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Infinite Regress

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stop being a waste

I agree
Though some here are still at school, so understandable that your post wouldn't inspire action.

I've said it before in a post somewhere, that I find everyone here of amazing intelligence and should go that extra mile.
I often find myself regretting that in the past I didn't work harder, enjoy life more etc. And as quick as that, time passes.

We can rest when we are dead...lol...imho

edit: Though I will add, easier said than done
 

echoplex

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If someone has determined that they want their life to be meaningful and for them to have great impact on the world, then yeah, bluesquid's advice is spot-on.

Of course, someone has to first decide they care enough to well, care. And being told they MUST care and DO SOMETHING is understandably a bit annoying.
 

Wish

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Don't think for a second that you have a mission or duty to anyone other than yourself.
 

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Don't think for a second that you have a mission or duty to anyone other than yourself.
I'll buy it.

But I also think this:

Some Of You Here Are Not Fulfilling Your Mission Or Duty To Yourself.
 

Wish

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I'll buy it.

But I also think this:

Some Of You Here Are Not Fulfilling Your Mission Or Duty To Yourself.

But how can you know what one's own duty to himself is, or better yet if there even is one. One's own purpose is something that is completely subjective and variable. To claim that it is one thing that someone other than that person knows better than that person is ridiculous.
 

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I'm telepathic.

(and even if I'm not, I know what INTPs are like because I am one and I've read James Paul's (Paul James' ?) INTP profile. I've met other INTPs, and I see similar drives to accomplish something. I agree that people might not be at the point in their life where they want to accomplish something, but I think that there's the seed planted even when INTPs are young.)

(I think that Dave's story totally counts as accomplishment. Raising a family and working a long job. Congrats man. I fear the day I raise my future children.)
 

cheese

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Oh god RT, thanks. That basically says everything I was trying (and trying not to) say. Now I've got slightly better direction:

Yeah, maybe no one can impose their value systems on you. But I've noticed a lot of us don't even follow our own. We have goals, desires, dreams, whatever and whenever we fail we pat ourselves on the back and pretend we 'chose' to. Nope. We defaulted to failure. This pertains to many areas in life, I think. We default to positions, choices, states of being because we can't get off our asses to explore the available options and make an informed decision.

Axioms:
Inconsistency is bad. (Pretty much everyone here believes this, though a truly hypocritical person would be able to both believe it and not apply it without seeing any problem.)
Self-deception is bad. (Same.)

I don't know if I'd say the OP was asking us to follow his lead. More that we're a bit fuzzy-headed in the way we approach life - getting priorities mixed up, allowing ourselves to get distracted (and this is an issue that a lot of us want changed, and has been discussed several times).

And yeah, we all fall. God knows I'm a massive failure myself. But denying it to yourself - that you've failed according to the standards you've set yourself, and the fundamental truths that you believe (or at least behave as if you do - and if you don't, you should align one with the other) - won't really get you anywhere. Additionally, criticising flaws in another in order to discount/distract from your own flaws is also not very productive. The emotional angle in this case serves only to degrade both parties. Analysis and evaluation of the accusation, as a subject separate from the accuser, is more likely to yield results you want. "Is there any way possible this is true?" and so on.

Having said that: we'll only accept anything when we're ready to.


This whole post has been written with all the major, ostensible assumptions of the board's members as its groundwork. (I think; I hope)

*edit
Oops. I'm also assuming choice is possible, for the purposes of this thread. This is something I do believe, though I don't think it dependent on an element of randomness. The freedom of the will increases with the knowledge of available choices, I think.
 

Wish

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:mythcreature:

Underneath the bellied skies
Where dust and rain find space to fall
To fall and lie and change again
Without a care or mind at all
For art and life and things above
In that there look just there
No right left up down past or future
We have but ourselves to fear.

:oldman:

Figshnust stron imhaurentlick onet pryspakio
 

cheese

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That looks like furry porn. :eek:

*edit
The PG13 edition.
 

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:mythcreature:

Underneath the bellied skies
Where dust and rain find space to fall
To fall and lie and change again
Without a care or mind at all
For art and life and things above
In that there look just there
No right left up down past or future
We have but ourselves to fear.

:oldman:

Figshnust stron imhaurentlick onet pryspakio

I reveal my cluster of transgenic tomatoes
Hid here in my overcoat.
The universal sign of discommendation
and of failed persuasive ability.
Although I have soiled myself with their smelly and wet-grimy beings
I want to share my burden.
HOY, WishingWell, receive my blessing!
And please stand still,

WW & I worked it out on IRC. (Although not the poetry, that was all impromptu!)

WW's post was accusing bluesquid of having a pygmalian project on the rest of the INTPs here.
[Bluesquid] Don't think for a second that you have a mission or duty to anyone other than yourself.
But I interpreted it as:

[Fellow INTPs, be reassured!] Don't think for a second that you have a mission or duty to anyone other than yourself.
As a kind of "we can all be selfish and have our own values of what accomplishment is.

Which is what I was responding too. I think that people DO have their own mission & duty to themselves. And because we're INTP... I can feel it in my bones that we want to accomplish things. It's part of the type. So I think that some people are failing their own duty & mission. I won't name names, because I'm still working on my telepathy-muscle.

*high-fives cheese*
 

cheese

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I really like this song:

YouTube- A Reminder - Radiohead

If I get old, I will not give in
But if I do, remind me of this
Remind me that
Once I was free
Once I was cool
Once I was me

And if I sit down and cross my arms
Hold me up to this song

Knock me out, smash out my brains
If I take a chair, start to talk shit...

If I get old, remind me of this:
That night we kissed, and I really meant it

Whatever happens, if we're still speaking
Pick up the phone, play me this song


It, uh, may be relevant? (It's a good song, goddammit.)
 

Wish

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I really like this song:

YouTube- A Reminder - Radiohead

If I get old, I will not give in
But if I do, remind me of this
Remind me that
Once I was free
Once I was cool
Once I was me

And if I sit down and cross my arms
Hold me up to this song

Knock me out, smash out my brains
If I take a chair, start to talk shit...

If I get old, remind me of this:
That night we kissed, and I really meant it

Whatever happens, if we're still speaking
Pick up the phone, play me this song


It, uh, may be relevant? (It's a good song, goddammit.)

<3

EDIT: I love how well the music captures that feeling of trying to look into the past and remember what was (it all seems so vaguely ludicrous at times).
 

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WishingWell, Cheese and I need to stop treating this thread like a urinal.
public-urinal.jpg

But our turds of wisdom still stand. (Posts #53, 54, and the steaming 57.)
 

Wish

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^Ha! In that urinal contraption, instead of having a mirror (or whatever it is) at head-level, there should be an opening so if there are multiple people using it they will be forced to look at each other unless they look down at their business!
 

fullerene

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I dunno. I'm not saying that everyone should buy into what society is a good accomplishment. And I encourage you to have passion in your job only because I hope that you get a job that you really love working at. ("If you get a job you love, you'll never work another day of your life.")

I'm going to Burning Man this year. I'm trying to figure out what I want to bring, what I want to contribute. Yeah, maybe I should just contribute myself and try not to get pwned. But I want to bring something interesting for people anyway! I want to be a contributor!

Trying the Straight things that society tells us to do.... (see picture)... I think they're worth trying. I actually like having a job (or at least I tell myself that). I feel satisfied every time I get off work. It keeps my mind busy with mental problems a lot of the day.

And for anything, don't knock it until you've tried it.

So you're right, you should have (some) happiness while working towards your accomplishment.

...(but I also think that INTPs often don't look at their happiness-thermometer, we just ignore it while we're thinking about a problem. So if we're going to ignore the happiness a lot anyway........ why not do something we will love the end-result of?"

Ok, while I do agree with all this...

Im not sure if there has ever been a more important time in the history of this country, in which the talented stand up. No more WOW. NO more DnD. No more self indulgent self loathing or sorrow. In another country, you would have been killed for lack of purpose.

Come on!

Get active. Do something. Atlas didnt shrug. he wished for more weight. stop being a waste.

I find it sad and ironic that a people with a love for systems can take the degradation of the US system so lightly.

these are not the words of someone encouraging everyone to accomplish good things, but not to get caught up in what others say is a good accomplishment. These are the words of someone who is either 1. regurgitating others' views on good accomplishments, or 2. happened to agree with others' views, after careful consideration on their own part. Either way, it sounds like he's effectively mimicking cultural ideology: "if you don't get out there and produce something for society, you're a waste." Obviously small-scale production/contribution is not what he's looking for, because otherwise he wouldn't have picked on Vreck for his 70-hour family-supporting work week. So I can only conclude that production-for-society is the type of thing he's talking about.

I'm not entirely convinced I'm one of the people he's talking about, because I don't hide behind the "I'm special for being different, and if I fail then it's only because I never wanted to try, as a defense mechanism because it appears that I'm failing" card. However, I am one of the people who realizes that humans cannot create ex nihilo. Production is consumption, so "get out there and do something, so that you stop being a waste" is an asinine thing to suggest. Depending on what you "do", you very well may be wasting the resources to do it (think: failed product made by a startup company that no one wants). By "doing stuff," you can very easily become more of a waste than the person who does nothing.


Equally annoying, to me, was bringing "the degradation of the US system" into the mix. The US system is not a good thing. We have relative safety (barring the possibility that people spontaneously stop believing money is worth anything, or some mathematician figures out and makes public the knowledge of how to find the prime factors of massive numbers efficiently--then we're pretty done for), but we fuck over the rest of the world badly to hold onto that (see: CIA selling drugs in South America to raise money for un-government-funded ops, invasion of the middle east, etc. Ron Paul even said, in a video I saw, that just about every war we have is initiated by private interest groups...). Perhaps this is just a system I refuse to support.


Finally:

perhaps because s/he can see in hirself how easily they could become one of us (various defense mechanisms sheilding self perception from this internal image or fear).

Excellent post

Im not afraid of reverting. I want to simply detract from the general levity of this forum.

I have a re occuring dream that motivates me.

Im running from something hidden through a snow covered field. I tire. I sit down. I die.


You might deny it consciously... but your subconscious, at least, suspects that Weliddryn is right :p
 

Trebuchet

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There are traps in this world. Im sorry to alienate a previous poster, but having to work 70 hours to support a breeders lifestyle isnt exactly family planning. Over population is kinda a problem. There are many other traps. A career can be a trap. Money, sex, cars. There are many impediments to true growth. Every human makes choices.

I keep reading this thread because I am fascinated by the boorishness. Vrecknidj's choice to support his family is an excellent way of making a difference. He has chosen something that not only matters to him, but that he can successfully affect in a positive way. What an excellent choice of goal, laudible in every way I can think of.

And if Vrecknidj didn't make the same choices as someone else, insulting him for it is uncalled for. It is also an insult to every other hard-working parent on the forum.

So, bluesquid, what exactly is your project that is changing the world in a meaningful way? I hope it goes beyond exhorting people on this forum to change their ways.
 

Weliddryn

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Excellent post

Im not afraid of reverting. I want to simply detract from the general levity of this forum. My worldview isnt something naive and sheltered, it has been educated by countless hours of study. There are many difficulties on the horizon for this country, I want as many INTPS as possible to be prepared.

Age is a huge factor. Why i want to start them young. If I had me when I was young, giving advice, it would have been alot less painful. Someone stated that an INTP can be polished into a gem. YES, that is my entire point.

This is not the way to shift the nature of the forum. Not to mention some lurking in the older threads may reassure your mind.

We could engage now, in a moral argument, of your right to decide for others how they should be or how your experiences could be applied to those on this forum. Perceptions are so flawed, and in this context the inaccuracy is only increased. (Stated for the purpose of any familiarity you may feel in the inhabiters of this forum being subject to question).

It bothers you that the country is falling apart, but there are so many aspects of this problem that could be questioned, including the basic question of whether it really is a problem. After these aspects and questions are analyzed and answered, you then have to accept that large events do not take place because of a few people or events occuring- many times people traverse blindly through chaotic events and make things happen almost as though there were an underlying force or greater entity controlling their actions. The fact is, not many people can do that much. Increments over time, trying to act as a catalyst may have us falling on our face whilst we attempt to run with our shoes tied together in the dark.

Present articles, videos, etc that will give those you wish to influence the intelligence to make their own decisions. If it is compelling enough, perhaps you will bear rights to make a meager claim at having influenced someone's behaviour to act but this attempt will not due.

There are traps in this world. Im sorry to alienate a previous poster, but having to work 70 hours to support a breeders lifestyle isnt exactly family planning. Over population is kinda a problem. There are many other traps. A career can be a trap. Money, sex, cars. There are many impediments to true growth. Every human makes choices

And I can be harsh and short sometimes. Im sorry.

Have to run, GOOD CHAT!

Excellent, you're working through some of the things many here perhaps feel paralyzed by via analyzation. There are consequences to every action or choice of lifestyle, Squid and all could be criticized due to this. You aid your family, etc and one could claim you're simply adding to the problem of over population and this is just one (quite ridiculous, to be honest) consequence.

Diversity is absolutely essential, also as not all patterns of growth will be applicable or ideal to others.

The fact that many here are willing to think so long on the consequences of their actions or at least can read the thoughts of others will perhaps prevent them from making mistakes from their perspective and their desired path of growth.

To state that there is a 'true' path of growth could be too narrow minded. Not to mention that this 'true' growth is undefined and even if it were defined, enforcing it on other people is arrogant + subject to its own consequences.

Doing as you are now is ineffective in this environment. Present your ideal path of growth in a coherent and solid manner, perhaps start another thread, and you will probably receive analyzations of the pro's and con's of your system. This could cause you to reassess your ideal and perfect it, if for no one else, than for yourself. Presents options not mandations.
 

Infinite Regress

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Present your ideal path of growth in a coherent and solid manner, perhaps start another thread, and you will probably receive analyzations of the pro's and con's of your system. This could cause you to reassess your ideal and perfect it, if for no one else, than for yourself. Presents options not mandations.

IMHO the concern would be the lack of follow through after analyzing - hence "stop wasting you life/time" statement. Too many options and priorities get mixed up/paralysis by analysis.

From experience there are plenty of people who analyze and are full of ideas, but most of it ends there. Laziness being the primary reason in the majority of cases.

I interpreted the underlying theme of the initial post as what you'd say to anyone with potential - don't waste it and go hard. Whether people take it into stride is their own issue.
 

Weliddryn

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IMHO the concern would be the lack of follow through after analyzing - hence "stop wasting you life/time" statement. Too many options and priorities get mixed up/paralysis by analysis.

From experience there are plenty of people who analyze and are full of ideas, but most of it ends there. Laziness being the primary reason in the majority of cases.

I interpreted the underlying theme of the initial post as what you'd say to anyone with potential - don't waste it and go hard. Whether people take it into stride is their own issue.

Yes, I understand this, but I am referring to the younger people who frequent this forum. Establishing a strong foundation or understanding of their environment and consequences resulting from issues would perhaps enable them to make better decisions for when they can change their environment or will need to. Once again, Age.
 

Trebuchet

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Yes, I understand this, but I am referring to the younger people who frequent this forum. Establishing a strong foundation or understanding of their environment and consequences resulting from issues would perhaps enable them to make better decisions for when they can change their environment or will need to. Once again, Age.

Why is it a problem for the younger members of this forum to be young? If some of them want to wallow in ennui, or try out 200 things without ever completing them, how is this wrong?

INTPs spend many years gathering information about the world, drifting a bit, and finally they get a sense of purpose. By that time, they know how to achieve what they want and what is possible, and they simply go do it.

I don't think you are going to get a sense of purpose out of an INTP who isn't interested in one, and the ones who are interested already have a purpose.

I would encourage all the younger members here to complete high school and college, if they haven't already, and enjoy life as much as they can, and to trust themselves to be good problem solvers.

Let the other personality types act when young. There are a lot of them, and they enjoy it and are good at it. And when those other types get stuck in a rut, or have a midlife crisis at 30, or lose their ambition to stupid office politics, the INTPs are just hitting their stride, coming up with new ideas, synthesizing the world in ways no one has ever seen. It can't happen if they don't get a chance to stand aside and observe for a long time.

I'm 41 and I have found the young people on this forum to be bright, charming, good writers, creative, and interested in all kinds of things. They also seem idealistic, sometimes frustrated, and sometimes scared. They seem okay to me.
 

Weliddryn

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Why is it a problem for the younger members of this forum to be young? If some of them want to wallow in ennui, or try out 200 things without ever completing them, how is this wrong?

INTPs spend many years gathering information about the world, drifting a bit, and finally they get a sense of purpose. By that time, they know how to achieve what they want and what is possible, and they simply go do it.

I don't think you are going to get a sense of purpose out of an INTP who isn't interested in one, and the ones who are interested already have a purpose.

I would encourage all the younger members here to complete high school and college, if they haven't already, and enjoy life as much as they can, and to trust themselves to be good problem solvers.

Let the other personality types act when young. There are a lot of them, and they enjoy it and are good at it. And when those other types get stuck in a rut, or have a midlife crisis at 30, or lose their ambition to stupid office politics, the INTPs are just hitting their stride, coming up with new ideas, synthesizing the world in ways no one has ever seen. It can't happen if they don't get a chance to stand aside and observe for a long time.

I'm 41 and I have found the young people on this forum to be bright, charming, good writers, creative, and interested in all kinds of things. They also seem idealistic, sometimes frustrated, and sometimes scared. They seem okay to me.

You misinterpret my post as I completely agree with what you've stated here. ;p

What I meant was that the deep discussions held here will perhaps attribute to a strong foundation to the younger people of this forum (myself included) thus this forum acts as a strong foundation for them to grow in.
 

Infinite Regress

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Yes, I understand this, but I am referring to the younger people who frequent this forum. Establishing a strong foundation or understanding of their environment and consequences resulting from issues would perhaps enable them to make better decisions for when they can change their environment or will need to. Once again, Age.

Discussion is fine, though imo accumulation of experience will add more value to their foundation and subsequent discussions. And no this isn't age or career specific.

Basically if I had to choose between the following:
If some of them want to wallow in ennui, or try out 200 things without ever completing them, how is this wrong?

I'd do and encourage the latter.
Sometimes when you leave things too late, you don't get a second chance. :(
 

Weliddryn

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Discussion is fine, though imo accumulation of experience will add more value to their foundation and subsequent discussions. And no this isn't age or career specific.

The thread was begun in regards to the members of this forum and much of those members are young, thus experience will be limited. And alternatives to what they do now on this forum or discuss on this forum could be oh so much worse by many people's standards.

Basically if I had to choose between the following:


I'd do and encourage the latter.
Sometimes when you leave things too late, you don't get a second chance. :(

Indeed. Circumstances, which we are not privy to in regards to many people on the forum, will influence the choices and possibilities, of course.
 

bananaphallus

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@bluesquid

I think I owe you an apology, my post was a knee-jerk reaction to being told what to do by someone who doesn't know me, but you're mostly right in your assessment, at least in my case. This is something I'll become aware of from time to time, a tendency to assume that things will fall into place, without much effort on my end, or that somehow all the fanciful ruminations I lapse in and out of day after day, imagining my future and how I'd like it to be, etc., are bound to happen at some point; in so many words - this poem, by E.A. Robinson:

Miniver Cheevy, child of scorn,
Grew lean while he assailed the seasons;
He wept that he was ever born,
And he had reasons.

Miniver loved the days of old
When swords were bright and steeds were prancing;
The vision of a warrior bold
Would set him dancing.

Miniver sighed for what was not,
And dreamed, and rested from his labors;
He dreamed of Thebes and Camelot,
And Priam's neighbors.

Minever mourned the ripe renown
That made so many a name so fragrant;
He mourned Romance, now on the town,
And Art, a vagrant.

Minever loved the Medici,
Albeit he had never seen one;
He would have sinned incessantly
Could he have been one.

Miniver cursed the commonplace
And eyed a khaki suit with loathing;
He missed the mediæval grace
Of iron clothing.

Miniver scorned the gold he sought,
But sore annoyed was he without it;
Miniver thought, and thought, and thought,
And thought about it.

Miniver Cheevy, born too late,
Scratched his head and kept on thinking;
Miniver coughed, and called it fate,
And kept on drinking.

I do realize I'm just kind of drifting along right now, not moving in any concrete direction towards anything, and I wonder, as others have mentioned, sometimes whether or not my viewpoints and tendency to rationalize things which need not be/shouldn't be rationalized, are really just some very gussied up laziness. Sustained motivation and enthusiasm with respect to any endeavor is not something, up to this point in my life, that I'm sure I'm capable of, but there's no sense in dawdling along [what I'm currently doing] and making excuses for being lackadaisical about/ and generally disinterested in my future - thereby ensuring that it won't be anything even remotely resembling what I'd envisioned. So, point(s) taken.
 

bluesquid

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Alot of great comments.

funny that some posters are telling me to stop telling them what to do, while others want to me to plot out a system? To tell them what to do.

I think its a waste for people with ability to focus on the unimportant. I do. Having a family is very satisfying, fact. Over population is also a fact. There are finite resources on the planet, but our culture says its a birth right to have a large family.
I digress.

If I told you that you could be a track star, would you be a computer programmer? Its your choice, but dont you see the inherent waste in taking a desk job?

This country is about to go through some very difficult times. This country is chock full of ignorant, breeding consumers. They dont stand a chance, but you do.

I dont want to tell you what or how to do what it is you need to do. But you had better start figuring it out. And it must be applicable to reality. Not the reality you currently enjoy, for it is fleeting. The reality of the world outside the cocoon of protection being currently provided. It is cold without heat, and you will go hungry without food. None of you see how beautifully intricate yet fragile the system that provides those things is?

will type more later. I have a date

feeling boorish




YouTube- Harvey Danger - Flagpole Sitta
 

Dormouse

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will type more later. I have a date and you don't.

:p

I kid.

Anyways, would just like to say, that the idea you have in general isn't completely reprehensible, and might actually sound appealing if you framed it in a slightly less agressive manner. Just sayin'.

As a young INTP, I'd just like to say that I have no apparent talents and no idea where I'm headed. And now that I think about it, I rather like it this way. I'm not special. But that's great. It means I won't be pressured to succeed, I won't be hedged into some competitive program and have the weight of the world dropped on my shoulders.

I can expect an average existence, probably full of meandering and surprises. Freedom, basically. I don't think I would change that if I could.

Because any difference I make on Earth will surely be erased in time. I won't agonize over anything that will only last an eyeblink of the universe.

Also, I'm not from the grand U.S. Surely it's future will affect me, but I'm not about to go all superwoman on it. It's just not my responsibility.

And to me, a life wasted is not one of directionlessness and wanderings, but one revolving around irrealistically high expectations and a drive to succeed no matter the cost.

I respect your value of determination and your idea that potencial should not be wasted. I might even agree, given the right circumstances. But I think you should know that being an INTP does not automatically make me 'special' in any way. I have very little potential, and hardly anything to look forward to.

So please don't lecture me on how to run my life. Especially as I'm an individual case, and I think you have unfairly generalized.

(Not to mention, that comment along the lines of 'getting them while their young'... sounds too much like brainwashing to me. Just show us the facts and let us make up our own minds.)
 

Sparrow

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I thought INTP's were the serious type.

Take offense, I dont care. But you all are pentium chips running the new facebook app. Is this forum this unencumbered by responsibility?

I am so happy every fucking day that I wake up that I have god given ability. But thats not enough for me. I want it to matter.

Half of you live in anime world. The other half are depressed. WAKE UP!

This is life. IF, IF, I have anything in common with you, YOU are a mental giant living in the philosophical equivalent of a mobile home.


Im not sure if there has ever been a more important time in the history of this country, in which the talented stand up. No more WOW. NO more DnD. No more self indulgent self loathing or sorrow. In another country, you would have been killed for lack of purpose.


Come on!

Get active. Do something. Atlas didnt shrug. he wished for more weight.


YOU are something. Dont over analyze it. Get out there and be a force for good. Isnt that logical?

stop being a waste.

YOU FAIL
YouTube- You fail
What you just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I’ve ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered rational thought. Everyone in this forum is now dumber for having listened to it.
 

warryer

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What you just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I’ve ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered rational thought. Everyone in this forum is now dumber for having listened to it.

A simple no would have sufficed.

---

Why so many hostile reactions? I took this to be a kick in the ass to do something useful to mankind. Is this not admirable?

Over population is going to become a very serious issue in the future. I would not be surprised if the States, EU and elsewhere follow China's suit and institute a 1 child maximum. Hell, I could see it going as far as to say that testing will be instituted to see where people are best suited in the grand machine.

As the population grows, energy, food, water demands are going to grow as well. One report expects global energy demands to grow by 44% by 2030. The numbers of course are subject to change but the fact is that unless we are willing to take standard of living cuts (which most aren't) the demands will increase inevitably due to population growth.

Supply and demand dictates that these things will become more and more expensive. This will lead to standard of living cuts irregardless. It could also be a weeding out effect for the poor nations so perhaps it will balance out but, is this really humane? Why do you think Bob Barker tells us to have our pets spayed or neutered?

This is definitely one problem I have with society: the lack of accountability, the lack of responsibility. "Each raindrop never thought itself responsible for the flood."

I wonder if individuals such as Einstein, Tesla, Newton ever thought that their work would become as profound as it did.
 

fullerene

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Let the other personality types act when young. There are a lot of them, and they enjoy it and are good at it. And when those other types get stuck in a rut, or have a midlife crisis at 30, or lose their ambition to stupid office politics, the INTPs are just hitting their stride, coming up with new ideas, synthesizing the world in ways no one has ever seen. It can't happen if they don't get a chance to stand aside and observe for a long time.

I'm 41 and I have found the young people on this forum to be bright, charming, good writers, creative, and interested in all kinds of things. They also seem idealistic, sometimes frustrated, and sometimes scared. They seem okay to me.

this is exactly what I expected to happen. It's been a constant source of friction with my ESTJ/ISFJ parents, too... they treated my like I couldn't do a single thing for myself until I was like 20-ish, preventing me from growing in many of the ways that I so badly wanted to, in an effort to prevent me from making mistakes.... and then immediately started pushing me to integrate into the workforce (I'm still in college... so that means doing things like internships and resume-building things that would help integrate into a workforce like them). I would much rather reflect, and quite frankly I think I've found out a lot of things over the past 3-ish years that I expect will help me avoid a mid-life crisis later. In my mind, that was what I always fell back on: "it's worth it to wait a little now and make sure I want to be where I'm heading, so there are no regrets later."

It's good to hear from someone in their 40s that that can actually work!

funny that some posters are telling me to stop telling them what to do, while others want to me to plot out a system? To tell them what to do.

Those without critical/closely-involved/fair parents, and those with them, I'd wager. If you grow up with critical/detail-oriented parents, it's much more comfortable to be told exactly what to do because then you know exactly how to keep them off your back, because they're fair and you know if you do exactly what you're expected to, there won't be any problems. If doing "everything" right doesn't keep them off your back, either because they're unfair or unclear, or you never had that kind of environment, I would bet you'd rather people stop telling you what to do.

That's my guess, at least. I know I like having things spelled out 100% for me in a job or whatever other setting I'm expected to have things done... but it's very much not-an-INTP trait. I figured parents were the best estimate of reason for it, though, so it never bothered me that few others here are also like that.


Why so many hostile reactions? I took this to be a kick in the ass to do something useful to mankind. Is this not admirable?

I was thinking about this a little bit... to be honest, from the complaints people have had against him, I don't think it was what he was saying or how he said it that upset anyone, but the combination of the two.

It's like, "you're wrong and sure of yourself: instant respect drop." "you were also a jerk about it: now I'm just pissed off at you." If people are nice you can try to argue with them, virtually any view is respectable if you're unsure of it, and if you're a jerk who's not infringing on others then they've no reason to be annoyed by you.... but the combination of the three results in "who the fuck do you think you are?"

That's at least the impression I got.
 

Words

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Change is experience is knowledge is fulfillment. Though I don't really understand what the problem is.. :confused:
 

merzbau

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Im sorry to alienate a previous poster, but having to work 70 hours to support a breeders lifestyle isnt exactly family planning. Over population is kinda a problem.

^ wrong assumption is wrong.

the earth has a much larger carrying capacity than the wasteful culture we perpetuate currently allows. the problem is not lack of resources, but who controls access to those resources.

your little jab about people supporting a "breeders lifestyle" (subtext: "useless eaters"), hasty and superficial though it may be, exposes the tendency of this overpopulation problem to be used as an apologia for culling the poor, unproductive or supposedly unimportant members of society for the irredeemable crime of daring to exist.
 

Lyra

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XIII - now available in pocket size.
:) See, that's the trouble with XIII: her message is hardly relevant. It's the structure of her message that matters. I'd like to officially state, on behalf of the United Personalities of Myself, that XIII does not endorse the structure of bluesquid's message. She does, however, appreciate bluesquid's intent. She also dislikes seeing him ganged up on and ridiculed for daring to suggest that the norm might be... imperfect.

Given that, the peace cabinet of XIII has decided to provide humanitarian aid:



PATHWORKING OF EAR, THE BOOK OF HELA


[bimgx=300]http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc159/daimonion_october/14Hel-Art.jpg[/bimgx]
[HELA here depicted.]

Blackness everywhere.
A white bear running is the only relief from the darkness.
The bear tears apart and devours a man.
The man's soul is grasped by a black robed skeleton.
Grabbing the soul's arm,
the skeleton forcefully leads him to a boat.
The pervading darkness makes it difficult to discern the
nature of the waters-- whether river, stream or sea.
The boat is oared by a young, fair, bearded man.
It beaches.
The skeleton again grabs the arm of the soul
and takes him towards a cliff face.
A large raven lurks atop the entrance of a cave.
Inside a few men sit playing dice.
The soul is met by a crone.
She is decaying.
Her flesh hanging from her skull,
The rest covered by a rotting black robe covered in shreds,
She grabs the man...
Violates him...
And with a kiss powerfully sucks
the remaining life-force from him.
He stands limp, weakened further by the vampiric ordeal.
The crone transforms into a slender young woman,
with long black hair,
adorned in a tightly fitting white dress.
However, half her face retains the decay of the crone.
She leads the man before a throne of skulls...
And sits upon it, smiling.
The soul takes a sword and in desperation
strikes the woman through.
Laughing, she transforms back to the crone,
and repeats several times:
"No man can escape his destiny"
"No man can escape his destiny".
The soul turns and walks down one of the many narrow
tunnels.
But comes to a dead-end.
These are the tunnels of missed opportunities...
Of stunted destinies...
And now it is too late to travel them.
The soul looks upward and sees a vision of Valhalla.
It is a vision of what might have been.

W.G

(Comment: One can never kill Hela once the lots of Perthro have been thrown: the paths are there to travel or forego. The man had the Wyrd of a warrior to follow if he so chose but ended his days by accident. He did not pursue his Wyrd, but Fate pursued him.)


 

EditorOne

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"I thought INTP's were the serious type."

Rephrase? If you thought INTPs were ALWAYS serious, if that's your definition of a "serious type," you indeed made a wrong assumption.

You may bring your world back in balance quite easily by rephrasing it to say "I know INTPs are capable of intensely focused seriousness." However that still leaves a lot of room for variables, because implied in your further discussion is a context of seriousness as "not centered on self." That is, your paradigm appears to be we should use our gifts on behalf of mankind or something. Am I reading that right?

So let me ask the ultimate INTP question: Why?

World history is speckled with gifted, effective people of possible proto-INTP origins who caused great pain and suffering by deciding to do something good for the world, according to their own definitions of "good." How far back would you like to go? Akenaten and monotheism in ancient Egypt? Charlemagne and nationhood? Hitler? The most recent Bush? How about Nobel and dynamite? Or that good old Mahmoud Ahmadinejad over there in Iran, sure the world will be a better place if he can just get a nuclear bomb in his closet to make sure everyone around him gives him some space?

Great gifts come with great responsibility, because huge consequences are possible if the gifts are applied effectively. It's an extrapolation of the leadersrhip principle: A true leader doesn't make sure people are doing things right; that's mere management. Leadership involves making sure people are doing the right things. That's a whole other ballgame, and thoughtful people are inevitably going to second guess themselves and quite likely end up in a state of permanent ambivalence.

For instance, what about oil? Of course we are going to use it all up, the only question is whether it's in 20 years or 500 years. Some say the responsible thing to do is cut our use for momentary benefits like cheap energy, divert more of it into products that provide longer dividends in terms of extended use (durable plastics and whatnot) and generally postpone the day of reckoning. That's the accepted wisdom on this. Except -- what if the collateral outcome is stagnation of science? What if we focus so hard on prolonging the inevitable that we lose the mental tools and physical plant necessary to deal with an oil-less world? Maybe the thing to do is consume oil faster, so that when it runs out we have six billion people clamoring for science to find a cheap-enough way to extract energy from hydrogen or whatever to replace it, because the absence of sustainable energy would lead to worldwide violence and the collapse of civilization? A great many of our best ideas come out of crisis; WWII carried a huge price in human terms, but it also created scientific leaps in relatively short amounts of time, as nations focused intensely on survival. Ditto space -- the benefit doesnt' seem to be getting into space itself, but the scientific knowledge about stuff that makes life better here.

Maybe we need to make things difficult, like John Kennedy said, because most good things come out of challenges, not complacency or parsimony.

But in any event: After devoting serious thought to many things that defy predictable outcomes due to imponderable variables, sometimes the best alternative might very well be to put on some music and get silly on the INTP forum with others also exhausted by their inability to figure out how to actually save the world or even figure out if the world deserves to be saved.


Hope that was in keeping with the discussion. I've been off indulging myself in Florida, first actual prolonged, away from home vacation in more than 20 years. The vacation included avoiding serious thinking, so I'm kind of overdue. :cool:
 

Trebuchet

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So let me ask the ultimate INTP question: Why?

Great post EditorOne. I will add: What?

I am actually involved in larger social issues. One example: here in California, as many people know, there is an ongoing fight over Prop 8, which bans same-sex marriage in our state. There are people here working hard on both sides of this fight, working phone trees and going door-to-door, and giving their time and money in all kinds of ways.

Anyone following the issue can tell from my phrasing which side I am on, but I am not being explicit because it isn't my point here. I am doing it because of my beliefs and my patriotism. I think it really matters. But I have lost friends because of bitter disagreement, and they are also following their beliefs and patriotism. I know they are wrong; they think I am wrong, and we are both trying to "stand up" and do something valuable in the world. This has cost a lot of time, money, energy, and attention, and it still isn't done. Is that what the OP had in mind?

Bluesquid, you seem to think that any INTP getting involved will automatically be on the side of right, but they wont. That's why I wonder what exactly you would have people do? What do you actually think is right?

Also, I completely fail to understand why you think being a computer programmer is more of a waste of time than being a track star. I expect we'll have to agree to disagree here, because I think computer programmers have done a whole lot more to improve the world than competitive athletes. Staying fit is good, but how does running faster than other people do anything to improve the world? Without computer programmers, there wouldn't be a human genome project, or air travel, or climate change models, or this forum. Without competitive track stars, there wouldn't be...um...track meets.
 

bluesquid

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"I thought INTP's were the serious type."

Rephrase? If you thought INTPs were ALWAYS serious, if that's your definition of a "serious type," you indeed made a wrong assumption.

You may bring your world back in balance quite easily by rephrasing it to say "I know INTPs are capable of intensely focused seriousness." However that still leaves a lot of room for variables, because implied in your further discussion is a context of seriousness as "not centered on self." That is, your paradigm appears to be we should use our gifts on behalf of mankind or something. Am I reading that right?

So let me ask the ultimate INTP question: Why?

World history is speckled with gifted, effective people of possible proto-INTP origins who caused great pain and suffering by deciding to do something good for the world, according to their own definitions of "good." How far back would you like to go? Akenaten and monotheism in ancient Egypt? Charlemagne and nationhood? Hitler? The most recent Bush? How about Nobel and dynamite? Or that good old Mahmoud Ahmadinejad over there in Iran, sure the world will be a better place if he can just get a nuclear bomb in his closet to make sure everyone around him gives him some space?

Great gifts come with great responsibility, because huge consequences are possible if the gifts are applied effectively. It's an extrapolation of the leadersrhip principle: A true leader doesn't make sure people are doing things right; that's mere management. Leadership involves making sure people are doing the right things. That's a whole other ballgame, and thoughtful people are inevitably going to second guess themselves and quite likely end up in a state of permanent ambivalence.

For instance, what about oil? Of course we are going to use it all up, the only question is whether it's in 20 years or 500 years. Some say the responsible thing to do is cut our use for momentary benefits like cheap energy, divert more of it into products that provide longer dividends in terms of extended use (durable plastics and whatnot) and generally postpone the day of reckoning. That's the accepted wisdom on this. Except -- what if the collateral outcome is stagnation of science? What if we focus so hard on prolonging the inevitable that we lose the mental tools and physical plant necessary to deal with an oil-less world? Maybe the thing to do is consume oil faster, so that when it runs out we have six billion people clamoring for science to find a cheap-enough way to extract energy from hydrogen or whatever to replace it, because the absence of sustainable energy would lead to worldwide violence and the collapse of civilization? A great many of our best ideas come out of crisis; WWII carried a huge price in human terms, but it also created scientific leaps in relatively short amounts of time, as nations focused intensely on survival. Ditto space -- the benefit doesnt' seem to be getting into space itself, but the scientific knowledge about stuff that makes life better here.

Maybe we need to make things difficult, like John Kennedy said, because most good things come out of challenges, not complacency or parsimony.

But in any event: After devoting serious thought to many things that defy predictable outcomes due to imponderable variables, sometimes the best alternative might very well be to put on some music and get silly on the INTP forum with others also exhausted by their inability to figure out how to actually save the world or even figure out if the world deserves to be saved.


Hope that was in keeping with the discussion. I've been off indulging myself in Florida, first actual prolonged, away from home vacation in more than 20 years. The vacation included avoiding serious thinking, so I'm kind of overdue. :cool:

LOL, good read. Peak oil is a serious problem. "Collapse" is a great primer.
 

bluesquid

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Great post EditorOne. I will add: What?

I am actually involved in larger social issues. One example: here in California, as many people know, there is an ongoing fight over Prop 8, which bans same-sex marriage in our state. There are people here working hard on both sides of this fight, working phone trees and going door-to-door, and giving their time and money in all kinds of ways.

Anyone following the issue can tell from my phrasing which side I am on, but I am not being explicit because it isn't my point here. I am doing it because of my beliefs and my patriotism. I think it really matters. But I have lost friends because of bitter disagreement, and they are also following their beliefs and patriotism. I know they are wrong; they think I am wrong, and we are both trying to "stand up" and do something valuable in the world. This has cost a lot of time, money, energy, and attention, and it still isn't done. Is that what the OP had in mind?

Bluesquid, you seem to think that any INTP getting involved will automatically be on the side of right, but they wont. That's why I wonder what exactly you would have people do? What do you actually think is right?

Also, I completely fail to understand why you think being a computer programmer is more of a waste of time than being a track star. I expect we'll have to agree to disagree here, because I think computer programmers have done a whole lot more to improve the world than competitive athletes. Staying fit is good, but how does running faster than other people do anything to improve the world? Without computer programmers, there wouldn't be a human genome project, or air travel, or climate change models, or this forum. Without competitive track stars, there wouldn't be...um...track meets.

Yes the metaphor was imperfect. Only an INTP would notice.

as for championing same sex marriage? Im for it. Let people do anything they want as far as marriage goes. But a hetero sexual male, devoting time and money so that homo sexual males and females can marry? just weird
 

EditorOne

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Lest I be thought thoroughly a captive of my brain, the situation in Haiti prompted me today to begin the process of getting a passport. Now that I am "retired" there's no reason I can't volunteer my time to shovel rubble off bodies or whatever. I'll pass on this one, at least the early phases, but the thing about disasters is they're like buses; you might miss one, but another will be along shortly.

My thought processes have led me to conclude that there's just no downside to helping out people more miserable than me. :)
 

Trebuchet

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Yes the metaphor was imperfect. Only an INTP would notice.

Only an INTP would notice that you said anyone with a desk job is a waste? That wasn't a metaphor; it was an insult. And even if every other MBTI type in the world would be happy with that, it doesn't make it right.

as for championing same sex marriage? Im for it. Let people do anything they want as far as marriage goes. But a hetero sexual male, devoting time and money so that homo sexual males and females can marry? just weird

Okay, so equality is not your issue. That is fine, though I question why you think it is necessary to call me weird.

EDIT: Actually, it isn't fine. You criticized people for not being activists. My way of "standing up and making a difference for society," as a member of the privileged majority, is to fight for equal rights for the minority. That doesn't have to be your issue, you can even disagree with my stand on it, but how dare you act dismissive of it or call it weird?

But my question wasn't, "How do you feel about same sex marriage?" It was, "What is your issue, or just one of them?"
 
Last edited:

ProxyAmenRa

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I have always thought that saving the world is up to the INFJs and INTJs.

I am looking at my life in a Kilio (is that how you spell it?) aspect. I exist to drink coffee. Nothing more, nothing less. Everything else is just filler.
 

bluesquid

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Lest I be thought thoroughly a captive of my brain, the situation in Haiti prompted me today to begin the process of getting a passport. Now that I am "retired" there's no reason I can't volunteer my time to shovel rubble off bodies or whatever. I'll pass on this one, at least the early phases, but the thing about disasters is they're like buses; you might miss one, but another will be along shortly.

My thought processes have led me to conclude that there's just no downside to helping out people more miserable than me. :)


awesome! But dont go to Haiti.

http://wcbstv.com/national/haiti.earthquake.haiti.2.1427143.html
 

bluesquid

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Only an INTP would notice that you said anyone with a desk job is a waste? That wasn't a metaphor; it was an insult. And even if every other MBTI type in the world would be happy with that, it doesn't make it right.



Okay, so equality is not your issue. That is fine, though I question why you think it is necessary to call me weird.

EDIT: Actually, it isn't fine. You criticized people for not being activists. My way of "standing up and making a difference for society," as a member of the privileged majority, is to fight for equal rights for the minority. That doesn't have to be your issue, you can even disagree with my stand on it, but how dare you act dismissive of it or call it weird?

But my question wasn't, "How do you feel about same sex marriage?" It was, "What is your issue, or just one of them?"

Only an american would consider what your doing, "fighting for equality". Homosexuals have all of the benifits of being married, except the word, married. I find it illogical to want more, and to fight for that as a hetro? It is weird to me. sorry.
 

fullerene

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do they? I thought there were tax benefits and other obnoxious little things like that too. I pay so incredibly little attention to those sorts of things that I would have no idea if that were true or not. I thought that was the main complaint, though.
 

Inappropriate Behavior

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Only an american would consider what your doing, "fighting for equality". Homosexuals have all of the benifits of being married, except the word, married. I find it illogical to want more, and to fight for that as a hetro? It is weird to me. sorry.

Man, did you ever get that wrong. If you think it's just about a word then you don't know much about it. What is it you call a person who speaks on that which he doesn't know?

Crypt...I mean fullerene *migraine coming on!* is on the right track. It is an equal rights issue. And if you don't see where it is important for someone in the majority to fight for those in the minority then perhaps you might want to go talk to your Negro slave about it.....Oh wait, you don't have one do ya?
 

bluesquid

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your equating homosexuals fight for same sex marriage to the African Americans fight for civil rights?

A gay man not being able to wear a white dress in a civil ceremony isn't even close to segregation.

wow. lol
 

bluesquid

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Lyra has "got it". I say he is off track at times, but that is my predjudice of youth talking.
 

dbtng_thomas

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I've got to chime in with the folks who suspect your impressions have been colored by the younger members here. When I was in my late teens, I sounded much like them. Discipline seems to come hard and later in life for us, frequently after some bad experiences.

That said, your post looks like a troll. The criticism you offer is unbalanced and easily countered, not to mention the fact that you are telling a group of folks who write their own rules to live by yours. In another forum I read you'd be told to 'lurk moar'.

- dt
 

Trebuchet

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Only an american would consider what your doing, "fighting for equality".... It is weird to me. sorry.

bluesquid said:
Yes the metaphor was imperfect. Only an INTP would notice.

So far you have dismissed my comments as nitpicking (only an INTP would notice) and parochial (only an American would consider [that] "fighting for equality."). It is true: I am an American INTP. If you don't approve of that, fine.

But you have not answered my question.

bluesquid said:
Get active. Do something. Atlas didnt shrug. he wished for more weight.

YOU are something. Dont over analyze it. Get out there and be a force for good. Isnt that logical?

stop being a waste.

What do you, bluesquid, do to "get out there and be a force for good"?
 

Inappropriate Behavior

is peeing on the carpet
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your equating homosexuals fight for same sex marriage to the African Americans fight for civil rights?

A gay man not being able to wear a white dress in a civil ceremony isn't even close to segregation.

wow. lol

Damn, now I've have to decide whether you are just playfully punking us or just stupid. I will reserve judgement for the time being.
 

bluesquid

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So far you have dismissed my comments as nitpicking (only an INTP would notice) and parochial (only an American would consider [that] "fighting for equality."). It is true: I am an American INTP. If you don't approve of that, fine.

But you have not answered my question.



What do you, bluesquid, do to "get out there and be a force for good"?

Why state what I do. It wont hold a candle to fighting for gay rights. For the sake of privacy, im not going to get specific.

But seriously? Who is the most prominent homosexual advocate, and the most prominent civil rights activist? based on sheer numbers involved there is a huge difference. gays have always been afforded the same basic rights. Blacks not. If you cant see the difference IB? wow.
 
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