Book Club Proposal

[TBerg]

Hey members of INTPf,

I was just thinking about how we could add a more proactive fixture to this forum. As curious individuals sometimes groping for a sort of hope the desire for which much of the rest of the world does not even understand, sometimes we want to push ourselves to understand things very well. We study many things on our own, but we don't always have people to make our experience a little more interactive. Like Zarathustra, sometimes we weary of our wisdom as bees who have gathered too much honey. We want others to taste it and tell us of their opinion of its flavor. We need some affirmation, even if we sometimes don't realize it. We cannot let our honey become bitter.

If we want to increase the chances of our mutual affirmation and critique, a common set of materials is required. That's why I am proposing the establishment of a book club on this forum. We would agree to a certain text, preferably something we can learn from. It can be fiction, but I would prefer it to be something that can help us connect some of the dots in our minds if we can. Anyway, I think it could really give us purpose and allow us to do what we were constituted to do: understand reality.

Come on, guys. You know you want to!

 

[TimeAsylums]

Ne will consume all yer information

aka I'm up for it, create a schedule, maybe 1 book a week or whatever (although id prefer daily, lul), and then discuss it on a certain day

would be a fun "classroom-like" discussion with all of us and our diff perspectives

 

[TBerg]

Maybe one book a week for smaller texts, but I am not a fast reader, a state that keeps me from being a masterful INTP.

 

[TBerg]

What are your current serious learning interests?

Mine are Freud, Jung, and Christianity.

 

[Happy]

You have my interest, sir and/or madam.

 

[Absurdity]

I'm in.

Edit: Also here's my recommendation for the first book (which happens to be perfectly aligned with my prejudices): Rene Guenon's "The Crisis of the Modern World."

 

[TBerg]

We can do that, but only if we also read Civilization and Its Discontents.

Who is up for which book first?

 

[Puffy]

I wouldn't mind participating, but probably wouldn't in the short term due to other commitments. No reason people couldn't come and go if it was a forum thing though?

I propose Science and Sanity, trololol

 

[TBerg]

Damn Puffy, you must be an uber-INTP. That book looks like somewhat of a monster...to me.

 

[TimeAsylums]

What are your current serious learning interests?

Freud, Jung,

marry me.

 

[TBerg]

Alright, guys. It is time to choose a book. Who votes for which book first?

 

[TBerg]

Come on, guys. Someone be the first to cast the ballot.

 

[whitney4397]

That is literally the best idea I've heard all week. We should read something about history.

 

[Puffy]

^ Haha, I think the most complicated aspect of this is agreeing on a book.

A wider selection should be made for people to vote on, and I think it should be limited to texts that can be accessed for free online. What Absurdity linked to seems like the ideal length to me (definitely a no to Science and Sanity ) unsure if I'd get through anything much longer than a 120-150 pages simply as I have other things to work on simultaneously.

 

[Absurdity]

Well I've already finished the first chapter of the one I recommended...

 

[TimeAsylums]

I'm in.

Edit: Also here's my recommendation for the first book (which happens to be perfectly aligned with my prejudices): Rene Guenon's "The Crisis of the Modern World."

will start and finish this weekend, thnx

 

[TBerg]

Okay. I am declaring myself Cincinnatus and telling everyone to read the book by Rene Guenon. After that, we will read Freud. And then someone else can choose. I am calling this a fair deal, and will relinquish more of my dictatorial power as we become more established and have more discussions.

Happy reading everyone! We reconvene as soon as someone posts an insight, a study question, or context.

 

[whitney4397]

I'm sorry, which book by Rene Guenon?

 

[TimeAsylums]

I'm sorry, which book by Rene Guenon?

Rene Guenon's "The Crisis of the Modern World."

^

we also have a chat box and a search function oh intuitives

 

[TBerg]

Possible Study Questions:

Does primordial metaphysics negate the influx of insights that shift our paradigm closer to reality?

Does the author think closed social systems are preferable to open social systems?

Does the author think that creating a consistent framework of prejudices truly allows their adherents to apprehend Ultimate Reality?

Does any region of the East have any vulgar corruptions of their own thought? Have any of them ever sought to impose their vision about others? Should any of them adapt to any Western virtues instead?

What came first? Material or consciousness? Does this question have any bearing on our claims about Ultimate Reality?

 

[TBerg]

So far, I am understanding that the problem of the West is that it has an atomistic ideology devoid of a singular ache from which is derived embodied logical principles that make sense of the language we use in our lives. Our knowledge is dependent upon actionable statistics whose knowledge mostly pertains to the context of the experiment from which it was derived. We experiment with colonizing other cultures in order to see what they have to offer us in material without respecting the embodied wisdom they have to offer. I would question the premise that it is atomism that causes conflict. It could be that the mascot-arche of the tribe in question is not universalized but functions as a ruler demanding the conquest of those who are not members of the tribe over which he/she/it has authority.

 

[TimeAsylums]

Finished the book while away for the weekend; it was really short, anyway. He is eerily similar to his findings in other modern-thinkers or whatever you want to call it, Jung has pretty much said the exact same things about society, and as usual I agree with most of just about everything written.

East v West, Western failure - anomie, the education, the failures of the elites, the failure of the masses, the failure of shifting individualism onto the masses, this isn't an uncommon problem addressed in philosophy or psych or anything nowadays, people struggling with the lack of real tradition vs individualism, and materialism.

Jung takes a more psychological approach where as this was er...logic/philosophy? rather, all inter-related, both pretty much the same thing as an answer...and many others also laughing at what is currently called a "democracy" and "majority rules."

All-in-all nothing new, but well written imo, and worth the read.

 

[Absurdity]

I've actually been blowing this book off after picking up Godel, Escher, Bach at the library, but I'll try and finish it in the next few days

Also, on a more administrative note, would it be helpful to split the discussion of Guenon into its own thread? Or would it be better to have all book discussions here in case some readings build off of others?

Scattered thoughts:

• His argument that Buddhism is "profane" Eastern thought when compared to Hinduism resonated with me. Though I know little about Hinduism, I think Buddhism gets an exceptionally rosy review by Westerners (which I've touched on before).
• His sympathy for the Middle Ages also piqued my interest, as I know little of the thought produced in that era, and, as a Christian with reactionary sympathies, I think the characterization of the period as a "Dark Age" smacks of "Enlightenment" era propaganda.
• I'm a little under halfway through the book at this point and am getting impatient for him to give an overview of what a restored Western tradition would look like. Having read Guenon's wiki page I know that he initially thought the best hope lay in Catholicism and Freemasonry (oddly, since the two opposed one another), but later gave up on them and converted to Sufism. I'm not sure of the dates but I think this book may have been written after his conversion? If so that would strike me as odd, as he has scarcely made any mention of Islam up to the point I'm at.

 

[Puffy]

I've gotten through the first chapter and would like to read further. Unpredictable when I'll finish though as it's a busy week for me, definitely by next weekend.

So far the emphasis on cyclic periods and entering the end of an age, makes me think of Spengler's descriptions of the West as being in its Winter Phase: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Decline_of_the_West

Might turn out a false comparison, we'll see.

 

[TimeAsylums]

So far the emphasis on cyclic periods and entering the end of an age, makes me think of Spengler's descriptions of the West as being in its Winter Phase: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Decline_of_the_West

Might turn out a false comparison, we'll see.

The materialism/Kali-Yuga/"democracy" fits

specifically:

Decline of abstract thinkers, and the rise of specialized academic philosophy.

 

[TBerg]

The difference between Guenon and Jung, in my opinion, is that Jung embraces the multifacetedness of human impulses and attempts to bring them into a kind of balance, while Guenon treats the multifarious forces as a battle in which one must become superior throughout society, in spite of any injury to the individual person, whom Jung treats as the most important object. Is it possible that Guenon has not learned the lessons of mass psychology? Will someone seize his impulse and convert it into Bonapartism, a la the Decline of the West?

Edit: My personal preference is to keep the same venue for all discussions, so that we don't misplace posts in other threads. I want to make this thread our own very special room, where notes are never forgotten. Is that cool with everyone?

 

[Absurdity]

Is it possible that Guenon has not learned the lessons of mass psychology?

It is possible, since he was writing in the 1920s. I am curious what you mean specifically by "the lessons of mass psychology."

Will someone seize his impulse and convert it into Bonapartism, a la the Decline of the West?

That would be an improvement IMO.

Edit: My personal preference is to keep the same venue for all discussions, so that we don't misplace posts in other threads. I want to make this thread our own very special room, where notes are never forgotten. Is that cool with everyone?

That's fine. I was just wondering if it might be better to create individual book club threads in order to make them easier for newcomers to join in on and to allow discussions to continue for an indeterminate amount of time.

 

[TBerg]

It is possible, since he was writing in the 1920s. I am curious what you mean specifically by "the lessons of mass psychology."

Mass psychology is the production of a singular psychological projection among the masses. As such, it involves taking the same sort of primitive metaphysical reality and imposing it upon the psyches of all members of the group. That is what Guenon is proposing, to put a fine point on it. With access to only one metaphysical master category, one is in some way predestined to hubris in imposing its deductive results upon the objects under one's ideological purview. One's premises are bound to be wrong somewhere, somehow, sometime.

That's fine. I was just wondering if it might be better to create individual book club threads in order to make them easier for newcomers to join in on and to allow discussions to continue for an indeterminate amount of time.

For subsequent books, I will consider it, because it might pique someone's interest if they see a title in which they have a particular interest. And, as you said, it would allow those people to readily join in discussions that call to them.

 

[Puffy]

Ok finished it.

Well, firstly, this is self-evidently to me a work written from an esoteric background, which is something to bear in mind. His tradition necessitates a spiritual reality in which everything, while appearing separate on the basest level of matter, is deeply unified at higher levels. To him the tradition whose principles work towards grasping this unity isn't Christianity, Sufism, "the East", etc, but rather these are historical vessels in which the spirit of the tradition can live for a time before it dies out in those and becomes mediated through different incarnations.

Spengler's historical model actually works very well with this, as in a certain respect spirituality is at its core. Civilisations go through Spring-Summer-Autumn and Winter phases before they inevitably die and new civilisations emerge in their own "spring" phase. One of the strengths of Spengler's hypothesis is in the comparison he makes between the late stages of the Roman Empire before its collapse and the West as it is now:

Winter: Coming fissure in the world-urban civilization. Exhaustion of mental organization strength. Irreligiousness rises.

• Religion: Materialism: Cults of science, utility, and luck. Ethical-social ideals: philosophy without mathematics, skepticism. The last mathematical thinkers. Decline of abstract thinkers, and the rise of specialized academic philosophy. Spread of the last ideas.
• Art: End of symbolic art. All art becomes meaningless subjects of fashion.
• Politics: Democracy, meritocracy, plutocracy, followed by caesarism and bureaucracy.

You see it in Guenon's conclusion too but, like Spengler, to him this historical process is inevitable. We can't create a new tradition and reverse this now. Rather we can work towards finding vessels for the traditional spirit that will be fully realised in the "spring" of future generations (much like how Christianity/ Catholicism was born out of the death of Rome).

Spoiler

Personal biases it gels with:

- I think Christianity is a dead vessel, I'm unsure if it will 'live' again in this civilization in any significant way.
- I think there is today a preponderance of "the sign" that is in its current state a "dead relation" that detaches one from their relationships in the world and in turn alienates one from their self. This is a "materialising" process in contrast to "symbols" that imply a "living relation" that rather than alienating affirm self. The self can only be exposed through living synergistic relationships, you can't get to it through individualism which ironically separates you from your self.
- Authentic faith "lives", abstract faith (faith of the sign) is a dead faith.
- I have a big interest in the architectural theories of Christopher Alexander. He theorises "living" kinds of matter and structure as opposed to "dead" structure in a similar sense to the symbol/ sign contrast. The more a building "lives" the more you come to a connection to your self through synergistic embodiment in your environment. Interestingly, since the Enlightenment architects have lost the ability to build living structure and dead structure abounds, which overlaps with Spengler quite well...

 

[TimeAsylums]

- I think Christianity is a dead vessel, I'm unsure if it will 'live' again in this civilization in any significant way.

seconded.


I do believe it's time for our second book? (1 week/+ has past?)

Nominations?

 

[Puffy]

seconded.


I do believe it's time for our second book? (1 week/+ has past?)

Nominations?

I think Tberg nominated Freud's Civilisation and its Discontents?

Personally, the book I'm reading next is Manuel de Landa's Thousand years of non-linear history which can be found here for free: http://en.bookfi.org/
It's the same length as the last book.

If you guys go with Freud I don't mind. I've personally read as much of him as I want to at University and will have to politely decline.

 

[TimeAsylums]

I think Tberg nominated Freud's Civilisation and its Discontents?

Personally, the book I'm reading next is Manuel de Landa's Thousand years of non-linear history which can be found here for free: http://en.bookfi.org/
It's the same length as the last book.

If you guys go with Freud I don't mind. I've personally read as much of him as I want to at University and will have to politely decline.

I know Tberg was looking forward to Freud as well but I've had enough of him (and most of psychology) right now too. "Thousand years of non-linear history"...I could go for that, if there aren't any competitors, finished Guns, Germs, n Steel not too long ago.

 

[Puffy]

I know Tberg was looking forward to Freud as well but I've had enough of him (and most of psychology) right now too. "Thousand years of non-linear history"...I could go for that, if there aren't any competitors, finished Guns, Germs, n Steel not too long ago.

Ok, I'm wrong, it's twice as long.

It's on my to-read list either way, don't mind hearing other options.

 

[Absurdity]

De Landa's book is bad ass. I read like a third of it a few months ago, before school overwhelmed me.

 

[TheScornedReflex]

I would like to nominate The Cat in the Hat.

Dr Seuss, ftw!!!

 

[Absurdity]

Personally, the book I'm reading next is Manuel de Landa's Thousand years of non-linear history which can be found here for free: http://en.bookfi.org/

I'm not seeing it.

 

[TimeAsylums]

I'm not seeing it.

http://en.bookfi.org/book/828028

Following in the wake of his groundbreaking War in the Age of Intelligent Machines, Manuel De Landa presents a radical synthesis of historical development over the last one thousand years. More than a simple expository history, A Thousand Years of Nonlinear History sketches the outlines of a renewed materialist philosophy of history in the tradition of Fernand Braudel, Gilles Deleuze, and Félix Guattari, while also engaging the critical new understanding of material processes derived from the sciences of dynamics. Working against prevailing attitudes that see history as an arena of texts, discourses, ideologies, and metaphors, De Landa traces the concrete movements and interplays of matter and energy through human populations in the last millennium.

De Landa attacks three domains that have given shape to human societies: economics, biology, and linguistics. In every case, what one sees is the self-directed processes of matter and energy interacting with the whim and will of human history itself to form a panoramic vision of the West free of rigid teleology and naive notions of progress, and even more important, free of any deterministic source of its urban, institutional, and technological forms. Rather, the source of all concrete forms in the West's history are shown to derive from internal morphogenetic capabilities that lie within the flow of matter-energy itself.

looks interesting

 

[Absurdity]

http://en.bookfi.org/book/828028

Muchas gracias.

 

[TBerg]

Oh, man. Nobody with whom to get deep into Freud! Oh, well. I read it by myself, anyway. Made me kind of convinced that no one will ever be truly happy ever, but it agreed with many things that I already knew. I just don't know about how sublimations are made up of merely two elements, the drives to death and life/love. He also expanded Nietzsche in his theory of conscience.

Now I am reading Jung's Symbols of Transformation.

I will read the de Landa book around the weekend.

 

[TimeAsylums]

Oh, man. Nobody with whom to get deep into Freud! Oh, well. I read it by myself, anyway. Made me kind of convinced that no one will ever be truly happy ever, but it agreed with many things that I already knew. I just don't know about how sublimations are made up of merely two elements, the drives to death and life/love. He also expanded Nietzsche in his theory of conscience.
.

I'd still be glad to discuss Freud with you.

And yes, both of them go into other philosophers/thinkers Nietzsche, Goethe, Faust, Kant, Socrates etc. I found it much easier to read their interpretations of them rather than the direct (still read the direct, just liked the interpretations), specifically Jung's proclivity to interpret them psychologically.

Anyway, back to Freud. the two elements are...well, simple. Biologically, death is relevant clearly. And our (un)consciousness can easily be seen to obtain pleasure (love/life), aka in current psychology the human is geared to seek pleasure and avoid pain.

Whenever you read either, or any, just interpret it in the way that you can best understand, and fit into your worldview...


It can be left up to the individual to decide whether he believes in free will or not, or whether it's even relevant, but that's other stuff.

 

[Steven Gerrard]

Now a single fiction book mentioned thusfar?

Do INTP's in general prefer non-fiction?

Thoughts?

 

[TimeAsylums]

Now a single fiction book mentioned thusfar?

I can't read fiction anymore

/do not mention it again.


...Just kidding. Partially.


The INTPs I know (Young-er) definitely loved fiction, so many boy INTPs enjoy Star Wars and The Hobbit books (AFAIK), as a kid I read a ton of Dean Koontz and Stephen King.

That being said I haven't read fiction in over a year I think, the last fiction I read was 11/22/63 - Stephen King

Edit: the book came out in '11, so I guess almost 3yrs w/o fiction

I had a burnout on fiction (and video games) and haven't looked back since.

 

[TBerg]

the two elements are...well, simple. Biologically, death is relevant clearly. And our (un)consciousness can easily be seen to obtain pleasure (love/life), aka in current psychology the human is geared to seek pleasure and avoid pain.

I wanted to argue with your reiteration of basic Freud, but evolution simply seems to coincide with these two basic needs of survival. How can your genes survive if they don't, at bottom, support those two needs first and foremost?

 

[TBerg]

I think many INTPs might take fiction too seriously and may find non-fiction to be reality-grounding.

 

[TimeAsylums]

I wanted to argue with your reiteration of basic Freud, but evolution simply seems to coincide with these two basic needs of survival. How can your genes survive if they don't, at bottom, support those two needs first and foremost?

er, rather than just "coincide," we (er, I?) Just interpret it from bottom-up.

 

[Absurdity]

Now a single fiction book mentioned thusfar?

Do INTP's in general prefer non-fiction?

Thoughts?

Not an INTP but I don't really have the patience for fiction if the prose isn't mesmerizing. Plot's cool but it's the language that keeps me interested.

 

[Steven Gerrard]

I can't read fiction anymore

/do not mention it again.


...Just kidding. Partially.


The INTPs I know (Young-er) definitely loved fiction, so many boy INTPs enjoy Star Wars and The Hobbit books (AFAIK), as a kid I read a ton of Dean Koontz and Stephen King.

That being said I haven't read fiction in over a year I think, the last fiction I read was 11/22/63 - Stephen King

Edit: the book came out in '11, so I guess almost 3yrs w/o fiction

I had a burnout on fiction (and video games) and haven't looked back since.

Yeah, just turned 19. Hard to get into new fiction. As a teen, actually even from the age of 7 fiction was my favorite thing.

Formative years are over... Scared my ability to absorb new and stimulating things is dying.

Maybe now I can use my imagination to get some work done.

 

[BigApplePi]

I think many INTPs might take fiction too seriously and may find non-fiction to be reality-grounding.

Good fiction can be taken symbolically and therefore more broadly. Its value is emotional truth over factual truth. Isn't non-fiction more specific? I like it for its context applications.

You mentioned Freud. Freud is an individual and a founder of psychoanalysis. Psychoanalysis has branched out further since his day. I'd say he is great for going to the unconscious. Dreams go right there and are symbolic or can be interpreted that way ... a favorite of Freud's.

 

[Puffy]

I read a lot of comics/ graphic fiction and watch a lot of films, otherwise non-fiction largely. I find it hard to appreciate prose in depth as I'm visually minded. I'm still happy to read novels, just occasionally and if it's something I'm eager to get into.

I want to read Patrick White next novel wise, via Polaris's recommendation. Will get into De Landa shortly then.

 

[Architect]

I read a lot of comics/ graphic fiction and watch a lot of films, otherwise non-fiction largely. I find it hard to appreciate prose in depth as I'm visually minded.

I also prefer film, and would join that if there was such a club.