia and real depression. None of these states is fun despite that people, including myself, often make fun out of angsty teenagers.

Well, help me out then.. I see eveything as whine.. I really do, and as alot of people have assumed. I have probably been in a depression myself (I doubt it) But I have been really close, no doubt about that.. At all.

And yes, obviously teenage angst and 'real depression' is two different things.
But how is not just you who are weak?
I said I before "Whine is whine, Whiners are whiners" And how does your whine differentiate from a teenagers whine? It's all just whining!

You know? I hope you can see it from my perspective. Because I'm not saying it to be a douche. I'm saying it because that's how I think.
I've been whining myself, never said I never whined. But as I said in my first post. I don't think we have the right.

 

[Wish]

Well, help me out then.. I see eveything as whine.. I really do, and as alot of people have assumed. I have probably been in a depression myself (I doubt it) But I have been really close, no doubt about that.. At all.

And yes, obviously teenage angst and 'real depression' is two different things.
But how is not just you who are weak?
I said I before "Whine is whine, Whiners are whiners" And how does your whine differentiate from a teenagers whine? It's all just whining!

You know? I hope you can see it from my perspective. Because I'm not saying it to be a douche. I'm saying it because that's how I think.
I've been whining myself, never said I never whined. But as I said in my first post. I don't think we have the right.

Why do you assume that anyone who talks about their experience with depression (or emotions in general it seems) is necessarily 'whining' about it?

As far as teenage vs. 'real' depression - it would seem that teenage angst is founded more on immature beliefs and/or convictions or hormonal imbalance. When discussing adult depression (though hormonal imbalance may still play a role) I think it is usually assumed that their reasons for being depressed, or rather reasons for not seeing the 'silver lining' have been developed through life experiences and personal realizations. Thus, it makes sense that this would be considered more authentic and more difficult to overcome.

So bringing that back to whining..a teenager complaining about not being understood or what have you could, in some cases, be considered a whiner because their views are inexperienced and/or undeveloped. Of course, even in these cases, one must assume that the teenager's convictions are poor.

Better yet...here.. the definition(s) of whining:
1. To utter a plaintive, high-pitched, protracted sound, as in pain, fear, supplication, or complaint.
2. To complain or protest in a childish fashion.
3. To produce a sustained noise of relatively high pitch: jet engines whining.

So in the sense you're using it in, anyone that mentions their problems is necessarily complaining in a childish fashion. We think children whine because we know (or have reason to suspect) that their complaints are illogical/poorly developed/immature/etc. So, it makes sense that you believe those with depression who are simply addressing what it is they feel/think are whining if you believe their thought process illogical. However, most of these people are very mature and intelligent.

Of course, logic is completely subjective. You ask us (not necessarily the depressed but the forum in general, I suppose) to see things from your perspective (and I don't believe you to be a douche, this is just what your logic leads you to believe), but you fail to see things from the perspective of those that claim to suffer from depression. It is a completely different worldview and view of self. Someone suffering may say that your thought process is illogical and they would be just as justified as you are in claiming the logical high ground.

Anyway, I guess what I'm trying to say is that you are misusing the word 'whine' and are assuming that the depressed are unable to see your perspective. In fact, I would bet that almost every person that has been or is depressed has spent hours trying to make themselves believe what you said in your OP, so it would be safe to assume that they do indeed see your perspective, they just see it as short-sighted or not sufficiently encompassing, or, dare I say, immature?

 

[Lobstrich]

Why do you assume that anyone who talks about their experience with depression (or emotions in general it seems) is necessarily 'whining' about it?

As far as teenage vs. 'real' depression - it would seem that teenage angst is founded more on immature beliefs and/or convictions or hormonal imbalance. When discussing adult depression (though hormonal imbalance may still play a role) I think it is usually assumed that their reasons for being depressed, or rather reasons for not seeing the 'silver lining' have been developed through life experiences and personal realizations. Thus, it makes sense that this would be considered more authentic and more difficult to overcome.

So bringing that back to whining..a teenager complaining about not being understood or what have you could, in some cases, be considered a whiner because their views are inexperienced and/or undeveloped. Of course, even in these cases, one must assume that the teenager's convictions are poor.

Better yet...here.. the definition(s) of whining:
1. To utter a plaintive, high-pitched, protracted sound, as in pain, fear, supplication, or complaint.
2. To complain or protest in a childish fashion.
3. To produce a sustained noise of relatively high pitch: jet engines whining.

So in the sense you're using it in, anyone that mentions their problems is necessarily complaining in a childish fashion. We think children whine because we know (or have reason to suspect) that their complaints are illogical/poorly developed/immature/etc. So, it makes sense that you believe those with depression who are simply addressing what it is they feel/think are whining if you believe their thought process illogical. However, most of these people are very mature and intelligent.

Of course, logic is completely subjective. You ask us (not necessarily the depressed but the forum in general, I suppose) to see things from your perspective (and I don't believe you to be a douche, this is just what your logic leads you to believe), but you fail to see things from the perspective of those that claim to suffer from depression. It is a completely different worldview and view of self. Someone suffering may say that your thought process is illogical and they would be just as justified as you are in claiming the logical high ground.

Anyway, I guess what I'm trying to say is that you are misusing the word 'whine' and are assuming that the depressed are unable to see your perspective. In fact, I would bet that almost every person that has been or is depressed has spent hours trying to make themselves believe what you said in your OP, so it would be safe to assume that they do indeed see your perspective, they just see it as short-sighted or not sufficiently encompassing, or, dare I say, immature?

I guess you that you are right, but you take my use of "whine" to literal..
Me believing that depression "is a jet-engine sound" would just be plain dumb.
I just use it as a way of explaining how think depression is. And essentially I do think it's just immature complaints about how the world is wrong, and how you shouldn't be alive, and how everything is black, or too colorful, or the world is too good for you to be in etc. etc. etc. etc. (I used that 4 times because I want you to know that those were examples and not my short-sighted view of it.

Also, I do think that my view of depression is a bit immature it self.
I do judge it with a "blanket" as Jenny said. And that is wrong.

But then again, how could I do it any othe way? I think it's all the same.
Don't think I haven't read what you said, I understand what you're saying.. But I do believe that I'm seeing it from their perspective, I'm just not willing to 'accommodate' to that perpective, or so to speak. I think, as many have assumed. That I've been very close to a depression maybe in a depression (I don't think so myself. But others do, apparantly) Incl. my psychologist. she wanted me on anti depressants, which I refused. As I did not believe I had depression, as I at that point. Also saw it as a weakness.
So there must be a part in my head which 'knows' what depression is.

Also. If you are saying that many, probably all who have been in a depression have thought as me.. Why have they not actually done it?
Why did they just continue sitting in the couch for a month?
Why did they not go down to the store, with a smile?
Why did they not just start anew and be happy?
Is that not in itself a sign of weakness? A lack of will to continue even though everything seems so dark, so boring, so lost?

 

[Wish]

I guess you that you are right, but you take my use of "whine" to literal..
Me believing that depression "is a jet-engine sound" is just plain dumb.
I just use as a way of explaining how think depression is. And essentially I do think it's just immature complaints about how the world is wrong, and how you shouldn't be alive, and how everything is black, or too colorful, or the world is too good for you to be in etc. etc. etc. etc. (I used that 4 times because I want you to know that those were examples and not my short-sighted view of it.

Also, I do think that my view of depression is a bit immature it self.
I do judge it with a "blanket" as Jenny said. And that is wrong.

But then again, how could I do it any othe way? I think it's all the same.
Don't think I haven't read what you said, I understand what you're saying.. But I do believe that I'm seeing it from their perspective, I'm just not willing to 'accommodate' to that perpective, or so to speak. I think, as many have assumed. That I've been very close to a depression maybe in a depression (I don't think so myself. But others do, apparantly) Incl. my psychologist. she wanted me on anti depressants, which I refused. As I did not believe I had depression, as I at that point. Also saw it as a weakness.
So there must be a part in my head which 'knows' what depression is.

Also. If you are saying that many, probably all who have been in a depression have thought as me.. Why have they not actually done it?
Why did they just continue sitting in the couch for a month?
Why did they not go down to the store, with a smile?
Why did they not just start anew and be happy?
Is that not in itself a sign of weakness? A lack of will to continue even though everything seems so dark, so boring, so lost?

So I thought it was obvious I don't think you think depression is an engine sound - this is why I bolded the childish definition, and that was the only definition I talked about.

Also your examples of what a depressed person does or doesn't do are pretty immature. These are things I would expect someone with no experience on this matter to assume what depression is. Depression is much more complex and deep-rooted then simply hating the world for being bad to them or not giving them enough love. It has more to do with a person's place in the universe and them trying to make sense of what is undoubtedly a chaotic existence, and less with those rather vain examples.

And people that have pondered what you have said did or did not do those things (which are gross generalizations/stereotypes by the way) because they found it illogical or unfulfilling. See, you are assuming that what you believe is inherently correct (though you say you think otherwise), so it doesn't make sense to you that others haven't done the same. And it's not a sign of weakness, it's just a sign of what you believe weakness to be. Some would say there is weakness in not understanding separate points of view as just that - points of view, opinions, subjective rationale.

 

[Lobstrich]

So I thought it was obvious I don't think you think depression is an engine sound - this is why I bolded the childish definition, and that was the only definition I talked about.

Also your examples of what a depressed person does or doesn't do are pretty immature. These are things I would expect someone with no experience on this matter to assume what depression is. Depression is much more complex and deep-rooted then simply hating the world for being bad to them or not giving them enough love. It has more to do with a person's place in the universe and them trying to make sense of what is undoubtedly a chaotic existence, and less with those rather vain examples.

And people that have pondered what you have said did or did not do those things (which are gross generalizations/stereotypes by the way) because they found it illogical or unfulfilling. See, you are assuming that what you believe is inherently correct (though you say you think otherwise), so it doesn't make sense to you that others haven't done the same. And it's not a sign of weakness, it's just a sign of what you believe weakness to be. Some would say there is weakness in not understanding separate points of view as just that - points of view, opinions, subjective rationale.

Again, you take what I say to literal. It's all examples.
When I mentiond "the big bad world" I never said that's the only thing.
I was saying what I think of it to be in the end.
What is it in the end? Hapiness? Celebration? Whining?

Also I couldn't agree more with your very last part. About weakness being subjective! It is a very subjective. But there's always a point where peple just say "Pathetic" Or whatever they use to describe 'weakness'

(Again, these are examples! I don't think Happiness, Celebration OR whining is the only part of a depression, teenages angst, or a 'real depression. Or anything else for that matter)

 

[Mary]

Sometimes I fall into that state, but I'm pretty sure it's a chemical inbalance as I have a history of that in my family. My psychiatrist has been very helpful in keeping me from falling back into that state of mind.

 

[chaomon]

once in a while .. I think? I easily get depress but most of my depression is not really about me. I love reading and watching... so I get carried away on what I've read and seen, my depression on that can last for a week. Sometimes I also get depress when the people around me keeps forcing me to do something that I want, forcing me to be someone that I'm not. Humans around me is full of negativity w/c makes me more depress but I never shown nor tell my depression to anyone as much as possible I would like to look normal and happy every time I'm w/ them. I think my positivity look helps my Grandfather to relax more. He's always happy when he sees me. He always tell me that she loves looking at me cause I always look happy, and that is my inspiration. I mean I if other gave me negativity I have to bring them the positive out look in life. But sometimes when things were really are complicated I tend to break down, I also gets tired of pretending.

 

[JoeJoe]

I can only think of one time when I was really down, but that only lasted for a few days. And I only rememberd that, because I just saw that I started a thread with the title dePression.

During the end of last year I went to a psychiatrist. My reasons were, that I was fed up with never getting the things done I wanted to and thought a therapy might help me build some discipline. Well I didn't really achieve that much and I had the feeling, that the guy didn't really understand me. After the 5 exploratory (?) sessions I stopped going there and the matter of discipline wasn't as important after all. My mother is a doctor and so when we got the bill she saw that the guy diagnosed a depression. It was temporarily really annoying because whenever I was unmotivated my mother would say: "Hey, the psychiatrist diagnosed a depression, maybe you should really go to therapy. " X(

Well, I don't think I was suffering from depression. I have been procrastinating all my life. Then I actually want to change something and it's diagnosed as depression?! I mean WTF?

 

[nexion]

I'm fairly positive my mindset requires some depression to maintain homeostasis, for lack of a better word. However, generally it is good depression, and mild. However, sometimes I do get overly depressed and I get fairly negative about everything. However, during this time, I don't get many symptoms of depression other than a darkening of my mood (I still eat, I still care about my interests etc.) so I don't know if one would call that depression, probably only a change of mood. My general outlook of life is pretty bleak anyway.

Mostly, what I'm saying, is that yes, I have mild depression, but I don't really suffer from it.

 

[shadowdrums4]

So I've mentioned before that yes I have depression. Sometimes it gets really bad but I always try to pull myself out of it. My friends are pretty good at helping me with it. I've been told I should probably go to a doctor, but for right now at least, I control it with my drumming and my friends. *shrug*

Don't get me wrong I had some bad episodes, suicidal thoughts and days where I just didn't move. Ever since I researched a lot of what clinical depression is though, I recognize when those thought processes are starting and can usually pull myself out of it.

That insight from before about looking back and not being able to remember what happiness felt like and stuff, I know I've done it. In fact at one point I didn't drum or talk to anyone because I didn't think enjoyment would come anymore because looking back I didn't see it as that much better as how I was feeling at the time. When I was finally motivated to drum, I got better.

I'd say the best representation of my depressive states was in the first digimon series believe it or not. Matt and Sora went through this depression and basically they walked through this dark cave. The further they got, the more apathetic they got. Digimon-"Hey we should go back, aren't you worried about getting lost?" "Whatever" and then they sat down in a dark part of the cave and reflected. All they could reflect on was how much they had failed and basically dark thoughts. Then they were in a bubble sinking down into the dark. I'd say that's pretty accurate about what happens to me. At first I'm just thinking and remembering things. Then nothing really seems worth it to do. "I could get up and do my homework but what's the point?" or something like that. Now I recognize that and decide "Get up and do something before it gets bad" but before that I would start to "float" through thoughts and thoughts would slow down or stop all together. The next thing you know, the bad things are all that is real. I've only acted on it once, and it was the biggest mistake of my life. I think it was a weak moment in myself, simply because I'm "too logical for that" or I "need to get over it for those I care about." I guess like Lob I see it as weak to an extent; however, I only see it as weak out of myself. I'm annoyed if people are whining, but there is a distinction and I guess for me that distinction is "real problems" as opposed to just "My dad took away my xbox, I hate my life!"

I tend to keep my depression to myself because I don't want my friends to see those weak moments out of me. I also know they have their own lives and I don't like dumping my problems onto them. I also think I'm the only person who can help me out of it anyway, which is probably stupid but my experiences back me up on that.

I'll shut up now.

 

[snafupants]

I'm clinically depressed for about 3 years now. I'm not sad. But what makes me sad is that still people cannot distinguish between teenage angst, simple melancholia and real depression. None of these states is fun despite that people, including myself, often make fun out of angsty teenagers.

My own depression manifests itself mainly in avolition, apathy and the tendency to things more negative than they really are. Actually, I'm one of the few persons who can rationalize all of this so I have two contradicting world views in my head. One is how things really are and one is how the depression makes me watch things. It's as weird as it sounds. However, just because I can rationalize it doesn't mean I am able to control it. To describe it with a metaphor, it's like wearing a lead cape and I have learned to stand upright with it.

That pretty well articulates the cognitive ilk of depression which I battle from time to time. Like I was stuck in rush hour traffic the other day and this sense of despair washed over me. People rushing around without purpose - lusting after women or chasing a buck - and not really being cognizant of it. And I kept comparing my current environment of concrete, steel, compromised air, and intersections to prairies, forests, and fields that were there before industrialization started. Its childish and facile to think this way and a romanticized version of the past to be sure, but I cant help feeling like humans are botching everything and grasping at whatever they can as they fall. Its a complaint against everything and nothing and abstract and hard to articulate. Anyway, I can relate to that dynamic of your rational brain battling your emotional side; hopefully I havent bastardized what you were saying.

 

[quietgirl]

I've been "depressed" from the age of 14 but I don't really believe in depression. Thats when things started happening that were blatently wrong. I think that society is so messed up that anybody with any sensitivity left will feel it.

Everything is wrong in my life. None of it is my fault. If I was an idiot I would fight the people who make my life hell but there are better ways to live and refuse to change and destroy my principles because people want me to behave like them. Wherever there is good, people generally face opposition, misunderstanding and hate because they choose a way other than the mainstream. They are not mass brainwashed nightly in front of the TV. They do not suck up to people because they are rich or powerful. They cannot be frightened into being evil.

Hence they will feel sadness and will face some kind of oppression.

Or maybe thats just me and few other hundred million.

INTP's probably feel more "depressed" than other types because while others are busy competing in shallow areas, we already know that we have won in most areas because we do almost anything we want. If we wanted something that badly we could do a shallow job or make small talk to get on someones good side but we know that it's not worth it. Sometimes knowing that theres no competition kills the vibe. Everything is too easy and that makes it too hard to find reasons to start.

I get depressed because I cannot connect with anybody. I like older men because they are relatively more intelligent than men my age and understand my sense of humor. But then they want relationships and want to leave their wives etc. It's rubbish. I just want people to bounce ideas off. I am a woman and there are no women in London who share my outlook on life. The clued up ones are morally far off the track i.e. "bad girls" and are too street for me to share my true passions with. Although their honesty is refreshing and they do tend to see what most can't. The so called moral girls are mostly suppressed intellects who recharge by bitching about everybody. The "pretty girls" are fun but when it gets past shallow socialising, I have nothing in common with them. I don't ever chase guys and so that isolates me from 90% of single women. I can't relate to married women because they don't "go deep" anymore. They are mainly caught up with superficial things. The intelligent girls are usually too competitive for me to deal with. They are threatened by me even though I go out of my way to be kind to them. I can't win.

It's so weird. I guess I'm some kind of social freak. I just say what I think and am genuinly interested. I am extremely poilte. Yet people are so plastic and cardboard (fake and 2D). I periodically stop speaking to everybody and start again. I don't mean to do this but I get overloaded and need to step back. Then after enough months have passed, I go back into the world.

Relationships scare the life out of me in general. Men fall in love fast then try everything under the sun to get me to "show some emotion". I don't like games and men always seem to think that I'm a mystery to be unravelled. In reality my needs are so basic and I'm totally honest. If somethings wrong I will say otherwise I'm content. If I want to know something I will ask. Thats all. Yet people seem to go to great lengths to speculate about me and analyze everything I do. This makes me depressed. I feel like some kind of specimen in a jar. I'm depressed because I'd like sex with someone I love whenever I want with no games. I won't settle for less than that. Hence lonliness.

London is a shallow city. Even the so called intellectuals are just following the same tired old theories in the hope of impressing their research teams. They mope around trying to convince people that they are deep and introspective when they are really casting evil eyes at anybody who comes close to questioning them. Theres very little sense of seeking real knowledge. This isolates me even more.

I'm also depressed because I have no family. It helps to have people who love you genuinely so that you can reciprocate. I think about where they are and if they think about me. I fight hard to defend what they choose to do but in the end all I can do is either hate myself and agree with them or go it alone and tell myself that I don't need them. Both are wrong. But life isn't perfect.

INTP's see what most don't. Most of this world isn't worth looking at. People are so bad to one another. Hence our observations drive us to sadness.

 

[Lostwitheal]

That's quite a vent!

INTP's probably feel more "depressed" than other types because while others are busy competing in shallow areas, we already know that we have won in most areas because we do almost anything we want. If we wanted something that badly we could do a shallow job or make small talk to get on someones good side but we know that it's not worth it. Sometimes knowing that theres no competition kills the vibe. Everything is too easy and that makes it too hard to find reasons to start.

This particularly strikes a chord with me; being able to see through the superficial meaning to the underlying meaninglessness of societies sycophantic little games can be, well, discouraging.

That's probably an understatement.

Welcome to the forum though! That's quite a first post. We Brits seem to be somewhat of a rarity here from what I can make out, perhaps that's because MBTI is quite US-centric? I don't know.

I hope you find that you're looking for..

 

[quietgirl]

That's quite a vent!



This particularly strikes a chord with me; being able to see through the superficial meaning to the underlying meaninglessness of societies sycophantic little games can be, well, discouraging.

That's probably an understatement.

Welcome to the forum though! That's quite a first post. We Brits seem to be somewhat of a rarity here from what I can make out, perhaps that's because MBTI is quite US-centric? I don't know.

I hope you find that you're looking for..

I feel a bit over exposed now...it's really nice to meet you. I promise to never play any sycophantic games.

 

[cheese]

Anyone have any idea what the rates of depression are like in 3rd-world countries? Among subsistence farmers? Any other sort of lifestyle that requires constant discipline, physical activity and an active mindset to survive.

 

[quietgirl]

Anyone have any idea what the rates of depression are like in 3rd-world countries? Among subsistence farmers? Any other sort of lifestyle that requires constant discipline, physical activity and an active mindset to survive.

No, but I'm guessing it's virtually nothing. You have a very good point though. Thank you for waking me up.

 

[nexion]

That pretty well articulates the cognitive ilk of depression which I battle from time to time. Like I was stuck in rush hour traffic the other day and this sense of despair washed over me. People rushing around without purpose - lusting after women or chasing a buck - and not really being cognizant of it. And I kept comparing my current environment of concrete, steel, compromised air, and intersections to prairies, forests, and fields that were there before industrialization started. Its childish and facile to think this way and a romanticized version of the past to be sure, but I cant help feeling like humans are botching everything and grasping at whatever they can as they fall. Its a complaint against everything and nothing and abstract and hard to articulate. Anyway, I can relate to that dynamic of your rational brain battling your emotional side; hopefully I havent bastardized what you were saying.

I've been "depressed" from the age of 14 but I don't really believe in depression. Thats when things started happening that were blatently wrong. I think that society is so messed up that anybody with any sensitivity left will feel it.

Everything is wrong in my life. None of it is my fault. If I was an idiot I would fight the people who make my life hell but there are better ways to live and refuse to change and destroy my principles because people want me to behave like them. Wherever there is good, people generally face opposition, misunderstanding and hate because they choose a way other than the mainstream. They are not mass brainwashed nightly in front of the TV. They do not suck up to people because they are rich or powerful. They cannot be frightened into being evil.

Hence they will feel sadness and will face some kind of oppression.

Or maybe thats just me and few other hundred million.

INTP's probably feel more "depressed" than other types because while others are busy competing in shallow areas, we already know that we have won in most areas because we do almost anything we want. If we wanted something that badly we could do a shallow job or make small talk to get on someones good side but we know that it's not worth it. Sometimes knowing that theres no competition kills the vibe. Everything is too easy and that makes it too hard to find reasons to start.

I get depressed because I cannot connect with anybody. I like older men because they are relatively more intelligent than men my age and understand my sense of humor. But then they want relationships and want to leave their wives etc. It's rubbish. I just want people to bounce ideas off. I am a woman and there are no women in London who share my outlook on life. The clued up ones are morally far off the track i.e. "bad girls" and are too street for me to share my true passions with. Although their honesty is refreshing and they do tend to see what most can't. The so called moral girls are mostly suppressed intellects who recharge by bitching about everybody. The "pretty girls" are fun but when it gets past shallow socialising, I have nothing in common with them. I don't ever chase guys and so that isolates me from 90% of single women. I can't relate to married women because they don't "go deep" anymore. They are mainly caught up with superficial things. The intelligent girls are usually too competitive for me to deal with. They are threatened by me even though I go out of my way to be kind to them. I can't win.

It's so weird. I guess I'm some kind of social freak. I just say what I think and am genuinly interested. I am extremely poilte. Yet people are so plastic and cardboard (fake and 2D). I periodically stop speaking to everybody and start again. I don't mean to do this but I get overloaded and need to step back. Then after enough months have passed, I go back into the world.

Relationships scare the life out of me in general. Men fall in love fast then try everything under the sun to get me to "show some emotion". I don't like games and men always seem to think that I'm a mystery to be unravelled. In reality my needs are so basic and I'm totally honest. If somethings wrong I will say otherwise I'm content. If I want to know something I will ask. Thats all. Yet people seem to go to great lengths to speculate about me and analyze everything I do. This makes me depressed. I feel like some kind of specimen in a jar. I'm depressed because I'd like sex with someone I love whenever I want with no games. I won't settle for less than that. Hence lonliness.

London is a shallow city. Even the so called intellectuals are just following the same tired old theories in the hope of impressing their research teams. They mope around trying to convince people that they are deep and introspective when they are really casting evil eyes at anybody who comes close to questioning them. Theres very little sense of seeking real knowledge. This isolates me even more.

I'm also depressed because I have no family. It helps to have people who love you genuinely so that you can reciprocate. I think about where they are and if they think about me. I fight hard to defend what they choose to do but in the end all I can do is either hate myself and agree with them or go it alone and tell myself that I don't need them. Both are wrong. But life isn't perfect.

INTP's see what most don't. Most of this world isn't worth looking at. People are so bad to one another. Hence our observations drive us to sadness.

These two posts speak volumes to me. There is a particular emphasis on the knowledge of shallowness in the world causing depression, or sadness.

I feel that, greatly and often. When I think about how many are willing to destroy others' lives, and walk on people to "climb" the business ladder... these thoughts make up most of my despair. I truly do not believe there is much of any hope left in humanity. There is no real or lasting peace on this earth. There is only real and lasting peace in death.

I actually posted a rant on Facebook about this the other day. It could articulate my thoughts better than anything I could say now:

"I have heard that there are two types of people: the haves and the have-nots. And how sad it is, to dwell upon such a subject... to realize exactly what it implies, and exactly the way in which the two groups differ. And it makes me sick, when I think of such things, and how cruel one can be to another, and how dominan...ce and money are the only things that matter to some... that they would commit murder, spread falsehoods, and weave destruction to get it. Nothing else matters as long as their pockets are lined with gold, and they hold everything in absolute sway. The countries of Africa have been in economic turmoil for years because the first world countries take advantage of the "capitalization" opportunities. And when I critically and thoughtfully look at the culture, government, and system of America, I find that there are no redeeming qualities. The economy is based on greed, people are complacent and apathetic, and government controls many aspects of peoples lives. The media is controlled by government, and government by big business. Overall, our experiment in democracy failed. Corruption is all that's left in the decayed shell that once stood for truth, light, and vision. I see the failure in everything, creeping up, and destroying. And truthfully, there is no hope for the world anymore, except in its destruction, and no hope in the individual, except for death. That is the only escape and the only peace."

Where you believe that humans have screwed up everything? Yeah, I get it. But if you really think about it, that standpoint is the only way in which anything will work correctly.

I am more spiritual than most people on here, and I believe I have a special relationship with my emotional side. As in, when there is spirituality involved, that is about the only time I use it. I don't know the ramifications of this... I quite often think about who God is... and everything I think gets filtered through mt Ti dominant, but somehow it gets to the Fe as well... I couldn't describe the exact relationship. Anyway, because of this, I probably use my Fe more than some, but almost exclusively in a way which already supports what the Ti finds true... and I have no idea what this has to do with depression... maybe when I started writing this paragraph, I envisioned it to relate to such in some way...

Anyone have any idea what the rates of depression are like in 3rd-world countries? Among subsistence farmers? Any other sort of lifestyle that requires constant discipline, physical activity and an active mindset to survive.

I would imagine they'd be a ton less depressed.

 

[Lostwitheal]

I feel a bit over exposed now...it's really nice to meet you. I promise to never play any sycophantic games.

Haha, don't worry, you're very much un-exposed still. The beauty of the internet!

 

[snafupants]

my life has been fairly cynical since the age of 9. i can recall going to mass every sunday just to placate my mother and sneering at the sheeple who wanted to pray or wish their problems away. even looking out the window on a regular day, i would see scores of people trudging to work everyday and wonder where they came from. they certainly did not spawn from a loving relationship, and the fact that there were so many was quite alarming. i suddenly realized that there were so many dissatisfied people because adults were grasping onto sex for consolation and producing these apathetic dweebs who would grow up on consumer culture and false pride and spawn anew, recreating the whole cycle. where is lasting happiness in this system? can you buy it for $14.99? can you find it in a one night stand? can you find it in a twinkie? the fact that there are some 7 billion people doing the boot scootin boogie on our little planet and doubling every few generations signifies that they cant find contentment in other avenues. kids are just a way to feebly fight their own mortality.

i suppose i have my own consolation these days, but one that does not perpetuate the sheeple world-destructive style. my lifestyle essential involves burying my head in the sand and bypassing the problem for all intents and purposes, as heroic as that sounds. i mean, really, are you going to change the attitudes and behaviors of mindlessly humping, eating, breathing, alcohol guzzling, pill swallowing, chittering people?...no! i spend my days reading and writing and hoping that if reincarnation exists i dont come back to this world; or, if i must come back to this world in some manifestation, it will be as a butterfly or something else which is comfortable with its paltry surroundings and wont ask too many questions.

 

[Puffy]

At least in my experience coming out of depression has made me a lot stronger and in most cases resolved the issue that caused it. I would be quick to abandon the idea that it is a weakness, there is much reason to be sad in this world, you just can't let it stop you living.

 

[Sparrow]

I'm clinically depressed for about 3 years now. I'm not sad. But what makes me sad is that still people cannot distinguish between teenage angst, simple melancholia and real depression. None of these states is fun despite that people, including myself, often make fun out of angsty teenagers.

My own depression manifests itself mainly in avolition, apathy and the tendency to things more negative than they really are. Actually, I'm one of the few persons who can rationalize all of this so I have two contradicting world views in my head. One is how things really are and one is how the depression makes me watch things. It's as weird as it sounds. However, just because I can rationalize it doesn't mean I am able to control it. To describe it with a metaphor, it's like wearing a lead cape and I have learned to stand upright with it.

You just described my depression. Thanks for helping me understand it. I'm on anti-depressants right now, but I know it won't work. I'm not medically depressed...it's something else.

 

[nexion]

my life has been fairly cynical since the age of 9. i can recall going to mass every sunday just to placate my mother and sneering at the sheeple who wanted to pray or wish their problems away. even looking out the window on a regular day, i would see scores of people trudging to work everyday and wonder where they came from. they certainly did not spawn from a loving relationship, and the fact that there were so many was quite alarming. i suddenly realized that there were so many dissatisfied people because adults were grasping onto sex for consolation and producing these apathetic dweebs who would grow up on consumer culture and false pride and spawn anew, recreating the whole cycle. where is lasting happiness in this system? can you buy it for $14.99? can you find it in a one night stand? can you find it in a twinkie? the fact that there are some 7 billion people doing the boot scootin boogie on our little planet and doubling every few generations signifies that they cant find contentment in other avenues. kids are just a way to feebly fight their own mortality.

i suppose i have my own consolation these days, but one that does not perpetuate the sheeple world-destructive style. my lifestyle essential involves burying my head in the sand and bypassing the problem for all intents and purposes, as heroic as that sounds. i mean, really, are you going to change the attitudes and behaviors of mindlessly humping, eating, breathing, alcohol guzzling, pill swallowing, chittering people?...no! i spend my days reading and writing and hoping that if reincarnation exists i dont come back to this world; or, if i must come back to this world in some manifestation, it will be as a butterfly or something else which is comfortable with its paltry surroundings and wont ask too many questions.

This perfectly, exactly describes my thoughts. Thanks snafupants!

 

[Sparrow]

Hey, I decided not to leave the forum! What a surprise...not.

Anyways...what I wrote like a few weeks ago? Or was it a month ago...doesn't apply anymore.

There will always be a distance/seperation between myself and other people, always. Fact is, I've been screwing my body up for years...when someone sleeps 3-4 hours everynight for a year, refuses to eat and is always tired, he'll get depressed. His brain will be fatigued. His mind will crumble. Anyways, most of you depressed people are probably mistyped and most likely INFJs. I used to hate this world. I used to hate people. But it's better now. I'll probably never have many friends, and I don't expect much in my life, but just being alive is a great feeling. Tons of things to look forward to...lots of fun to be had. Anyways, point being, I had depression and I've conquered it. I'm never going back. Ever. Just build your confidence, your will, be courageous in the face of adversity and through your own hard work, patience and inner-resolve, you CAN beat this.

 

[snafupants]

Hey, I decided not to leave the forum! What a surprise...not.

Anyways...what I wrote like a few weeks ago? Or was it a month ago...doesn't apply anymore.

There will always be a distance/seperation between myself and other people, always. Fact is, I've been screwing my body up for years...when someone sleeps 3-4 hours everynight for a year, refuses to eat and is always tired, he'll get depressed. His brain will be fatigued. His mind will crumble. Anyways, most of you depressed people are probably mistyped and most likely INFJs. I used to hate this world. I used to hate people. But it's better now. I'll probably never have many friends, and I don't expect much in my life, but just being alive is a great feeling. Tons of things to look forward to...lots of fun to be had. Anyways, point being, I had depression and I've conquered it. I'm never going back. Ever. Just build your confidence, your will, be courageous in the face of adversity and through your own hard work, patience and inner-resolve, you CAN beat this.

neither avoidance nor intellectual rearranging will permanently alleviate the problem. ride the upswing while you can though. take it day by day. relatively severe, cycled depression is infrequently ephemeral and will come back.

 

[phantome]

I did once, and I may do yet again, however much I promise myself I'll stay away from that place

this pretty much summed it up for me :]

 

[Jedi]

It's pathetic what gets most people "depressed", which is one reason I closed my Facebook account. I'm not so sure I even know what it is, but I'm sure I've been there. It's not so much of a "I hate my life" sort of feeling as much as a neutral, unmotivated "I don't feel like doing anything" feeling.

 

[nexion]

It's not so much of a "I hate my life" sort of feeling as much as a neutral, unmotivated "I don't feel like doing anything" feeling.

I find the opposite to be true in my life, actually. Apathy, I think, is a natural response of my subconscious to depression, to combat the depression, not the depression itself. My deep sentimentality and emotion from depression followed by all-encompassing apathy as a defense against depression very easily creates conflicting thoughts and feelings within myself.

Although, to be honest, I don't think depression is a "I hate my life" issue either. I destroyed that idea a little bit ago. It is the most pure form of vanity and conceit. That being said, I still haven't really discovered why I get depressed (or why I am right now). I think it can sometimes be self-induced because I rarely ever finish anything I'm supposed to in a decent timeframe and get very little sleep (Sparrow was true in that respect), but I can pinpoint some instances within a depression or some depressions as a whole to be a form of true compassion and deep feeling for my fellow man. Which also creates conflict with my views when I'm not in depression.

Interestingly enough, whether anyone bothers to read this, just writing it makes me feel somewhat less depressed, as though I have some extent of control over it or some such. I guess Freud was right.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

I've been "depressed" from the age of 14 but I don't really believe in depression. Thats when things started happening that were blatently wrong. I think that society is so messed up that anybody with any sensitivity left will feel it.

Everything is wrong in my life. None of it is my fault. If I was an idiot I would fight the people who make my life hell but there are better ways to live and refuse to change and destroy my principles because people want me to behave like them. Wherever there is good, people generally face opposition, misunderstanding and hate because they choose a way other than the mainstream. They are not mass brainwashed nightly in front of the TV. They do not suck up to people because they are rich or powerful. They cannot be frightened into being evil.

Hence they will feel sadness and will face some kind of oppression.

Or maybe thats just me and few other hundred million.

INTP's probably feel more "depressed" than other types because while others are busy competing in shallow areas, we already know that we have won in most areas because we do almost anything we want. If we wanted something that badly we could do a shallow job or make small talk to get on someones good side but we know that it's not worth it. Sometimes knowing that theres no competition kills the vibe. Everything is too easy and that makes it too hard to find reasons to start.

I get depressed because I cannot connect with anybody. I like older men because they are relatively more intelligent than men my age and understand my sense of humor. But then they want relationships and want to leave their wives etc. It's rubbish. I just want people to bounce ideas off. I am a woman and there are no women in London who share my outlook on life. The clued up ones are morally far off the track i.e. "bad girls" and are too street for me to share my true passions with. Although their honesty is refreshing and they do tend to see what most can't. The so called moral girls are mostly suppressed intellects who recharge by bitching about everybody. The "pretty girls" are fun but when it gets past shallow socialising, I have nothing in common with them. I don't ever chase guys and so that isolates me from 90% of single women. I can't relate to married women because they don't "go deep" anymore. They are mainly caught up with superficial things. The intelligent girls are usually too competitive for me to deal with. They are threatened by me even though I go out of my way to be kind to them. I can't win.

It's so weird. I guess I'm some kind of social freak. I just say what I think and am genuinly interested. I am extremely poilte. Yet people are so plastic and cardboard (fake and 2D). I periodically stop speaking to everybody and start again. I don't mean to do this but I get overloaded and need to step back. Then after enough months have passed, I go back into the world.

Relationships scare the life out of me in general. Men fall in love fast then try everything under the sun to get me to "show some emotion". I don't like games and men always seem to think that I'm a mystery to be unravelled. In reality my needs are so basic and I'm totally honest. If somethings wrong I will say otherwise I'm content. If I want to know something I will ask. Thats all. Yet people seem to go to great lengths to speculate about me and analyze everything I do. This makes me depressed. I feel like some kind of specimen in a jar. I'm depressed because I'd like sex with someone I love whenever I want with no games. I won't settle for less than that. Hence lonliness.

London is a shallow city. Even the so called intellectuals are just following the same tired old theories in the hope of impressing their research teams. They mope around trying to convince people that they are deep and introspective when they are really casting evil eyes at anybody who comes close to questioning them. Theres very little sense of seeking real knowledge. This isolates me even more.

I'm also depressed because I have no family. It helps to have people who love you genuinely so that you can reciprocate. I think about where they are and if they think about me. I fight hard to defend what they choose to do but in the end all I can do is either hate myself and agree with them or go it alone and tell myself that I don't need them. Both are wrong. But life isn't perfect.

INTP's see what most don't. Most of this world isn't worth looking at. People are so bad to one another. Hence our observations drive us to sadness.

Such an excellent post, you've reworked and presented new perspectives that I have never known of yet before.

 

[DesertSmeagle]

Ya. damn. thats a good post. Thats exactly how i feel. Relatioships are stupid. So much acting and bullshit. If everyone was honest with eachother, the world would be a better place. I hate when people lie to me, and i have to try to decode their words. I dont have bad depression, but my social anxiety is rediculous. When people tell me nice job or something like that, i have to try and dcode their words, to figure out if they really like what i did, or they are just sayng that because im quiet and they feel bad for me.

I have family but ive never really had any "true" friends. But my parents care about me and love me, but I dont feel that they truly love me, because ive been a puppet on their hand my whole life. Im 18, and they are dissapointed in me because im not a pro basbeall player, and i show no interest in lifting weights or being "normal" as they call it. The one thing that really gets me angry, and hardly anything gets me angry,is when my parents critisize me and tell me to be normal. My dad gets angry at me because i hate being on a team, and dont have any firnds, my mom thinks im going to be a killer because shes heard the word anti-social personality disorder, but shes stupid and fails to accept that social anxiety is COMLETELY different than antisocial. Its a sociopathic disorder that the Vtech killer had. I feel your pain.

 

[Sensi Star]

Yes I suffer from depression mainly for the reasons addressed in #68. Deep, deep loneliness, stemming from the fact that I know that there are very few people out there like me, and that conforming is not an option despite being the only outlet for making friends.

Also, being as observant as we are, we see the world as it truly is: a huge arena in which people compete with one another selfishly and benefit from the losses of others. I know that ignorance is bliss, and I wish I was unable to perceive so objectively just to be indifferent and happy like everyone else.

 

[Lobstrich]

Just read though the whole topic again.

Came to the realisation that I am kind of an asshole

 

[snafupants]

Yes I suffer from depression mainly for the reasons addressed in #68. Deep, deep loneliness, stemming from the fact that I know that there are very few people out there like me, and that conforming is not an option despite being the only outlet for making friends.

Also, being as observant as we are, we see the world as it truly is: a huge arena in which people compete with one another selfishly and benefit from the losses of others. I know that ignorance is bliss, and I wish I was unable to perceive so objectively just to be indifferent and happy like everyone else.

interesting how the world seems to denigrate intelligence through increased suffering in the individual. this acts to demonstrate where natures cardinal objective lies: in the unquestioning propagation of the species. individual dissenters be damned and cease stealing oxygen from your copulating kin.