Devil's Advocate

[Auburn]

What's said in this thread stays in this thread, and is not applicable outside of it.


There is no limit to what can be discussed in here, nor a specific topic. It is merely a place where one can play devil's advocate* for the mere stimulation and beauty of it.

This thread is a haven for all perspectives. Feel free to take whichever side you want on anything discussed. It's an opportunity to express views that are outside of your usual way of thinking, and perhaps even contrary. In here there is no burden to preserve a consistency with previous posts of yours. Lie if you wish. Nobody should hold you accountable for it. *grins*


* = Devil's Advocate: One who debates from an opposing perspective, often contrary to what s/he actually believes, out of sport.

 

[Auburn]

Here I'll start =]

There's no such thing as a beautiful yet humble girl! It's a myth that only exists in anime and fairy tales.

Any attractive girl is praised for her beauty since before she learned to talk. And when you're told something your whole life, you can't help but believe it. They all end up knowing they're beautiful and inflating their ego - the intellectual ones are no exception.

 

[Lucylie]

What about beautiful women with low self esteem? Low self esteem can manifest in humble-like behavior.

I really enjoy the premise behind this thread.

 

[Auburn]

What kind of beautiful woman has low self esteem? o,o

(Perhaps if she is of some middle-eastern culture where women are still treated harshly, I suppose it's possible to be beautiful while having low self-esteem, but not in more developed countries.)

We live in a world full of so many horny guys that it's impossible for a pretty girl to escape special treatment. And their beauty is an asset to them not only in the realm of sexuality, but in everything else. Even if they are not vain, nor seek praise, they are still more likely to come across the right man for their personality - because they have many more options to choose from; more guys approach them.

People with low self esteem are usually aesthetically displeasing, come from abusive homes, suffer from some mental disorder, etc.

***
​

This brings me to another point!
The type of people who post on forums have major issues.

This here forum is a collection of failures; an asylum of defective individuals - not INTPs. Most people on this forum suffer from one or more of the following: clinical depression, childhood trauma, social paranoia, schizoid disorder, drug addiction, asperger's disorder, low self esteem, or severe loneliness.

It cannot be blamed on personality type, because there are plenty of INTPs who have managed to live, and are living, very fulfilling lives. But of course, we wouldn't know about them because they're not spending their lives away on some forum. Do you think any truly actualized INTPs would be spending their time here?

And females especially, because if a female is even remotely attractive, she'll likely not suffer from many of those issues (loneliness, low self esteem, depression) because there would be many males willing to remedy some of those issues. Females are the ones with a buffet at their feet while males often struggle just to find one girl.

Having said that, to find a female engrossed on a forum for hours every day is a higher indicator that something is socially/physically/aesthetically/psychologically wrong with her - than it would be for a male. P=

 

[Luminates]

your wording of how a remotely attractive female have a buffet of men at there feet isn't always a good thing. females tend to be lessen in the ability to control there emotions, or rather have a higher rate of showing them off. Another reason why there are more INTP men over INTP females. Place a moderately decent looking female, lets say for the sake of things; age 17, into a regular social life, having to attend school, being pushed by the parents, And having to deal with the socially bound chains of being popular, I'm sure it can add up. Why do you think the quiet ones that ARE completely normal are usually the ones living a successful life? I'm not saying that being popular and having "servants" under your wing is a bad thing, and it can at times lift some of that stress, but it's just easing the burden, not cleaning it.

Understandably, a female that spends more adept time on this forum, or any forum for that matter, would be considered to have a problem, but that doesn't or shouldn't lead to a negative factor.

 

[Dormouse]

It's completely possible to be beautiful but not take advantage of it, or conceal the beauty for whatever reason. For some, knowing they have potential is enough.

As for forum-goers, as I see it their lifestyle is a personal choice, be they male or female, and nobody should reproach them for it.

 

[Luminates]

It's completely possible to be beautiful but not take advantage of it, or conceal the beauty for whatever reason. For some, knowing they have potential is enough.

As for forum-goers, as I see it their lifestyle is a personal choice, be they male or female, and nobody should reproach them for it.

Agreed. But do you think that there is a structured difference in socializing with people through this forum or socializing with people that you can meet personally?
What about video talking, like skype? Since your communicating in the same manner as you would if you were two feet away, wouldn't you consider it the same?

 

[Auburn]

Agreed. But do you think that there is a structured difference in socializing with people through this forum or socializing with people that you can meet personally?
What about video talking, like skype? Since your communicating in the same manner as you would if you were two feet away, wouldn't you consider it the same?

No...

There are very important elements which cannot be communicated via the net - namely touch. You cannot hug someone online, caress them and kiss them, and comfort them in your arms when times are harsh.

Regardless of personality, that is a basic human need. We all need social interaction, even INTPs. It's just that for INTPs, often the thought of social interaction is so closely knit to unsatisfactory superfluous conversation, that we think to ourselves that we don't need it. The truth is we do need that interaction, but we're simply surrounded by the wrong crowd.

This forum is proof of our need to interact with others. It is a better-than-nothing solution but not ideal. Here we find those we are lacking in real life. We find like-minded people who can challenge our intelligence and creativity, and interact with them long distance. However, if circumstances were better for us, interacting in real life would be best.

 

[Zero]

The humble thing, that's true. Heh. Unless they're prideful as that tends to be an indicator of poor self confidence. I just don't like taking compliments.

(This thread is utter BS)

 

[Luminates]

One picture from my figure skating days and I think that would end this thread.

Except for the humble thing, that's true. Heh. Unless they're prideful as that tends to be an indicator of poor self confidence. I just don't like taking compliments.

(This thread is utter BS)

then change the subject. If I recall, this thread's main purpose was to talk about whatever and to an certain extent for that matter. So if this current debate seems a bit off to you, then change it.

 

[Zero]

Why is everyone trying to support Haiti when they've been the poorest country in the Northern Hemisphere for as long as I can remember? Their government is corrupted and they are suspicious of foreigners. The ridiculous amount of money and aid sent to Haiti is either going to put them in a place where they're better off than they ever have been or the corrupt government is going to fuck everything up. Either way, I think the "aid" seems like a temporary solution and the government needs to be straightened out if Haiti actually wants to avoid going into extreme poverty again.

My issues is mostly with our government giving their government money. I think the independent organizations, especially those that are well established and deal within the laws of Haiti, are fine and good and know how to use the money they have. Although, some of the "independent organizations" have caused problems. The one I'm thinking of would be a Baptist Church. Which makes me wonder if we should be allowing churches to send in missions at a time like this with so much chaos and people who simply need to know what to do in a disaster zone.

 

[Cognisant]

There's no such thing as a beautiful yet humble girl! It's a myth that only exists in anime and fairy tales.

Beautiful people often take comfort in their appearance, but that doesn’t necessitate a superficial mindset, it just makes it that much more likely.

Females are the ones with a buffet at their feet while males often struggle just to find one girl.

Women only pursue the most attractive of males, otherwise the norm is for the guy to be the initiator of the relationship and so I wouldn't say we don't have a buffet to choose from, it's just that it's a buffet of everything we don't want. For reasons I'll explain in the next paragraph most guys require the target of their attentions to be about as psychologically developed as they are, and to be sufficiently attractive/interesting to be worth undertaking the personal risk and effort inherent in pursuing any girl; truth be told, most aren’t, and the rest already have boyfriends

Attractive/superficial women often have very simple desires & values, and as such less attractive but more intellectually developed guys can take advantage of this simplicity, simultaneously feeding/harming the girl's ego to gain favour and establish emotional dependency; fortunately most guys have some shred of human decency and refrain from this behaviour.

This here forum is a collection of failures; an asylum of defective individuals - not INTPs. Most people on this forum suffer from one or more of the following: clinical depression, childhood trauma, social paranoia, schizoid disorder, drug addiction, asperger's disorder, low self esteem, or severe loneliness.

Everybody has problems, ours are just more interesting.

There are very important elements which cannot be communicated via the net - namely touch. You cannot hug someone online, caress them and kiss them, and comfort them in your arms when times are harsh.

Actually I prefer it this way, the space is comforting.
(but then I'm a little messed up that way)

Wish I could see people's eyes though, with eye contact it's possible to tell when someone's lying, gain some degree of insight into their unexpressed thoughts, and/or even their subconscious desires.
Better yet is when you tell them this and they try to look away so you don't see the dirty thoughts that've popped into their mind

 

[Zero]

I suppose my attempt to change the subject was too heavy.

Seriously though... Am I heartless or missing something for thinking we're setting their government up for bigger problems?

--
I don't see what the discussion about beauty really means. The fact that we believe people only go for the "most attractive" is an artificial expectation. It may be produced by our worship of the Stars.

However, more normal people end up with someone who is about as physically attractive as they are. Most people don't want to be with someone who is better looking than them, as it'll give them an inferiority complex. Sure, sometimes we see odd couples. But for the most part I tend to see pairings that are kind of like "complimentary" to each other.

Fat people marry fat people.

 

[Luminates]

Why is everyone trying to support Haiti when they've been the poorest country in the Northern Hemisphere for as long as I can remember? Their government is corrupted and they are suspicious of foreigners. The ridiculous amount of money and aid sent to Haiti is either going to put them in a place where they're better off than they ever have been or the corrupt government is going to fuck everything up. Either way, I think the "aid" seems like a temporary solution and the government needs to be straightened out if Haiti actually wants to avoid going into extreme poverty again.

My issues is mostly with our government giving their government money. I think the independent organizations, especially those that are well established and deal within the laws of Haiti, are fine and good and know how to use the money they have. Although, some of the "independent organizations" have caused problems. The one I'm thinking of would be a Baptist Church. Which makes me wonder if we should be allowing churches to send in missions at a time like this with so much chaos and people who simply need to know what to do in a disaster zone.

I would have to agree with this, at least the part of America donating and giving so much towards the poorest country.

Ok, I know that they live with nothing, and they just took a major hit, but in ANY other country, this size (if an earthquake of the same scale would hit a city of the same, like Paris getting hit in France) would do a multiple amount of more damage, and lives lost. It just so happens to hit there of all places possible.
Next, why would the American Government be giving the most towards Haiti when they themselves are in trouble. Aren't we in a Recession at this moment? Trying to configure various ways to fix the bankruptcy and economic issues? Why give so much towards another country that had little to begin with. It could be very possible that this country, despite its loss, will end up with more than what they had before, well minus those that died.

 

[MarsRover]

Perhaps this (if it's not already, I have to say I'm no expert on the forum rules but will remedy this shortly) should become a "forum rule" on its own? I try to avoid assuming that the position people are arguing for is congruent with their own personal opinions. I would have no qualms about this disconnection of arguments with intentions if possible.

I'm going to say (regardless if it is congruent with my views or otherwise) that it would be beneficial for the individual to become detached from the argument that he/she presents if possible. I might start an argument for the opponent of an idea I am considering to see what merit it has, for example -- for the intellectual stimulation it may provide.

It has been my experience so far within the boundaries of my short life that withholding one's position(s) can place more focus on the argument itself rather than the individuals' opinions/values/beliefs, in particular why he/she holds them (but this works best when both individuals have agreed upon this before hand).

I don't claim any degree of competence in the structuring of one's life. My own may very well be a testament to the contrary =).

 

[Zero]

Next, why would the American Government be giving the most towards Haiti when they themselves are in trouble. Aren't we in a Recession at this moment? Trying to configure various ways to fix the bankruptcy and economic issues? Why give so much towards another country that had little to begin with. It could be very possible that this country, despite its loss, will end up with more than what they had before, well minus those that died.

That is the question isn't it? Where is the money coming from? I'm afraid of how things are going to look come April. I keep trying to figure out what the hell Obama is thinking. Most of his moves have been fairly unpopular, but only in the long run will we really know if what he did helped.

I'm pretty POed he bailed GM. I understand he was trying to "save jobs", but the car industry is pretty much a monopoly.

Considering Haiti's government, it's questionable about how things will turn out. I hope they get it together and put the money towards the right things. The reason the country has suffered so much in the past is because the government refuses to shape up. You can do a lot of good even with a limited budget. Though I've read they're also irritated/suspicious of the foreign interaction. I'm not sure if this was refering to the government, which I would think, or the people. I think the people have a right to be suspicious and I wouldn't be surprised if they were. Suddenly everyone is compassionate and interested in them.

Were we not compassionate before? Or has this disaster left the country in such a vulnerable state we can effectively "invade" with our compassion and outreach.

 

[Anthile]

Where the money is coming from? Advertising budget.

 

[echoplex]

more guys approach them.

That's a common assumption, but on the supposed 'attractiveness scale' from 1 to 10, it's the 6s and 7s that get approached the most. Generally, it's natural for males to make considerable effort to avoid rejection, since rejection in many cases -- especially public rejection -- can cause much embarrassment and thus lower the status of the male. And it is generally in a male's best interest to be perceived as powerful. Public rejection reveals his powerlessness. Plus, it's usually a waste of effort to approach a 10, when you consider how much effort is often put in to attract others.

Simply put, an 'average' guy approaching a 9-10 is like walking into an ego slaughter. Most people can't stomach that, but it's impressive that some can. Generally though, males like to go for the 'sure thing.' Both sexes are afraid of rejection, but it's the approaching party who has the most to consider and the most to lose. The other party can't be rejected -- they've already been chosen. Of course, we know which party men typically fall into.

For the record, I despise this talk of numbers. But it serves a descriptive purpose and this is a devil's advocate thread dammit.

 

[Words]

Well my opinion is , "whether consistent or not, decisive or not, the task and result of helping people succeeded enough." I only hope that this "drive" doesn't dissapear and that a more logical way,whether the one used in this situation was or not, is implemented for future's sake.
----

Why do people have to touch each other? (Why does touching bother me so much?)

 

[Claverhouse]

Ok, I know that they live with nothing, and they just took a major hit, but in ANY other country, this size (if an earthquake of the same scale would hit a city of the same, like Paris getting hit in France) would do a multiple amount of more damage, and lives lost. It just so happens to hit there of all places possible.

Actually the exact reverse is true: Cuba had a 6.1 earthquake in Feb 2007 without casualties, and a 6.9 in May 1992 with 40 injured. Casualties at the Haitian rate happened because Haiti is fucked beyond redemption.

Due to various unspeakable circumstances, including history, exploitation and IQ, Haiti is unqualified to sustain any disaster. Of course, 300 years ago Relief Aid from other countries would have been impossible --- it would have taken weeks for the news to reach elsewhere, and weeks for one little wooden ship to carry doctors with their bottles of leeches and spare blankets to arrive.





Claverhouse

 

[Sugarpop]

Since the list of potential topics is endless, there should rather be a subforum dedicated to this kind of discussion. Maybe one that is off limits to minors?

Besides, you guys fail at controversy. Why is necrophilia wrong? Why is pedophilia wrong? Why don't we eat heavily handicapped or braindead people? Why is cannibalism wrong at all?

 

[Cognisant]

Why is necrophilia wrong?

Aside from hygine, that's actually a pretty good question.
Once I'm dead or technologically ascendant, I don't much care what my body's used for.

Why don't we eat heavily handicapped or braindead people?
Why is cannibalism wrong at all?

I think it isn't, imagine, world hunger solved overnight.
(there's a lot of human biomass in the world)

It's called recycling people, hail to mother earth, and so forth...
Not that I actually care or anything, I just like meat.

 

[Words]

Why would it be unjustly? Because it is generally inhumane. And what is general humanity is what creates "general morality". We follow this because we are humans. To cross that extreme height of human boundary, which defines your humanity, is to not be humane---morally. Besides, its highly distanced from "ambrosial".

 

[NothingTodo]

Since the list of potential topics is endless, there should rather be a subforum dedicated to this kind of discussion. Maybe one that is off limits to minors?

Besides, you guys fail at controversy. Why is necrophilia wrong? Why is pedophilia wrong? Why don't we eat heavily handicapped or braindead people? Why is cannibalism wrong at all?

Cannibalism makes you mentally crazy.

 

[Sugarpop]

Cannibalism makes you mentally crazy.

Hunger makes you physically crazy.

 

[ashitaria]

Hunger makes you physically crazy.

Hunger and cannibalism brings out the evil in you.

 

[Cognisant]

Which is more evil, stepping on an ant or eating morally obtained human meat.

In the latter nobody dies and a need is fulfilled, in the former the ant dies needlessly.

 

[Zero]

I kill ants when I'm bored and outside (for some reason...).

And I don't eat human meat. I'm morally corrupt.

 

[Cognisant]

Morality has no standard measure, it's subjective, dependant entirely upon one's personal beliefs and values.

Thus moral corruption is little more than cognitive dissonance.

Does this mean amorality equates to cognitive purity?

Is cognitive purity a measure of sanity?

Am I sane? Do I care? Should I? Does it matter?
...No.

 

[Zero]

What if... I kill the ants and I eat the ants?

 

[Words]

If you care so much about subjectivity, my evil says human meat is "yuck". Perishing ants through the use of fire(fireballs/magnifying glass) is more entertaining.

 

[Zero]

Hmm what kind of meat is on an ant?

 

[echoplex]

Doesn't this all depend on how much the ant suffers? If an ant dies suddenly and painlessly it's not like the other ants are going to miss it. However, I realize that by this logic, a human with no friends or family would also be viewed as fair game so long as they are killed painlessly for food.

And such logic has been used on humans. In times of extreme desperation, based on cases I've heard of, it is often the one with the least family, or with the least amount of people who need them, who is picked by the group to be sacrificed. And I don't think this is only the case with cannibalism, but with many things. If someone is to take the fall for someone else's crime, it seems it's less likely to be a father or a politician. Additionally, single people get fired more easily, get fewer promotions, pay more taxes, and are generally hated by married people -- because marrieds are jealous of them and their freedom to date.

Of course, I'm exaggerating at the end there. But dammit, it's amazing to me how biased society is in favor of married people. It's like encouraging people to make mistakes, because most marriages are just that.

 

[Zero]

How much pain does an ant feel? I don't know much about their nerves.

An earth worm definitely feels pain.

 

[echoplex]

^ Good point. It would seem reasonable that creatures as small as ants would need to be hypersensitive to outside stimuli in order to be best suited to survival. They can't fight off most other creatures that aren't small like them, so they need to quickly scramble at any possible threat. That may not equate to pain though. It may just mean that they are easily frightened and hyper-aware, with or without the influence of pain.

 

[Zero]

Beware of Siafu Ants.

Ants communicate with each other through chemical signals and use their antennas to sense as well. I'm unsure how much they can sense with their actual bodies. They have an exoskeleton...

Ants don't always run away. If you're careful you can pick them up and they may appear to be lost, but they don't panic. Why am I telling you that...

Are we seven years old and sitting in a sandbox?

 

[echoplex]

haha. Yeah, I forgot about how they will randomly lose all fear and just crawl on your finger. I suppose something like roaches would be a better example. They won't let you within 5 feet. (which is just fine with me)

 

[Cognisant]

I suppose something like roaches would be a better example. They won't let you within 5 feet.

Heh, you should come down to Australia, sometimes at night when they're on the sidewalk (under the glare of street lamps) they'll get confused by the sound of approaching feet and try to run into the nearest shadow, i.e. the shadow of the person walking by, it's fucking hilarious when a tourist scream themself stupid because a roach ran up their leg. Better yet is when it's breeding season and there's like a group of tourists sitting on a patio enjoying the night-time cool (it gets bloody hot here in summer) and all of sudden a roach flys into one of them (yes, here roaches can fly) I swear the roaches don't pay any attention to where they're going, they just up-and-go.

 

[echoplex]

I've seen flying ones too occasionally. And speaking of breeding season, it's both hilarious and disturbing how they will not separate while mating. They will just run away still attached. It's weird. I guess you could say they are devoted lovers. ewwww