FacetiousPersona Banning

[Chimera]

Noodles noodles noodles!!
-flyingtackleglomps-
Where have you been lately? I asked around, and got half answers like "He's writing a book or something" and "I think he died". ):
​

 

[fullerene]

*seconds chimera's flyingtackleglomp*

*ahem*. In a much more burly, manly way, of course. *grumbles in a deep voice*

It's been almost 3 1/2 weeks, and no phone call!? Your parents obviously haven't been teaching you proper manners, young man. I'd better give them a call and tell them to keep a better eye on you...


ok, seriously. Are the rumors true, about you writing that book? If it's not getting published, or won't be out for a long while, would you post/PM/email it when it's done?

 

[NoID10ts]

I am trying to write a novel, but I'm pretty sure I totally suck at writing so it probably won't ever amount to anything. It's just something I feel like I have to try.

I always thought that there was no way I could have the perseverance to finish one, but when I calculated how much writing I've done here, I realized that it is almost as much as a novel. That spurred me on to make an attempt at it.

I just crossed the 10,000 word mark today and have 2 chapters more or less complete and a third well on the way. I'm willing to email it out, just pm me.

I probably need as much feedback as I can get in order to know if I should continue or quit and concentrate on my toe nail collection.

EDIT: Happy Birthday Chimera!

 

[Seducer of the Homeless]

*sits, awaiting the frenzy of 'Noddy Returns'*

 

[Da Blob]

I am trying to write a novel, but I'm pretty sure I totally suck at writing so it probably won't ever amount to anything. It's just something I feel like I have to try.

I always thought that there was no way I could have the perseverance to finish one, but when I calculated how much writing I've done here, I realized that it is almost as much as a novel. That spurred me on to make an attempt at it.

I just crossed the 10,000 word mark today and have 2 chapters more or less complete and a third well on the way. I'm willing to email it out, just pm me.

I probably need as much feedback as I can get in order to know if I should continue or quit and concentrate on my toe nail collection.

EDIT: Happy Birthday Chimera!

Actually if you have written 3 good chapters, it should all be down-hill from this point. You either have the reader hooked or or you don't - this far into the book. Like many other things in life the most difficult part of the project is just getting started...

 

[Cegorach]

I LOVE YOU CHEESE!!!! (Great Arguments!)

After careful consideration of various members I have decided to further explain my insistence on Faces return.

It is becoming increasingly difficult for new members to secure a recognizable spot within the framework of this community and force their way into the vast amount of eccentric personalities and established relationships.
So how do you overcome this?
All INTP are unconventional and even the most unique newcomers may be challenged to prove that they can provide a valuable service to this forum (humor, new perspective, or dominant intelligence) because of this they may resort to overbearing behaviors that would otherwise be uncharacteristic of them and if improperly presented can lead to some unique and possibly exaggerated misunderstandings. I'm certain many of our newer members could attest to this.
Why do I think I can convince Face to change behavior?
This problem could only be exacerbated (that word always makes me giggle)by authority issues (which I'm certain most INTP have an intimate understanding of! ) these would cause all warnings by mods to be met with sarcastic indifference. Regardless of ability I am in a position where I can be influential and have an exceptional impact on Face, simply due to my lack of authority and casual conduct, if I am correct Face could become a functioning member of our society (Or at least accomplish a similar purpose to that of Noddy and Melkor).

I'm not even certain if posting this is necessary, and am quite confident that we shall reach some sort of reasonable decision.

(Oops! I believe I may have rerailed this thread. DAMN ME! Go anarchy!)

 

[echoplex]

He/she seemed okay to me, and in my limited time here, I never really saw anything that crossed the line, although I trust that if the Mods say they saw it, I guess they did.

I'm not sure what constitutes being disrespectful, since I imagine that's something we're all somewhat guilty of at times. However, posting a link to child porn alone is worthy of punishment.

What sucks is that he/she seemed to have a cool sense of humor, and even if they were a "troll", seemed like they may be one of the "good" ones.

 

[Cegorach]

The aforementioned "Child Porn" was actually panty shots of a twenty year old woman.
There may have been a small amount of light pornographic materials (breasts).
Although still inappropriate, this may be a little less shocking to some.

 

[Melkor]

Jesus

I PM'd Morgoth and told him to derail this shit, but as usual he gave it a half assed effort and then quit, the bastard.




Oh and hi. Hope you all have been doing okay without me.

HEY!

I'LL HAVE YOU KNOW THAT WHEN IT COMES TO ASSESS I GIVE ALL THE EFFORT!



no wait...



NO!!

I DIN'T SAY THAT!!!

 

[loveofreason]

I LOVE YOU CHEESE!!!! (Great Arguments!)

After careful consideration of various members I have decided to further explain my insistence on Faces return.

It is becoming increasingly difficult for new members to secure a recognizable spot within the framework of this community and force their way into the vast amount of eccentric personalities and established relationships.
So how do you overcome this?
All INTP are unconventional and even the most unique newcomers may be challenged to prove that they can provide a valuable service to this forum (humor, new perspective, or dominant intelligence) because of this they may resort to overbearing behaviors that would otherwise be uncharacteristic of them and if improperly presented can lead to some unique and possibly exaggerated misunderstandings. I'm certain many of our newer members could attest to this.
Why do I think I can convince Face to change behavior?
This problem could only be exacerbated (that word always makes me giggle)by authority issues (which I'm certain most INTP have an intimate understanding of! ) these would cause all warnings by mods to be met with sarcastic indifference. Regardless of ability I am in a position where I can be influential and have an exceptional impact on Face, simply due to my lack of authority and casual conduct, if I am correct Face could become a functioning member of our society (Or at least accomplish a similar purpose to that of Noddy and Melkor).

I'm not even certain if posting this is necessary, and am quite confident that we shall reach some sort of reasonable decision.

(Oops! I believe I may have rerailed this thread. DAMN ME! Go anarchy!)

Considering that you have actually made a thoughtful, if poorly formatted, (for goodness sake! put some space around things so that I can read - I'm old you know!!!) argument. I say have your go at levering Face out of the troll heap.

eh?

So this is the sad day when the forum has become a social bunfight rather than a testament to thought...

see, we're human after all. Actually, tell Face their experiment is pointless. They ought know well enough themselves that it is impossible to escape subjective judgment entirely...

Oh yeah... Face can read

*waves*

 

[Melkor]

FACE CAN READ?

 

[cheese]

Cow:
Thanks. I liked what you said too, and I think it's related to my "unfleshed" point earlier. People need to have a sense of where they fit in a community, and this should be congruent with other people's perceptions of their roles as well. Face had a problem because he wasn't accepted by all, and because his self-perceived role as occasional antagoniser was only enjoyed/tolerated by those who also perceived him as family-member Face; as possible-troll Face it was completely unacceptable. The situation was *exacerbated when the dissatisfaction made itself felt, and the typical INTP authority issues expressed themselves in continued "bad behaviour".

if improperly presented can lead to some unique and possibly exaggerated misunderstandings.
and what lor said about subjective judgements. Yeah, this basically explains everything I said earlier in two words.

*Damn, just realised Cow used that word too! Now I feel like a dirty plagiarist!

 

[cheese]

I thought I'd clarify the above because some people on the Invisible Boundaries thread have mentioned difficulties understanding the "niche-finding" persepctive.

I can't speak for Cow but I see it thus:
Possibly "niche" was not the right word to use, as it suggests exclusive ownership of a space. It isn't exactly that new members have to find a role to play, ie it's not about being The Joker of the forum, or The Sage and so on. It's about establishing a persona that expresses enough of the generalities of a poster's personality to be acceptable to him and informative to others. The difference between the "niche" perspective and this lies in that the persona does not have to be unique, just defined. Ideally this definition should also leave enough mental room for traits that don't fit within that framework to also be accepted by observers. This is very difficult to achieve however. One memory that stands out for me here involves Noddy on the Who Are You Inside thread, where he temporarily stepped outside the confines of his usual persona and posted serious, personal information. This was immediately derailed by Melkor, whose interactions with him did not allow much for that, and in spite of the genuine frustration Noddy expressed nothing changed.

The problem with some new members is that they have more disparate personality parts than others. Forming an externally coherent front out of them is then more difficult, as different observers draw different generalities from their behaviour. The persona cannot then be established, and different subjective judgements are formed of subsequent behaviour. Compounding this is the community's attitude towards the poster. Different attitudes elicit different responses, and reinforce old attitudes. Integration with the community as a whole is vital, and this means establishing a persona and attitudes in the minds of the community that is coherent enough with the poster's perception of self. Widely varying attitudes mean certain behaviours which perhaps should be pruned are not, as the interactions with different members suggest different necessities.

 

[Cegorach]

cheese is right.

It's about gaining respect and being acknowledged without having to abandon customary behaviours....








OH! I almost forgot to thank Lor!
THANKS LOR!!!!!!!!!!
-tackles lor in a demented bear hug-

 

[cheese]

^An INFJ I know keeps doing that; it's very disturbing! Control your Fe!

 

[Cegorach]

Control? What is this word you speak of?


Wait! Your asking me for a hug aren't you?!

-Tackles cheese in yet another demented bear hug-

 

[Inappropriate Behavior]

The problem with some new members is that they have more disparate personality parts than others. Forming an externally coherent front out of them is then more difficult, as different observers draw different generalities from their behaviour. The persona cannot then be established, and different subjective judgements are formed of subsequent behaviour. Compounding this is the community's attitude towards the poster. Different attitudes elicit different responses, and reinforce old attitudes. Integration with the community as a whole is vital, and this means establishing a persona and attitudes in the minds of the community that is coherent enough with the poster's perception of self. Widely varying attitudes mean certain behaviours which perhaps should be pruned are not, as the interactions with different members suggest different necessities.

Can it not be said that all of us have faced these difficulties? I may be misunderstanding you completely here but it seems that you are implying that things are different for new people now than they were 6 months ago. Am I getting it right?

I did something very uncharacteristic of me when I joined. I found this forum, signed up and posted in about 10 minutes. I didn't lurk to get a feel for the place, I just jumped in. In ten minutes I went from not realising a forum for any particular personality type even existed to doing an intro. There was a different feel to the place back then (you were here so you know) and some of the topics and posts were intellectually intimidating. I hung in there for a couple months, probably came across as a bigger dunce than I do today even but eventually figured out that I could just do and say whatever I wanted on a subject. If it helped spur the debate fine, if not, there was always the corrupt, ban or kill threads (I'm pretty good at those!) The point is, I'm not sure why anyone who comes here needs to front a persona. Why do you think some do?

Maybe we should post an anouncement under the banner:
INTPforum, where you don't have to impress anyone.

 

[Sapphire Harp]

I know I'm coming off pretty harsh and close-minded, but I'm feeling strongly about this.

The sense I've gotten over time - a lot of us are here for the open, honest, un-judged expression. Letting down your guard, revealing those hidden emotions, admitting the problems to which we have no answers. Understanding ourselves and our particular personality type differences and difficulties.

I think someone who is deceptive about who they are, what they are, and what they want will inevitably diminish this kind of openness to some degree. In any serious discussion it's very difficult to open up without some kind of mutual understanding.

We are inclined to dislike persons who we don't understand, but I would like to note that Face is deliberately trying to be impossible to understand. This is very clear when we have to speculate about what he's doing on the forum.

With no mutual vulnerability on the forum, there's no motivation to be accountable for your actions on the forum. I'm guessing, but I don't think Face has any personal investment in this community. Whatever Face wants, I think it is very different from the goals of the community, if not completely contradictory to them.

Also, I didn't check the numbers, but it seems like Face posts more frequently than anyone else on the board, and posts broadly. Had things continued on, would Face eventually be posting in every topic?
​

 

[cheese]

IA:
Oh no, sorry it still wasn't clear enough.

Persona:
1) external representation of self, enacted by the self
2) external representation of self, in an observer's mind

I was talking more about 2).
The formation of the persona is largely an unconscious process comprising observation, interactions and the personal responses to them. I don't mean that anyone is setting out to "represent" himself in a particular way, rather that a perception of the poster is inevitably formed in the observer's mind. If this doesn't gel with the poster's perception of self then he will try to alter how others perceive him. Likewise if there are many different perceptions floating around a persona cannot be established, making argument about the person almost meaningless - like arguing without having the key terms clearly defined. Again, some INTPs are made up of more odds and ends than others (yes, all INTPs are full of surprises, but on every spectrum there are extremes), which makes a persona, or perception of the poster, that is congruent across the board, very difficult to achieve as different observers draw the personality portrait based on different observations.

I hope that cleared what I was trying to say a little. I apologise if it's just made it worse, as I suspect it has!

*edit
I may be misunderstanding you completely here but it seems that you are implying that things are different for new people now than they were 6 months ago. Am I getting it right?
I wasn't making this point. I think you confused it with Cow's on the Invisible Boundaries thread? I'm not sure what to think of this point; if necessary I'll come back to it later.



Sapphire Harp:
I think you made good points. There are just two things I disagree with:

1) Having to be immediately open about yourself.
- Openness is desirable of course, but if it's not forthcoming - and this should be quite likely with INTPs - then we shouldn't complain. I know Face was probably deliberately trying to confuse, but I believe this is more the result of immaturity than innate "evil" or a desire to destroy the forum. You see children play these kinds of games a lot. I believe in time Face would loosen up and reveal more of himself, or at least stop trying to deceive as much. I don't think his "trial" time has been long enough for the requisite familiarity and feeling of safety to have set in.

2) Personal investment here.
- I am guessing he's more personally invested than we realise. I just discovered a Word of the Week thread he tried to start today. The posts there were serious and seemed to reflect genuine desire to do something of worth (unfortunately he was banned before this could materialise).
I also think Face may have less F than most of us. (This would explain insensitivity, inappropriate humour, difficulty in integrating etc.) Most of his posts are completely lacking in any emotional tone. Occasionally however he does interact on a more emotional level with others. I see hope in this, not evidence he's trying to establish false rapport in order to justify future trolling sprees.


Of course it's difficult to establish anything concrete just from posts, and I haven't even gone through them all (yet!).



Cow:
Aaargh that hurt!

- wipes off Fe slime -

 

[Inappropriate Behavior]

I hope that cleared what I was trying to say a little. I apologise if it's just made it worse, as I suspect it has!

That cleared it up pretty well, the misunderstanding was all me. I'll have to ponder this further but one thing I don't see is why "if there are many different perceptions floating around a persona cannot be established". Is it impossible or merely difficult? Can a persona be established through persistence and will of the new member?

 

[cheese]

^Just a quick answer:

Eventually, yes. But when said member is prematurely banned or ostracised, a unification and/or pruning of the various perceptions obviously becomes impossible.

 

[Da Blob]

I just cut and pasted this from one of my papers...

To know oneself, one may reflect on one's inner experience, but one also needs to know how one is seen by others. This external knowledge can be obtained only through the feedback provided by others. The reactions of others will not be very valuable unless they are in response to parts of ourselves that we care about, and these can be known to others only if we are willing to disclose them. If one never takes any meaningful actions towards disclosure but remains at a level of trivial conversation, the quality of what is reflected back will be at the same level. In addition, feedback from others is self-disclosure on their part. If one is in a group/forum where members will not disclose either their inner responses or their reactions to what others say, think, and feel, then personal and collective learning will be severely limited. Disclosure and feedback are the necessary conditions for the development of interpersonal relationships.

The question that we each must face is what to disclose about ourselves when we are eager to gain acceptance and what we keep hidden. The most natural thing to do is to reveal only those things that we are sure will be accepted and keep private what we anticipate others will reject. Yet this sets in place the inner sense that, when others do accept us, it is all a sham they are not in a position to reject the "real me" because I have kept it hidden. If others were to know "what I am really like," if I let them see the ugly parts of me that are unacceptable even to me (which is, after all, why I keep them locked away inside), then they would reject me.

Thus, the acceptance I gain is unacceptable to me, because it is not based on the parts of me that I "know" are unacceptable. I set myself up to believe those who are accepting me as being unacceptable, paradoxically rejecting the very source from which I crave acceptance when I am given the acceptance I seek. Of course, were I able to accept myself, with all my flaws, acceptance by others would be less important to me, and hence I would be less prone to reject the acceptance that I’m offered.

 

[Inappropriate Behavior]

Good post Da Blob.

So now the question is how do we prevent any repeats of what inspired this thread?

-Should we encourage new members to make Intros and as senior/resident members make the effort to repond and welcome the new member?

-Should we encourage new members to be themselves, that it is alright?
(perhaps leading to the self acceptance of the new member?)

What can we do moving forward?

 

[Dissident]

Blob, that was quite brilliant.

 

[Da Blob]

Good post Da Blob.

So now the question is how do we prevent any repeats of what inspired this thread?

-Should we encourage new members to make Intros and as senior/resident members make the effort to repond and welcome the new member?

-Should we encourage new members to be themselves, that it is alright?
(perhaps leading to the self acceptance of the new member?)

What can we do moving forward?

Actually, I think that we should take a page from Mary Shelly's Frankenstein
We should try to invigorate Trolls, Zombies and facetious personas with a real 'social' life... I, myself, am not a people person, I exhibited Trollish behavior out of pure ignorance ...Being banned just once temporarily should be something that perhaps happens more often as a suggestion/motivation for behavior modification. However, Permanent banning may be necessary every once in a while, one deliberately malicious person can do a great deal of damage to a community...

I think perhaps using the PM function more often with the new members if only to guide them to buried threads, etc. - might be a responsibility that the "Established Members of the Community" take upon themselves...
Yes I believe an intro piece should be a requirement...
I have always said hello to new people when they've posted in the INTROIT

Accepting new ones? That's tough, I am a snob at heart, I like that the forum seems to only attract The Elite - I do not know if we want to accept everyone, certainly not until they have 'proven' their Selves
in some way...

 

[Inappropriate Behavior]

I do not know if we want to accept everyone, certainly not until they have 'proven' their Selves
in some way...

This is the only part of the post I would disagree with. My convincing myself early on that I didn't have to prove myself is instrumental in my staying. If I felt then that I did have to prove myself, I would have lasted about a week as my indecisiveness would have led to anxiety which would have led to me leaving with a sense of failure that would have lasted for weeks. I'm of the opinion to give everyone a chance to find out for themselves if this is a good place for them. Obviously some behavior shouldn't be tolerated.

 

[Da Blob]

This is the only part of the post I would disagree with. My convincing myself early on that I didn't have to prove myself is instrumental in my staying. If I felt then that I did have to prove myself, I would have lasted about a week as my indecisiveness would have led to anxiety which would have led to me leaving with a sense of failure that would have lasted for weeks. I'm of the opinion to give everyone a chance to find out for themselves if this is a good place for them. Obviously some behavior shouldn't be tolerated.

You are correct, that phrase carries too many negative connotations.

I think what I meant, was more in the line of, making an investment in the forum

in honesty, active listening etc...

 

[Inappropriate Behavior]

^^Agreed

(we seem to be doing that more lately. what gives!?)

I think it is important for us who have been here awhile to make our own efforts so we don't get percieved as cliquish.

 

[Sapphire Harp]

Yes I believe an intro piece should be a requirement...
I have always said hello to new people when they've posted in the INTROIT

Accepting new ones? That's tough, I am a snob at heart, I like that the forum seems to only attract The Elite - I do not know if we want to accept everyone, certainly not until they have 'proven' their Selves in some way...

This is the only part of the post I would disagree with. My convincing myself early on that I didn't have to prove myself is instrumental in my staying. If I felt then that I did have to prove myself, I would have lasted about a week as my indecisiveness would have led to anxiety which would have led to me leaving with a sense of failure that would have lasted for weeks. I'm of the opinion to give everyone a chance to find out for themselves if this is a good place for them. Obviously some behavior shouldn't be tolerated.

I concur with Inappropriate Behavior - I don't think there should be any proving or revealing required. I don't think intro threads should be required, although they should be greatly encouraged. If someone wants to say a few things, but aren't ready to reveal themselves - that's great! It's the way to become ready.

This particular case is atypical because Face was so active with so little disclosure. It's also atypical because of the deception involved. It is one thing to not reveal and something entirely different to lie.​

 

[Da Blob]

I concur with Inappropriate Behavior - I don't think there should be any proving or revealing required. I don't think intro threads should be required, although they should be greatly encouraged. If someone wants to say a few things, but aren't ready to reveal themselves - that's great! It's the way to become ready.

This particular case is atypical because Face was so active with so little disclosure. It's also atypical because of the deception involved. It is one thing to not reveal and something entirely different to lie.

ArrrGH! I wrote a lengthy post admitting the use of the phrase "proving one's Self" was not appropriate, because of the numerous negative connotations.

Apparently Dumbass here forgot to hit the submit button...

point that was trying to be made was that sincere newcomers, perhaps, should make some type of investment...

 

[Sapphire Harp]

ArrrGH! I wrote a lengthy post admitting the use of the phrase "proving one's Self" was not appropriate, because of the numerous negative connotations. Apparently Dumbass here forgot to hit the submit button...

It got through, Blob, I just didn't cite it... We're all on the same page about this detail.
​

 

[sagewolf]

I think it is important for us who have been here awhile to make our own efforts so we don't get percieved as cliquish.

I agree with that a million times over. When I joined this forum, I did the same thing IB did: I jumped into the discussions all over the board and posted left, right, and centre. (My earlier posts put some of what I've produced lately to shame, too, when I look at them now.) I think I posted about 30 or 40 times before I even noticed the Introit section (Jesin had to PM me to tell me it was there )

I stayed because the forum members were so open and welcoming. If I'd felt that I had to prove myself, or that I was on a 'probation' period of sorts, then I would have left. That's what INTPc feels like. And if this place starts feeling like INTPc... *shudder* No. Please, just no. We should be as welcoming and accepting as we can be. One of Face's main problems, as far as I was concerned, was that not only was he not willing to share his own details with us-- not a problem in itself-- but he was also extremely negative, and even derogatory, at times when other members aired their own opinions and shared aspects of their own minds. To an established member that's nothing: we know our way around and can't be shaken so much by one annoyance when there are other productive members; to a new arrival it can be a severe deterrent to staying at all.

 

[Da Blob]

I certainly did not mean to imply that we should not welcome new people.

I am just concerned about not throwing the baby out with the bath water. I have been here just for a few months and I usually enjoy the company. However, there have been some 'good people' that used to participate, who no longer do so?

How many did Face drive away? (or worse, how many have I driven away?)

I think our INTPness, kinda predestinates us into a 'clique-ish' POV, but That's because I think people have a tendency to compare us to Others. I really think this INTP group is unique-ish not clique-ish...

Maybe we should post a trespassing warning on the home page "Beware, all Those Who Enter Here. These are not 'normal' people and need to be given a degree of respect, if you're not 'normal' as well then "Welcome Home..."

or something like that...?

 

[Inappropriate Behavior]

I've seen people come and go since before you or face and if you look back far enough, people who have come and gone before I got here or most of the other current members. We have no way of determing if anyone has driven another away or not.

The only thing I saw anyone do that could have scared off a new poster right away is when face was the first to answer a Introit post with a "Fuck you". That could have earned her an immediate ban and at many places, it would have

 

[Sapphire Harp]

The only thing I saw anyone do that could have scared off a new poster right away is when face was the first to answer a Introit post with a "Fuck you". That could have earned her an immediate ban and at many places, it would have

I think it did. http://intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=2244

*Hmm... should have read that more carefully. I was saying 'think it did' earn Face a ban. And I'm sure it was part of the reason... *goes away now.*
​

 

[sagewolf]

There will always be posters on any forum who post for a little while then disappear, or who simply lose interest in the community. If they're not here anymore, they might have simply lost interest in the way I just mentioned, or they might have discovered other commitments, or they're just not seen as often because there are more posts and threads now than there used to be. Like IB said, it's impossible to say if one person is the reason another leaves or disappears.

I don't think we have a tendency to be clique-ish because we're INTPs-- indeed, I have a great personal dislike for cliques and closed groups. When I joined here, this place was definitely not like that-- it was the polar opposite (I don't think it's like that now, either). A long-standing member here started a conversation with me in a thread just for the sake of being open and welcoming (he actually said that in one of the posts), and my opinions were never taken any less seriously than anyone else's. From the instant I walked in, it was like I'd always been here-- that's how you create an open atmosphere. Posting a trespassing warning on the home page, though, like the one you mentioned, would create a little of that air that makes INTPc so uninviting. No-one is trespassing here. It's not that the door is open: there is no door. L'admission c'est gratuit.

 

[Ben]

I never liked that Face. Seemed like a tool.

 

[Anthile]

I think it did. http://intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=2244

*Hmm... should have read that more carefully. I was saying 'think it did' earn Face a ban. And I'm sure it was part of the reason... *goes away now.*
​

Yes, it was. In fact he got an infraction for that.

 

[Sapphire Harp]

I never liked that Face. Seemed like a tool.

While I (more or less) agree, we need better reasons than that for whatever the forum is going to decide.
​

 

[sagewolf]

Indeed. We can't kick people out of the forum because no-one likes them, or because most people think their posts are lacking substance: they need to be genuinely and substantially a negative influence on the atmosphere and content of the forum.

Frankly, I think Face was. If he thought it was acceptable to tell someone to 'fuck off' in response to an introduction thread, or to respond to another member's request for creative aid with a derogatory comment on that member's plans, or to consistently derail threads through off-topic conversations with other people (all of which he did) then he wasn't only disrupting the atmosphere of the forum, he was skewing the image of the community here, and its implicit conventions, rules and allowances, in the minds of new members.

 

[inquiringF]

I never envisioned INTPs as very dramatic, protective, and territorial. You are all despondently assaying something ample for flaws--which will indubitably contain them logically considering the size. There are levels, but, from what I've observed, no one has crossed any. Some of the 'flaws' indicated seem to be normal ones that could be pinpointed in many people's history. Cease trying to denounce someone as a major problem when they are most likely a minor one. I'm going to laugh at you all when you realize this was melodrmatic. - Long-time observer, INTJ

 

[loveofreason]

Laugh with us when you realise we maybe are enjoying a little melodramatic debate.

 

[Artifice Orisit]

Don't you watch anime? Melodrama is fashionable now-a-days.

But yes your right, the people here have "issues".
They're called unique personality traits.

 

[inquiringF]

Don't you watch anime? Melodrama is fashionable now-a-days.

But yes your right, the people here have "issues".
They're called unique personality traits.

The removal of their individuality is essential for our triumph with creating a robotic army of INTP's.

 

[Artifice Orisit]

Robotic army?
*raises one eyebrow and smiles in a most disturbing way*

Well why didn't you just say so.

 

[cheese]

From IA:
I think it is important for us who have been here awhile to make our own efforts so we don't get percieved as cliquish.

-Should we encourage new members to make Intros and as senior/resident members make the effort to repond and welcome the new member?

-Should we encourage new members to be themselves, that it is alright?
(perhaps leading to the self acceptance of the new member?)


These are good suggestions. I don't know if they might've helped Face (I think it's possible they would have) but it would certainly have benefited me. I am sure it was unintentional but I did sense a little clique-mentality when I first started posting (even a little now), and often felt left out or ignored. I think this is probably a natural result of familiarity - members will respond more to people they know well already - but my best welcomes came from the newer members.
I think because we are introverts it's important to extend an especially warm welcome, because it takes a lot for us to interact even online, behind the safety of a screen. If not met with significant encouragement it can be easy to give up despondently and go away.

Da Blob wrote a good piece (part of a much longer one that's very interesting and on another thread), but I don't know if interpersonal growth is the main purpose of this forum (although of course it's desirable). A certain degree of harmony is necessary to facilitate discussion, but a lack of self-disclosure - even intentional misleading - is not really a serious problem if it does not inhibit the development of threads. That's how I see it so far anyway. (Also just on a side note: what evidence do we have that Face was lying?)

Also, the "Fuck you" post was an isolated incident. Rudeness and so on in other posts were probably attempts at humour by a severely malfunctioning Fe. Again, there was evidence in other places that Face did not intend to hurt (eg when he occasionally did manage to connect on an emotional level). What is required here is guidance not exclusion.

If he thought it was acceptable to tell someone to 'fuck off' in response to an introduction thread - Sagewolf

Actually I remember Melkor doing something similar, although perhaps it was slightly less offensive. I remember being quite shocked as I had been under the impression he was well-meaning enough. The other forum members however quickly smoothed over this incident with explanations and entreaties to understand the humourous nature of his posts.

Melkor is a long-standing and accepted member of the community, and what may be considered huge offences by FaceTheOutsider are seen as minor indiscretions by OurFriendMelkor. Again, your understanding of where a poster fits in the community will colour your perception of their posts.

 

[Sapphire Harp]

Also, the "Fuck you" post was an isolated incident. Rudeness and so on in other posts were probably attempts at humour by a severely malfunctioning Fe.

Isolated, perhaps, because it was the end of the line? Here are the other two most recent greetings for new users by Face, before the profane one.

Face: Everyone here is an intellectual snob. You should run.

Face: It is not fun to be a loser in high school. (Referring to the new poster)

The first one is kind of a joke, but maybe not - depends on how you take it (I'll come back to that in a bit.) The second one... really not. No one else used that word and I it's very uncouth to pick a word that you know is likely to distress someone by being too close to home.
​

Melkor is a long-standing and accepted member of the community, and what may be considered huge offences by FaceTheOutsider are seen as minor indiscretions by OurFriendMelkor. Again, your understanding of where a poster fits in the community will colour your perception of their posts.

First off, I don't personally perceive the new/outsider vs. old/family difference. I've been around a couple months, but I'm still just getting to know and understand everyone. And I really haven't interacted before as I'm doing now. Maybe it is happening for other people, but I don't think that's the bigger issue here.

A lot of this discussion has been about why Face acted like he did. You think he was having fun while being fairly blind about other people's emotional reactions. I think he was having fun at other people's expense. With Face's intentions so obfuscated - we don't have any solid threads to test for an answer. The time he stated his purpose was to provoke people doesn't clear up whether it was to stimulate things or for his own amusement at other's discomfort and disruption. There isn't evidence either way - it comes down to a judgement call by other people.

My first reaction to most of Face's posts was that they usually go too far in one way or another. Too far off-topic, too insensitive in their dealings, too harsh in their criticism... Face's presence brought an abrasiveness to the forum I hadn't seen in any almost any other member. I gather the moderators decided this was the case, too, when they chose to ban him.
​

 

[cheese]

Just personally:
Neither of the two jokes you mentioned riled me particularly when I read them (back when they were posted). They seemed unusual, but especially with the second more like an identification with the label than an insult. Of course interpretations are subjective and so on.

I only mentioned the difference in the way a poster can be perceived because I thought it relevant to the discussion. Doubtless he was sometimes abrasive, but I also saw posts of sympathy and emotional connection. If someone takes a dislike to Face (especially easy during his introductory period, where he's still finding his feet especially in relating to other people) it will colour their readings of his post.
There isn't evidence either way - it comes down to a judgement call by other people.
Exactly.

Which is precisely why I think he should be given a second chance. If his intentions are basically good he will at least attempt to stick to the clearly-stated boundaries I've suggested before. If they're not, we shall see. Presently I believe there isn't enough evidence to decide either way for a permanent ban, which is all I wish to point out. Face's return, if attended by certain conditions, will provide a fairer test.

 

[loveofreason]

Face has been assigned to Siberia for the remaining two days of the ban period.

AllKnowingCow, your patient awaits you.

 

[cheese]

Good news!

I hope it turns out well.

Note to Cow:
Do not attempt bear hugs, even sane ones.