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Where is the proof for MBTI?

Andropov

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I don't think MBTI is complete psuedoscience; it's a nice guideline and a good way to find and interact with people who are similar to you. The basic 4 letters are a bit arbitrary, but they make some sense at least. The functions, however, are complete nonsense. Especially when it becomes even more convoluted with shadow functions and shit like that. Where are people getting this from? These things can't be empirically proven. I can make up something like Impulsive Analysis (IA) and Unimpulsive Analysis (UA) and build a whole system from those functions and not much would change. Know what I mean? This isn't very well written since I have to go somewhere soon but I hope I got the general message across.
 

EyeSeeCold

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Proof!? You can't handle the proof!
 

Andropov

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What I'm saying is that it's a useful model, but that's all it is.
 

Fukyo

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You don't say?

Maybe you could do some research on that. It's really easily available. There are thousands of studies out there, and the tips of your fingers, courtesy of google, so you can draw your own conclusions.

http://www.intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=7735#16

http://aptinternational.org/assets/jptvol65_1105_apti.pdf

http://www.keys2cognition.com/papers/EEGandSocialCognition.pdf

http://web.archive.org/web/20061210155437/http://www.greatlakesapt.org/uploads/media/beebe1.PDF
But it's always better when someone else does the work, isn't it?
 

Methuselah

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What I'm saying is that it's a useful model, but that's all it is.

My friend, useful models make up 99 percent of human knowledge. Don't diss useful models.
 

CoryJames

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Anything that attempts to pigeonhole anything, ESPECIALLY something as versatile and environmentally malleable as a human, is never going to anything more than a loose model.
 

SkyWalker

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What I'm saying is that it's a useful model, but that's all it is.

You don't seem to get that the map (=the model) is not the territory (=reality)
There is no model that is equal to reality. Any model is by definition a useful abstraction/simplification of reality. That's why it's called a model!

We can never model reality 100%, but we can get ever closer to it (improving our model every time).
 

JoeJoe

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We can never model reality 100%, but we can get ever closer to it (improving our model every time).

Until it gets so complex, that it gets impractical to work with. At least without huge computing centers.
 

ProxyAmenRa

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It is just a method of categorizing various personality types. It does not exactly require proof because it already fulfills its purpose.
 

Zero

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There are still a lot of questions surrounding any kind of trait theory and their exactness. But there are a massive number of assumptions people make when we even start with "science" and "fact." It's impossible to completely unravel it all at this point. I think psychology in its whole has been called a pseudoscience and probably not wrongly.

That aside, Jung observed very basic things and made a scale between the things he saw. There isn't a need for "proof" if you understand the very basics of it.

I'm going to assume the question here is mostly on the functions, not the expressions. The expressions are Extroverted/Introverted and Judging/Perceiving. Expressions are so obvious, there isn't much reason for explain them in the first place, IMO.

I'm approaching this as the very original meaning Jung appeared to have for S/N and F/T.
Jung thought that two people could see the same thing and have completely different interpretations of what they were seeing or understanding.

If this assumption is true, then Sensing verses Intuition is one scale conjured in order to measure this perceiving function.

Supposedly when a Sensor perceives something it is in a logical way. They observe something in the present and in connection to things that are logically connected to it. Sensors don't tend to connect other information into what they sense or see. Particularly T types, if something is broken, it must be fixed, if something is not broken it does not need to be fixed. I have to pair T with this example, because T/F is the deciding factor.

Intuitives don't observe something logically. That means that a number of other factors could come to their minds in the observation of something. Time and place does not necessarily separate instances or items, they are overall inputters and thinkers. Just because it's broken, doesn't mean it has to be fixed to be the same as it was before, just because something isn't broken doesn't mean that it doesn't need to be changed.

Ses experience singular, logical events. Ns experience universal, connective events.

Then there is Feeling and Thinking. These functions were originally based on decision modes. Can people make decisions? Given the same information can they make different decisions? If they can then this is a scale to supposedly model two types of decision making.

Feeler supposedly make decisions based on their gut feelings. Fs usually make connective, universal decisions, which apparently lends itself to people-involved situations. Fs come off more instinctive I suppose. It's probably better described somewhere else. On Wiki it's described as being decision making as if from the inside.

Thinkers are the supposedly logical decision makers. It's often given too much merit, because of our current societies continued 1800s fascination with science and objectivity. Thinkers view a decision as if outside it and hence are more detached.

We probably all know that there are ways people intake sensations and make decisions. What those are, I suppose, could be called into question. Simply, that seems to me what Jung did: he thought or observed these functions.

The MBTI is still frequently used, especially within work and business I've found. The MBTI's purpose was within business if you look up the history.

The question becomes, what kind of proof is everyone looking for? What sort of proof for or against any trait theory? If we don't know then there's no way to approach the question. If the question is whether or not a person can accurately test themselves, then we also have the question if others can accurate test them. Who is in the position to accurately test anyone?

Society has people chronically over diagnosed. I was reading today that one in four Americans have a mental illness. What kind of fact is that? What have we made into mental illness? Soon I'm going to read "Crazy Like Us" which I'm very interested in seeing the verdict in. Historically societies have made ridiculous illnesses out of natural behavior, at least that is what we think of the past. The problem with this is that societies have personalities, They can be defined and compared. We can create stereotypes and characters out of nations the same way we can with people.

We don't have utopian societies, we don't have static societies. There's nothing absolute and static about culture, it evolves. All of psychology is flawed based on this, surprising, so are some more static sciences it would seem.

Pseudoscience is more popular and well known than "science." Today's 100% true 100 facts, four generations down the line will be 10 facts and 90 myths from the early 21st century.

IMO, it is pretty funny.
 
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EyeSeeCold

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lol Was all that even necessary? Not that it wasn't informative.

Basically you really don't need proof for Jung's findings, as they were based on empirical observation. The inductive causations of Jungian types and MBTI however need proof. Personally I don't accept MBTI interpretations anymore as accurate, however this is the natural way of scientific reasoning. Find a "truth", and stick to it until a new useful "truth" replaces the old.

Socionics has active participants in psychology working to map cognitive functions to the brain with ongoing empirical studies. I haven't heard of any MBTI practitioners doing anything similar. In my opinion, halting empirical research in favor of theory internalizing is detrimental to the theory itself.
 

pjoa09

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my only damn problem is that nearly everyone comes off as soo damn close to the line. of XXXX
 

Zero

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That is the question though, What is "empirical observation" within bias, society, culture and so on that made them?
 

walfin

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EyeSeeCold said:
Basically you really don't need proof for Jung's findings, as they were based on empirical observation.
This doesn't make sense. Why wouldn't I need proof because something is "based on empirical observation"? Indeed empirical observation is a form of evidence that can lead to proof.

OP, if you were to say that MBTI is unscientific, that is indeed one of the criticisms often levelled at it. There are many criticisms levelled at the MBTI including that the scales don't have a bimodal distribution which kind of invalidates the MBTI use of dichotomies.

The more "scientific" personality tests are 16 PF and Big 5. The traits were discovered using factor analysis (check out the wiki page on 16PF) and these tests use continuums, which are supposed to model reality better. The MBTI actually corresponds quite strongly to the Big 5 on 2 scales and significantly on 2 other scales so it probably does not have very much of an advantage to the Big 5 (since it is effectively a subset). I believe Myers would've had difficulties if she'd included neuroticism because neuroticism is something that seems clearly bad, which would offend the whole idea behind Gifts Differing that no type is better than another.

I find that the MBTI does offer a pretty accurate description of myself. It's not useless just because it produces nothing more than what went into it - if everything like that were useless, companies would not be using business analytics tools. But it remains merely a method to organise data into something which is convenient for analysis.

As for function theory, there is no proof that distinct "functions" exist in our brain - they were just Jung's observations and seem more to be convenient abstractions. There isn't any proof that an INTP necessarily has Si/Fe as their tertiary/inferior functions either, or even that INTPs have Ne as auxiliary - what's to stop an INTP being Ti Fi Ne, for instance? My significant other gets Fe as her top function and Te as her second function on some function tests.

I have never found that function theory describes me particularly well too. Function tests have consistently given Fi as my third function after Ne (I am not so strong on the T/F dimension), and when I read descriptions of what Fi should be like as a tertiary function (according to the archetypes) I find I identify with it and do not feel that Fi is a "daemon" or 8th function in my case. That makes me anomalous from the point of view of the MBTI which gives the INTP function order as Ti Ne Si Fe. As far as I can see, the simplest explanation is that MBTI function theory is at the very least inadequate since it offers an inaccurate description of people, especially those who do not score strongly on one or more scales, and at the very worst is complete bullshit and utterly useless.
 

EyeSeeCold

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This doesn't make sense. Why wouldn't I need proof because something is "based on empirical observation"? Indeed empirical observation is a form of evidence that can lead to proof.
You misunderstood. I stress that you don't need proof of Jung's observations because they are proof in and of themselves. The inductive causations or explanations, however, need proof, as I have said already.
 

Reluctantly

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Okay, wait here. I'll go get the proof, brb.

K, I'm back. The proof's in mah pocket. Wanna see it? ;)
 

Words

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I found proof by looking at the deconstruction of "cognition" and the interesting relationships between the theory and my own experiences of reality. It's not much of a proof but it makes enough sense to a degree I can handle and work on.
 

IfloatTHRUlife

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Perfect model = impossible

Despite being able to categorize people into specific personalities, people still feel the same feelings and think the same thoughts, no matter how unique they are, so you cant have a single personality type that absolutely 100% describes every aspect of one personality without overlapping several other personalities.

If you want proof, reading the description of your personality and correlating it to yourself in reality should be enough, it cant be too far off if you have correctly typed yourself. If you need more proof than that, you must be a negative nancy. :rolleyes:
 

walfin

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EyeSeeCold said:
You misunderstood. I stress that you don't need proof of Jung's observations because they are proof in and of themselves. The inductive causations or explanations, however, need proof, as I have said already.

I see. Then again, I'm not sure if we can consider Jung's observations proof in & of themselves. Proof of what? Proof that he made those statements? Not proof of the content, I think. I've read what he wrote on the 8 types (General Description of the Types) & I found it was full of stereotyped thinking (I mean, just read the Introverted Thinking part & see what you think of it) & little substantiation. It's not useless but it's really not anywhere close to "proof". No empirical data like worldwide studies & stuff.
 

EyeSeeCold

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I see. Then again, I'm not sure if we can consider Jung's observations proof in & of themselves. Proof of what? Proof that he made those statements? Not proof of the content, I think. I've read what he wrote on the 8 types (General Description of the Types) & I found it was full of stereotyped thinking (I mean, just read the Introverted Thinking part & see what you think of it) & little substantiation. It's not useless but it's really not anywhere close to "proof". No empirical data like worldwide studies & stuff.

The assertion that there exists certain typical manifestations in people does not need new scientific proof. Types have been known for centuries. Jung's interpretations of his observations, however, are expectedly subject to...well, subjectivity.

If I went to a forest, and witnessed a bird get eaten by a bear and wrote it down, I wouldn't need proof as I'm not claiming a fact. It is an observation of a certain case. When I give reason to why what happened - happened then that would need proof.

Now are we on the same page?
 

walfin

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EyeSeeCold said:
The assertion that there exists certain typical manifestations in people does not need new scientific proof. Types have been known for centuries. Jung's interpretations of his observations, however, are expectedly subject to...well, subjectivity.

If I went to a forest, and witnessed a bird get eaten by a bear and wrote it down, I wouldn't need proof as I'm not claiming a fact. It is an observation of a certain case. When I give reason to why what happened - happened then that would need proof.

Now are we on the same page?

I invite you to fork this as we are getting kind of off topic. As it is, I will keep my response [relatively] brief.

If you witnessed a bird get eaten by a bear, that is proof that at the material time, you witnessed it getting eaten by a bear - i.e. the state of your mind (assuming that you did not lie). However, that is not proof that the bird indeed got eaten by a bear. You could have been, among other things, intoxicated, seen some kind of illusion, hallucinating, mistaken (perhaps it is not actually a bird but something else altogether, or perhaps it is not a bear but some other species which you did not know and thus could not identify). Therefore it is only evidence, a thing that tends to prove a particular disputed fact, and not proof. And yes, you would be claiming that something, in particular, that a bird was eaten by a bear at a specific temporal and spatial location, is a fact.

How then do we find proof? By using more than one piece of evidence. There may be a variety of ways - courts generally rely on the testimonies of more than one witness, the scientific method may rely on repeated findings of the same or very very similar things (oh, there are many sightings of bears eating birds in this particular location in the forest - that probably means that birds are likely to be eaten by bears there). Does "proof" mean that something is established and will not possibly be changed? We don't know, since there is always the possibility (albeit perhaps vestigial) that something might come up to contradict such proof. And so, does the fact that types have been "known" for centuries necessarily mean that such "knowledge" is correct? Perhaps not, that is argumentum ad antiquatem. Just because something appears to have been established for a long time doesn't mean it cannot be contradicted by new stuff.

Now, I reiterate, none of this is meant to say that everything that Jung said is nonsense. Just that I'm not sure if his model is entirely adequate now that the Big 5 model exists. Perhaps there is an "Introverted Neurotic" and "Extroverted Neurotic" type? Is Neuroticism a function? Perhaps it is a function attitude? Perhaps there are other functions which we have not given a name to? Considering the degree of correlation of T/F with Agreeableness in Big 5 (relatively weaker than E/I and S/N), can we say that T is definitely one function? Perhaps it is a composite? And what if Big 5/16 PF also do not describe reality all that well? I don't know the answers to these questions but I do know that Jung's type model doesn't answer these questions either, which makes his model only a rudimentary one.
 

KazeCraven

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All we need is evidence. We have some of that.

Proof is for systems like mathematics.
 

EyeSeeCold

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I invite you to fork this as we are getting kind of off topic. As it is, I will keep my response [relatively] brief.

If you witnessed a bird get eaten by a bear, that is proof that at the material time, you witnessed it getting eaten by a bear - i.e. the state of your mind (assuming that you did not lie). However, that is not proof that the bird indeed got eaten by a bear. You could have been, among other things, intoxicated, seen some kind of illusion, hallucinating, mistaken (perhaps it is not actually a bird but something else altogether, or perhaps it is not a bear but some other species which you did not know and thus could not identify). Therefore it is only evidence, a thing that tends to prove a particular disputed fact, and not proof. And yes, you would be claiming that something, in particular, that a bird was eaten by a bear at a specific temporal and spatial location, is a fact.
Stating your observations != Claiming a fact. "I saw an attractive woman today". I'm not sure if what I saw was really a female, but that's what I observed. I am not claiming that it is a fact that what I saw was actually a woman.

Jung did not claim that his observations were the truth, he just wrote down what he observed (and then interpreted the observations).

How then do we find proof? By using more than one piece of evidence. There may be a variety of ways - courts generally rely on the testimonies of more than one witness, the scientific method may rely on repeated findings of the same or very very similar things (oh, there are many sightings of bears eating birds in this particular location in the forest - that probably means that birds are likely to be eaten by bears there). Does "proof" mean that something is established and will not possibly be changed? We don't know, since there is always the possibility (albeit perhaps vestigial) that something might come up to contradict such proof. And so, does the fact that types have been "known" for centuries necessarily mean that such "knowledge" is correct? Perhaps not, that is argumentum ad antiquatem. Just because something appears to have been established for a long time doesn't mean it cannot be contradicted by new stuff.
Your reasoning makes sense, however, you aren't directing it towards my concerns. The fact that there are intrinsic peculiarities in humans does not need proof, they exist and serve as they're own evidence. You do not ask for proof of an orange's existence when you have one in your hand.

Now, I reiterate, none of this is meant to say that everything that Jung said is nonsense. Just that I'm not sure if his model is entirely adequate now that the Big 5 model exists. Perhaps there is an "Introverted Neurotic" and "Extroverted Neurotic" type? Is Neuroticism a function? Perhaps it is a function attitude? Perhaps there are other functions which we have not given a name to? Considering the degree of correlation of T/F with Agreeableness in Big 5 (relatively weaker than E/I and S/N), can we say that T is definitely one function? Perhaps it is a composite? And what if Big 5/16 PF also do not describe reality all that well? I don't know the answers to these questions but I do know that Jung's type model doesn't answer these questions either, which makes his model only a rudimentary one.
These are Jung's interpretations, this is what I claim needs proof. All along I have posited the same thing; I suspect my critical nature leads you to think there is disagreement when there was none all along.
 

Lobstrich

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I look at MBTI this way: It's in no way a scheme where you can put people in different types and go "you believe this, and you this, you this" etc.

Take me, an INTP and another INTP. I could be a communist, he could be an extreme capitalist. It's not our type which decides what we are, what we believe in and how we act. But what we do have in common is how we come to the conclussion, and the descision that communism/capitalism is the right thing for us.
And that is why I think MBTI is a genuine 'test'

At least that is my theory of what MBTI is.. No matter if it's intention really was supposed to pre-determine our beliefs. (haven't really read much into that part of it)
 

walfin

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EyeSeeCold said:
You do not ask for proof of an orange's existence when you have one in your hand.
What? This coming from an INTP? What is the world coming to?!

That was what our entire disagreement was about (well, not quite, but never mind). Anyway. Minor point.
 

Architectonic

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I'm sorry to break it to you guys, but MBTI is mostly pseudoscience. For it to become more accepted science, more comprehensive predictive models of behaviour have to be developed and the weasel words used to describe types must be shed.

Don't get me wrong, the 'big five', '16pf' etc. are also mostly pseudoscience.
 

EyeSeeCold

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I'm sorry to break it to you guys, but MBTI is mostly pseudoscience. For it to become more accepted science, more comprehensive predictive models of behaviour have to be developed and the weasel words used to describe types must be shed.

Don't get me wrong, the 'big five', '16pf' etc. are also mostly pseudoscience.

captainobvious.jpg
 

CoryJames

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Captain obvious is a great hero.
 

SkyWalker

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the weasel words used to describe types must be shed.

YES, SPOT ON! We have to replace the stupid annoying weasel words with deeper & more fundemental "WHYs" behind it all.

Weasel words like: "Feelers like to live in harmony with other people", such beautifying sentences are not very helpful and they confuse, they annoy me tremendously.
 

EyeSeeCold

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YES, SPOT ON! We have to replace the stupid annoying weasel words with deeper & more fundemental "WHYs" behind it all.

Weasel words like: "Feelers like to live in harmony with other people", such beautifying sentences are not very helpful and they confuse, they annoy me tremendously.

Agreed. They can be useful to learn more about types, but using such descriptions as the essence of what a type is gives typology a limited perspective.

I did that a lot when I was first getting into MBTI. Even though my descriptions were logical, they were highly inaccurate.
 

Architectonic

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I think we should continue this discussion. ;)
 

Reluctantly

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To be honest, I think the Jungian functions can be analyzed in a person's past behavior, but using them to assign a type won't be necessarily true following, since we go through different experiences where different Jungian focuses have to be made. Usually it's only after the fact that we come to understand what is going on with ourselves and learn something insightful through that. I suppose though that Jung's psychological types look at long-term behavior patterns and possibly these aren't changed easily, if really at all.
 

Artsu Tharaz

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To be honest, I think the Jungian functions can be analyzed in a person's past behavior, but using them to assign a type won't be necessarily true following, since we go through different experiences where different Jungian focuses have to be made. Usually it's only after the fact that we come to understand what is going on with ourselves and learn something insightful through that. I suppose though that Jung's psychological types look at long-term behavior patterns and possibly these aren't changed easily, if really at all.

This is correct: MBTI is fundamentally the study of the structures of our mental processes, not their content.
 

thoumyvision

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You don't seem to get that the map (=the model) is not the territory (=reality)
There is no model that is equal to reality. Any model is by definition a useful abstraction/simplification of reality. That's why it's called a model!

We can never model reality 100%, but we can get ever closer to it (improving our model every time).

This is great, I will use it.
 

Haiduc

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The proof is in the pudding?

When I first read the description of an INTP, I found it uncannily accurate, as I'm sure a lot of people on here did.

My ex-girlfriend got me into MBTI. She's an ENFP, and I found that description accurate. Much as I found the ISTP description accurate of my housemate, and so forth...

From my personal experience, I've found it to be a valid model to explain and predict behaviour. I totally appreciate that this is merely anecdotal evidence, but my subjective mind is telling me that it has merit.

All we need is evidence. We have some of that.

Proof is for systems like mathematics.
 

xbox

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I don't think MBTI is complete psuedoscience; it's a nice guideline and a good way to find and interact with people who are similar to you. The basic 4 letters are a bit arbitrary, but they make some sense at least. The functions, however, are complete nonsense. Especially when it becomes even more convoluted with shadow functions and shit like that. Where are people getting this from? These things can't be empirically proven. I can make up something like Impulsive Analysis (IA) and Unimpulsive Analysis (UA) and build a whole system from those functions and not much would change. Know what I mean? This isn't very well written since I have to go somewhere soon but I hope I got the general message across.

I agree with you, it was something that helped me realize and understand how I am. For something I discovered this year, I was first skeptical, but after reading into a lot of stuff, I am really intrigued by how accurate it was. I use MBTI for the sake of self-improvement and understanding myself and others.
 

ideae

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I think it may derive from the two-stage model of free will, where in making decisions, there first is a perceiving stage of receiving options, and then is a judging stage of choosing one from the others.
 

ObliviousGenius

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No, no, no. MBTI is like a mental skeleton that serves as a basic framework for how personality works. Of course it will never be 100% accurate because it isn't deep enough to encompass ALL personality behavior. 16 total types is a good number that categorizes each function in a way that is specific enough (and not too detailed) to fit each type of person there is in the world. Why does categorizing ideas to fit a model need proof anyway.

What sort of proof would even qualify AS proof if there is no way to fully match a model 100% We're not talking about DNA traits here, it's not that specific.
 
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