XIII2 Analysis+Experiment Explanation

[XIII]

=

 

[Cegorach]

I still hate you.

 

[Melkor]

God. Your heads really up your own ass huh? Personality may be changable, being a largely superficial social representation, but psychology, is not.(Well, not by choice) No matter how much you alter outwardly, you remain yourself within. You are merely overglorifying acting good ser'. I pity you.

 

[XIII]

=

 

[Cegorach]

Wait, I thought this WAS a bullshit thread...

 

[Melkor]

My thoughts exactly Cow. Why polish a turd?

 

[preilemus]

huh. I think I understand your experiment more and more with each post about it you make.

once again, good job with XIII2. I'll go more in depth later about how I feel about things in specific.

P.S. I feel as though I should say that one of my main objectives was to try and help people avoid conflict with you. whether or not you want to consider me your "puppet" is up to you.

 

[Melkor]

Your over confidence is your weakness. I don't waste time on people who refuse to be wrong

 

[XIII]

-

 

[preilemus]

I actually wanted to re-read it later...

ty morgoth

 

[Cegorach]

Your post warranted our replies, we don't want useless scum on the forum who are so full of themselves that they ruin the atmosphere of a place we consider our home.

I could care less if we lose your experiments, you need to learn humility before we'll even consider giving you a thoughtful response.

I'm sorry, but if you want respect you need to earn it.

 

[XIII]

-

 

[Cegorach]

You would rather quit than modify your actions to accomodate humility?
That's rather ironic...

 

[Deleted member 1424]

Would you accept any change on his part Cow or would you still meet him with hostility? -sigh- Can't we just let it go now?

 

[Fukyo]

Whoa,flame war.

 

[Felan]

Hmm, XIII I think it is a mistake to remove a post because you don't like what people say about it or even you. If you are going to say something then commit to saying it. If in the course of dialog your amend your view then do so, without destroying what has been said.

 

[XIII]

Have you read the responses? You think I should commit to leaving something meaningful to me up in this kind of atmosphere? The views I expressed have not changed, but my view of this forum has.

'Understood' meant 'I understand your position'.

If moderators would prefer to delete this thread (it's worthless now), by all means do so. If not, that's fine as well.

 

[Felan]

Have you read the responses? You think I should commit to leaving something meaningful to me up in this kind of atmosphere?

Yeah I read the responses. Fair enough. Stick with the decision you are most comfortable with.

 

[Razare]

I don't get why the experiment upset everyone. I would have preferred it if you just posted your results here and didn't actually use your different personalities on the forum, but I see it as a tolerable situation, since it is not indefinite in nature.

Even if one wasn't aware of your experiment, it's not like your posts were inflammatory or completely without value.

What was more inflammatory, in my view, were the responses.

 

[XIII]

A major theme of my original post was that this happens 10x in real life. It just happens, no matter where I play it out and no matter how polite I am. I'm either insane or insincere or a troll or... it gets old, and I tend to view it in structural and impersonal terms. I see reactions as no more than reactions to whatever role I'm playing, for the most part. Given the personal nature of many of my posts to this forum, I have not been able to keep that protective barrier up. One of my motivations for posting here, particularly in personality, was that I anticipated a more objective and analytical response than I elicit elsewhere. I expected that a group of INTPs would react with fascination and express a hundred new and brilliant ideas and play along and see how far they could take it- I suppose that was a naive expectation

I expressed my disappointment in measured terms in the original post, which I suppose elicited the reaction of ''bullshit'' and ''scum''.

 

[Ogion]

Allknowingcow and Melkor:
The only people i see here who are harming forum atmosphere are you two.
In The Arena this tone is ok, it is expected there. But in the more serious subforums insulting someone with "useless scum" "bullshit thread" "turd" "heads up your ass" and "I still hate you" is NOT acceptable. It is far more deteriorating and ruining to the forums atmosphere than the Opening post (in which i at least did not see any personal insult or something like that). Why do you think you have to resort to these cheap tactics?
If you have an ontopic problem with the arguments or observations of someones post, then make an ontopic argument against it. Don't resort to ad hominem tactics.
If you don't want to "waste your time" on something the don't. Just ignore it then. Makes everybody happier.
A forum has any worth in that it brings communication and a place to exchange ideas, especially for us INTPs and the like who most probably have few to no people in their real lifes to exchange our ideas with. So the only ones destroying the function of this forum in this thread are you two.

Ogion

 

[severus]

Observing the ENFP and pondering the (non)existance of a true self, I have realized that I can in fact see myself in the ENFP.

I want others to be happy. Mild/gossipy/dramatic strife is amusing, but true strife pains me. I do not actively help them or vocalize my concern for them, is all.

When others are sad, I feel sad. When they become happy, I am happy for them.

I am sorry that some members did not respond well to your experiment, and I admit that I was rather adverse to it myself. Having seen the likeness, I am now neutral.

EDIT
@Ogion: Amen.

 

[snowqueen]

I don't get why the experiment upset everyone. I would have preferred it if you just posted your results here and didn't actually use your different personalities on the forum, but I see it as a tolerable situation, since it is not indefinite in nature.

Even if one wasn't aware of your experiment, it's not like your posts were inflammatory or completely without value.

What was more inflammatory, in my view, were the responses.

Just notice how XIII has managed to cause upset, discord and division - that was entirely deliberate. Just ask yourself why he didn't decide to use the personalities on a different forum, why he felt the need to post all over this one - especially on threads where people had been opening up their very personal thoughts - absolutely no ethics. He must be thrilled that he actually managed to get Ogion to tell off members who were being 'nasty'. Troll. Of the worst sort. I am so glad I put him on my ignore list.

 

[XIII]

-

 

[Ogion]

Snowqueen: I haven't read his other posts, as i didn't read much in the last time. But however his other posts are:
He didn't 'bring' me to tell off AllknowingCow and Melkor (Morgoth). I find it not acceptable to post such insults (except maybe for The Arena which's purpose it is) in a Forum. Period.
If there really is such a strong 'problem' with his posts, then one still can either talk with the moderators about it or argue against the 'bad posts'. To be going down to the level of personal insults is just not acceptable, imo.

Ogion

 

[snowqueen]

Snowqueen: I haven't read his other posts, as i didn't read much in the last time. But however his other posts are:
He didn't 'bring' me to tell off AllknowingCow and Melkor (Morgoth). I find it not acceptable to post such insults (except maybe for The Arena which's purpose it is) in a Forum. Period.
If there really is such a strong 'problem' with his posts, then one still can either talk with the moderators about it or argue against the 'bad posts'. To be going down to the level of personal insults is just not acceptable, imo.

Ogion

Ogion I am not questioning your decision in any way. You had to do what you did. Of course. My wording was unfortunate and I apologise. The question though is how AKC and Melkor were provoked into putting themselves into that position?

 

[XIII]

-

 

[Razare]

This is making me very upset. I hate these kinds of discussions, but I feel like it's the only way I can defend myself... and I don't even know what I've done wrong.

What you've done wrong is expressed your various personalities, which are fake in their nature, on serious topics. Some perceive this as ruining the seriousness of the forum because your responses are not your true, serious self. INTP's generally detest fakers they come across in the real world, and I think you've brought this faker label upon yourself by engaging in your activities.

It also might be argued that the posts by your various personalities constitute worthless text, since in their nature are just a form of intense role play, which is not something generally done on this forum. If someone makes a post, they want serious responses, not some fake personality giving them confused, or perhaps (depending on the personality) malevolent advice.

This all said, I see these slights as minor. It can quite easily be resolved by putting you on ignore and really isn't a big issue, especially when there's the understanding that a certain post is being made by one of your personalities. You even assisted in this understanding by making the text orange, which was a good idea. Yet it's best you leave because while I and probably many more do not find your actions that objectionable, some find them intensely so. I wager it's to do with our innate hatred of fakers in our real lives.

You should make a blog somewhere that catalogs your personality experiment when it's finished. If you do, please come back and give us the link because I at least would like to read more about the experience.

 

[XIII]

-

 

[preilemus]

fuck. this is exactly what i feared would happen.

i dont even know what to say. actually its obvious what i ought to say, but im not going to...

 

[Deleted member 1424]

XIII you don't deserve this. It was your posts and threads that hooked me into this forum to begin with. You are one of the most interesting posters here. The way this played out is fucked up.

@the forum: intPs should not be so inflexible and prejudiced.

@Glovehead: You should go ahead and say it.

 

[XIII]

-

 

[preilemus]

sigh... I told you so:

The best thing we can do in my opinion is to treat this as an entirely different persona, instead of the previous one with a mask on. This is beneficial because it avoids any potential conflict in the form of grave misunderstandings which may result in XIII's departure

i am actually laughing at how well i predicted it.


EDIT: well i guess i was wrong about one thing

 

[Felan]

The subject in general is a bit of powder keg. And there has been an aspect of hostility toward what XIII was doing by some and interest by others.

I'm not sure Melkor (a.k.a. Morgoth, if I understand correctly) needs provocation.

I thought AKC was just teasing at first.

I thought XIII put alot into this and it was important to him and unfortunately they touched a sensitive nerve and he reacted poorly.

Things went downhill from there.

I'm still new and maybe don't have the history of it all, but it does seem this has taken on bit too much of the extreme.

I don't really think this is anything that anyone should feel obligated to "leave" the forums over.

 

[FacetiousPersona]

I thought that you entirely assumed the persona which you selected for each phase to ensure the transaction process is a success. Did intense emotions encourage you to cease the experiment temporarily?

You should be less emotional towards the reactions of these members, I think, who represent a low percentage of the forum. There will be opposition to your ideals in any community which you visit with your ideas and opinions. You cannot prevent the fact that humans will inevitably contradict you through conflicting ideals and feelings.

Disagreements and misunderstandings will occur, but these need to be accepted and overcame for success with such extreme expressions. Is this whole act here genuine or an act? I am uncertain.

You sent me a PM prior to all of this with: "Subject: Now. Body: Watch how it is done", which indicates all of this is possibly calculated for an alternate experiment. Your demonstration of certain emotions in this thread certainly seems contrived (note the seem). However, it is possible that your emotions displayed are authentic and people are misunderstanding you.

These experiments of yours intrigue me and I enjoy observing the effects of them. You should continue them with an immense passion and ignore any unnecessary criticisms. Did you truly expect to progress far without opposition of this degree? It would be unrealistic to expect every individual to concur and follow you. Yes, there will be individuals that like the idea and contribute to it, but they will not necessarily agree with the beliefs exprsssed within it.

All of this hostility is only escalating, and it seems pointless when there is evidently far nicer content on the forum to be discussed. Can we calm down, perhaps, and advance down a positive avenue of intelligent, rational discussion?

 

[Ermine]

I don't get why everyone's making a big deal. XIII may be the first person (other than Face possibly) to come here that has portrayed different personalities in one location, but does playing different personalities automatically make someone a troll. I wouldn't think so unless they were acting inappropriately or being an offender in some other way.

I understand how this may have touched a sensitive nerve for a lot of people here. INTPs seem to value and expect authenticity, both in themselves, and others. I think this is a reasonable demand. However, where is the line drawn between inner change, experimenting, and being "fake"? People are acting like XIII broke an unwritten law of authenticity. I don't think this is an acceptable response for "open minded" and "flexible" people. XIII already announced that he is doing personality experiments on himself. With that knowledge, we can assume it's authentic for him to exhibit different personalities. Just so long as he isn't rude or offensive, it shouldn't be a problem. We can't assume anything about him until it does get offensive.

And XIII, I don't think you're doing anything wrong, and I'm as fascinated as ever. However, you really shouldn't have deleted your original post. If what you're doing isn't wrong, you shouldn't step down because you're afraid of the opinions of others. All this does is make you more open to attack, though I didn't think you'd have to use that mindset in the first place. If you think you're doing the right thing, go for it. If you're going to support this experiment, you'll have to be more assertive and cool headed under attack.

 

[XIII]

-

 

[FacetiousPersona]

Face:
I understand your comments, and generally agree. Just to clear things up:
-My pm was sent when I was XIII2 about XIII2, and was only made in the light of our previous conversations. I think you're reading it differently than I intended, but it was quite ambiguous so that's understandable.
-My posts in this thread have been entirely genuine. My personality naturally shifts and changes quite a lot as a result of my previous experimentation, but the feelings and thoughts I have expressed are as much mine as any can be. They are not ''assumed'' in any way.
-I decided to stop being XIII2 because I have exams and he wasn't exactly intellectual, and then... this happened.
-I agree with your points, but it just hurts. I think I put a lot of hope in this forum, shared some of my deepest thoughts, and was just very exposed. I receive far more hostility than this during my experiments out in the world, but it doesn't affect me like this (or even at all). The quoted passage in my last post may be of some explanatory value.

Is it possible that certain emotions are closer to the strongest elements of you, which constitute the 'true-self', thus being closer to authentic? For example, a consistent aspect of you apparently encourages you to continue with this experiment while assuming each persona.

You stopped this persona recently with a rational reason, but maybe this 'rational reason' which stopped you was from XIII, not XIII2? Were you conscious with your XIII mindset throughout the XII2 one and had control to an extent from the XIII mindset? I'm aware that you cannot instantly change, but I am wondering how long it takes for the changes to genuinely occur internally.

 

[XIII]

Fine.

PRINCIPLE:
XIII2 was an example of a splinter personality, born from the inflation of an imagined possibility into a manifested self. Consequently, he was initially somewhat rigid and artificial. He was a simple idea given complex form, and thus could not immediately resemble an entire, developed personality. As time progressed, XIII2 came to dominate my psyche and feel more real. Both idea and form grew. By day 2 I was extroverted, by day 3 the dynamic of my family relationships had transformed, by day 4 by internal world had been irrevocably altered and XIII2 felt like he had been with me for life.

My past was reimagined in XIII2's image, its meaning altered in accordance with the parameters of XIII2's world.

The union of conception and action. I am making the external world the playground of my intuition and imagination-- bridging the abyss which typically separates creative imagination from mundane reality. XIII2 was not based upon any Tarot card or predetermined archetype. He was a beautiful idea who I, because of the abilities I have developed, was able to give to life to. He is an example of the mechanism upon which my experiments rely: the reformulation of experience, meaning, and action in accordance with the imagined.

The INTX typically has two lives: the life of Gods and otherworlds and aeon-spanning possibilities in which he feels at home, and the life in which he is a social being with a tangible and inflexible form.

Do you understand yet?
I am making these two lives one, making each the subject of the other. I conceive a higher possibility and embody it. Instead of being an unsatisfactory external human who is loosely related to a beautiful imaginative internal world, I live as an avatar of the Gods and Demons who reside in that world. My external self is a canvas for my imagination. XIII2 was a passing conception. If another had thought of him, he would be gone in a minute; I thought of him and he became me and lived a life through me.

XIII2 IN FULL:XIII2 resulted from the interplay of several factors: a desire to experiment outside of the context of tarot, a desire to give this forum a tangible example of my experimentation, and a genuine need to feel and address other people's pain.

My thought became far less intellectual, I operated on 'feeling' alone, and I was actually very concerned with the wellbeing of others. If you are familiar with my pre-XIII2 self, who found looking at gore sites an informative activity, you will recognise that the contrast is stark.

Intpforum's reaction:Was not what I had hoped for. I expected a more detailed analysis of what I was doing and the factors involved, instead of the, frankly, unintelligent and uninformed response of many members. Even some who were aware of the details lacked the objectivity or insight necessary to step back and realise that I was showing, not 'trolling'. However, such is to be expected. Brilliance is not a personality type, although the type of brilliance I had hoped for is more likely to be found among INTXs. Some individuals made insightful and brilliant comment; I am grateful for that, it is rarer and more valuable than I can express. The collective reaction, though, was unsastisfactory. In particular, observe the ''How to be an happy INTP'' and ''Say something mean...'' threads and the posts of Snowqueen,'Nobody', and Morgoth.

But what relevance does this have to my explanation? It demonstrates how essentially messy my experiments are. People don't understand, relationships break down, and massive strength of will is required to sustain the adopted self. People hate, scream, accuse, and insult, even if they are rational and have had the experiment explicitly explained to them beforehand. Considering the responses on this forum, can you imagine what kind of reaction I elicit in the common world? This is no intellectual game. It is the total destruction and recreation of previous dynamics.

XIII2 was more consciously moderated and crafted than most of my experimented personalities, because he was simple and not based upon a fully formed and complex archetype in the way that my Tarot-based personalities are. However, I still felt what I said I felt. I still experienced as you would expect such a person to experience. I still felt genuinely hurt when somebody reacted badly, and genuinely ecstatic when my actions resulted in joy or 'happiness'. I will not be able to wipe XIII2 from my psyche, and the feeling for others, silliness, and naive extroversion will, henceforth, play a part in who I am. Can you imagine, given that, how having been 'The Devil' or 'The Hermit' or 'The Sun' for a week could affect a person?

Why I killed XIII2
I had planned to develop him for another week or two, but decreased quality of verbal and linear thought was disrupting my preparation for examinations (even when emulating, an administrator section of my meta-personality has veto). This also provides me with an opportunity to assess whether my time is well spent here, a consideration necessitated by the general nature of the reaction to XIII2. I will not play here if I have to, as some members suggested to XIII2, treat you with kid gloves: I value aeon-spanning and transpersonal intellect. I am currently experiencing from the point of XIII1, but am gradually moving to a more integrated and inclusive state- the state from which selves are born.


ESSENCE:
An example of the mechanism utilised in my experiments has been provided. Your understanding, if you have been following my threads, should now be deeper. I create the parameters, my will is stronger, and people bend to it. Why? Because most people have 1 life-narrative, and must alter the entire narrative to accommodate conflicting data. If the old ways of seeing XIII and interacting with XIII no longer work, and if XIII cannot be bent and contorted back into the shape he used to take, the individual's life-narrative will be bent and contorted out of shape to accommodate the new XIII. This is why I can do what I do without ending up in an insane asylum. I provide reasons to make the transition easier: XIII is becoming the devil, so XIII artificially engineers a relationship crisis with his girlfriend or former friend so that the people around him have a 'reason' to bend their life-narrative around the new XIII.


I will restate the essence of my experiment: the union of conception and action, the manifestation of imagined and individual selves in external social reality, and the bridging of the abyss between the divine inner and the mundane outer.




I willed it, thus it was.

Addendum: like I said in the quoted passage, XIII2 has had an irrevocable effect. My emotionality now, while sincere, probably has a lot to do with the subconscious influence that the aspects of my personality involved in XIII2 are still having.

 

[Felan]

I appreciate you reposting it.

 

[zephryi]

I am amazed at the reactions you have received, XIII. You'd think that in a forum full of a type of people who are supposed to be "open-minded," "rational," and all of these other adjectives that have been tossed about, that it'd be a safe place to play. That, even if the posts seem distasteful, it could be shrugged off. And yet it seems the reactions, for or against, are emotionally charged.

It's an issue close to everyone, I'd suppose; whether or not people can change consciously as suddenly as you have, and whether this new persona, new facet, perhaps, can be accepted. And then there's the sudden shake up as people's minds must readjust to a slightly new reality, and suddenly the small sanctuary they've found has been shaken up and isn't the stable rock they've been standing on and the introduction of a person who claims to be completely genuine but changes so quickly, thwarting expectations.

I don't think the calls of faker are justified; I don't know what is in your mind, but you've shared a lot, and to simply blow it all away without more thought is to be close minded. At the same time, even if you are being genuine, this is still, in essence, an experiment. That dynamic of experimenter/ experimentee can be damaging in a place that is like a home, where people wish to be treated as people and not as observers to test things on. Both sides have substantial weight; I don't think that either viewpoint is more "right;" I'm simply upset at the way this has been handled. If there is an issue, it should be discussed rationally rather than with personal attacks.

Anyways, that's not the point of this thread, so moving on.
--


As time progressed, XIII2 came to dominate my psyche and feel more real.

How exactly does this occur? You've given an overview, but I'm curious about the details, especially the changes in your inner world, as you say. I can't imagine changing my own; it seems too integral. But you've have lots of practice it seems, and I'd like to know what sort of changes you observe in thoughts more specifically when slipping into a another persona.

Also, how do you perceive XIII2? Sometimes you refer to him as you, a part of you, and other times as a completely different person, one fully formed as it were, but separate.

Thanks for reposting and sharing this with us.
--

 

[XIII]

First- Thank you. In accordance with your comments, my reply will focus on the questions in your post.

As time progressed, XIII2 came to dominate my psyche and feel more real.

How exactly does this occur? You've given an overview, but I'm curious about the details, especially the changes in your inner world, as you say. I can't imagine changing my own; it seems too integral. But you've have lots of practice it seems, and I'd like to know what sort of changes you observe in thoughts more specifically when slipping into a another persona.

First, bear in mind that the process is fundamentally unspeakable, and that words can only be used as clumsy approximations of a complex nonverbal reality. The process becomes more potent and complete, and thus increasingly inexpressible, with every emulation

My first experiment ever was ''I am attractive''. Aspects of my sexual self-image were negative before this experiment, and I was somewhat unhappy with the dynamic of my romantic relationships. I began by simply repeating ''I am attractive'' again and again, drowning out all contradictory thought. This became the irrational imperative, and my mind set about finding evidence to support it. It became a belief; my mind became its advocate. Over the course of a single evening, my behavior started to change subtly. I looked in the mirror and was surprised by how handsome I was and I talked to people and was surprised by how witty I was. I went out clubbing every night for the next four nights. I ended up fucking the most attractive girls I met in the club (I was young and carefree...), making friends with the local gangsters, and having all of my drinks bought for me. People began to compliment my appearance (one man actually called my 'beautiful' and then walked off), which had never happened before. I had not consciously altered how I dressed or presented myself. Most importantly, I believed that I was attractive. Suddenly, I had been an attractive person all of my life. I simply hadn't known it because of how people had treated me up until then. You're understanding me so far?

That was a crude and undeveloped form of the process, but it was my gateway to otherworlds. If everything I had thought about myself could be overturned so completely with so little effort, what could sustained experimentation do? The essential formula was, at that point: create irrational imperative, believe in irrational imperative, let your mind/emotions find evidence for validity of, and identify with, irrational imperative.

That was when I was still thinking in words, so I can explain it. It has become automatic now-- it's like dancing, in that thinking about it too much ruins it. It is not an exercise in thought. I can focus upon an image and become an embodiment the image in seconds. If somebody speaks to me while I am doing this, my reaction will be, so to speak, that image's reaction. I utilise this in my Tarot experiments by burning the image into my mind, surrounding myself with it, and allowing it to permeate everything that I am.

XIII2 actually resulted from the image that was his avatar catching my eye. The conditions necessary for such a shift were there, but it was not a conscious decision. My ''Mystically Transformed Post'' was made in a transition state. There was more of an awareness that I was becoming somebody else than a decision.

Also, how do you perceive XIII2? Sometimes you refer to him as you, a part of you, and other times as a completely different person, one fully formed as it were, but separate.

I love him. There are different levels:
XIII2 is drawn from less-expressed aspects of who I am already

XIII2's history is a reformulation of my history. We are two interpretations of the same events. Alternate narratives, if you will.

The aspects which were essential to XIII2's function have been strengthened by the experience of being him, thus transforming the relationship of my other selves with those aspects. While there is a fully formed XIII2 who is distinct from me, the resources from which he was created have become more accessible and more influential.

Also, bear in mind that I am fluid in a way which cannot readily be explained. My identity shifts as another's moods shift. Before I developed an administrator faculty, I was in freefall. I was a different person every hour, unable to function coherently.

I resolved this by transcending identification with any 'identity' which could be expressed in the realm of 'personality' (bear in mind that my use of the word 'personality' is context-dependent and probably very different from that of an MBTI advocate). I identified with a deeper structure, somehow beyond transitory personality. It is the coordinator- the artist that creates and destroys in an effort to deify itself. Currently, I am experiencing from the point of an avatar of that being in the realm of personality. I am identified with a specific, but unusually fluid and flexible, form expressed in the medium of personality. When I go into freefall or am unable to find such a self, the concept of 'I' expands so as to become stable. Freefall is the absence of limitation or traditional personality which allows me acess to the deeper structure of the self.

 

[severus]

Most illuminating.

Thank you.

 

[echoplex]

Technically speaking, whenever someone expresses themselves differently than "normal" because of mood they are essentially doing the same thing XIII did. Sometimes I'm in a funny mood and will respond to a topic in only a semi-serious way, allowing a higher degree of silliness to show. Is that really all that different?

Sure, I don't call it an "experiment" and I don't assume a different MBTI type, but I might as well because every time that we are compelled in our lives to try a different approach, we are doing a similar thing. And even though I am an INTP, there are times I feel like an INFP, or even an ESFP (rare), or an INTJ. It seems to me that XIII was just trying to "feel" different. Perhaps as a way of understanding other personalities. After all, as INTPs I think we often aren't able to understand others, which can become frustrating. So why not shift one's perspective for a while? Why not let go of your concept of "identity" and really explore your possibilities? Who does this hurt?

Granted, I probably feel this way due to my views that the concept of identity is not as rock-solid as we often like to think. What "we" are is only a fraction of all that encompasses us. However, I can see how new users could've been confused and felt insulted. There are valid points in that direction too.

and @XIII - I think you probably should have anticipated a negative reaction from some. It's obviously something that people here aren't used to and the INTPs natural tendency to scrutinize and find faults often overcomes its open-minded nature. You shouldn't feel discouraged by others if this is something you truly think is worthwhile for you. Good luck.

Eh, either way, I enjoyed it. Although I knew what was going on. I can see how people who didn't could be upset.

 

[zephryi]

So your tool is (was) like an intensified affirmation process, I take it? Did you do various experiments before the tarot experiment, or does most of your experience with "switching personalities" come from it?

And personally, I see your mind as having a sort of tiered construction of personas. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the framework I'm using to understand better. At the top seems to be this administrative person, one that drives the experiment and keeps it going. I'd say slightly obscured, kept away from influence from other personas. Then below that, visible in rotating order, is the personas themselves, the ones constructed from the tarot, XIII2 in his complete form, etc. The "top" would refer to the head, intellectual space, while below that would be the torso, the heart and body, what is presented to the world, rather than importance or centrality. The person into which all the traits, such as the strengthened "resources" from XIII2, are being absorbed into, the "self" seems either within the body of this structure, or something completely different. Or perhaps it is the underlying structure you're speaking of? Or the flesh on the underlying structure?

...eh, sorry for the clumsiness; I'm not quite sure if I understand or can understand, at this point, exactly what you're describing here.

 

[XIII]

It is complex. There are stronger parts and weaker parts and relationships too complex to put into words. There are more constant parts and less constant parts, and all of their relationships to each other are changed with every emulation. There are overriding selves which kick in during emergency and others which kick in to some extent but are still effected by my current persona in response to extreme stimuli. There is a functional administrator and a far deeper structure experienced more rarely. It is complex.

The process of becoming definitely is not a form of affirmation. I don't use that at all any more, but during my first experiment it was more akin to flooding my conscious mind with thoughts of the new identity than to affirmation. Any resemblance is superficial. I did quite extensive experimentation before committing to emulating every card of the Tarot Major Arcana.

I like your metaphor. I don't understand it (by it, I mean that which the metaphor refers to, not the metaphor itself) myself enough to judge if it is accurate, but I think that it is accurate to some degree and incomplete to some degree. I become a different person during each emulation week. All of my previous metaphors seem to fall apart each time I change so completely.

Echoplex: I am a human, and do happen to use human faculties in my experiments. You could view them as an amplification and fine-tuning of something that happens naturally in everybody. Having experienced both, before and after my experimentation began, I assure you that they are very, very different. It is beyond simple feeling or individual variation, even though I often use those to initiate an identity change. Please bear in mind that I am doing my best to explain this in terms that are relevant to people who have not experienced it, and that my explanations are therefore likely to bear more resemblance to normal experiences than my actual experiences do. Having said that, we're all human.

 

[zephryi]

My language (and understanding of this topic) is too simple it seems; it's hard to grasp the sort of complexity and fluid nature you're describing. Anyways, thanks for answering my questions; this is something I'm going to have to ponder for awhile.

 

[XIII]

It's not hard to grasp fluidity; it's impossible . That's the whole point.

 

[zephryi]

*headdesk* I had that coming. XD

 

[echoplex]

Echoplex: I am a human, and do happen to use human faculties in my experiments. You could view them as an amplification and fine-tuning of something that happens naturally in everybody. Having experienced both, before and after my experimentation began, I assure you that they are very, very different. It is beyond simple feeling or individual variation, even though that is the process that I often use to initiate and identity change. Please bear in mind that I am doing my best to explain this in terms that are relevant to people who have not experienced it, and that my explanations are therefore likely to bear more resemblance to normal experiences than my actual experiences do. Having said that, we're all human.

Obviously no one here can know what you're experiencing, which is part of why I think some of the reaction is unfair. I think though that we've all at least toyed with the idea of "becoming" someone else. Many of us abandon those ideas after childhood, and begin to form the identity us and others will know us by for the rest of our lives. However, I think we lie to ourselves when we see our ideas of separate identities as truly separate. They are a part of us all along, I think, and what "we" are can never truly be set in stone.

And I don't mean to say that what you're experiencing is the same as just a feeling, but I think both have a tendency to cause some to label that person "insincere" or "troll." And I think others should grant you the same respect they would someone with erratic moods or someone who plays devil's advocate alot, which can both be annoying at times but are no reason to disrespect that person or label them negatively.