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The Fallen Adymus

snafupants

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The bullshit at the beginning basically sounded like MBTI fused with MOTIV but all right. After that it appeared as though some retarded sign language reader was stroking out. At one point Adymus says "forensic, irrefutable evidence" whatever the fuck that means. I'm mentally checked out of anything that begins with "greetings." :D

Edit: I just heard "warm, wizard gesturing" and "yin" and "yang" in the same sentence.
 

snafupants

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How does the physiognomic squint of "worldview map power" not resemble introverted sensing?! :phear:

That comes at around 10:35 but I'm going to do something more productive soon.

Shit's bogus. I didn't make up "worldview map power," but I'm laughing so hard right now.
 

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I wonder what he'll think of himself in 5-10 years :confused:
 

Puffy

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Well, he's a more energetic speaker than the other pod'lair speakers, I'll give him that much. :p

It's kind of funny really. Thomas being like, 'I am Nai'xyy, therefore I can relate to people, bla bla, mojo, haid'xyyiaj,' where he then calls Adymus an INTP equivalent, the seemingly worst on the register of relating to others, and he's at least energetic, flooring the talks in comparison. I know there's the hand signals, and the purple and green and fuzzy shit going on, and the lingo, but Adymus can't help that, man; working the best with what he's got. :p
 

cheese

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I really appreciated what he started talking about at around 22/23 - talking about locking down with Si. This is what I meant in another thread by 'anchoring' with Si ("Vai"). It really does feel like something being locked down or anchored inside you, and your entire self stabilises and solidifies. And yeah, the MBTI, or at least the way it's discussed, really doesn't account for that sort of development. A lot of the discussion on the forum does preclude that kind of change, and encourage that squashing of your potential, and it is way too black-and-white to explain the nuances we experience.

Function-based theory does it a little better, but only by incorporating function-interaction and the outcomes that has.

I find the music annoying. I wish there was an option to turn it off. The talk is its own music. Having both on at the same time just lessens each.

And I still find the arrogant/combative attitude a bit off-putting. But I can sit through Adymus's videos. I relate to the way he talks. He 'makes sense' to me. A lot of the others don't hit me the same way.

A lot of the stuff he says makes a lot of sense. It's mainly about expanding our understanding of type, in a way that's positive and offers more opportunity for growth. I'm about halfway through (33 mins) and it's just sensible stuff, rather than plugging podlair.


Aaargh, I'm tired by INTPs saying they're all androids too! It *is* annoying/fucking lame.


Don't lynch me, people. :p He makes sense, god donut!
 

Architect

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And I still find the arrogant/combative attitude a bit off-putting. But I can sit through Adymus's videos. I relate to the way he talks. He 'makes sense' to me. A lot of the others don't hit me the same way.

A lot of the stuff he says makes a lot of sense. It's mainly about expanding our understanding of type, in a way that's positive and offers more opportunity for growth. I'm about halfway through (33 mins) and it's just sensible stuff, rather than plugging podlair.

I think PL has something to offer, but it's a theory created by a few young NF/NT types who aren't good at marketing. The best ideas in the world will die and disappear without finding a way to connect to people.

I'd like to understand the theory but so far they've not managed to pull that off for me.

Aaargh, I'm tired by INTPs saying they're all androids too! It *is* annoying/fucking lame.

In a EF dominant culture I think it's a way to assert and identify with an alternate viewpoint.
 

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That's how it starts cheese.
Next thing you know you'll be doing funny head gestures too. :eek:
 

Fukyo

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Adymus sounds the most annoying of them. The forced 'in yo face' comical expressiveness really makes me cringe... but anyway, what's important is to know yourself, save yourself, save the world! :D
 

Lyra

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Adymus sounds the most annoying of them. The forced 'in yo face' comical expressiveness really makes me cringe... but anyway, what's important is to know yourself, save yourself, save the world! :D

Going on camera is actually really hard. I'm not happy with how I come across, and I know I've made lots of mistakes and I'm not as good or strong a person as I'd want to be before putting myself up for the type of criticism that's going on in this thread. But we're all doing the best we can.

We feel what we have to say is very important, and so there is a tendency to extremity in our presentation, and perhaps this doesn't always come off right given that we don't have a large budget or professional marketers. But we really are trying our best to do what seems right.

We really have put a lot out there that nobody's challenged or dealt with as seriously as it deserves. It's been discovered, the way to understand it's been presented. Surely that deserves a little more attention and credit than whatever it is about our imperfections it's easy to ridicule? Especially by anonymous voices who aren't putting themselves out there, opening themselves up to, the same kind of flak. It's not like what we have to do is fun or easy in many of its aspects, and it's not an ego thing. It's a hard task based on an analysis of the present situation and we need to psyche ourselves up and maintain a certain intensity and momentum to even carry on going with it. More than one of us has sacrificed profitable and comfortable career paths to do this, and most of us would rather not have to take the responsibilities we are, sacrifice what we are.

Essentially we feel this info is necessary to help people and alleviate a great amount of suffering, and have accepted that we're going to sacrifice our own comfort to make that happen. We panic. We want to stop. We have doubts. But again and again seeing the thing actually play out whenever we go out into the world sets us back on course. So we do the best we can, and it would be really great if people who had suggestions and skills that would help us do it better understood why we're motivated and then helped. Instead of just sniping at us from the comfort of the uninvested, anonymous sidelines.

I don't think we deserve this kind of reaction.
 

Puffy

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Hi Lyra, long time no see. :)

No offence, but when people used to raise any kinds of criticisms on the pod'lair boards they'd simply get banned. Maybe things are different now, I'm not sure as I haven't been following it closely, but that was how it was when this forum knew pod'lair. They never gave the impression that they were looking for constructive criticism.

If you're looking for that now. While granted the posts in this thread have been tongue in cheek so far, maybe they could be taken as signs of some of the general reactions to the videos. I don't doubt your sincerity. But the general impression given of pod'lair is that of a cult, which can be perhaps broken down from some of its elements. Thomas's presentation as the infallible leader; the private hand-signals and language; the strange visual effects used to communicate 'mysterious'. I'm not sure if this is to elicit curiosity perhaps, or to present pod'lair through an altered lense (to mirror a change in perception necessary to adhere to pod'lair's teachings)? But I think overall it communicates a weirdness that isn't attractive (especially within the intensity of a 40 minute monologue), and perhaps that's what's being seen in some of the responses.

I'm not saying cult's are inherently good or bad. I think from what I remember of your posts before, it's a familiar platform to you. But in general occultism appeals to a small elite, if you're wanting to reach a mass audience I'm not sure it's the best image pr wise. But that's my two cents.

edit: By this, I mean. Even the phrasing of the thread title, 'The Fallen Adymus.' Why fallen, it suggests he had some kind of success before (?) When Adymus used to communicate pod'lair's ideas through facial reading, it was quite popular. It was only when he turned us to pod'lair that people started to lose trust. Maybe it has nothing to do with the ideas itself, I don't know, but presentation seems important, and this continuing kind of reaction seems linked to that presentation, which the videos seem to be continuous with.

I hope you take none of this as an attack, just your average bystander.
 

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If you wanted to be taken seriously, you'd stop with the silly head-signs and the frankly painful video editing. You guys aren't dumb. Well..... at least some of you aren't. I'm not so sure about your fearless leader. I presume the bad design is obvious to some of you and you're being intentionally.... retarded and ridiculous. None of the possible intentions for doing so are benign. This 'image' is, imo, designed to attract/weed out gullible and stupid prey. You're looking for mooks.

If you wanted people to hear and understand your content, this is the exact opposite of what you'd do. It's purposely obfuscated, and in a very obvious manner. You're outright insulting the intelligence of anyone who takes the time to listen to your spiel.

I've observed you, Lyra, speaking explicitly about taking advantage of weak people, in multiple mediums. I'm not inclined to cut you, or Podlair a break. No one should be.
 

EyeSeeCold

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I can't believe they are still going with this, it does seem more ridiculous but at the same time more legit with the momentum they have(but if it's a cult that's the whole point).

Honestly I just think that energy is being wasted on more obscure pseudoscience instead of going towards actual transparent scientific inquiry.

By the way, he looked better with his hair down...just saying.. :phear:
 

Jennywocky

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By the way, he looked better with his hair down...just saying.. :phear:

I see... so if you're gonna be a "rock star," hair is more important than science. :D

Going on camera is actually really hard. I'm not happy with how I come across, and I know I've made lots of mistakes and I'm not as good or strong a person as I'd want to be before putting myself up for the type of criticism that's going on in this thread. But we're all doing the best we can.

We feel what we have to say is very important, and so there is a tendency to extremity in our presentation, and perhaps this doesn't always come off right given that we don't have a large budget or professional marketers. But we really are trying our best to do what seems right.

We really have put a lot out there that nobody's challenged or dealt with as seriously as it deserves. It's been discovered, the way to understand it's been presented. Surely that deserves a little more attention and credit than whatever it is about our imperfections it's easy to ridicule? Especially by anonymous voices who aren't putting themselves out there, opening themselves up to, the same kind of flak. It's not like what we have to do is fun or easy in many of its aspects, and it's not an ego thing. It's a hard task based on an analysis of the present situation and we need to psyche ourselves up and maintain a certain intensity and momentum to even carry on going with it. More than one of us has sacrificed profitable and comfortable career paths to do this, and most of us would rather not have to take the responsibilities we are, sacrifice what we are.

Essentially we feel this info is necessary to help people and alleviate a great amount of suffering, and have accepted that we're going to sacrifice our own comfort to make that happen. We panic. We want to stop. We have doubts. But again and again seeing the thing actually play out whenever we go out into the world sets us back on course. So we do the best we can, and it would be really great if people who had suggestions and skills that would help us do it better understood why we're motivated and then helped. Instead of just sniping at us from the comfort of the uninvested, anonymous sidelines.

I don't think we deserve this kind of reaction.

That was a pretty honest post.

So here is a question: Why such the large sacrifice? What makes this pursuit SO important and special to you, that it is worth sacrifice your career and (with some) your dignity, doing something you don't even sometimes feel comfortable doing or skilled at doing in some ways, to borrow your own words on the matter?

In case it is not obvious, this is a serious question, not sarcasm. I honestly would like to hear more about what you value about it and what inspires you to select and then invest yourself in this particular idea. What makes this such a passionate, risk-worthy life quest for you?
 

Melkor

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Erp.

Humans flailing about in their roundabout machinations looking for some sort of fleeting meaning and rhythm to their actions while huddling up to a closed group mind.

It's sad really...
 

Lyra

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Hi Jennywocky,

Thanks for the sincere inquiry.

For me, I've always been searching for a more human and empowering and kind framework within which we all conceive of ourselves and rear our young. My experiences when younger suggested to me that no really healthy conception of human beings could be producing the kinds of interactions I observed, was subject to, and saw others broken by. I always sensed dimly that there was more to people than what they formed themselves into, came to believe that they were, as they aged and were subject again and again to the pressures people are widely subject to.

I was very embittered in my searching, and the huge sense of alienation I felt from what I was expected as a 'person' to be, from the patterns of behaviour presented as acceptable, gravitated towards extreme solutions. And to viewing people who I felt were overly credulous with regards to that which I rejected as robots-- literally, programmed robots unaware of their own actions and nature-- who were all just programming anyway. And who I could and should try to either program towards better ends or somehow deprogram.

This is an experience common amongst Nai'alpha, and Nai'xyy in particular. Which gets to the point. For me Pod'Lair's understanding of the actual make-up of the human tribe, when studied via its form of People Reading, provides a far more human, useful, and compassionate alternative to and answer to the agony about the state of things and my fellow humans that formerly led me deep into the occult and various grandiose but ultimately futile plans I'd hatched. It helps me understand others for what they are, the beautiful and useful role they can play, and much of why I experienced the patterns of relation in my life that I have. I can actually see the memes messing with people's ideas of themselves that I only dimly sensed before. I can actually see people's misunderstandings of themselves and others. And I can see how much wasted energy is poured into that.

I can also see how a society in which this was all just known, beyond the current stage, beyond whatever we're having to do now to make it known-- where it was just known-- would have avoided so much of what I've all my life been fighting against. And would have a far deeper and-- this is the important thing-- truer conception of what a human is that the lost and damaged and downtrodden could navigate by.

Pod'Lair, to me, understands and presents-- and I'm really not recruiting or preaching here, just answering your question-- a vision of what humans collectively are and what a human individually is that is firstly right and secondly deeply enriching. Because we are more than we currently think we are. The reason I choose it and not another model is becuase I think it is true and has the evidence to back that up.

That's the basis of it. Why I'm involved. I've always known that whatever my failings it's my duty to leave a kinder and wiser world for future others like those I've cared about and seen damaged in this one. My involvement with Pod'Lair is a result of an analysis of how that can be achieved, based upon People Reading and the implications it suggested to me personally. I was involved in PHY with Auburn before it, and many other projects and schemes before and alongside that, but to me Pod'Lair is simply the thing we need to get it together and be kinder and more knowledgeable about, and towards, each other at this stage in our evolution a a conscious and compassionate species-- or one which seeks to be.

I see... so if you're gonna be a "rock star," hair is more important than science. :D



That was a pretty honest post.

So here is a question: Why such the large sacrifice? What makes this pursuit SO important and special to you, that it is worth sacrifice your career and (with some) your dignity, doing something you don't even sometimes feel comfortable doing or skilled at doing in some ways, to borrow your own words on the matter?

In case it is not obvious, this is a serious question, not sarcasm. I honestly would like to hear more about what you value about it and what inspires you to select and then invest yourself in this particular idea. What makes this such a passionate, risk-worthy life quest for you?
 

Lyra

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Erp.

Humans flailing about in their roundabout machinations looking for some sort of fleeting meaning and rhythm to their actions while huddling up to a closed group mind.

It's sad really...

I don't think that this is fair, really. With Pod'Lair I think there's an actual pattern which can be traced in experience and which enables us to navigate that experience more effectively in accordance with our desires. Sure people will latch onto that pattern in the same way they do to so many other 'answers', but that doesn't change that it is and does have implications. Or that it's backed by falsifiable evidence. I don't think it's fair to reject a theory making factual and falsifiable claims-- which can't be communicated effectively through currently prevalent institutional/epistemological routes-- by this kind of pseudo psychoanalysis
 

Lyra

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Btw admins please let me know where the boundaries lie with regards to discussing this. I'm speaking on behalf of myself and my own reasons... and I intend to be respectful etc. and just speak honestly what I feel... but there is a history, so please do let me know.
 

ProxyAmenRa

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Btw admins please let me know where the boundaries lie with regards to discussing this. I'm speaking on behalf of myself and my own reasons... and I intend to be respectful etc. and just speak honestly what I feel... but there is a history, so please do let me know.

Are you the same person who was an old fat man who was pretending to be a pubescent girl and was complaining about the bifurcation of sex in society? The whole 'I am not a doll' thing?
 

Lyra

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lol. I wasn't an old fat man, no. I was exploring artistic avenues, yes.
 

ProxyAmenRa

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lol. I wasn't an old fat man, no. I was exploring artistic avenues, yes.

:slashnew:

Do you generally pretend to be a pubescent girl when exploring artistic avenues? I am just wondering.

:D
 

Lyra

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No, I 'pretended' to be several different characters. Like a novel-- one author, different characters. This is kind of distracting, though.
 

Auburn

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As Adaire said..

I presume the bad design is obvious to some of you and you're being intentionally.... retarded and ridiculous. None of the possible intentions for doing so are benign. (...) If you wanted people to hear and understand your content, this is the exact opposite of what you'd do. It's purposely obfuscated, and in a very obvious manner.
There are ways to still keep things serious & not lose sight of the importance of these ideas - while not presenting it in a way that cheapens it or distracts from the content via flamboyant effects.

Part of being serious about wanting to change humanity is knowing the means for how to accomplish it. Now I know that Pod'lair thinks they're doing just the opposite... and that the form/image they've chosen is itself rightly designed to be what the world needs the form to be, in order to accomplish its aim. And I'm not a marketing expert either, but I do doubt this is true, and the facts seem to disagree too.

Of hundreds of forms it could take, it's taken the one it has because -- and this has been admitted -- the leader has a certain affinity for certain fantasies (mmorpgs, etc). But I would find it more 'heroic' to put aside one's personal tastes and give it a form that is mathematically designed to optimize reception while having minimal or no sacrifice to the integrity of the content.

The desire to indulge Thomas is what is leading these efforts to have so much energy-loss. Sure, some of it gets through and some people are absorbed, but so many videos (dozens) don't have more than 50 views. Videos which I'm sure took a lot of effort.

All that said, I've endured through the (what i think is) bad presentation and watched several of their videos and quite appreciate a lot of the content. If I had to say, I would say I'm some 40% ok with podlair, and am 60% in protest to them.

Ironically, the protest I have against it are even eloquently explained in the Zai Power Flow video -- and why it is that I sense "imperfection" and get a bad feel from it. =P

@ thread title - Ick. Srsly guys. This has become a very sad forum prejudice. Not too different from picking on the 'different' kid at school every time you look at him. "Hur dur, look it's podlair being podlair again, lets point and facepalm." Yea, no.
 

Words

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I presume the bad design is obvious to some of you and you're being intentionally.... retarded and ridiculous. None of the possible intentions for doing so are benign. This 'image' is, imo, designed to attract/weed out gullible and stupid prey. You're looking for mooks.
Hear, hear.


---

Intentions aside, I think the problems of Pod'lair is a good example of what I believe to be the problems of being limited to "Ni-Se" thinking. The ideas and the ways of expression is geared towards being unintuitive. It is self-appeasingly mystified. There is no attempt at all at trying to be simple. There's just mumbo-jumbo. There's no transition of the abstract to the concrete/intuitive. There is no Si-Ne. There's no exactitude. There's no clarity. There's no quantification, although you don't necessarily need to have numbers in order to be simple. The reality that you might be describing, and most of the reality that anyone would probably describe CAN be simplified and made intuitive. Everything can be perceived in terms of Si-Ne. It can be related and reduced to simple, intuitive concepts. Everything can be simple. If you care about attracting the public or perhaps more "gullible and stupid prey", then do realize that most people are Si-Ne and understand things that way. Course, by then, you would be treading on my battleground. There would be logical arguments and erroneous equations to trample over.

Honestly I just think that energy is being wasted on more obscure pseudoscience instead of going towards actual transparent scientific inquiry.

Transparency. Yes, that's it.
 

Lyra

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The synomnia is actually a very useful learning tool...

I think it might be helpful to view it in those terms. Pod'Lair, with all of its associations and colours and its metaphorical, interpretive language, forms a kind of Mandala. That Mandala is actually a whole level of the teaching system-- hidden in plain sight--which enables it to be grasped on a far deeper and far faster level if you run with it.

As I said before, we'd appreciate the help of anyone with advanced graphic design skills who could make the teaching system look aesthetically beautiful, but as it stands right now it's enough to get the concepts across. We have a lot to communicate, a tight schedule, and limited resources. Sincere people can get it from what we've put out, and the many-leveled interpretive system actually contains a large part of the useful info.

Getting it requires some good faith on the part of the newcomer, and it requires an ability to transcend unconsidered, visceral reaction against something just because it is unfamiliar or seems personally displeasing for whatever reason. That's ok. We're in this for the sorts of people who actually desire to understand enough to consciously challenge those sorts of reactions in themselves. (Which is a principle actually used by many of the smarter occult societies, btw, who scatter beautiful or game-changing info amidst blinds and tests designed to weed out the insincere, who would waste resources or corrupt purity of intent within the group. The idea is to get the people who want truth, not people who want to be around those who seem this or that way. Not that Pod'Lair does that deliberately, but I wouldn't be averse to that kind of effect, which I have been familiar with engineering before, if it happened incidentally). What we want is a hardcore of dedicated seekers. It really won't take that many, given the kinds of energy people throw into this when they get it. Such people with the info we have will be enough of an example, enough of a totally unprecedented form of human organisation and momentum, that current concerns about aesthetics etc. will be just a footnote in the history of the process that led to their genesis.
 

snafupants

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Sincere people can get it from what we've put out, and the many-leveled interpretive system actually contains a large part of the useful info.

You appear to be confusing sincerity and gullibility. ;)
 
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You appear to be confusing sincerity and gullibility. ;)

Gullible people are less likely to remodel, let alone provide well-canvassed justifications for such remodeling.

If there is such a thing as gullibility, then it would surely exist within those that are unwilling to canvass evidence due to how "persuasive" and "believable" the contradictory understandings of other sources seemed to come off as.
 
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I read part of that post but why should you doubt that gullibility exists?!

That itself sounds gullible. :D

I meant beyond the arbitrary understanding of what gullibility means.

Oh, yes, and I'm sure somebody must have told me that gullibility doesn't exist.
 

Words

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The synomnia is actually a very useful learning tool...

I think it might be helpful to view it in those terms. Pod'Lair, with all of its associations and colours and its metaphorical, interpretive language, forms a kind of Mandala. That Mandala is actually a whole level of the teaching system-- hidden in plain sight--which enables it to be grasped on a far deeper and far faster level if you run with it.

In other words, framing. This is likemoving the goalpost. Creating your own context is like creating your own rules. Logic is pushed aside for dogma. And anything that occurs outside of the only Fair Arena, of Logic , is well... bullshit. Really, the only way to appear genuine is to get rid of the mysticism(of the bullshit really) entirely.
 
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In other words, framing. This is Moving the Goalpost. Creating your own context is like creating your own rules. Logic is pushed aside for dogma. And anything that occurs outside of the only Fair Arena, of Logic , is well... bullshit. Really, the only way to appear genuine is to get rid of the mysticism(of the bullshit really) entirely.

What mysticism? I've got links. Tell me what you want to be directed towards.

Human nature has not been previously canvassed in the context of logical thought effectively as people have not discovered human math. Pod'lair has made this unprecedent discovery. And even if there was an alternative that could be cross-contextualized to provide some supposed logical contradiction to pod'lair, it may as well be tested through the scientific and objective methodology that is mojo reading. If there was any contradiction, then it would surface. After finding a supposed contradiction in this way, you could carry on with all of the logical thought that you desire and essentially debunk part of the model. Nobody has found a contradiction or inconsistency thus far, so the model remains paramount among all current and past understandings of the fundamental nature of humans.

These essential discoveries have been absent from the understandings of humans since the very beginning of human existence, and that has ultimately been and continues to be a missed opportunity for them. Pod'lair intends to fix and reconcile this problem and resolve the stupidity that has been enveloping humans for so long.
 

Lyra

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We have provided in that arena, Words. The evidence I keep talking about-- either certain cues only manifest in the patterns we claim they do or they don't. Either there are 16 very precise conflagrations with precise and patterned relationships or there aren't. There is some lens-training in this but it certainly can't be fairly rejected as just twisting the info-- the most obvious cues we've presented leave very little ambiguity or room for evidence twisting.

What you're saying is that, having done that, we should then replicate currently prevalent culture, teaching methods and modes of interaction in order to replicate the semblance of respectability/authority as understood by those not in a position to evaluate its actuality. *That* is a request too far.
 

Moocow

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What you're saying is that, having done that, we should then replicate currently prevalent culture, teaching methods and modes of interaction in order to replicate the semblance of respectability/authority as understood by those not in a position to evaluate its actuality. *That* is a request too far.

I suppose this is what science must look like to someone who doesn't understand the reasons for using it. I believe we have a senior member who has argued in some 5000 posts the case you are trying to make and only frustrated himself in the process.
The simple answer is that scientific method reveals and transcends the limitations of intuition. If it didn't, we might still, with a little lens-training, believe that the stars all rotate around us.
 

Lyra

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Well, I actually spend most of my time studying the Logic & The Philosophy of Science at the department where most of the currently prevalent folk-theory of it originated, so I'd say I'm fairly familiar with the various reasons put forth throughout the Method's history. That's not an argument from authority-- just a rejection of your implication that I'm not familiar with your postulated 'reasons'.

The paramaters within which experimental psychology currently functions are largely an attempt to ape the success of an apparently similar research program in the physical sciences, but without enough hold upon core elements/constituents whose relationship can be precisely theorised about. DNA and Neurology are held up as the light at the end of the tunnel that will change this situation, but ultimately what we get are data + unjustified assumptions in and data + unjustified assumptions out without anything that in essence resembles the theoretical/elemental precision of Physics. Rejection of these assumptions tends to be lumped in with rejection of the scientific project-- with the 'they haven't figured it out yet so God did it' or 'science can't do subjective experience' crowd. Pod'Lair re-adjusts the lens through which these elements are looked for, and in doing so actually presents precise constituents that can be accurately and precisely theorised about of the kind that behavioral sciences so desire. But it cannot present this re-adjustment through the language of their current research program, which is sure about how it's going to get where it seeks to go without having made much genuine progress towards getting there.

The idea that the Scientific Method transcends the limitations of intuition is also total bunk. Sure, it hones it and provides safeguards against the traps it tends to fall into, but you clearly haven't really thought about what goes on at the heights and intersections of mathematics and physics, or about how those heights relate to other Science's self-images.

The lens-training you're criticising also isn't in a strictly different category from the prerequisite training in mathematics or adopting certain working assumptions which is involved in a Scientific education. The point is whether the research program yields predictive results, which, in the case of Reading, it most certainly does, and to a far greater degree than competing research programs enshrined in institutionalized behavioral sciences and their requirements of presentation.

Here's a basic course: there are 16 configurations, each of which manifests a distinct conflagration of cues in an identifiable pattern. These cues are associated with very strict and distinct kinds of behavioural orientation or activity. They are also composed of 8 different constituent patterns which can be identified in action across the 16 configurations. Whether a person is energised or de-energised, getting momentum or shutting them down, can also be tangibly observed. And all of these tangible patterns/cues can be observed in real time and in interaction with/in relation to what an individual is saying or doing. Certain patterns cannot and do not manifest in certain individuals, and those individuals will be the ones which our theory predicts said cues cannot and will not manifest in. Certain cues can, will, and must manifest in certain individuals as they become more animated and tangibly energised, and those individuals will be the ones which our theory predicts. Certain sets of cues will never manifest together, and our theory predicts that as well. As well as many other things, many of them very tangibly and clearly laid out in terms of very simple and clear cues that even a dull-witted individual could grasp with some basic effort.

Find an individual in which this theory does not apply, and that would be a form of falsification. We make precise claims. We make falsifiable claims. You are the one using psuedo-scientific rhetoric to avoid or discredit that evidence, and that is an abuse of the spirit of the scientific method. Observing this basic pattern is a lens-reorientation, and it requires looking at the problem in a certain way, engaging certain faculties-- just as a mathematical or experimental problem does. From here, you can catch up to speed with implications. The point, though, is that this basic adoption of a suitable perspective-- a lens, a ressearch program, an instrument (microscopes have *lenses*, try looking up what they did for scientific progress)-- yields predictive results on a scale and with an accuracy that formerly assumed lenses do not and cannot. In Lakatosian/'Scientific' terms, this makes it truer.

In Kuhnian terms, it is no surprise that a paradigm shift on this scale would run up against institutional hierarchies and folk expectations like Pod'Lair does. Give the huge scale of the re-orientation involved, it's no surprise how fringe it is now and will remain for a time. The difficulty in behavioral sciences, especially, is that data/assumptions/theories are so loose that the kind of explosive falsification made possible by Physics' precision isn't expected or possible within current structures. That explosively precise context requires creation, aided by a certain clarity of focus and caliber of an elemental theory-- Pod'Lair is that theory. It has to start from the outside. Another difficulty is that Physics could at least be cordoned off away from all the terrible shit that illumination of how things are actually working would reveal about people in power/with a vested interest-- Catholicism etc. fell far, but relatively isomorphic power structures were quite immune to it. With P'L that ain't and won't be so, and those structures live in your minds. That's how they work. We're up against a lot.

I suppose this is what science must look like to someone who doesn't understand the reasons for using it. I believe we have a senior member who has argued in some 5000 posts the case you are trying to make and only frustrated himself in the process.
The simple answer is that scientific method reveals and transcends the limitations of intuition. If it didn't, we might still, with a little lens-training, believe that the stars all rotate around us.
 

snafupants

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The simple answer is that scientific method reveals and transcends the limitations of intuition. If it didn't, we might still, with a little lens-training, believe that the stars all rotate around us.

@Moocow

Interesting. While I agree that adherence to the scientific method ideally and empirically in/validates initial surmises or intuitions, the persistently inquiring intuition shouldn't be dismissed simply because it isn't seen at the end of the conjecturing and refuting empirical process. Doing so would be like downplaying or slandering Tiger Woods' father - while Earl Woods didn't win the 1997 Masters for Tiger, perhaps Earl was responsible for starting the winning process, creating that spark in Tiger, much like intuition is for scientific breakthroughs. I see scientific observation and intuition on the same continuum - the order is intuition, conjecturing and refuting, and cementing of new knowledge.
 

Moocow

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To preface this @Lyra, I have no reason to suspect you are being more sincere now than you have in past posts and the pod'lair character is not difficult to mimic. Don't be offended if I just stop replying because your posts begin to look too identically redundant with its past advocates. As I understand it, the aspect in question is its esotericism, but I've had a couple drinks and your sheer volume is beginning to make it difficult to keep track of what I'm replying to. I fear your post is still growing as I type this. It brings back irritable memories.

heights and intersections of mathematics and physics, or about how those heights relate to other Science's self-images.
Your wording has fallen off the rails here and I can only guess what you're trying to say.

The lens-training you're criticising also isn't in a strictly different category from the prerequisite training in mathematics or adopting certain working assumptions which is involved in a Scientific education. The point is whether the research program yields predictive results, which, in the case of Reading, it most certainly does, and to a far greater degree than competing research programs enshrined in institutionalized behavioral sciences and their requirements of presentation.
Can you show me any of these institutionalized research programs, competing for the same goals as pod'lair?

Here's a basic course ......... catch up to speed with implications.
First of all I think you must mean "configuration" and not conflagration.
mediumqz.jpg

Freudian slip?

I don't think what you've described is different, in any specific, meaningful way, from Jung's cognitive function model which I'm more than happy to discuss the implications of. I haven't read much of Jung because like Pod'Lair I find his writing unbearable.
Regardless, vast implications follow quickly from simply defining key dichotomies in the way information flows in and out of the brain.

In fact socionics, which like MBTI is based on that model, has written a few oddly predictive articles too!
Found here: http://www.socionics.com/rel/rel.htm

I'm all in favor of using a framework to define cognitive functions (which are by the way, not at all alien to the cognitive sciences) so that the relationships between certain behaviors can be better understood. That is the essence of this so called lens-adjustment of yours. It is the sorting of information around prominent dichotomies and using basic logic to make predictions about the end behavior. It's using a combination of cognitive functions to understand cognitive functions. So what happens when someone doesn't use the functions involved in internal logic?

I should have written my original post differently: What Words is talking about is participation in the scientific community. How is that asking too much, and what have any of the pod'lair team to show for their attempts to even try, or learn what participation entails?

So none of this really answers why the esotericism is deemed so necessary. Nothing the P'Ls have said about what they do strays from my own internal logic of cognitive functions, which can be described in english.
 

Moocow

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@Moocow

Interesting. While I agree that adherence to the scientific method ideally and empirically in/validates initial surmises or intuitions, the persistently inquiring intuition shouldn't be dismissed simply because it isn't seen at the end of the conjecturing and refuting empirical process. Doing so would be like downplaying or slandering Tiger Woods' father - while Earl Woods didn't win the 1997 Masters for Tiger, perhaps Earl was responsible for starting the winning process, creating that spark in Tiger, much like intuition is for scientific breakthroughs. I see scientific observation and intuition on the same continuum - the order is intuition, conjecturing and refuting, and cementing of new knowledge.

That's fine. I don't think getting a messianic complex and speaking in tongues is a necessary part of the continuum though I'm sure it hasn't always been exclusive.
 

snafupants

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It's questionable whether without MBTI, Socionics, and Enneagram the Pod'Lair system would look anything like it does. So, because the Pod'Lair architecture has so much unattributed cribbed material from bitterly opposed rival systems, folks should withhold their imprimaturs. I'm just generally disconcerted with the overlap between Jung's eight cognitive functions and Pod'lair alongside the pervasive self-important ridiculousness of Pod'Lair practitioners. The cultish nomenclature, coupled with the bitchy attitude, is repellant. In the first three minutes of this video, another confused lady attempts to discount and distance herself from MBTI - the apparent source material for Pod'Lair - while loading up the video with important-sounding but ultimately meaningless or redundant verbiage. Pod'Lair is what would presumably accrue if some phrenologist met a snake oil salesman.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPdCB3J570g&feature=g-all-lik
 

Lyra

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Moocow, your post displays so little awareness of what we actually do that it's not worth responding to at length. You're postulating some 'esotericism' relevant to the claim being made, which is far too vague for me to actually combat. It, along with your whole post, seems to be an ill-defined excuse to reject without due consideration. There's no need for me to try and make sense your basic idea of what Pod'Lair is under such circumstances.
 

EyeSeeCold

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It's questionable whether without MBTI, Socionics, and Enneagram the Pod'Lair system would look anything like it does.

There's clear evidence linking Pod'lair terminology to MBTI, besides the ridiculously obvious names. The stubborn denial of an MBTI/Jungian foundation is what you would except from a cult, as it tries to pass off an old concept as something groundbreaking and progressive, with more emphasis on theatrics than substance.
 

Lyra

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No denial of what common ground there is, but epistemogically Pod'Lair is in a different category. It demonstrates falsifiably what before was confined to the realm of often inaccurate conjecture, and fundamentally changes the scope and nature of our understanding of that phenomenon in the process. It also reveals universal and fatal methodological errors in all conceptions and applications of theories relating to that phenomenon until now.

MBTI, Socionics, JCF, etc. etc. are all largely ineffective in the hands of their experts and impotent to really empower and enlighten their general users. Pod'Lair is in actuality a long way beyond where they are or ever have been. People who have looked into it with any depth-- even those who rejected it or left for some other reason-- have inevitably come to recognise this.
 

Jennywocky

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Sigh. I liked it better when Lyra was just talking about why she valued Pod'Lair.

...Everything since I logged out yesterday just comes across as an overwrought sales pitch. :( And that's one of the problems, it's just overdone -- kind of like the promotion of Obama in 2008 as the next Messiah figure.
 

snafupants

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It also reveals universal and fatal methodological errors in all conceptions and applications of theories relating to that phenomenon until now.

That's the kind of unwarranted grandiosity and self-importance I'm talking about. :rolleyes:
The stubborn denial of an MBTI/Jungian foundation is what you would except from a cult, as it tries to pass off an old concept as something groundbreaking and progressive, with more emphasis on theatrics than substance.

You must not have heard about Pod'Lair's "forensic, irrefutable evidence." :D

Wait, allow me to overdub some cheesy electronic music and Scanner Darkly graphics.
 

Moocow

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Moocow, your post displays so little awareness of what we actually do that it's not worth responding to at length. You're postulating some 'esotericism' relevant to the claim being made, which is far too vague for me to actually combat. It, along with your whole post, seems to be an ill-defined excuse to reject without due consideration. There's no need for me to try and make sense your basic idea of what Pod'Lair is under such circumstances.

Well I'm not intoxicated now so I'll try to sum it up: You guys rip off Jung's functions and distance yourself from proper science. You only speak in general terms about what "science" does or doesn't do because you don't know.
Also jesus christ I'm sorry I couldn't be bothered to understand Pod'Lair better through it's massive, bitchy front page and pushy, inarticulate salesfolk. Not just that it utterly resembles Jung's cognitive functions in every functional regard; it's easy to just gurgle up more "you just don't understand" as a blanket retort like teenagers fighting with their parents.

It really just looks like PodLings aren't content to pursue anything unless it's theatrical and messianic. That is the distinguishing criteria. Regardless of what you say you've studied I've yet to see any real awareness of scientific history or present theory in the field of cognition. You wouldn't have time to find out anyways if you were zealously dedicated to your new cult.

I see:
-Messianic leader
-Blanket generalizations and straw men to create the illusion of some enlightened cause.
-Rambling, rhetorical sales pitches which just get longer the more one humors them.

Since you have turned your nose up and ignored my questions, you have now also made yourself indistinct from the other Pod'Lair salespeople that have come here. Good luck t'ya.
 

BigApplePi

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Hi Adymus. Don't worry I don't expect you to read this. I'm just giving some reactions. I'm unable to read the technicals of what yer talking about, but that's okay. If you want to be a specialist on visual people reading and can do it well, the best of luck to you. Your presentation reminds me of buying the best computer. IBM used to wait until the best new computers got their bugs worked out before they marketed their own in mass so they could put out the 2nd best computers and not have to pay the price of being 1st. Same here. If you can get past the flaws in your presentation and become accepted, I will be patient and wait to look at your stuff later.

Your put down if MBTI is suspicious. It has been around for some time and is not visual but still is accepted. Must we be one hundred percent accurate here? You present as if you are. If it were me, I would give MBTI credit and just say you are building on it in a new way.

If I want to think about what a person is like, I don't always have a video of them in front of me.

Left in my mind is you Adymus are having fun doing this reading. Are you accurate? Scientific? Ask about this: http://physiognomy.me/jung/ and tell me what is simpler and just as accurate. Simplicity counts. Science counts.

Another thing Adymus. In my conversations with you, there are some unfinished loose threads. I've thought about it, have my own theory, but haven't written anything. Too bad.
 

BigApplePi

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Hi Puffy. The word, "cult" is not in my vocabulary. I think of groups. Groups can be open or closed. At first glance I like the open ones. But what about the closed ones? Is there something insecure about them? Can't be helped. A group is closed in an attempt at self-definition or an attempt to make it strong. I mentioned in a response to Adymus I didn't feel favorably to a put down of MBTI. That brings on separation. Rather there should be a building on. Well closed groups are still a mystery to me. Too bad.
 

BigApplePi

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Adymus Falling/Rising?

Okay guys and gals. I am reminded this is an INTP bulletin board frequented by ... ahem ... INTPs. If I have this right, INTPs like certain things and don't like others. Are there not quite a few threads in this Forum discussing this and other types? Are not every one of those 15 other types not legitimate people types even though not necessarily liked? We (me) find it difficult to get along with some types. I find this fascinating. Why what is going on? Why am I so limited I am uncomfortable with the way some people present themselves? Is it them or me?

Well I'm ready to accept there are not only different people types but that they are prone to present themselves differently. I give that to Pod'Lair. Look at what Words said here as a clue:
Intentions aside, I think the problems of Pod'lair is a good example of what I believe to be the problems of being limited to "Ni-Se" thinking. The ideas and the ways of expression is geared towards being unintuitive. It is self-appeasingly mystified. There is no attempt at all at trying to be simple. There's just mumbo-jumbo. There's no transition of the abstract to the concrete/intuitive. There is no Si-Ne. There's no exactitude. There's no clarity. There's no quantification, although you don't necessarily need to have numbers in order to be simple. The reality that you might be describing, and most of the reality that anyone would probably describe CAN be simplified and made intuitive. Everything can be perceived in terms of Si-Ne. It can be related and reduced to simple, intuitive concepts. Everything can be simple. If you care about attracting the public or perhaps more "gullible and stupid prey", then do realize that most people are Si-Ne and understand things that way. Course, by then, you would be treading on my battleground. There would be logical arguments and erroneous equations to trample over.

Transparency. Yes, that's it.
I'm not going to parse this entire post of Words, just comment. I see no reason in the world why a presentation can't have Ni behind it if it wants to. That's them. If they do it, it IS like a cult. To learn it one has to immerse oneself in it ... like swimming. Would you like to hear a lecture on how to swim to learn swimming? Would you like to learn a foreign language without hearing it? I think not. That's apparently the Pod'Lair approach.

Not to an INTP's liking, but let's recognize this. Pod'Lair is not a top-down rational approach. It presents itself and you have to run with it and test the waters. Maybe find out it's no good, but maybe not. I say look at it, listen to the critics (INTPs are good critics) and take the positive. Clarity and quantification are not the first impressions here. "Mumbo-jumbo" is the first impression. Jargon is not necessarily mumbo-jumbo. My reaction to Pod'Lair's leader is like some other INTP's: I feel sick to my stomach. But to hell with my feelings. As an INTP, I go with my thinking, not my feelings.
 

Architect

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OK let's try to understand this old Pod'Lair a little bit by looking at the INTP equivalent, the Zai'nyy (correct?). Ignoring the visual theory for the moment let's concentrate on what is said here.
Adaptive Subjective Logic-Based Discernment
OK, I read the definitions below on that page, but this doesn't tell me anything more than what I get from MBTI. Going further (a few pages down)

It answers two of the Considerations of the psyche, in this case Subjectivity (Inner World Focus) and Discernment (Making Decisions based on certain criteria) ...

Clarity & Lucidity, Precision & Accuracy, Dispassion & Purity

* Diagnostics & Experimentation, Principle Understanding & Customizing, Situational Logic & Analysis

* Refining & Sharpening, Optimizing & Perfecting, Calibrating & Rectifying
...
For example, this Signal may be read by some as Self-Assured, Tactical, and Hardcore
OK cutting through all the verbiage this seems to me to be the core of the Zai description. This seems to correspond to Ti. So the PL Zai Source Power is more or less equivalent to the MBTI Ti Dominant function. True or false?

@Lyra please confirm what I'm trying to figure out here. Please add to this description, or we can move on to the Tandem power next. You can see I'm trying to take one example and dissect it enough to understand.

You might see where I'm leading. First I'm trying to understand what the Zai Source Power is. Second, why is that more empowering than understanding Ti and it's functional stack relationships?
 
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