XIII2 Analysis+Experiment Explanation

[Toad]

O M G...

When the did all this start and WHY WAS I NOT INVITED?!?

XIII - Please post your thing up again so I can read it!

Everybody else - The next time you guys have this kind of thread PLEASE message me so I can read it. I love these kind of threads!

Glovehand - You are soooo an ass kisser haha. I wanted to punch you when I read the first couple of posts you put up on this thread haha.

 

[XIII]

-

 

[Sapphire Harp]

Something I think should be noted on the controversy:

XIII, you had a similar explosion on "The Only Truth I've Told" thread to a comment I would call neutral or silly. While Morgoth's post is a direct insult, it didn't have to be responded to with a counter-insult. You have had a mostly positive reception before - you could have waited for it.

I also see a history of sharply rejecting, if not contemptuously rejecting contrary opinions on your experiment. It gives the impression there is a minimum level of positivity you require to accept a post, the bar being unusually high.

Given the above, I can't help but think of the emotional volatility that personality play creates. It's harsh to say, but I think it is quite possible you're losing control.

For those who don't find your experiment believable, it just comes across as pretense. A game. For Snowqueen, the game crossed the line when you took it into the most emotionally serious thread in the forum. It landed you a sharp judgment, but one I find understandable. You have a lot of experience with hostile reactions, right? In light of your experience, that action seems careless to me.
​

 

[Toad]

It's already up, a couple of pages back. I like Glovehead, for the record. There's something quirky and insightful about him.

http://www.intpforum.com/showthread.php?p=74669#post74669

Of course you like Glove, he kisses your ass all the time. No offense to you, I would like a guy that gives me sweet delicious kisses on my ass all day too.

 

[Oblivious]

I have been physically disgusted at many of the posts made on this thread, none of them made by XIII. I do not see what the whole hoo hah over portraying multiple personalities is about.

As if any of us are that perfect. All of us here have faced persecution at one point or another in our lives; I find it galling to have seen with my eyes that there are still people here that would visit that sort of hogwash upon another one of our own.

We should grab pitchforks and torches and burn writers with more than one character in their stories at the stake. They are entertaining multiple viewpoints and ideas at the same time as well. Some of them wildly opposing. When you compare them to XIII, there is hardly any difference. XIII has stated before that this is an experiment he has conscious control over, can we not just take what he says as a sort of interactive fiction?

Must we take ourselves this seriously?

Whatever happened to inclusiveness?

Whatever happened to tolerance?

Are we not done with witch hunting?

 

[XIII]

-

 

[Oblivious]

Innocent? Probably. Naive? Most likely. Inarticulate? Yes. Offensive? No.

 

[NoID10ts]

This is all just part of this personality experiment. You are all little rats running through XIII's maze looking for cheese.

But I don't think there is any cheese.

Run, rats, run!

 

[XIII]

-

 

[XIII]

A portrait of my experiment:

Blake justifies humanity. All of its ugliness is a footnote to his beauty.

 

[zephryi]

Just a thought, but since this thread is obviously derailed, is there anyway it could be split so that this thread can be used to discuss the actual experiment, since that is the purpose of the thread, and the experiment has already been played out besides, while another thread can be created where rational discussion on the issue can take place? This thread is attracting a lot of people who feel very strongly about this idea, and it's counter productive to have every third post a violent rejection or protection of one party or the other.

Or, even, take the discussion over into pms or personal chats, if this is a more personal issue to certain people.

Perhaps this should be in the suggestion section, but ah well. ^^;;

 

[XIII]

I have deleted everything of a personal nature, not because I take any of it back, but because I am ashamed to have been a part of such petty drama, even if my part was that of an accused witch. I still believe that my reactions were proportionate and in response to unreasonable, nasty, and mob-like behavior, but my stake in this forum is far less than my stake in my own integrity. My integrity requires that I do not participate in any interaction as a defendant against an unstated crime. In order to rectify my denial of the inherent value of my own action independent of justification, I will become the judge:

The structural and descriptive posts remain, as they are what I originally intended to discuss. You can contact my via pm if you have any questions or comments, although I will not answer posts on the forum; I am awaiting a response from staff with regards to a specific matter, and will respond privately until this matter has been resolved.

I have been wounded and I feel that I must cut back:
this forum is no better than common society, no less tribal or more creative than is normal, and only another red herring along the path of the true individual. It is where people who could be great come to drag themselves back down towards mediocrity, all the while congratulating each other on the brilliance that they could have embodied if only they possessed a will. It is a graveyard for beauty, where potentially limitless souls consensually deny themselves with the sterile category of ''INTP''. I have laid my soul bare and been hurt for it more than I had imagined possible, and thus will wear a thicker armor than I ever have before: contempt. It is with contempt that I leave you, my disgust for your ugliness only strengthened by the wasted beauty which contrasts it. There are Gods on this forum, and I despise the collective for clothing them in the ugly rags of common humanity and teaching them that their Godhood is no more than a ''personality type''.

The meaning of XIII:
He came to know worlds beyond this one, and became a gateway between there and here. Yet his old selves were shredded by the currents of life running through him and out of him, and were forced to face the terror of an early death. And then true life. He became the point of convergence, willfully manipulating and directing the interaction of the forces of otherworlds and their expression in the common world. He taught Gods to dance and die at his command.

 

[Oblivious]

You'll get over it.

 

[didyouknow]

I understand where you are coming from XIII (or at least, I hope I do). I have been similarly shocked and disappointed by some of the things said on this forum. But, just like normal society, we must tolerate the bad in order to find the good. Withdrawing from the forum may seem like a good idea now, but you may miss out on a vital piece of insight.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that I find your experiment fascinating. It is of course, overcoming consensual reality and therefore you can expect some disregard from more inflexible people. I personally believe that the self is transient capable of immense change. I was once offended when someone said "I can't help it. It's in my nature". If we cannot improve and change who we are, then what goal is there in life?

 

[FacetiousPersona]

I believe in the dead being resurrected through the advancements of those finally overcoming it. Dependency is a flaw, perhaps, but it benefits the laziness.

 

[meshram.alok]

I believe there is no specific reason for all this "negative interaction" to be taken seriously as affecting anyone or anything. Looking at it from one point of view, it is just another example of how there are different reactions to the same thing from the same type of people.

Even though personality has a role to play in life, there are values. And when someone's values get hurt, their reaction may be very irrational. Sometimes even the person who reacts in such a way might later repent or feel sorry for their own reaction. Nothing too strange about this.

What I think is the hurt point here is one of the major fears of INTPs - Fear of losing control, something which plagues me a lot. Most of the people here value the control they have over themselves. They have defined ways of reacting to stimulus or situations, or a definite way to find out how to react. But when this does not happen, there is a sense of self doubt, and this leads to, for me, an exaggerated sense of loss of control. Everything I do seems to be done in a wrong way, to the point that I might start thinking I am "Evil" and upon seeing knives or sharp objects imagine mysef performing criminal actions.

It's a horrible state, and difficult to get out of without support of loved ones or people who care for you. Intuitively, I think your experiments with your own personality could lead to this state. This is why I said to you once to preserve your core, the one that got interested in these experiments and led you to perform them. You've written it yourself:

"even when emulating, an administrator section of my meta-personality has veto"

This administrator must be given the highest preference at all times, and must be kept healthy. Even when you react to a situation automatically in a specific way consistent to your current personality emulation, you must have that self-observing and administrating mode active that knew that it is not the original you that reacted to it, but your emulation.

If you do not, I think you'll lose your identity, or your sense of belonging to yourself. I think most of the strong reactions you're getting here are because there is either a suspicion that you've already reached this stage or will do so soon.

 

[meshram.alok]

Having elaborated on my prime concern for this experiment, here are some of my observations:

1) Tarots remind me of states I've gone through, or go through. I can especially relate to the Magician, the Fool, the Devil and the Hermit. Sometimes I go through a particular stage automatically, and sometimes on purpose (I especially do the Hermit quite often).

Here's something from Wikipedia which makes sense to me:

"Carl Jung was the first psychologist to attach importance to tarot symbolism. He may have regarded the tarot cards as representing archetypes: fundamental types of persons or situations embedded in the subconscious of all human beings. The theory of archetypes gives rise to several psychological uses. Since the cards represent these different archetypes within each individual, ideas of the subject's self-perception can be gained by asking them to select a card that they 'identify with'. "

Isn't MBTI somewhere in connection to this, and Astrology?

I guess being "typed" or finding out that what you experience in life has an external representation already is satisfying in some way or the other. Something related to Love, wherein the other person knows you well enough to understand how you are experiencing something, and how you might be reacting to it.

What form is given to it (pictorial cards, Rational observations or the position of planets) is different and none of my concern.

2) Your experimenting with yourself is interesting in that you are most probably wanting to experience everything life has to offer, and that will make your understanding of the human condition better, and might lead to extreme stages of understanding of the dynamics of society and the world, (As in how different type of people deal with each other and form groups with each other, leading to group dynamics/fads/religions or country formation and wars).

If successful, you could give very accurate descriptions of the states other people are in, and could use them, maybe for consultancy (you could very easily perceive, for example, what people in a firm are the ones needed to be given other responsibilities, who could be better put in a managing position, and who are the barriers to productivity).

3) A good record of your own states might be useful for the future. I think you must be doing this already.

 

[Melkor]

This ended much more wonderfully than I thought! You're such a drama queen dearie. I meant very little of what I said, granted, I still think your experiment is folly, but I'd be fascinated by the psychological impact it had on your good self. Ha. I had fun, what else matters?

 

[snowqueen]

Following an exchange with LOR she has suggested I post an explanation for my response to XIII and to do it on this thread. I don’t feel I particularly have to justify myself but I do actually care enough about this forum to want to do it – surprisingly enough I do have other things I could be doing! Just a warning – this does fall into the category of ‘long post’!

XIII’s experiment was introduced on to the forum by someone who was not an existing forum member – this is only significant in that we have no reference point for the ‘real’ XIII as we do for all the other members who play about with the way they present themselves. The explanation was posted on to the Handmade thread but not everyone checks that thread so many members were unaware they had become part of an experiment. I consider this unethical. XIII’s experiment is apparently just on himself (I accept XIII may think this is the case) – however that cannot be the case when he is using the forum to practice the persona because every post has a consequent response –by a genuine member who is by and large representing themselves or a playful version whom most people have learned to recognise. I, for example, spotted Melkor, Face, Cow, Cog and Noddy as having different faces – but in their cases it is also possible to find examples of them behaving in a kind and considerate manner when appropriate elsewhere on the forum. This is not the case with XIII who either declaims his plan, his superiority or his persona, but not, to my knowledge, a genuine interest in anyone else on this forum.

At first I thought it was probably harmless though felt alarmed when I realised that the genuine concern and engagement I had offered to an apparently heartfelt plea (on the ‘only truth I’ve told’) thread was actually done to a ‘persona’ who abruptly disappeared and was replaced by XIII2 the ‘saccharine’ persona. I felt taken in and that my emotions had been manipulated. Nonetheless I took this in my stride and tried to be understanding.

Then I saw this:
http://www.intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=2031

8th-February-2009, 02:46 PM
You compare me to a ''charlatan''? Well fuck you to. If you're going to hurl insults with 0 measured argument or appeal to reason, then don't expect a polite reply. How can I justify my actions against emotive labels such as that? I can't, rationally. So fuck you, you semi-autistic literalist.

(XIII, by the way, has deleted most of his posts so it is hard to present a full picture of what he’s been doing.) I found that response disturbing.

XIII2 seemed harmless enough – appearing all over the forum spreading the desire to love and help us – until he inserted his persona into a thread which contained deeply serious material. Now, keep in mind that XIII has told us this is an experiment – by definition it is not real life – I felt that he should have had enough sensitivity to know this was not an appropriate place to practice his persona. Now I am prepared to believe that XIII is a rather young and foolish person who does not yet understand how serious the difficulties that some people face in life can be and did not realise what he was doing. Perhaps an apology is warranted?

Later on in the ‘be mean to the person above you thread’ Cog invited someone to be mean to both him and XIII and, perhaps foolishly, I did – insulting Cog based on his avatar of a smoking bug and then once the schoolyard image was in my mind, I insulted XIII’s persona (bear in mind, please, that XIII had made it clear this was an experiment) in the manner of the schoolyard, imagining what I would say to that persona if I were at school. XIII then brilliantly flipped his ‘saccharine’ character into the correct mode of ‘victim’ using emotional blackmail to deliberately misunderstand the joke, which I actually applauded because it was brilliant. But then he kept on and on vilifying me as if it were real and I felt this was no longer something I wanted to participate on so I decided to ‘ignore’ him (apparently I should not have made this public ?)

Then I discovered that he had taken the persona who was ‘oh so hurt’ to another thread of his and was quoting me out of context and continuing to make out that we were ganging up on him etc. at that point I felt this was going too far so I thought this person doesn’t care what he’s doing here, what kind of chaos he causes and in my mind that is a troll – now again, I accept that I had no right to call him that and I should have taken my concerns to a moderator at that point, so for that I am sorry.
I then left the forum feeling rather pissed off and went off to Personality Cafe and the ‘news’ sticky is the one about manipulation and it just seemed so extraordinarily serendipitous that I decided to post it to try to show my pov – I now realise that was taken completely differently than I had intended and I regret that deeply.

But – I would like to explain why I posted the manipulation list (original is on www.personalitycafe.com)
XIII2 used most of the tactics on this list – playing victim, vilifying the person he upset, using emotional blackmail etc. and in particular by ratcheting up the emotional volume very quickly – this is what all us INTPs have been responding to one way or the other! This is exactly how people manipulate us in real life. And it is exactly how many of the distressed INTPs here on the list and the ones I met through my work have been made to feel emotionally inadequate, alienated, oppressed, worthless, self-doubting, self-hating and worse. We’ve all heard it, I’m sure, to a greater or lesser extent: ‘Why are you so cold?’, ‘Can’t you see how much you’re hurting me?’, ‘Why can’t you lighten up?’, ‘You obviously don’t care’, ‘why the long face?’ – I have read enough of this on this forum to know this is a common experience. I have worked with many INTs who have reached the stage that the only way they can prove that they really do feel is by self-harm – why do you think people are driven to that? Learn to spot the signs of the manipulator and they will have less power over you.

Ok – notice a couple of things – XIII protested that he was going to leave over and over again, but didn’t. Instead he made all of us responsible for his emotional well-being – if it were so hard for him why hasn’t he left? He is online as I write this at 22.08 GMT – check his timestamp. Making us responsible for his emotions is what people in real life do to us all the time and because we INTPs don’t understand this game we get sucked in and feel bad. XIII is responsible for his own emotions. We all are.

And I don't think his posting it on handmade and being 'upfront' then gives him license to practise his personality to the extent that it causes distress and division. Let's just do a thought experiment. I post on 'handmade' that I want to find out what it feels like to be a racist and then go all over the forum making racist comments, would that make it ok? Some people are offended but others say ‘it;s just an experiment’ and hey presto you have division and conflict in the forum! Have you considered what other personalities he might produce? Are you really happy for one person to be using the forum in this way? My view is that not everyone gave consent to be part of his experiment and many members are being drawn into this experiment on a personal level. At least on Big Brother, the Prison Experiment and those stupid beach challenge reality shows the participants have signed away their rights. Personally I didn’t sign up to this forum to be part of anyone’s experiment.

And let me just point out what XIII really thinks of our forum:

It is a graveyard for beauty, where potentially limitless souls consensually deny themselves with the sterile category of ''INTP''. I have laid my soul bare and been hurt for it more than I had imagined possible, and thus will wear a thicker armor than I ever have before: contempt.

For some of us it has been a long hard journey to the INTP forum. Such contempt is hardly comforting or kind. Frankly I can find enough of that in the real world, I don’t need it here.

 

[preilemus]

snowqueen: i feel its necessary to point out that the most thorough summary of his experiment is entitled "Personality Destruction" and is in the INTP section. this thread was much more prevalent as opposed to what he wrote in handmade; something I didnt even know existed until friday.

for everyone who knew what was going on, i think they may have felt far less "used" than those who came late, and didnt understand. perhaps the greatest problem with XIII's demonstration is that this isnt a closed environment, so in a sense this conflict was inevitable. i doubt he weighed in this factor when he decided to proceed with XIII2. can we blame him for not anticipating it though? I would disagree, as a view of every angle is something we all lack, so it would just be criticism of human nature.

for some strange reason, i feel it necessary to apologise for the emotional turmoil that not just you, but all who did, experienced because of little more than imperfect foresight.

 

[merzbau]

i saw the first couple of posts he made as xiii2 and thought it was cool seeing the praxis, rather than the theory. however, as interesting as it is, i harbour doubts that this switching your personality/opinions/reasoning on a whim would be possible in an environment where you have to rely on yourself, be independent, stick to your word, be honest with people, work for a living.. that sort of thing.

also, for those of us who are old enough to remember a world without internets, this is a timely reminder that forums will never replace real-world conversations. these places are dominated by little games and power struggles and soapboxers and anonymous jesters who still live in their parents' basements. people will seldom take you seriously, as they would if they met you face to face.

regardless, the inner world is endless, expansive, vibrant and unique.. that's why you should never pollute it by letting the mundane, limited, grey, outside world in. if there's one thing experience has taught me - you want to stay sane, keep them seperate. and don't lose your sense of humour.

 

[snowqueen]

snowqueen: i feel its necessary to point out that the most thorough summary of his experiment is entitled "Personality Destruction" and is in the INTP section. this thread was much more prevalent as opposed to what he wrote in handmade; something I didnt even know existed until friday.

Yeah, I know, but the handmade one was the original introduction to the first XIII who was also a persona. The 'Personality Destruction' thread was when XIII2 appeared. And *I* responded to the persona, presented as it was as an experiment. It was XIII who escalated things - I think because XIII is in the UK, we were the ones who experienced it most that evening when most of the rest of the forum were in bed. He followed me, Felan and The Barran over the forum, pestering us with all the 'let me make you happy' posts. We did comment on how that made us feel but not meanly. After the 'insult' thread he started posting over and over about me - all deleted now I believe - which made it seem like I was persecuting him - this was one of the tactics on the list of manipulation tactics! If you check my posts, I made my point and then stopped. btw, while he was in 'happy' mode he was also employing tactics on the list.
,
Anyway - I think that's enough from me on this topic - I am fine with things - I have apologised, I have explained myself and those who are interested in INTP issues may find something helpful there, and I bear no one ill will.

i doubt he weighed in this factor when he decided to proceed with XIII2. can we blame him for not anticipating it though? I would disagree, as a view of every angle is something we all lack, so it would just be criticism of human nature.

for some strange reason, i feel it necessary to apologise for the emotional turmoil that not just you, but all who did, experienced because of little more than imperfect foresight.

You might well be right - perhaps in time, if he is a genuine person rather than a college project, XIII will mature enough to be able to apologise for the chaos and division he caused.