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The Joy of Deep Discussions

Trebuchet

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The NY Times reported a study by Dr. Mehl at the University of Arizona, which tracked the small talk vs. deep discussions of a few dozen college students, and the happiest people were the ones with the highest proportion of meaningful discussion and the smallest proportion of small talk. (This didn't include practical things like homework.)

While it doesn't show cause and effect, it is a pleasing correlation. I hope there will be more research on this.

Imagine if everyone tried to reduce small talk and say more meaningful things. I'm all for it.
 

bluesquid

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You ever have such a good conversation you start shaking? Get twitchy? i love those.
 

Double-Think

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So, does that mean that we, as Intuitives can say that we finally won the war to be happy? give me a sensors' head to put on a pike! :hoplite_spear_kill_2: N's 1 S 0 :kinggrin:
 

Sparrow

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Actually, I think that was fatigue causing the shaking. Not going to bed all night because of philosophy: priceless.

*Nods

Not many people share my interests so when I do find someone that does...we can talk for ages...non-stop, it's beautiful. I generally avoid small talk...Silence > Smalltalk.
 

bluesquid

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Actually, I think that was fatigue causing the shaking. Not going to bed all night because of philosophy: priceless.

lol that happens also.

This is a form of excitment. New thoughts and ideas exploding. I literally shiver.
 

Words

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The NY Times reported a study by Dr. Mehl at the University of Arizona, which tracked the small talk vs. deep discussions of a few dozen college students, and the happiest people were the ones with the highest proportion of meaningful discussion and the smallest proportion of small talk. (This didn't include practical things like homework.)

This only applies to those interested in that deep side of subjects. For example, I, personally, haven't had any deep conversations since 3 weeks ago and now I feel suicidal. I'd imagine a small talk-lover would feel the same--suicidal--if s/he were to live in a house inhabited by "deep talking" people. That is, in short, if most college students enjoyed deep conversations then it'd make sense. Or the level of need could equate the level of want. From another example, the small talkers I've observed are coincidentally the most joyful people I know. joking and joking and joking.
 

Trebuchet

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This only applies to those interested in that deep side of subjects. For example, I, personally, haven't had any deep conversations since 3 weeks ago and now I feel suicidal.

Okay, that is really bad. Look, as an alternative to suicide, try signing up for a women's studies class at your local community college or something. The discussions will not be brilliant, but they will be passionate and as deep as the participants can manage. And you will probably find at least one interesting person there. It doesn't have to be women's studies. Just something with lots of controversy. You may end up feeling murderous, I suppose.

That is, in short, if most college students enjoyed deep conversations then it'd make sense. Or the level of need could equate the level of want.

Your analysis here makes sense. The sample did consist of college students, since they are the easiest group to study. There is no way to determine cause and effect from this study. I just enjoyed the correlation.

From another example, the small talkers I've observed are coincidentally the most joyful people I know. joking and joking and joking.

They may be the most jocular people you know, but are they really the happiest? Smiling doesn't mean happy. A good friend recently sort of broke, because of terrible financial and other problems that went on for far too long. I'm very worried about him. He is a professional performer and most people thought he was genuinely happy all that time, laughing and joking. But around me, his conversation is always deep, so I pay close attention to him, and I knew he was unhappy.

If the happy people around you are making lots of small talk, that implies they are kind of boring. Would you have looked at them deeply enough to know if their happiness was a sham?
 

Words

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Okay, that is really bad. Look, as an alternative to suicide, try signing up for a women's studies class at your local community college or something. The discussions will not be brilliant, but they will be passionate and as deep as the participants can manage. And you will probably find at least one interesting person there. It doesn't have to be women's studies. Just something with lots of controversy. You may end up feeling murderous, I suppose.
Hey thanks for the thought. Though I think I'll just wait for school.

Smiling doesn't mean happy.

I have to observe more...
 

Iuanes

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I read a comment from the page of article that made some sense. Generally that if you're having a meaningful conversation with somebody its usually somebody thats close to you and you trust. Frequently having 'deep' conversations may simply mean there's usually someone around who you can talk to intimately in a sense, and strong relationships almost universally give a better feeling of well-being. Small talk is an indication of a distanced relationship or having simply no further commonality on which to talk on other than trivialities. This makes for a sad panda.

I think 'deep-talk' is interesting in a way, because it is sort of an intellectual intimacy. It usually occurs with people you know, but sometimes it can happen with relative strangers. I know it makes me directly happy to have these types of conversations. Almost invariably when I get drunk I don't try to come on to people, or to fight them, but try to find out their innermosts beliefs and possibly argue with them on this level.
 

intuitivet

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You ever have such a good conversation you start shaking? Get twitchy? i love those.
I love those! I use Anne Rice's 'Golden Moment' idea to describe it. Don't you find deep discussions usually happen when you have people stay the night and you talk and talk as you're going to sleep and suddenly learn so much about them and you get really into the discussion.
It's a shame such moments are quite rare and don't last for very long. The best ones I've had have been when my friends stayed the night and none of us could sleep after watching a scary film, so we stayed up and talked long into the night (about three or four of us).
I'm not really surprised people are happier when they have more discussions such as these, I'm surprised they're common enough to be mentioned in a study.
 

Words

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They may be the most jocular people you know, but are they really the happiest? Smiling doesn't mean happy. A good friend recently sort of broke, because of terrible financial and other problems that went on for far too long. I'm very worried about him. He is a professional performer and most people thought he was genuinely happy all that time, laughing and joking. But around me, his conversation is always deep, so I pay close attention to him, and I knew he was unhappy.

If the happy people around you are making lots of small talk, that implies they are kind of boring. Would you have looked at them deeply enough to know if their happiness was a sham?

I know one thing for certain. I've had several "deep" conversations but I'm not exactly in a positive position, my cousin: none, and he simply shoves away this condition and I have to say that he's clearly one who's more associated with the term "happiness". There are several other people I've observed who ignore the "deep" but takes in bliss from the more superficial acts.

How about your observation? Your example? Are there more people who talks more about the "deep" or are there more people that don't?
 

BigApplePi

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How do we know the alternatives to suicide are not all dead ends?:slashnew: After all, after passing through the lowest point, one can only rise from there.:rolleyes:
 

BigApplePi

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Is small talk really the opposite of deep discussion? Does it have to be one or the other? After all, do deep discussions happen only if one happens to get lucky? Doesn't there have to be a "set up"? That is, what are the pre-conditions for deep discussion?

I wonder if some threads on this very board provide any answers!
 

Words

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How do we know the alternatives to suicide are not all dead ends?:slashnew:
"Dead ends"? Suicide is not exactly the best option.


After all, after passing through the lowest point, one can only rise from there.:rolleyes:

If one can be certain to revive, definitely.:)


Is small talk really the opposite of deep discussion? Does it have to be one or the other? After all, do deep discussions happen only if one happens to get lucky? Doesn't there have to be a "set up"? That is, what are the pre-conditions for deep discussion?

They are mostly one with each other but consider the idea of "rounding up numbers". 1% is no 99%. The bulk, though does not entirely defines something, represents its "most". The amount of sugar you added on your drink determines its sweetness. Depth, in a similar fashion, is a level. It makes way for "deep ocean" or not. The adjustment of the level of depth, or what is deep, depends on standards of the norms.
 

walfin

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Words said:
I know one thing for certain. I've had several "deep" conversations but I'm not exactly in a positive position, my cousin: none, and he simply shoves away this condition and I have to say that he's clearly one who's more associated with the term "happiness". There are several other people I've observed who ignore the "deep" but takes in bliss from the more superficial acts.

It might be interesting if they did a similar study for, say, construction workers, athletes, actors, corporate executives in different industries etc.

There might be some kind of a correlation.

Words said:
This only applies to those interested in that deep side of subjects. For example, I, personally, haven't had any deep conversations since 3 weeks ago and now I feel suicidal. I'd imagine a small talk-lover would feel the same--suicidal--if s/he were to live in a house inhabited by "deep talking" people. That is, in short, if most college students enjoyed deep conversations then it'd make sense. Or the level of need could equate the level of want. From another example, the small talkers I've observed are coincidentally the most joyful people I know. joking and joking and joking.

I don't know if they'd feel suicidal.

Perhaps the small-talk people might just shake off the intellectual gobbledygook as so much nonsense.
 

Vatroslav

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*Nods

Not many people share my interests so when I do find someone that does...we can talk for ages...non-stop, it's beautiful. I generally avoid small talk...Silence > Smalltalk.

Same here...
 

citrusbreath95

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You ever have such a good conversation you start shaking? Get twitchy? i love those.


Yes! I once got so engaged in this conversation I was having with my friend, I accidentely knocked off my glass of soda as my hands were flailing around everywhere, at the moment it was hilarious:p

I do get much pleasure from deep conversations, for me, the conversations usually die down quickly though until it's only me speaking, as no one's usually into the things I am into. All in good time I suppose...
 

Da Blob

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I do not know if i have had very many deep discussions in the past half century that were truly two-sided. It seems odd in a way, I was inspired to read a great deal as a child, when a teacher suggested that the books on the shelves had been written by my friends just for me. Being the gullible youngster that I was, I believed her (and perhaps still do) and began to read. She also told me that reading was "listening with the eyes" and so I learned to listen to author's voices as they read to me their stories. I never had to work at reading it always seemed to me to be a matter of simply listening.

It has been a life of one-sided conversions, in this regard, but I have listened to some of the deepest thinkers in history, attempting to express themselves using the limited language of humans. Even here on this forum there is occasions to listen to some deep thinkers - However, I do not know if i ever learned to express my own few deep thoughts in words, so that the idea of a two-sided deep conversation is still just an ideal. I guess it requires active listening by all parties involved and that requires open minds, which are scarce in any group of people...
 

Adymus

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This sounds like bullshit.

I am happy when I can express my deeper thoughts, that is because I am an INTP. But trying to force an ESTP into always having deep discussions would make them as uncomfortable and bored with it as I am with small talk.

Secondly, this study was conducted at a university, and taken by college students. College students statistically tend to lean toward intuitive, and will thus be happier in deep conversation.
 

ashitaria

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I'm not telling you, stalker! :P
I've never had a deep conversation in my life yet, I have yet to have one. I have however, had several deep arguments (or debates) that I truly enjoyed, but pissed off the other person. So there hasn't been a single deep "discussion" without the expanse of the other person.

Small talk is something that I rather hate, except for funny small talk. Funny small talk is usually really hilarious, though normal small talk can go and fuck itself (wonder how that's possible).

Ah well...

the shameless attributes of INTPS. :p
 

Sparrow

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This sounds like bullshit.

I am happy when I can express my deeper thoughts, that is because I am an INTP. But trying to force an ESTP into always having deep discussions would make them as uncomfortable and bored with it as I am with small talk.

Secondly, this study was conducted at a university, and taken by college students. College students statistically tend to lean toward intuitive, and will thus be happier in deep conversation.

Harsh. :beatyou:
 

Adymus

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It is just such a ridiculous conclusion to make with such a weak sample size, and without even attempting to explore deeper than this one aspect of a person's life.
 

intuitivet

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This sounds like bullshit.

I am happy when I can express my deeper thoughts, that is because I am an INTP. But trying to force an ESTP into always having deep discussions would make them as uncomfortable and bored with it as I am with small talk.

Secondly, this study was conducted at a university, and taken by college students. College students statistically tend to lean toward intuitive, and will thus be happier in deep conversation.
I agree and disagree.
College students aren't representative of the population and it was probably a volunteer sample so even less representative.
However, I don't think MBTI should be used in such a general way. Some ESTPs may love to have certain types of deep conversation. Also, a 'deep conversation' may be different from person to person, so it's hard to say.
 

BigApplePi

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It is just such a ridiculous conclusion to make with such a weak sample size, and without even attempting to explore deeper than this one aspect of a person's life.

Depth Charge.

Hi Adymus. I question that the use of words such as "bullshit" and "ridiculous" fall within the range of an ardent Ti's accepted technical vocabulary even if this msg is out of context. They sound Fe to me. Not even Si or Ne. My impression of an INTP's Ne is that it is not confined to a single area. Rather that it is spread out making Ji choices difficult. That forces me to wonder if Ji depth can be forgone by Ti's and Ne's in favor of Si dabbling and Pe extroversion venturing into shallowness without encountering a guilty conscience while at the same time favoring an Fe extroversive friendliness.

Forgive the jargon and its misuse. I don't use jargon if I can help it because it includes only fellow jargonates. Jargonites? Jargonions? Jargonitas?
 

Adymus

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I agree and disagree.
College students aren't representative of the population and it was probably a volunteer sample so even less representative.
However, I don't think MBTI should be used in such a general way. Some ESTPs may love to have certain types of deep conversation. Also, a 'deep conversation' may be different from person to person, so it's hard to say.
No, actually I do think I can make this generalization, they never really "Like" deep conversation, they may tolerate it, but none of us really "like" to have our inferior functions pulled on.
Besides it is not something that is going to make or break them, "Deep conversation" is not something that is going to make their live better, they can take it or leave it.
Even if 'deep conversation' is different from person to person, which it could be, it still really just invalidates this study more that it validates it.
 

Adymus

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Depth Charge.

Hi Adymus. I question that the use of words such as "bullshit" and "ridiculous" fall within the range of an ardent Ti's accepted technical vocabulary even if this msg is out of context. They sound Fe to me. Not even Si or Ne. My impression of an INTP's Ne is that it is not confined to a single area. Rather that it is spread out making Ji choices difficult. That forces me to wonder if Ji depth can be forgone by Ti's and Ne's in favor of Si dabbling and Pe extroversion venturing into shallowness without encountering a guilty conscience while at the same time favoring an Fe extroversive friendliness.

Forgive the jargon and its misuse. I don't use jargon if I can help it because it includes only fellow jargonates. Jargonites? Jargonions? Jargonitas?
:rolleyes:


Okay let's drop the use of Ji and Pe, because you are using it in such a way that indicates to me that you may not have a grasp of what it actually means. It is also kind of unnecessary to use if we are going to be talking about the specific functions themselves.
Ne, is not an INTP's highest concern, Ti is, and we are not confined to accepting everything we hear as a possibility, especially if when have an understanding of facts (Si) that would negate what is being proposed. This is not shallow, this is called doubt, and it is our way to testing the strength of new ideas. If this study had proven something substantial about the human psyche, then I suppose I'd have to shift my paradigm, but it does not look like that is the case.

PS: Fuck yeah this is Fe I am using, what of it?
 

Agent Intellect

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I'm curious as to what people think a deep conversation is? Is it a conversation about something esoteric or imponderable (ie, why does the universe exist)? Is it simply an impassioned conversation, even if it's about something often discussed like gay rights or abortion? Is it an emotional conversation, where one or all parties freely share their innermost feelings on any topic/situation? Is it deep analysis into a topic/subject to the point of semantics and asking stupid questions, much like the ones I'm asking? Or is it hanging around talking about how deep one is (especially if one is a self proclaimed "N" and therefore predisposed to being deep)?
 

Sugarpop

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The kind of people who have deep discussions are probably the ones who feel more at home in a university.

I do feel like I'm not getting my portion of 'deep' in everyday life.
 

BigApplePi

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:rolleyes:


Okay let's drop the use of Ji and Pe, because you are using it in such a way that indicates to me that you may not have a grasp of what it actually means. It is also kind of unnecessary to use if we are going to be talking about the specific functions themselves.
Ne, is not an INTP's highest concern, Ti is, and we are not confined to accepting everything we hear as a possibility, especially if when have an understanding of facts (Si) that would negate what is being proposed. This is not shallow, this is called doubt, and it is our way to testing the strength of new ideas. If this study had proven something substantial about the human psyche, then I suppose I'd have to shift my paradigm, but it does not look like that is the case.

PS: Fuck yeah this is Fe I am using, what of it?

Let me tell you something of where I am coming from. I have made a collection of character/personality types as I've come across them over the last twenty years and put them into a spreadsheet. I was fascinated by the organizationalability of the thing - that one can put people into distinct categories. In the back of my mind was if there are so many classifications I would like to see a way to integrate them. Or if not, at least to compare or translate one into the other. Let me grab my LOTUS spreadsheet and present some. Myer-Briggs and now yours is only one of them:

Psychetypes of Michael Malone - 8 categories
Love - 6 categories
Horney - 3 neurotic categories
Man the Manipulator - 8 categories
Your Inner Child of the Past - 8 categories
Six Personality Types by Taibi Kahler - 6 categories
Freud Childhood Stages - 4 categories
Difficult People, Dealing wth - 9 categories
Basic Bricks of Temperament - 4 categories
Birth Order - 4 categories
Social Style Strategies - 4 categories
Hippocrates - 4 categories
-----------------------------------------------------

So you are right about Ti being the highest concern for an INTP (I assume I belong there). I am only in the data collection phase. I'm too "lazy" or otherwise occupied to be scholar here though I could at least give it a preliminary shot, I have not. Like many INTPs, I suffer from the failure to choose. I think that a poor excuse. I should know better.

I know you would like me to drop Ji and Pe. I think I see what you mean. They don't rate as cognitive functions -- or is that the wrong way to put it? The reason why I've toyed with them when I first saw Myers-Briggs, I wanted to know how J and P plays out. I've seen you write about this but forget exactly how you've put it. Where I am coming from is personal as well as theoretical. I personally suffer from endless data collection and a failure to choose something to specialize in. I refuse to specialize as long as I can't account for everything in a theory. Calling something Perceiving extroverted and Judgment introverted seems to fit just right. My perception is shared and objective; my choosing is personal and subjective. If you don't condone this calling this Ji and Pe, do you recognize these traits and how do you propose to place them? (You do have large paragraphs devoted to Introverted Judgment and Extroverted Perception in CF100. (That doesn't mean I understand everything the same way you do. My thinking style in different from you.) Do you prefer they go under Si and Ne respectively? Not to forget J and P are Directive and Adaptive traits.


As to using Fe, INTPs can use it. The question is, can they use it and socially function well? Ti should have something to say about that if the thinking is broad or inclusive enough.
 

Adymus

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So you are right about Ti being the highest concern for an INTP (I assume I belong there). I am only in the data collection phase. I'm too "lazy" or otherwise occupied to be scholar here though I could at least give it a preliminary shot, I have not. Like many INTPs, I suffer from the failure to choose. I think that a poor excuse. I should know better.

I know you would like me to drop Ji and Pe. I think I see what you mean. They don't rate as cognitive functions -- or is that the wrong way to put it? The reason why I've toyed with them when I first saw Myers-Briggs, I wanted to know how J and P plays out. I've seen you write about this but forget exactly how you've put it. Where I am coming from is personal as well as theoretical. I personally suffer from endless data collection and a failure to choose something to specialize in. I refuse to specialize as long as I can't account for everything in a theory. Calling something Perceiving extroverted and Judgment introverted seems to fit just right. My perception is shared and objective; my choosing is personal and subjective. If you don't condone this calling this Ji and Pe, do you recognize these traits and how do you propose to place them? (You do have large paragraphs devoted to Introverted Judgment and Extroverted Perception in CF100. (That doesn't mean I understand everything the same way you do. My thinking style in different from you.) Do you prefer they go under Si and Ne respectively? Not to forget J and P are Directive and Adaptive traits.


As to using Fe, INTPs can use it. The question is, can they use it and socially function well? Ti should have something to say about that if the thinking is broad or inclusive enough.
Here is the thing about Ji and Pe and Je and Pi, they relate to the cognitive functions in the same way that General relates to specific. You are referring to Ji and Pe and then the cognitive functions as if they were separate thing. Ti is a form of Ji, and Ne is a form of Pe, so a statement like:

"That forces me to wonder if Ji depth can be forgone by Ti's and Ne's in favor of Si dabbling and Pe extroversion venturing into shallowness without encountering a guilty conscience while at the same time favoring an Fe extroversive friendliness."

Makes absolutely no sense in respect to the theory. I actually found that statement very confusing, are you suggesting that using your lower functions makes you shallow? We have access to all of our top four cognitive functions, there is nothing wrong with using them, we all do it, it is just a matter of how conscious you are of their use.
 

BigApplePi

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Here is the thing about Ji and Pe and Je and Pi, they relate to the cognitive functions in the same way that General relates to specific. You are referring to Ji and Pe and then the cognitive functions as if they were separate thing. Ti is a form of Ji, and Ne is a form of Pe, so a statement like:

"That forces me to wonder if Ji depth can be forgone by Ti's and Ne's in favor of Si dabbling and Pe extroversion venturing into shallowness without encountering a guilty conscience while at the same time favoring an Fe extroversive friendliness."

Makes absolutely no sense in respect to the theory. I actually found that statement very confusing, are you suggesting that using your lower functions makes you shallow? (Hadn't thought of it that way but now that you mention it, why not if one is an INTP?) We have access to all of our top four cognitive functions, there is nothing wrong with using them, we all do it, it is just a matter of how conscious you are of their use.

Adymus. I made the comment that we think differently. That won't be easy to explain and I may not be able to do so. Consequently communication will be difficult. Roughly what I think it is, is my goal in most theories is a top-down presentation. I see yours as an attempt at that but there is a lot of description but not strictly top-down. Feel free to disagree.

The quote of mine you presented was sort of poor humor and not meant to be formal.

Back to the topic of how to place Ji and Pe ... if at all. You made an interesting statement: "they relate to the cognitive functions in the same way that General relates to specific"

Seems to me P & J, observing and choosing are everywhere, pervading everything. That applies to thinking, intuition, sensing and feeling. And we constantly cycle back and forth. P & J, adapting and directing operate at both a macro and a micro scale. This says P & J operate as a separate system outside of Jung's original four T,N,F,S.

The above are unfinished thoughts (close to intuition). They would have to be reviewed with CF100 in mind.

It's too much work at this point to straighten out what I meant by what you quoted but may not be worth it or may be if only as an exercise.
 

Adymus

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Adymus. I made the comment that we think differently. That won't be easy to explain and I may not be able to do so. Consequently communication will be difficult. Roughly what I think it is, is my goal in most theories is a top-down presentation. I see yours as an attempt at that but there is a lot of description but not strictly top-down. Feel free to disagree.

The quote of mine you presented was sort of poor humor and not meant to be formal.

Back to the topic of how to place Ji and Pe ... if at all. You made an interesting statement: "they relate to the cognitive functions in the same way that General relates to specific"

Seems to me P & J, observing and choosing are everywhere, pervading everything. That applies to thinking, intuition, sensing and feeling. And we constantly cycle back and forth. P & J, adapting and directing operate at both a macro and a micro scale. This says P & J operate as a separate system outside of Jung's original four T,N,F,S.

The above are unfinished thoughts (close to intuition). They would have to be reviewed with CF100 in mind.

It's too much work at this point to straighten out what I meant by what you quoted but may not be worth it or may be if only as an exercise.
You do realize my CF100 was presented as a top-down model, right? In what way was that a failed attempt?

Of course Judgment and perception is everywhere, every function must either be perception of judgment, just as every function must either be extroverted or introverted. How does that make J and P separate systems, if it is the functions Themselves that are either Judgment or perception, or adaptive or directive?
 

Jah

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Does this mean that this forum is a fountain of happiness ?
 

Starfruit M.E.

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This only applies to those interested in that deep side of subjects. For example, I, personally, haven't had any deep conversations since 3 weeks ago and now I feel suicidal. I'd imagine a small talk-lover would feel the same--suicidal--if s/he were to live in a house inhabited by "deep talking" people. That is, in short, if most college students enjoyed deep conversations then it'd make sense. Or the level of need could equate the level of want. From another example, the small talkers I've observed are coincidentally the most joyful people I know. joking and joking and joking.

I'm joking joking and joking and I look happy, but I'm not. A lot of people joke to avoid reality, myself included. But usually we don't bring that up. And then one of us kills themself and we can't deal with it so we pertend we don't care and keep on joking. Small talk does not give a meaning to your life. Even the jokers need something real going on. Otherwise they never really feel that anyone knows them. And that's a problem because we all have these fears that we're going to be rejected. But if you talk deeply with someone and they accept you, it's so relieving... And people can find identity in that acceptance and really be happy instead of just pretending.
 

Adymus

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Why Joke to avoid reality? Is it wise to avoid reality? If it isn't, Why avoid reality if avoiding itself is destructive?
Words... you're so innocent... It's adorable.
 

Trebuchet

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How about your observation? Your example? Are there more people who talks more about the "deep" or are there more people that don't?

I think most people do both. Some people avoid small talk, and others avoid deep conversation, to be sure. Those who avoid small talk hang out on the INTP forum. I figure those who avoid deep conversation are either genuinely shallow or afraid of what they might learn, though I don't hang around such people, so I don't know.

Joking, smiling, and laughing can be either genuine or just part of social interaction. You have to look at they eyes to see which one is going on, but once you do, you pretty much have to take the jocularity at face value. It is usually rude to call an unhappy person on his or her attempt to fake happiness. Not always, of course. My daughter's kindergarten teacher lost a pet, and was having a really tough time smiling through the day. I recommended she simply tell the kids what happened, because she shouldn't have to pretend to be happy when she wasn't. She decided to do that, the kids understood, and everyone went on with their day. But usually, you can't make suggestions like that.
 

BigApplePi

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You do realize my CF100 was presented as a top-down model, right? In what way was that a failed attempt?

Of course Judgment and perception is everywhere, every function must either be perception of judgment, just as every function must either be extroverted or introverted. How does that make J and P separate systems, if it is the functions Themselves that are either Judgment or perception, or adaptive or directive?

I did not mean to give that impression. Your presentation is top-down in the large. Otherwise I would not have spent time with this top-down outline and revision: Re: Cognitive Functions 100: Basic Functionality Revised
What is was thinking of was the details. For example in your 2nd paragraph you say, "
For example, Ne perceives ....". The reader outside this forum has never heard of Ne. That is not introduced. Same with more two letter codes in following paragraphs.

Separate question. Extrovert-Introvert sections are up front. I assume that is because they are important as they pervade everything and do so in approximately 50-50 proportion. Is that why Adaptive and Directive are next -- because they pervade everything 50-50?

I could argue feeling pervades everything except not "cognitively." If a thinking person had no feeling about what he was thinking, he would stop thinking as he wouldn't care. That goes for the other cognitive functions I'm willing to bet. I would like to see a sentence or paragraph stating the importance of presenting extroversion/introversion/adaptive/directive.

You bring forth the eight cognitive functions without explaining what a cognitive function is. I would like to see another sentence or small paragraph defining a cognitive function versus a non-cognitive function so we know what qualifies. For some reason everyone has four and they are ordered in importance. Why not five or three?

I have more on adaptive/perception & directive/judgment but am unable to put it into words at present so I'll have to leave it go.
 

Lobstrich

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It's very simple..
I can either have 'talks' which I don't participate in.. That are obviously boring to me..
Or discussions that suck me in. When i just cannot stop. Even if I have alot of things to do, no matter.. 2AM 3Am 4Am 5AM It just keeps rolling.. When those talks come up on rare occassions (Very rare in fact.. Most of my friends are E's So they dislike disussions.. Or at least they try. But they annoy me with their stupidity.. Yeah I called my friends stupid.)

I love where I live.. But one thing I hate: Is that there aren't alot of people. Only around 40k on the whole island. Sucks, really. So yep. real discussons are rare for me, sadly =(

EDIT: Uops.. Thread revival. Didn't see it was from march.
 

NeverAmI

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I'm curious as to what people think a deep conversation is? Is it a conversation about something esoteric or imponderable (ie, why does the universe exist)? Is it simply an impassioned conversation, even if it's about something often discussed like gay rights or abortion? Is it an emotional conversation, where one or all parties freely share their innermost feelings on any topic/situation? Is it deep analysis into a topic/subject to the point of semantics and asking stupid questions, much like the ones I'm asking? Or is it hanging around talking about how deep one is (especially if one is a self proclaimed "N" and therefore predisposed to being deep)?



LOL, great post. For me a deep conversation is where someone is able to give me blunt honesty, you truly show who you are to the other person. You may relay a story and say "This is what I was thinking, this is how I felt, this is how I responded and this is why I think that is the case."

Ultimately though, I always break a discussion down into a philosophical talk because that is where you find someone's core motivations. When I can have an uninhibited philosophical discussion with another, without either side getting offended, criticized etc, just sharing information openly, honestly, and transparently, I consider that a deep conversation.

As for small talk, I view that as overhead. Discussions about technology, etc aren't really small talk imo.
 

BigApplePi

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I love where I live.. But one thing I hate: Is that there aren't a lot of people. Only around 40k on the whole island. Sucks, really. So yep. real discussions are rare for me, sadly =(

That is discuss-ting. Or did I mean anti-discuss-ting?
 

Puffy

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I find it hard to maintain a friendship without engaging in any small talk, I'll admit I do enjoy deep discussions a lot more than small talk but they both seem neccesary to me. I doubt you'll engage in very many 'deep discussions' if you never engage in small talk. I don't know why so many here are treating small talk with such vehemance.
 

BigApplePi

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I find it hard to maintain a friendship without engaging in any small talk, I'll admit I do enjoy deep discussions a lot more than small talk but they both seem neccesary to me. I doubt you'll engage in very many 'deep discussions' if you never engage in small talk. I don't know why so many here are treating small talk with such vehemance.
I agree. Both are necessary. But why? Is there any way we can "prove" that without resorting to intuition or relying on experience? That is, what logic can we present?
 

Moocow

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My standard of "deep conversation" is so goddamn low these days, we could be talking about why kittens are adorable and I'd be glad it at least isn't gossipy horse shit.
 

Words

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ESxx, you know, extraverted sensor :elephant:

You know, "ES"'s can also handle "deep discussions". I had one with an ESTP and another with an ESFJ. They won't be as energized by it but your input of presence will. The initiation lies on your hands however.

I'm not implying that you're saying that they don't but to simply try to widen your conversational options.

Of course, it's not the same...and perhaps you will still maintain a level of madness.
 
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