The Singularity

[Jesin]

I still say the distinction seems arbitrary.

 

[Jordan~]

It's the idea of having a final goal. Goals themselves are a natural thing, I suppose, but nature never has one.

 

[Jesin]

Oh? And what's the goal?

 

[Jordan~]

Whatever the one doing the evolving wants.

 

[Gorgrim]

and what purpose does it have an entire world of information ready? you will need infinite processing power or limited knowledge. I see where saving your brain from doom is going, but one has to question themselves what joy there is in being alive for a very long time.

I see infinite information as useless, it is the creativity with which you handle the information you have. A human lifespan prolonged serves the purpose of loading more information. But children's creativity is why humans should exist in the first place.

If you can produce creativity, it has lost meaning already. What is an infinite life worth, it's worth nothing. I still have my doubts about this, even beeing able to live 300 years might not be as good as making the most of 80.


I also don't see the argument that the brain can emulate infinity in some form, and then you can just create it. It will take a way too drastically long way to create something as good as a brain, and sadly, each generation dying before they get close, surpassed by evolution in the process. It's already got us this far, If it's not broken, don't fix it. I hope im not wrong.

Besides, I have a huge number of available experiences ready to be had. This is redicolous, I can't see the benefit....

 

[Jordan~]

An infinite life is worth nothing, a finite life is worth nothing. An infinite life can be broken up into infinite finite lives - simulated lives, but no less real than our current (probably simulated, not certainly real) life. Children's creativity is worthless against that of a transhuman brain. The brain is a stack of chemicals, there's no reason for it being impossible to emulate artificially. Human experiences are mundane, limited and anulled by death; compared to a transhuman's, which are greatly more varied, limitless, and continue for eternity. Evolution has produced beings with bodies and minds maladjusted to the world they've created, cells which commit suicide spontaneously, and countless other absurdities. It's done well for random chance, but with the direction of a rational agent it would do much better.

 

[Artifice Orisit]

Are we not mere children now?
With the scant century we get now (at best) very few people are able to realise their purpose in life and pursue it. Also our oldest and wisest are locked away in nursing homes and treated like children whilst the inexperienced young make their mistakes all over again.

Here's a question for thought:
If I made you immortal and sent you back a few hundred years, would the world now be a better or worse place as a result?
Would you destroy the world or eventually realise how pointless that would be and instead seek to have a positive effect. I imagine if people had to live in the future they created then they'd be a lot more cautious about the actions they take; sure mistakes would be made but they wouldn't just leave the resulting problems for future generations to solve.

 

[loveofreason]

... I imagine if people had to live in the future they created then they'd be a lot more cautious about the actions they take...

This is the best, if not ultimately the only, argument that matters when it comes to the need for immortality.

Living with the consequences of our actions is maybe the only thing that can make us 'grow up' as a species.

 

[The Fury]

This is the best, if not ultimately the only, argument that matters when it comes to the need for immortality.

Living with the consequences of our actions is maybe the only thing that can make us 'grow up' as a species.

I don't think we'll ever learn that. We constantly harp on about learning from the past but we never do. I think if we lived a million lives all we would be left with would be a billion regrets. That and the longing for death.

 

[loveofreason]

One life. No death.

 

[Jordan~]

What if we could suspend the emotion of regret? What if we could die at will?

 

[severus]

Without emotion...what is the point of anything? No happiness, no love, no satisfaction.... I do not understand the appeal of such a situation. "Emotions at will" does not make sense to me. How can we "want" the emotion in order to will it into being, if we do not have any emotion to begin with?

Perhaps I am not understanding this concept fully. I look forward to eternal life, but I don't want to spend it in the matrix.

 

[hopefulmonster]

Are we not mere children now?

I repeat this to myself all the time. People look at our current level of technology and our satisfied but I'm not. Our current capabilities are just child's play maybe worse but we think we are all grown up. What I would give to have been born even 25 years from now. When I think about our understanding of biology, physics etc I just cringe at our appalling ignorance.

 

[hopefulmonster]

Without emotion...what is the point of anything? No happiness, no love, no satisfaction.... I do not understand the appeal of such a situation. "Emotions at will" does not make sense to me. How can we "want" the emotion in order to will it into being, if we do not have any emotion to begin with?

Perhaps I am not understanding this concept fully. I look forward to eternal life, but I don't want to spend it in the matrix.

singularity DOES NOT=EMOTIONLESS. True ai is capable of simulating all the various processes going on in the human brain. A post singularity being would be able to do more then just emulate human emotions they could have even more advanced emotions. Much like how we "feel" more then the rest of the animal kingdom a "machine" post singularity would be capable of far more emotional depth then a biological human. An example would be the end of Eon by greg bear where a post-singularity human is trying to explain emotions like #*+- or 0/0. Its like trying to explain love to a slug. I look forward to the emotional enrichment.

You have to get over "normal" ideas of machines you really can't tell the difference in any primal sense once a true ai is developed.

 

[Jordan~]

Without emotion...what is the point of anything? No happiness, no love, no satisfaction.... I do not understand the appeal of such a situation. "Emotions at will" does not make sense to me. How can we "want" the emotion in order to will it into being, if we do not have any emotion to begin with?

Perhaps I am not understanding this concept fully. I look forward to eternal life, but I don't want to spend it in the matrix.

There's no point of anything. Emotion is vulnerability and pain. I hate it and I want it to die a bloody and miserable death. Let it know how it feels to be abandoned by someone you adore, let it understand all the pains it inflicts on us.

I believe the comment on emotion was addressed mainly to me. I would choose to live without it. It's the closest I could get to not living at all without dying.

 

[Thaklaar]

Bah. Could care less about the AIs' emotional depth. Trans-human. Post-human. Non-human. Y'all will be the Other. Competition. I'll fight you to the last breath. A Wrecker. Even if I am destined to go the way of Vonnegutt's Ghost Shirts. Viva la Meat!

 

[Jordan~]

Are you sure? I'll be incapable of mercy.

 

[Thaklaar]

Are you sure? I'll be incapable of mercy.

And that right there is why I'll fight you to the death rather than join you.

 

[Jordan~]

You could keep it if you wanted. Personally, I find it worthless. But if you want to throw your life away, it's your choice. You'll have no children, or if you do, they'll transcend. If they don't, their children will, or they won't have any. The finite lifespans of humans doom them to extinction.

 

[Artifice Orisit]

Bah. Could care less about the AIs' emotional depth. Trans-human. Post-human. Non-human. Y'all will be the Other. Competition. I'll fight you to the last breath. A Wrecker. Even if I am destined to go the way of Vonnegutt's Ghost Shirts. Viva la Meat!

How... sporting.
I'll give you the entire world to hide in and a year long head start.
If you manage to survive for 24 hours I'll give you another year.

Best. game. ever.

@-Jordan~
I think we'll use emotions as entertainment, even now stimulating the right area of the brain with an electrode will cause some very... pleasurable effects.
(I also have a plan to take over the world using positive reinforcement and a "happiness" device that I'll implant in people's brains)

 

[Thaklaar]

How... sporting.
I'll give you the entire world to hide in and a year long head start.
If you manage to survive for 24 hours I'll give you another year.

Best. game. ever.

You'll still have...hardware...of some sort. Fanciest 'puter you can imagine'll still be vulnerable to, oh so many things. You've got more to lose than me. And rats are good at hiding.

 

[Artifice Orisit]

That's why it's such a good game, anything else is just too easy.

And stop making me derail my thread.

 

[The Fury]

"One life, no death"- Lor

What good is life without death? Often to appreciate one thing you need a contrast to it. You can't truly appreciate freedom until you've been imprisoned. Peace is just a word without the threat of war.

I think immortality would be a terrible thing to befall humanity.

 

[Artifice Orisit]

Why?

Most normal people don't really consider that they're going to die until it's too late, and the weird people like me lament that we will never achieve all we want to achieve in such a short period of time.
Also there are other motivations than death, although once dead anything that has been achieved becomes meaningless from the perspective of the deceased.

 

[The Fury]

The human brain is unable to process ideas that are either on a very large or very small scale. And so you can't understand what it would be like to live for billions and billions of years. Forget about the fact that if no one died the earth would be vastly over populated in a few hundred years or that if everyone lived forever then there would be no chance for humans to evolve and become better beings.

Just because you would become immortal doesn't mean that you'll be a different person. If you truly have goals to accomplish, why are you here. If you want to learn different languages, if you want to visit other places or if you want to create an invention that will change the world, then do it. Nothing will change if you have a longer life, you will simply have more time and soon that time will become a bigger burden than you could ever believe.

There are few things I would die for, but stopping humanity from becoming immortal is one of them.

 

[Kuu]

There are few things I would die for, but stopping humanity from becoming immortal is one of them.

What? Oh well, we'll bide our time, let your martyrdom pass us by unscathed, and then proceed to become immortal once you are out of the way. Resistance is futile.

 

[Artifice Orisit]

The human brain is unable to process ideas that are either on a very large or very small scale. And so you can't understand what it would be like to live for billions and billions of years.

1. Yes but I can extrapolate upon current knowledge.
2. Your logic also applies to you.

Forget about the fact that if no one died the earth would be vastly over populated in a few hundred years.

As problems go that's not a big one, post singularity technology will enable interstellar expansion, or we could just stop breeding as cyborized humans tend to do.

if everyone lived forever then there would be no chance for humans to evolve and become better beings.

Trans-Humanism, that's the entire point, evolution.

Just because you would become immortal doesn't mean that you'll be a different person. If you truly have goals to accomplish, why are you here. If you want to learn different languages, if you want to visit other places or if you want to create an invention that will change the world, then do it. Nothing will change if you have a longer life, you will simply have more time and soon that time will become a bigger burden than you could ever believe.

Ignoring the poor logic for now... you know this how?

There are few things I would die for, but stopping humanity from becoming immortal is one of them.

Well, at least your willing

 

[The Fury]

1. Yes but I can extrapolate upon current knowledge.
2. Your logic also applies to you.

As problems go that's not a big one, post singularity technology will enable interstellar expansion, or we could just stop breeding as cyborized humans tend to do.

Trans-Humanism, that's the entire point, evolution.

Ignoring the poor logic for now... you know this how?

Well, at least your willing

I got a bit dramatic there, always happens when I listen to music when I'm writing.

Trans-humanism, isn't evolution, evolution is a change in the genetic material of a group of organisms, from one generation to the next.

I know this the same way you know that a post singularity technology will enable interstellar expansion. It's called inductive logic. In laymens terms, a guess based on the evidence you already have.

 

[Artifice Orisit]

True, Trans-humanism isn't evolution, it's better.

Touché, both points = invalid.

Except for the "stop breeding bit" and wiping out the remaining "Terrans" (non-cyborg humans) will free up some space, both being valid options that are viable by inductive logic.

 

[The Fury]

So in the end it will come down to humans v cyborg? Well then, I'll see you on the battlefield. All those years of watching The Terminator 1 and 2 over and over will finally come to fruition.

 

[Artifice Orisit]

Yeah, I'm looking forward to your well rehearsed screams.

Oh and look out for the new movie

 

[severus]

Hm this is a bit off topic, but seeing the current state of things, I suppose it's alright.

Has anyone read the Chronicles of Amber?
Ghostwheel=singularity (creative machine)
Merlin=transhumans (ability to switch forms, uploading consciousness)
shadows=the simulated realities some transhumans will inhabit
^walking through shadow=transforming/changing the simulated reality
Doesn't it fit so nicely?

 

[Jesin]

It's happening!

http://www.google.com/intl/en/landing/cadie/
http://cadiesingularity.blogspot.com/
http://www.youtube.com/cadiesingularity

 

[Jordan~]

I was like "WHAT" until I remembered the date.

Laughing hard now.

 

[saffyangelis]

The date?

What does that have to do with anything?

=P

 

[Jordan~]

April Fool's Day.

 

[Artifice Orisit]

Nice.

 

[saffyangelis]

I was kidding. The little =P smiley means it's a joke.

(Plus, when Jesin tried it on the IRC, no-one fell for it)


(And Indiv had already tried it that morning)

 

[Melkor]

I found it highly entertaining. Good to know peopleat the top remain witty.

 

[Tyria]

I disagree. Those in power will fight to stay in power, no matter who they are. To say a peaceful transition between Transhumanism and the current time is a bit naive. Although I agree that it would be a lovely utopia, I can't think that there won't be bloodsheed.

 

[Jordan~]

The thing is, as soon as there are transhumans, the contest will be over. It will be a war between gods and ants.

 

[Artifice Orisit]

Well... assuming the technologies being developed by the transhumanist community are only distributed between transhumans (they become separatists from mainstream society) then it's probable that the transhumans would be able to use this technology to gain a powerful tactical advantage.

However the unaltered humans will still have considerable numerical and logistical advantages.

As entertaining as these projections are I think it’s far more likely that transhumans will serve society through “sponsorships”, meaning that they’ll work for wealthy corporations and governments that can afford to provide them with the latest technology and access to vital maintenance services.

 

[Cryss Winters]

I'll be a prototype. =)
My homepage will be Wikipedia with random article. haha

 

[dents]

Jordan, I am not buying your premise that once people transcend, it's the end of all conflict. There is a finite amount of energy and the second law of thermodynamics says it's not sticking around forever. No matter how advanced civilization gets, the energy supply has an end. Sure, they can bust out fusion or some crazy direct matter-to-energy process a la Larry Niven. But eventually we are going to run out of matter. Besides, if a transhuman can modify it(?)self, I can imagine spreading across more and more "hardware", which would deplete available *really* quickly. I dunno, just crazy theories, my point is that I don't see how conflict of interests would ever be eliminated, unless life ceases to exist.

Also, you're all about wiping out emotion. Have you ever though about what it's like to not feel any emotion at all? Why would you bother to do anything at all? I can't think of a single thing that is physically possible to do that is worth doing if you take emotion out. Seriously, I think one of us is missing a crucial part of the argument. Can you name anything that would be easier to accomplish if emotion were eliminated? I'm probably going to come back with "but to expend the energy to do that, it needs to be somehow worth it, otherwise you are not acting rationally"

 

[Artifice Orisit]

No matter how advanced civilization gets, the energy supply has an end. Sure, they can bust out fusion or some crazy direct matter-to-energy process a la Larry Niven. But eventually we are going to run out of matter. Besides, if a transhuman can modify it(?)self, I can imagine spreading across more and more "hardware", which would deplete available *really* quickly. I dunno, just crazy theories, my point is that I don't see how conflict of interests would ever be eliminated, unless life ceases to exist.

Well we do have many billions of years before that becomes a problem, after all the universe is a big place, the biggest place actually. Though your point is still valid, people will always find a reason for conflict with each other, which is a good thing if you consider how it acts as a catalyst for technological development.

Can you name anything that would be easier to accomplish if emotion were eliminated?

Maths, chess, anything that requires intense concentration, dealing with loss, logical deduction, poker
Yet again you do have a point; human emotions work like computer heuristics, they enable us to do things with RIGHT NOW reaction speeds by circumventing normal situational processing, they enable us to make intuitive choices based upon fuzzy data and also enable us to function as a co-dependent society without having to actively try.

Unfortunately our current set of emotions are too primitive for modern society and if we wish to progress further, faster, we will need to make some adjustments.

 

[Jordan~]

When I made the comments about emotion I was about as close to suicide as I've ever been. It would be fairly safe not to take them too seriously.

 

[dents]

Well we do have many billions of years before that becomes a problem

That's just because we are using up resources at a rate that allows that statement to be true right now. If we transcend, that's going to let us use matter/energy in far more creative ways. When you have the power to convert matter to "hardware" to make yourself smarter, why would you ever stop doing that? Rhetorical question, but you get my point I hope.

Maths, chess, anything that requires intense concentration, dealing with loss, logical deduction, poker

Good point, but I still think anything we do can eventually be traced back to emotion. Why do people do math or play chess (just to pick a few things)? To improve themselves (I posit that all self improvement is going to come back to self-preservation, which is a type of feeling)? To have fun (emotion in itself)? Etc, etc.

I'm not sure what the point of existence is if you take emotions out.

When I made the comments about emotion I was about as close to suicide as I've ever been. It would be fairly safe not to take them too seriously.

Yea it sounded like you were going through something and not exactly being Mr. Rational. Doesn't make your point any less valid or relevant though. I'm very interested in AI development and have always been curious about the role of emotion in our daily lives.

 

[Artifice Orisit]

Your values are consistent of an Feeler type, but you have an NT's curiosity... how interesting.

I will not argue that emotions are useful and at some level necessary for a functioning human level psyche, however I will contest their priority when determining one's basic values. Emotions are inconsistent sensations cause by an primitive instinctual reaction to certain stimulus and although they have a profound effect upon the mind it would be a mistake to interpret the potency of this effect as justification for their validity. Although this innate hardwiring of the human mind is the result of millions of years of evolution it cannot be trusted to always have the correct answer to any given situation.

Instead it is better to actively apply logical discourse when developing one’s values because the result will be specifically designed for the current situation; although this method does require considerably more effort than blindly following one’s emotional hardwiring and comes with less of a emotional gratification.

I suppose you are wondering why someone would go to all this effort unless motivated by some form of emotional gratification, although if someone has recognised how emotional gratification affects their decision making then is it not possible that they could have decided against letting it direct them, instead relying upon logical discourse that eventually provides its own justification when the derived implications come full circle.

In summary one dose not require emotional gratification as motivation to perform "self development", "self preservation" or even to have fun; such things serve specific purposes and can be enjoyed if one wishes to, enjoyment for the sake of enjoyment itself is easily justified.

 

[dents]

Ha "emotions are dumb and should be hated"

:seriousface:

I do agree that emotions are just hard-wired heuristics and should certainly not be blindly followed. The reason a lot of things are so fucked up in the world is that people let their emotions steer them. My mantra has been "emotions should flow from your beliefs, not the other way around", a la Yudkowsky. Certainly, I always try to put my feelings second and act rationally. There have been times where I realized that a certain course of action would result in my own misery, but it was the logically correct thing to do. The logical path always wins and I deal with the misery it brings. Thankfully that does not happen a lot, otherwise I'd be pretty bummed out Anyways, even though I am (or at least think of myself) as extremely rational, every time I play the "why" game with myself and try to trace down the exact reason that I am doing (or avoiding doing) anything, it always comes down to "it makes me feel good/bad". I figured that's part of the human condition, how we are wired. Can you think of one instance where you did something that did not eventually make you "feel better"? And no cheating and picking a case where you made the logical move and life dicked you.

 

[Felan]

I enjoy emotions quite a lot, they are fun and interesting to me. Sometimes I suppress emotional responses when making a decision or when I'm interacting with someone.

For example when I worked in a pawn shop if someone tugged on sympathies while asking for measure more of consideration than would be normal, I noted that I had a negative bias toward this. Which is to say I would be more stubborn about sticking to the normal consideration. Conversely if someone was funny and entertaining I was more pliable about, but I rarely got too carried away.

I think a strength of INTPs isn't that they don't have emotions, but that they are more investigative and in touch with their emotions. I had co-workers that very regularly could not tell when their decision making was being unduly influenced by emotions.

I think stripping away the emotions would be horrific mistake.