The ethics of suicide prevention

[Vrecknidj]

I ran into an interesting argument the other day and it seemed like the kind of thing that INTPs generally would appreciate. We are, after all, a bunch of folks who sometimes slide toward the morbid.

Claim: Everyone who successfully committed suicide shouldn't have.

Okay, that's it. This is where the fun begins. First of all, there are going to be those in support of the claim. After all, if death is bad then suicide is bad and if killing is bad then suicide is bad. Second, there are going to be those who deny the claim. There will be arguments for things like euthanasia from mercy killings to physician-assisted suicides and everything in between. Heck, there might even be some folks who will argue that some folks who committed suicide made the world a better place by taking themselves out of the world.

But, where things get even more interesting is when we consider the ambiguity of the phrase "suicide prevention." After all, one thing we might mean by "suicide prevention" is that people should prevent others from killing themselves. We can call this the "take the gun from his hand" version of suicide prevention.

Another thing we might mean by "suicide prevention" is that people should be concerned with others' welfare such that they'll intervene, so that people who might otherwise end up attempting suicide are affected so that they no longer have that desire. We might call this the "preemptive solution" version of suicide prevention.

I think that's suitable to get the conversation flowing.

Dave

 

[Ogion]

Heya Vrecknidj!

I don't have much to say about Suicide, since i have no experience about it (well, of course no first-hand, but i don't know of anybody else in my surroundings committing suicide either).

So my short stance towards it: I would probably try to talk someone out of it, but if the person is really committed to the iea, really wants to, i wouldn't forcefully stop them. I wouldn't help either though.
'Cause in the end i would say it's their live, their existence, not mine. It should be their right to do it.

Ogion

 

[Artifice Orisit]

If I care about someone I'll prevent them from doing it... I've done a lot of this actually; but if I don't know them or don't care about them I'll just sit back and let them make the choice themselves, normally if somebody really intends to kill themself they will not give you an opportunity to intervene. The denial of choice, however altruistic the intentions may be, is in essence a selfish act, a denial of the basic human right to make their own choice.

Of course when I use the term "selfish" I don't mean imply the moral imperatives that would normally applied to the term; it's not necessarily wrong to save someone's life if they have some sort of value to you (sentimental or otherwise) as it is merely a protection of your own interests. Also I do believe that when you save somebody's life (from suicide) you become responsible for them, not in the literal sense that you "own" them, instead that they will now expect you to save them in the future, they now rely on you for having a meaning to live.

For better or worse you become their keeper.
This is especially strange when the person in question is one of your parents.
It's an odd sort of selfishness.

 

[loveofreason]

Don't we first have to decide who 'owns' a life?

To what extent are we responsible for ourselves? To what extent are we responsible for the people around us? To what extent is our community and/or its members responsible for us?

It would be interesting to know to what extent we are owned by which interest. Then one might suppose that the majority investor has the ultimate responsibility.

When we decide who is responsible then we can discuss whether or not they 'should' prevent the death of their interest in each and every circumstance.

Or is responsibility for life the wrong paradigm altogether?


(And I don't envy the situation you are describing, Cognisant.)

 

[Artifice Orisit]

Responsibility isn't quite the right word, as it implies duty & obligation.

You could say people are responsible for looking after their shoes but you wouldn't call it their duty or obligation, unless they're requisitioned military boots or something.
It's like how the term "respect" could imply either reverence, civility or fear.

My opinion is that someone undertakes personal responsibility for anyone they prevent from committing suicide which then comes with a degree of influence over that person and the guilt of responsibility should they happen to die at a later date. Only by having the person who was saved obtain psychological independence for themselves or die of natural causes can the saviour be freed from this burden of responsibility. In theory the saviour could abandon the person they saved; although this is effectively like trying to kill someone without being responsible for their death, that is to say it’s a cowardly way out which doesn’t work anyway.
Sociopaths don’t have this problem though, but of course they’re insane.

So the saviour does not have to be responsible, but a price must be paid for this freedom.

 

[echoplex]

Probably the ultimate suicide prevention (aside from say, contraceptive, heh) is a stable home with loving parents. It's really the only one that's "on time" so to speak. All others are late to address the real problem(s) at hand, and so serve as a panicky, often contrived effort to stop someone from doing something they want to do.

That's not to say there aren't suicidal people from loving homes too, but there are usually more extreme external situations at play there.

Obligatory Godwin's Law evocation: Should Hitler have killed himself? How would one argue that he shouldn't have? All questions can be answered by bringing Hitler into the discussion.

I personally have no problem with euthanasia, depending on a few variables. I would save someone if I could, but I know that won't address the reason behind their motivation. The best thing is to simply love others and try to make them smile (Fe alert!). That's really all you can do to improve others' lives, for the most part.

 

[saffyangelis]

I think, that if it's someone's choice to kill themselves, and if it's their final decision, they've thought about it, tried every other possible route out and everything, basically ensured that it's their only option and that they have nothing to live for, then I don't think I'd be able to help. I'd want to try and talk them out of it, but if someone ever got into that situation, I think I'd feel like I had to be there with them, help them to die if I needed to, just so that they wouldn't have to die alone.

I support euthenasia, as I know that if I was diagnosed with an illness that was going to cause me great pain, or I'd not be able to look after myself, I'd want to die on my own terms, and leave as happy a memory as I could of myself for those I'd leave behind. I wouldn't want to have someone's last memories of me as a burden, and I don't think that anyone else would want that so I think we should at least all have the right to choose.

In the end though, for pretty much everything to do with suicide, if a person has made up their mind, and there's no hope in trying to change their decision, I think I'd have to make sure that they're dying as painlessly as possible, and that they've made sure that everything will be okay for their family and friends after. If there's a chance of changing their mind, I'd have to try and do that. Otherwise, I'd always feel responsible, and I'd wonder what it would have been like if they'd lived instead, and if they'd managed to stop whatever it was that was making them want to die. Basically, if there's a chance of hope then I'd try and get them to go for it. If they don't have anything left to hope for, then there's no point in living imo.

 

[Vrecknidj]

The ownership issue is a fascinating tangent. As a parent, I've noted something like the following.

As an adult, I think it makes some sense to say that I own myself. I mean this in a sort of legal and moral sense. I'm the one who does and should make decisions about and for myself, and I'm the one to hold to account for those. My children, when they were born, in a certain important sense, were owned by me and my wife. We were responsible for virtually all the decisions made about their lives and we set them on the courses of their lives (which, of course, implies that we helped shape within them the ability to act as autonomous agents). As they've aged, especially during the adolescent phase, we've let go of certain areas in their lives as they've been encouraged to pick up more and more of this. Should parents do this correctly (which implies a sliding scale of correctness, not a right/wrong dichotomy), then the children will become adults who then belong to themselves instead of their parents. We see this, actually, in common (perhaps heated) dialogue whenever a teenager defiantly exclaims to a parent "You don't own me!"

A similar issue comes up with competency. It is possible, I suppose through kinship or affiliative relations, or through legal avenues, to become responsible for someone else even if that someone else is not a child. So, I might one day have to make important decisions regarding my wife's well being, or my mother's (my wife has already had to make important decisions about her father's life as he slowly passed away a couple years ago).

Suicide brings in new and challenging perspectives on all this. Some instances of euthanasia seem more kind than others, most instances of murder seem outright and obviously wrong, so it isn't the killing, per se, that defines all this. (Anyone see the film Million Dollar Baby, by the way?)

Dave

 

[dents]

My first brush with suicidal people happened on this board. There was a thread where a member posted that she was going to kill herself one day and was looking for others that shared that viewpoint, while specifically saying she did not want advice or to be talked out of it because it's all been decided for a long time. Some people would post up advice anyways and others kept yelling at them. At first, I was pretty irate about it. If it's already decided, then why are these people still talking about it? It's really not that hard to blow your head off, do it already and quit wasting our time. I kept my mouth shut because even though anger was washing over me and I was thinking these thoughts, I knew that it was wrong to think them and I should cool down before saying anything I would regret. Then eventually she changed her mind and said she was glad to have gotten all that advice after all. This made me feel physically ill for a while, as I thought about all the terrible things that went through my head earlier.

I completely agree that everyone who successfully committed suicide shouldn't have. Human life is precious and should never be wasted. Now that cryonics is to the point of being viable, there is no reason for euthanasia either. My perspective is that a human life is worth more than the lack of one. If I may use a computer science term, the utility function of a life is always positive. While you are alive, you can still deal with any problem that you are faced with. There is no situation that cannot be dealt with, in one way or another. But when you are dead, then there is no possible way of changing that.

 

[Fedayeen]

The way I see it it is just death, and people take too much concern over death. The only thing wrong with death is that those societies believe death in general is wrong. Though they don't really have any reason to believe something is right or wrong. Only that it is immoral. Yet where does the foundation of immorality come from?

 

[The Fury]

This thread reminds me of waterstiller, I haven't seen her in ages. Her biography says
"Thank You. Goodbye". I wonder does that mean she finally went through with it...

 

[Enne]

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationw...suicide24-2009may24,0,6917080.story?track=rss

 

[Vrecknidj]

My perspective is that a human life is worth more than the lack of one. If I may use a computer science term, the utility function of a life is always positive. While you are alive, you can still deal with any problem that you are faced with.

If counter examples were provided, would you be willing to say, instead, that "human life is almost always worth more than the lack of one"?

There are a few very rare cases, such as a tiny handful of spina bifida cases, where, for example, a baby is born and its pain cannot be managed other than by leaving it in a coma, and even the very best treatment available (which may include something like more than one surgery per week) will do nothing but prolong its life--in a coma--until it dies at some point in its first year.

Hard to find utility in that kind of case.

*Note: I'm not suggesting that policy be based on such bizarre outliers, but I am suggesting that these cases offer solid counter examples to the view that every life is always better lived.

Dave

 

[Cobra]

Responsibility isn't quite the right word, as it implies duty & obligation.

You could say people are responsible for looking after their shoes but you wouldn't call it their duty or obligation, unless they're requisitioned military boots or something.

Prerogative?

EDIT:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationw...suicide24-2009may24,0,6917080.story?track=rss

So incredibly funny.

 

[Enne]

t's not so much that I would want to kil myself/end it all or w/e. It's just that being stuck in this body is so ...heavy. Sometimes I get sick of carrying it around..I would like to spend some time as a non entity, just floating around, or even wake up with a completely different existance. I'm not tired of life, just of my life, and I think it sucks that you can't shut down your brain or transfer it to another body or object like a file going from hard drive to hard drive. I just feel stuck in the same shit over and over again, and I need an escape. I guess that's part of the reason a lot of depressed/suicidal people are into drugs? The escape, if only a temporary illusion? Anyway, I find that being you all the time is boring, unless you're being allowed the chance to grow, adapt and have new experiences,and even then being able to literally walk in someone else's shoes would be cool.

 

[Cobra]

My boss' son's best friend just threw himself into a train yesterday.

Thank you all for your thoughts today and emails. It was appreciated and loved, thank you .Charlie is shocked and not comprehending what is transpiring. It will come.

Charlie's friend was [removed first name] Black. A group of "best friend boys" come here and made a huge cross painted black and took it to the memorial service to be signed be all the kids. The memorial service for the kids is at the Black house tonight. They have a beautiful home and are are having a candlelight service for his friends tonight. The church services on the weekend.

He did leave a note as noted in the press. I'm struggling what to say about that since I read it other than it was planned and so very sad.

Again, thank you for your thoughts.

L

To lose my best friend (even though I'm a bit peeved with mine at the moment) would be... like losing half my mind.

EDIT: Please no jokes about the newly formed sentence "Charlie's friend was Black" accompanied by cross jokes.

 

[Fedayeen]

EDIT: Please no jokes about the newly formed sentence "Charlie's friend was Black" accompanied by cross jokes.

lol, I didn't notice that until you pointed it out.

 

[dents]

I would like to spend some time as a non entity, just floating around, or even wake up with a completely different existance.

Why don't you just remove yourself from your present environment for a while? For example, I spend my days coding in the engineering labs and people at school think of me as a CS nerd that is way too much into in (which is true). But sometimes I take my car to the local drag strip, where there is absolutely nobody that knows me. The only thing they know about me is what they can discern from looking at my car. I'm usually not social and only come there for the adrenaline rush of running the 1/4 mile, but if I do end up talking to people, it's always about my car and never has anything to do with anything that goes on at school, at all. The experience is exactly like being a different person.

 

[Decaf]

It would be interesting to know to what extent we are owned by which interest. Then one might suppose that the majority investor has the ultimate responsibility.

For most of us, their life belongs to the most powerful investor, not necessarily the most important one. That's why attempted suicide is a crime. The state is not the majority investor, but it is the most powerful and is perfectly willing to take away your freedom to prevent you from making a choice it disagrees with.

Of course the state is just a function of the culture and especially so in this case. It could easily be said that relationships are stock. By participating in a culture, that culture owns stock in you. By raising children, those children have stock in you. By cutting off friendships and living on the streets you effectively remove everyone else's claim on you except those that believe in the brotherhood of mankind (religious or secular).

Something I learned from my experience in the military. There are times when NOT having a choice is the best thing that can happen to you. This is one of the basic tenets that any successful military is built on. Humans have a natural aversion to killing other humans. You can't fill your ranks with sociopaths (the Japanese tried creating them and is still dealing with the cultural consequences), so you have to figure out a way to get normal people to go against their own instincts to do something they might disagree with, and you have to do it while creating as little psychological scarring as possible. Its simple. Don't give them a choice. Desertion is punishable by death in times of war.

Why I bring that up is because I support the "take the gun out of their hand" approach. In fact I think that the simple experience of having suicide taken away as an option can significantly improve matters for the individual. Whatever stress is bearing down on them is infinitely more bearable when there is no morbid choice to make rolling around in the back of your head.

If I didn't believe that, I would probably be much less assertive towards prevention. Its one of the reasons I hesitate with supporting euthanasia, even though on the surface it seems perfectly reasonable to me. By providing the option the state of the individual is immediately made worse.

This made me feel physically ill for a while, as I thought about all the terrible things that went through my head earlier.

I've been in your shoes and I agree so much my head is gonna shake off my shoulders. It still makes me tear up when I think about a piece of advice I gave to a friend years ago who ended up being swayed by another friend to not go through with it and is doing just fine now. We've lost contact and I can't get past that feeling long enough to send him any email.

 

[Felan]

I had a friend at work tell me that she was thinking about suicide. I went over to my boss' cube just to say that I might take a longer lunch than normal, but little fell to pieces once there (well as much as an INTP tends to).

My boss told me to do whatever it takes for my friend. There are some very good sites about addressing people considering suicide. If I hadn't had time to do some research into it before meeting with my friend for lunch I doubt I would have done any good. In essence the recommended approach to ask the questions you would prefer to avoid, "Are you going to do it?" "When?" "Where?" "How?" Don't judge or anything, just ask them if they will put it off a day or a week and promise that if they decide to do it that they call you (any time of day or night) first.

I followed the advice somewhat clumsily and was shocked at how much thought she had put into it. I got her promise and she is still living and last I saw her is much happier. Shortly after that I had another friend tell me they were going to commit suicide, so I repeated and he is doing well.

I don't know how much of what i did made a difference but i am happy at least that i didn't do the wrong things. Even now talking about this drags tears out of me and makes me all snotty.

 

[dents]

If counter examples were provided, would you be willing to say, instead, that "human life is almost always worth more than the lack of one"?

I have to admit that my implicit definition of "human life" only included people that had the capacity to commit suicide. When your example is included, then I would change my definition from "always" to "usually". However, if a deformed baby's brain can be preserved (via cryonics for example), I would fight for that to be done in all cases. My worldview does not preclude the possibility that a brain can be scanned and replicated digitally eventually.

 

[Vrecknidj]

However, if a deformed baby's brain can be preserved (via cryonics for example), I would fight for that to be done in all cases. My worldview does not preclude the possibility that a brain can be scanned and replicated digitally eventually.

This brings up the related question. I, for one, believe that organ donation is wonderful and intend to have whatever organs remain of my body donated, if possible, upon my death. However, I am worried about one. I presume that if I donated by brain, the recipient wouldn't really be the recipient.

In other words, I think that in the case of a brain transplant, I'd rather be the donor.

But then, this gets into the metaphysics of what it means to be a person and forces us to consider that a person might be 1) a brain or 2) the contents of a brain.

If that turns out to be true, then persons might be saved from suicide even after the fact, once technology progresses enough. (Depending upon the method, of course, there are ways of committing suicide that would prevent the contents of the brain from being accessible.)

Dave