Body language

[INTPINFP]

is it just me or do all intps suck at body language. I hate the concept of body language itself. Scored 9% on a body language quiz too. I think we should communicate with words, not body language. Also I dont feel the need to move my hands when I speak.

 

[Reverse Transcriptase]

Yeah we do.

I don't remember where I read this, but... INTPs like to adopt "postures". We might have a natural body language - by it's tiny and not really that expressive, except when we're explaining something. So a lot of the time we just notice other people's postures in different scenarios, and just use them.

I'd do it a lot. I'd be sitting in class, hanging around a party. "Huh. how should I have my body oriented? I guess I'll use <X>."

However, I do find that while explaining things my hands get really animated. Or when ordering ice cream. "Two scoops [two fingers] of gold medal ribbon [point where the ice cream is] in a cup [hands form a cup]"

 

[INTPINFP]

Yeah in a party I usually just sit at a table with friends, if none of my friends are there I try not to bring attention to myself. When I am explaining things my mind if focusing on the words so my hands dont do anything. With icecream yes I do point at the ice cream I want.

The key here (for me) is ease of use. To me, using my hands to explain concepts I do once in a while, if and only if the listener is struggling to understand said concept, And the concept is can be described physically (at least to help understand.) I only use my hands as a last resort, sort of.

 

[Reverse Transcriptase]

if none of my friends are there I try not to bring attention to myself.

I do that too, and for me it comes out of shyness.

But I'm thinking: does it become obvious that we're standing in a corner being shy and kind of awkward? Or do we really just blend into the background and become unnoticed? I always notice the people standing around awkwardly (and when I'm in a social (drunk) mood I try to get them engaged) but maybe that's because I'm INTP? I wonder if NF, SJs and SPs really don't notice us when we're doing that.

I feel that if so, that would be representative of metamorphosis. And therefore
:smiley_emoticons_mr
more bats.

 

[Cogwulf]

Sometimes when I'm explaining technical things I notice I'm using gestures to visualise the description, except the gestures are abstract and only have any resemblance to the thing I'm describing to me

 

[Reverse Transcriptase]

Sometimes when I'm explaining technical things I notice I'm using gestures to visualise the description, except the gestures are abstract and only have any resemblance to the thing I'm describing to me

You probably look like a crazy person.

 

[Da Blob]

I finally got the opportunity to take a course in nonverbal communication in graduate school and I thought it was great. Body language is just one of the facets of nonverbal communications. somewhere between 65 -90% of all information transfered during a face-to-face conversation is of a nonverbal form.
I really recommend picking up a textbook on the topic...
Concerning gesturing as opposed to posturing. Gesturing is often an unconscious method of accessing memory via muscle memory...

 

[Reverse Transcriptase]

Concerning gesturing as opposed to posturing. Gesturing is often an unconscious method of accessing memory via muscle memory...

That's messed up.

Any suggestions for what books to pick up?

 

[Ermine]

It's scary to think that so much is communicated with body language and I'm not too good at using body language. I can interpret it alright, and I know I unconsciously use body language, but I have a very hard time purposely using specific body language, especially when it comes to eye contact, stance, and hand motions.

And people wonder why most flirting is a mystery to me. I've heard the tips, but the execution is lacking...

 

[INTPINFP]

I do that too, and for me it comes out of shyness.

But I'm thinking: does it become obvious that we're standing in a corner being shy and kind of awkward? Or do we really just blend into the background and become unnoticed? I always notice the people standing around awkwardly (and when I'm in a social (drunk) mood I try to get them engaged) but maybe that's because I'm INTP? I wonder if NF, SJs and SPs really don't notice us when we're doing that.

I feel that if so, that would be representative of metamorphosis. And therefore
:smiley_emoticons_mr
more bats.

Can I call you "The Batman" from now on?

 

[Da Blob]

That's messed up.

Any suggestions for what books to pick up?

I just copied this from a paper i wrote for the class. I really recommend Ekman. He is like the world's expert on the subject. There is even a television series "Lie to Me" that is loosely based on him and his work
References
Beattie, G. (2003). Visible thought: The new psychology of body language. New York : Routledge.
Davidson, R. J., Saron C. D. , Senulis, J. A., Ekman, P. & Friesen, W. V. (1990). Approach-withdrawal and cerebral asymmetry: Emotional expression and brain physiology 1. Journal of Personality and Social Development 58: 2 330-341 Retrieved 09/19/2006 from PsychInfo database.
Ekman, P. (1964). Body position, facial expression, and verbal behavior during interviews. Journal of Abnormal and Social Psychology. 68.3 295-301. Retrieved 07/18/2007 from PsychInfo database.
Ekman, P., Friesen, W. V., O’Sullivan, M. & Scherer, K. (1980). Relative importance of face, body and speech in judgments of personality and affect. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology. 38: 7 270-277. Retrieved 07/18/2007 from PsychInfo database.
Giles, H. & Le Poire, B. A. (2006). Introduction: The ubiquity and social meaningfulness of nonverbal communication. In V. Manusov & M. L. Patterson (Eds.) The Sage handbook of nonverbal communication.(pp 3-21). Thousands Oaks, CA: Sage.
Josselson, Ruthellen (1996). The space between us. Thousand Oaks, CA: Sage.
Knapp, M. L. & Hall, J. A. (1997). Nonverbal communication in human interaction (4th ed.). New York: Harcourt Brace.
Noller, P. (2006). Nonverbal communication in close relationships. In V. Manusov & M. L. Patterson (Eds.) The Sage handbook of nonverbal communication (pp403-421). Thousands Oaks, CA: Sage.
Madonik, B. G. (2001). I hear what you say but what are you telling me?: The strategic use of nonverbal communication in mediation. San Francisco: Jossey-Bass.
Richmond, V. P. & McCroskey, J. C. (2004). Nonverbal behavior in interpersonal relationships (5th ed.). New York: Pearson.
Shaffer, D. (2000). Social and personality development (4th ed.) Belmont, CA: Wadsworth/Thompson Learning.

 

[Jaico]

Hmm. I guess I'm the odd one out here - I've always been fairly aware of my body language/other people's, and actively use it to steer conversations or give off a certain vibe. I find it's a pretty useful thing to subtly show your interest in a topic, or tell what someone else is thinking by looking at how they sit. I haven't read any papers or books on it, but I think I'll look into those ones you suggested, Da Blob.

 

[flow]

I'm not the greatest at physically presenting myself.. but as for reading body language, I'm actually VERY good at it. I suppose it's my balanced thinking/feeling. Body language is often a lot more interesting than the actual conversation that's going on (especially when you're listening to an SP or an SJ). If there is one thing I like about SJs and SPs, it's that they communicate subconsciously effortlessly. My ESFJ roommate always had the best body language when we were out socializing, and I often based my chameleon social character off of him.

 

[uth]

I've been trying to have a relationship where most of the communication has been online. The lack of body language and non-verbal cues has been brutal on me. I'm always trying to figure out what she really meant with certain things. It doesn't help that she's INTJ and many things she writes are matter-of-fact and devoid of emotional language.

So I think body language is important.

 

[Da Blob]

I've been trying to have a relationship where most of the communication has been online. The lack of body language and non-verbal cues has been brutal on me. I'm always trying to figure out what she really meant with certain things. It doesn't help that she's INTJ and many things she writes are matter-of-fact and devoid of emotional language.

So I think body language is important.

I recently read that 1 out of every 8 marriages are now between people who met online. In a way I see this as a scary and sad development. It remains to be seen what the divorce rate is for those couples, but who knows, perhaps it may be the best way to find a companion for life.

To be practical in your case, I might suggest investing in webcams? It is not the perfect solution but it might lead to a 'step up' in your relationship...

 

[uth]

I recently read that 1 out of every 8 marriages are now between people who met online. In a way I see this as a scary and sad development. It remains to be seen what the divorce rate is for those couples, but who knows, perhaps it may be the best way to find a companion for life.

I don't think it's such a bad thing to meet online, especially who are people who aren't comfortable in social situations. I agree that the divorce rate remains to be seen, but I can't see how it can be worse than for people whose relationships are based on nothing more than physical attraction.

 

[Cogwulf]

Online you learn people's personalities before starting a relationship, in real life the initial attraction is mostly physical and you learn their personalities while you are in a relationship with them

 

[Trebuchet]

Concerning gesturing as opposed to posturing. Gesturing is often an unconscious method of accessing memory via muscle memory...

That's me! Everything I ever saw about muscle memory has focused on physical activities, like playing music or sports. And everything I read about kinesthetic learning involves being unable to sit still, but nothing about muscle memory.

When I learn, the learning is stored, somehow, in my muscles. Physics is stored in the long muscles of my thighs. What I know about people is in my upper arms. To me, that is kinesthetic learning. Is that what you are calling muscle memory, or am I just really weird? (Could be both, I suppose.)

 

[INTPINFP]

They say the brain is a muscle.

 

[Seducer of the Homeless]

sometimes i will be really shy and subdued, arms tight to my body, basically making my self small as possible...

and other times, i will be extremely animated, jumping round, walking in circles, hand gestures, varying tones of voice, talk really quickly

 

[Yellow]

I used to be extremely awkward when it came to body language and pretty much all movements. So, I started martial arts hoping it would make me more graceful. Then my friends started dragging me out dancing which was embarassing and after several dance lessons from strangers I decided no more; I learned several different forms of dance. This is kinda a long-way-around to say it, but along the way I became more graceful and my body language loosened up a lot. Then I learned that mimicking other people's gestures and positions makes them feel more comfortable with you (as long as it isn't mockingly obvious). Now I appear postively normal.. until I getting talking about something fun or zone out and stuff. See? books and learning prevails over the need to be born socially adept! Hurrah!

 

[RandomAspects]

I tend to have rather lazy body posture. Always look down, etc.

When I get excited over something though, I get very animated, gesture with my arms . . .

I've also noticed that I tend to fiddle with small toys or pens/pencils a lot.

 

[Reverse Transcriptase]

@Yellow,
That reminds me of something in another thread about finding intuitives. I can definitely notice when other people are awkward with their body language- and it's also kind of an attractant, because I can easily identify them as one of the types that has these issues. (Probably a xNxP.) Rawr!

Remember in high school, when everyone had to do their "ideal mate" projects? "Has difficulty expressing body language." lol...

Can I call you "The Batman" from now on?

Only if I can call you Alfred. Although with our debate in the other thread, maybe I should call you scarecrow.
:smiley_emoticons_mr:smiley_emoticons_mr

 

[Cogwulf]

Then I learned that mimicking other people's gestures and positions makes them feel more comfortable with you (as long as it isn't mockingly obvious).

I remember reading this in the New Scientist a while back, apparently it makes your chances of success in job interviews improve noticeably.

I used to have hunched shoulders and look down at the floor most of the time, then I moved away from home for a couple of months and now I have a much more confident posture than before. I think it was a self defence mechanism of sorts, I was alone in a place I didn't know and everyone talked funny, I was adopting a confident posture in the same way that a lot of animals make themselves look bigger to deter predators. And now that posture has stuck.
My body language is still not great though, when I'm nervous I tend to look at my watch -which I'm never without- a few times every minute

 

[Reverse Transcriptase]

I remember reading this in the New Scientist a while back, apparently it makes your chances of success in job interviews improve noticeably.

I have an interview on Tuesday, thank you for mentioning that! I'm going to go find the article.

 

[aracaris]

I just stumbled upon this forum, and found this thread interesting, so I guess I'll share my experience with this issue.

Normally I tend to be on the physically unexpressive side, and a rather quiet person.

However my job requires that I do a lot of speaking in front of groups that can get somewhat large, and I can't get away with just behaving in the way that comes most naturally to me, so I've had to start developing some acting skills.

Reverse Transcriptase mentioned INTP's tending to adopt postures, and it would be accurate to say I've been having to do an awful lot of that, and it is a real challenge.

 

[sagewolf]

I don't remember where I read this, but... INTPs like to adopt "postures". We might have a natural body language - by it's tiny and not really that expressive, except when we're explaining something. So a lot of the time we just notice other people's postures in different scenarios, and just use them.

I see that in myself a lot. I often adopt certain postures without quite knowing why I'm doing it, only to see someone near myself doing the same thing a moment later, whom I'd unconsciously copied. In contrast, every time I catch myself doing this, I immediately find something else to do with my arms or feet or whatever. I do it as subtly as I can,so they don't notice, but I always do it.

Probably the body language equivalent of "screw you". Oh well.

 

[shoeless]

i dunno, maybe i'm an anomaly in the intp world, but i tend to talk with my hands like crazy to the point where i have accidentally hit people more than once. they're all over the place. i can't help it.

regarding posture, i tend to be really... uhm, curled up? like i bring my knees to my chest and pretty much tighten myself as much as possible, whenever i'm just sitting around. i keep my arms to myself whenever i'm standing around (and not talking) and, i dunno, i guess i'm just trying to confine myself and take up as little space as possible. it's comfortable for me.

i'm really bad at reading other peoples' body language though. sometimes i even go online and read guides to find out what something might have meant, which only leads to me over-analyzing everything people do, whic kind of sucks.

 

[Veritas]

I used to be terrible at noticing the details of body language, but i was okay with the general outlines. It took awhile to learn, but it's actually fairly easy to pick up if you study it, though never as good as those with that intrinsic empathetic nature...

 

[Zero]

I read about body language and social norms. I try to use body language to communicate so I don't have to talk. That annoys people sometimes. I'm more attentive to body language these days.

 

[Salwan]

i dunno, maybe i'm an anomaly in the intp world, but i tend to talk with my hands like crazy to the point where i have accidentally hit people more than once. they're all over the place. i can't help it.

You are not alone...
The number of people that got a slap or objects that flew away because I was "explaining" something is nearly infinite, I'm sometimes wondering why they don't just talk to me from a distance because once they get me excited, someone or something is destined to be hit.

And the weird thing is that I actually like that about me

Now the real problem for me lies in eye contact, once I'm self-conscious about it, I'm completely fu--ed, I just don't know where to look at while talking, their eyes, their nose, their body, stare at something in the background, my feet, the ceiling, and the list goes on and on.
If I am not self-conscious, it's a problem that does not exist. (those things are puzzling).

This reminded me of a little story I heard a long time ago about a man with a huge beard, the man lived normally until someone someday asked him: "when you sleep do you cover your beard with the blanket or do you leave it over the blanket?", that day, the man never slept..

 

[aracaris]

You are not alone...

Now the real problem for me lies in eye contact, once I'm self-conscious about it, I'm completely fu--ed, I just don't know where to look at while talking, their eyes, their nose, their body, stare at something in the background, my feet, the ceiling, and the list goes on and on.
If I am not self-conscious, it's a problem that does not exist. (those things are puzzling).

I had a real problem with eye contact for the longest time. On some instinctive level that I think must be rooted in a more primal primate response my brain has tended to associates eye contact with aggression and the initiation of a challenge. Western society doesn't view eye contact in such a way so I have to ignore that little instinctual primate response. Have to say I've gotten to be quite good at making eye contact in circumstances that society sees as proper, it doesn't typically bother me like it used to, even though that instinct isn't completely dead.

I wonder if most humans actually share this instinct, and if so what the fact that eye contact is expected as a normal day to day part of human interaction in the US says about the US.

Certainly not all cultures view eye contact the same way that Americans do.

 

[Da Blob]

I had a real problem with eye contact for the longest time. On some instinctive level that I think must be rooted in a more primal primate response my brain has tended to associates eye contact with aggression and the initiation of a challenge. Western society doesn't view eye contact in such a way so I have to ignore that little instinctual primate response. Have to say I've gotten to be quite good at making eye contact in circumstances that society sees as proper, it doesn't typically bother me like it used to, even though that instinct isn't completely dead.

I wonder if most humans actually share this instinct, and if so what the fact that eye contact is expected as a normal day to day part of human interaction in the US says about the US.

Certainly not all cultures view eye contact the same way that Americans do.

A primate response is one politically correct explanation. However, in Western culture it is common to 'mask' ones facial expression so that emotions cannot be read, avoiding eye contact is the easiest way to achieve this deception. Eye to eye contact implies a willingness to pretend to be honest...

 

[Adymus]

I think we should communicate with words, not body language. Also I dont feel the need to move my hands when I speak.

Screw that, telepathically is the way to go. Just once I'd like to be able dump my thoughts into a person so I can avoid pausing in mid sentence for ten minutes because I forgot the word "Juice".

 

[Reverse Transcriptase]

Screw that, telepathically is the way to go. Just once I'd like to be able dump my thoughts into a person so I can avoid pausing in mid sentence for ten minutes because I forgot the word "Juice".

The best way to solve that problem is to make up a word for it. Or have one word you always use for words you can't remember. They'll probably figure out what you meant by the context.

Alternatively, you can say "the watery fruit drink"
listener: "uhhh... you mean juice?"
Adymus: "oh, right, that's the word. Juice!"

 

[Adymus]

The best way to solve that problem is to make up a word for it. Or have one word you always use for words you can't remember. They'll probably figure out what you meant by the context.

Alternatively, you can say "the watery fruit drink"
listener: "uhhh... you mean juice?"
Adymus: "oh, right, that's the word. Juice!"

When I can think of the right word, I draw them a picture.

Me: "So I started growing my own tomatoes and I'm learning how to make tomato... uhhh..." *Pulls out a pen and paper and start scribbling*

Listener: "Oh! Uhhmm, Tomato! Uhhhm, Tomato island? Tomato skateboard? What the fuck is that supposed to be!? Tomato zeppelin?"

Me: *shoots the listener an angry look and goes back to scribbling."

Listener: "Tomato zeppelin?"

ME: "IT'S NOT A FUCKING ZEPPELIN!"

Listener: "Tomato orange juice?"

Me: *Starts flailing hands in a circle*

Listener: "Oh oh! Tomato Orange! Tomato Orange peels! Tomato Sunny D!"

Me: "Times up..."

 

[flow]

lol

 

[Ermine]

Nice, Adymus. That's one of many reasons I'm glad I can draw accurately. Then there are a few less guesses.

Never had the problem with forgetting common words though. Just have a hard time articulating ideas for contraptions I invent in my head, or extremely abstract concepts that don't have too many words to use.

 

[phantasia]

This weekend I got a comment about my body language being out of control, and I can only agree. When I get start explaining something or get excited, my body awakes from it's usually calm position and starts moving in ways that if observed without my speach, would make me look like... a complete retard. I don't know if there is anyway to control this when it happens. It's like my body starts, spontanously, to conduct my speach like I'm doing a frikkin' orchestra.

Maybe the solution to this has been brought up before in this thread, because I only read a few comments...

 

[Lobstrich]

Body language is natural for me, I don't "use" it it's just there.

 

[Cavallier]

Ach! Because of this thread I noticed myself using various poses while at work today. It suddenly dawned on me that I have a list of poses I use regularly...and I hadn't noticed it before!

I must ponder this further.

 

[citrusbreath95]

Not too good at body language, I usually try to hide my body language, and get all paronoid that people are making observations on how I am feeling based on my posture, or position. I actually did some research online on body language, and found it very interesting. I was comprehending it online, but applying it to real life... thats a whole different story!

 

[Mary]

That's me! Everything I ever saw about muscle memory has focused on physical activities, like playing music or sports. And everything I read about kinesthetic learning involves being unable to sit still, but nothing about muscle memory.

When I learn, the learning is stored, somehow, in my muscles. Physics is stored in the long muscles of my thighs. What I know about people is in my upper arms. To me, that is kinesthetic learning. Is that what you are calling muscle memory, or am I just really weird? (Could be both, I suppose.)

If that's true, kinesthetic learning is really cool.

 

[ashitaria]

*shakes head slowly*

Why do I relate to you guys so well?