... such sweet sorrow

[Jennywocky]

I never ever do this anywhere, but I suppose there is a first time for anyone to act like an immature juvenile forum newbie and leave in a huff.

(Actually, I can't even do that if I tried, this is going to be far more measured. Sigh. I just can't really lash out at people that effectively, especially since I like many of you as people.)

...Since we don't have a goodbye forum, I'll post this in a welcome/intro thread and walk out backwards, if that helps.

I keep leaving here, then coming back.
I have a love/hate relationship with this place.
I love LoR to death, and there are certain posters here I highly respect, so I just miss reading their posts when I'm not here.

I also respect the depth of thought I often see here, and it's nice to deal with INTP types who don't all just bust on religion all the time as a kneejerk reaction. Despite my intellectual agnosticism, I do not dismiss spiritual experience and posses core spiritual values myself. There are many beautiful people here with many beautiful beliefs and there's usually a decent level of exchange in the discussion of those issues. (Not all, but the majority.)

Every time I leave and then come back a few months later, I have a few people tell me how much they missed me and my ideas. This always surprises the hell out of me. Pretty much since the onset of my joining, I have felt like this is a tightly knit community... but also that often the newcomers are left on the outside. The people who are in the community usually just banter among themselves and skip over a lot of posts of newcomers who were trying to engage the issues. After awhile, people will shut up and leave or pull back on their interaction.

(Note: I don't think this is a purposeful shunning in the least, I just think it's typical INTP social un-awareness coupled with the intensely introverted nature of the forum.) I feel like this forum is basically an introvert's safe little hidey-hole from the outside world, with people hunkered within; I walk through the coffee shop and see everyone already paired up at tables and happy in their own microcosm, and even if I sit at a table here and there and try to participate, the conversation never really opens up or becomes inclusive. (This is okay, no one is ever obligated to make room at the table for one more, but it does mean that people will just go to another coffee shop until they find a place they belong.)

This type of introversion was very pronounced during the "trolling" mess a number of months ago, where the forum actually got shut down for a bit but before all that, I was hearing just some absolutely crazy ideas like creating a forum within a forum and hiding in it and leaving the rest to the trolls. (!?) The issue here again is the extreme introversion and then the uncertainty of how to deal with people in that social-context level... just a lot of interrelational fear and/or inexperience.

The solution should have been simple -- staff boots the trolls whether or not they can "justify it" perfectly to the trolls, in order to protect the other posters, and the other posters meanwhile put the trolls on ignore -- but I think the nature of the community here just makes it extremely vulnerable to anyone who trolls. (With the situation earlier, where newcomers end up getting shunned just because they're new, there's no long-term issues because the newcomers are nice and so they don't create a fuss, they either lurk or go elsewhere; but the trolls meanwhile run like wolves among the flock in a situation like this and create havoc and there is no way to defend against it because the individual people don't know what to do or have the assertiveness to kick wolf-butt.)

I also tend to find people in this protective environment to be overly solemn and take themselves far too seriously. There is some momentary goofiness, but in general just... the delicacy of how things have to be handled is a very different experience for me on an INTP forum. again, it's like the forum has become a library and museum piece, so there can't be many loud noises, there can't be any sort of joking or horseplay (except for very sedate, mild things), there's just a seriousness about not having one's private personal atmosphere disturbed, you never know when you'll become too loud and suddenly get someone irked. I'm an introvert too, and I'm very sensitive to people's needs and feelings but... I don't much enjoy that sort of environment long-term.

I've been back for a bit again, but today I'm just pissed about one poster's comments in the now-closed "fake Trolling" thread. Pretty much all the comments were so OBVIOUSLY jokes, that I took the first post as a joke as well and thought it simply a remarkable example of emulating a troll. After the second post that presumably ended up getting the thread closed, I guess I am rethinking that and perhaps the whole thing was serious. If it was serious, then what he wrote there is exactly what I have not liked about this forum and why I leave despite having wanted to fit in; the environment at its most negative is overly protective, mostly self-indulgent, and weak/hypersensitive.

(Of course, if it was not serious, then I suppose it's a good thing the thread was closed since I did end up crying over it... And I'm not saying that to win pity in the least, I was just surprised I took it that badly... my point is that it's yet another sign of how things are all or nothing here, either people roll over and let themselves be kicked repeatedly, or they tend to fly completely off the handle inappropriately and just go way over the top.)

Bottom-line is (and it's so funny to me, because on other forums I'm at, people have accused me of being an F, or too delicate, or too kind) I keep coming and going because I wanted to make this forum work but don't feel like I really fit the atmosphere here. I'm either walking on eggshells so that the "library will not be disturbed" and meanwhile watching other people not say what needs to be said in a particular situation; or I'm putting myself out there and hearing crickets chirp afterward and feeling like an intrusion/interloper, which is not something I want to be.

And that is fine. On one level, I am cool about it -- every forum is different and has its own atmosphere, and if I do not fit in here, then I do not fit in. However, simultaneously, I see some of it as weakness on the part of the community style and if no one ever raises these observations, then nothing will ever get better... I wonder how many other people have had the experience I have had ... and the goal is also to see people become strong and healthy as individuals and a community. The next time a troll gets on this board, I would love to see individual members be able to take it in stride without either running for cover OR flipping out, and for administration to fairly quickly determine the intent and remove them.

So there you go, where I once again say something potentially disruptive without any idea of how it will be received. That seems to be my role here, I am gathering... the wandering catalyst. Meanwhile, it's probably best if I go again for awhile at least.

I'm sorry, I really think the world of a number of you, and even the people I'm frustrated with I actually do like as well; I never know how to say these things in the best way, so I'm afraid I will have to throw it out on the table and let y'all look at it yourselves and see what you think. if it just starts a conversation, then that is a good thing I guess.

Meanwhile, take care, be well, and all of that. I'll miss ya.

 

[Ashenstar]

*hugs*

Blessed be

 

[Toad]

Bye Bye Jenny. (I thought that person was joking too, till I saw his second post)

 

[Felan]

I wander up after a long walk and hands Jennywocky a small white four petalled flower saying, "I was walking and a bunch of these but this one was all alone. I thought beauty should be at home with beauty."

 

[preilemus]

well said

 

[Anthile]

Essentially, that whole troll issue was why I gave myself only a 3 on the "Do you think you belong here" thread. At this time I was very disappointed and frustrated by the overall reaction of this community. In short, I was disillusioned by the INTP intellect.
Not just that apparently many people fell for the trolls and found them cool, rebellious and whatnot, but also the "counter measures" that have been suggested by some older members were just plain insane (closing the forum forever was one of the more sane suggestions). And I was all like Those are rationals?. However, it took a lot of persuading and effort behind the scenes from my side to steer the forum into the "right" direction.


Jennywocky, I think we never talked to each other but I wish you good luck whatever and wherever you do or go.

 

[Cogwulf]

Sorry to see you go

 

[Auburn]

And I was all like Those are rationals?.

well, ^^;
i think the troll incident exposed one of our greatest weaknesses. It attacked us in areas where we possess little intelligence. Namely, it attacked our lack of emotional awareness (F), and our inability to take decisive/concrete action (J).

I do think INTPs are rationals, but they don't necessarily possess intelligence in every aspect of life. At least to me, it seems a bit harsh to look down on this personality type for a natural weakness. Plus, I honestly think that this experience helped a lot of members grow/develop in their understanding - and I doubt something like that would slide a second time.

I don't mean to say what happened was "right", but I think most of us realize it was not handled in the best manner, and have learned an important lesson from it. It's all part of growing as a community. At that time, people were talking about the community completely collapsing, yet it's still here.

Considering the nature of intps, it's quite intriguing to think we'd even form a community at all. I don't think we're doing all that bad. ^^; but that's just me..


@ Jenny - nyooo...
How will the atmosphere ever improve when all those who see it's flaws turn around and leave? Though you may not see it, you're also a catalyst for growth to several members here, myself included.

I know the feeling of posting something deep and not receiving replies from it. However, often times I find out later that people really did see them and it left an impact. Please don't be discouraged so easily..

 

[Da Blob]

May God be wi' ye

 

[Anthile]

I didn't mean INTPs in general but some specific persons (which I don't even remember at all).

 

[Nicholas A. A. E.]

Well, I'm new, so sorry I never got to know you. have fun out in RL.

 

[Kuu]

*is left speechless*


I will miss you occasional but much needed jesting.

Spoiler

(or is this a jest in itself, taken to an even higher level... made to emphasize and ridicule that whole tone of seriousness.... total MINDSCREW! damn you)

 

[Sugarpop]

Some thoughts in order of appearance

This forum reminds me of myself. It is a clown who has the audience going, but can't make the laughter stop as he hesitantly tries to say something true, something important. He likes the laughter and shallowness since any other face that could be presented to the world would entail an effort, but the laughter never stops and wears on him like a straitjacket.

How do we laugh and cry at the same time? I think this is our problem.

Time spent on this forum has decreased lately. Perhaps it is for the best.

We laugh, argue and make tentative connections until someone can't take it any more, tries to speak truth, and eventually there is silence.

 

[Kidege]

I've been back for a bit again, but today I'm just pissed about one poster's comments in the now-closed "fake Trolling" thread.
(...)
I wonder how many other people have had the experience I have had ...

I was disturbed by the post, but have no idea of how to adress it. I think the poster expressed something they've been thinking/feeling for a long time.

Edit: ^ with this I meant the basic opinions, not the personal attack against Jennywocky.

 

[fullerene]

I didn't see that thread, since it's so far down near the bottom of the forum (I don't usually get that far... plus I've been busy recently), but after going to read it, if I'd been there by the 2nd serious post I would've been rather pissed off. I didn't think you were out of line at all, and I totally would have thought it was a joke for that first post too. I wholeheartedly agree with kidege, that it sounded like the post was more of an explosion that built up over a long time, rather than anything personal towards you.

Cheese (since I can't really post in that thread anymore), as well as those who she hinted at/outright named who thought that this place was "full of fluff" and blamed everyone else (er... blamed whoever started that thread, at least) for contributing to it... on the off chance that that was, in fact, serious:

This is something an INTJ at personalitycafe posted about me shortly before I left. They had an "internet flame warriors" thread, and people were doing little cartoonish characters/descriptions of each other. It very deeply struck home inside me, but I think it applies to those who fit cheese's sentiment too.

Ennui only rouses himself from his torpor to cajole other Warriors to be more interesting - without, of course, ever contributing anything of interest himself. Ennui has limited weaponry at his disposal, but his majestic affectation of boredom provides an effective defense to attacks. When pressed in battle he will announce his intention of moving on to a more stimulating forum, but instead he will generally lurk quietly until the threat passes.


If the place is full of fluff, then fill it with not-fluff and don't blame everyone else (esp. not new people who just made a thread) for bringing it down.


If it wasn't serious, of course, then good job. It was a clever addition to the thread



Sorry to see you go, jenny. If we ever do decide to do that meetup-thing nearby, I'll track you down on your other forum and let you know when and where.

 

[Polaris]

I don't know you either Jennywocky, but have read your posts. I think it is a shame that someone who has so much to contribute should leave like this. Don't let this stuff get the better of you. It is hard to communicate without seeing someone's reactions and subtle expressions. There is a hell of a lot of room for misunderstanding, even with emoticons and all. I am genuinely sad to see you go, but hope you'll come back.

 

[cheese]

No no, this is nuts. Of course it wasn't serious. I'm one of the fluffiest, most useless members here. I think Sugarpop agrees.

Jenny, I really hope you don't go permanently. I hardly know you on an interpersonal level, but I've observed you and you're wise, tolerant, truly thoughtful and very treasured by the other members here. I think it would be a great shame if you left. Especially since the 'last straw' was a post meant completely in jest, which means it doesn't actually add any to the eggshells on the floor.

I think most people take themselves too seriously. I also don't really see the big deal with trolls, but that's something that causes more problems to the admin than me, so I can't fully appreciate the severity of their attacks. I like pretty much everyone here, and I think we could all benefit from relaxing a little.

I understand the analogy Sugarpop provided. I think this is something a lot of us have problems with. We're so scared of being irrationally emotional, or 'emo', that we never dare to express anything serious at all. It's quite intimdating and rather painful trying to walk the balance of truth between your lightness and heaviness. INTPc seems to overly favour the light, completely ostracising those who truly do need a little more care, and perhaps this forum leans too heavily towards the weighty.

I cited an example of this difficult balance I found interesting on the Face-banning thread. It was about Noddy, in one of his relatively rare attempts to be serious. There was a little difficulty with some posters responding to him with equal gravity, because the pattern of interaction with him had already been established.

I think what we really need is the willingness to humanise people, for their own sake; too often we see others simply in terms of how they can add to our own lives - they become mere stimuli instead of actual, multi-dimensional people. Basically we restrict our perceptions to the persona most often presented. We build up this internal model of the personality, and strain all new information through our restricted lens. This forces it awkwardly into the existing model instead of reconstructing it slightly to properly incorporate these new sides of a person we (only think we) 'already know'.

Everyone suffers from the lens effect, I think - but we can guard against it. Our greatest defence is simply open-mindedness - the ability to seriously consider that we might actually be wrong in our ideas or personal judgements. Don't assume you know someone's motivations because you've heard similar words from another. Don't leap to conclusions. Don't instantly accuse. Basically, don't infer the substance from the form.

If we take a little more time to think through, or at least attempt to temper our knee-jerk reactions, and allow that people may be a lot more complex than we realise, we may start to fully allow the scope of everyone's humanity to be expressed. It takes more effort, but everyone could do with a little more space. Not for coddling, but so there's more open communication, and understanding that people really do have different needs, and can still adjust to each other.


ps: I have to second Kuu's reservations about this. Was wondering if this is another trolling attempt. If so, brilliant! If not - and I suspect that's far more likely, since you're pretty sensible - then repeat all the above with a bunch of apologetic flowers.

 

[Toad]

I knew Cheese wasn't serious!!! He just sounded so convincing~:smiley_emoticons_mr:smiley_emoticons_mr:smiley_emoticons_mr:smiley_emoticons_mr:smiley_emoticons_mr:smiley_emoticons_mr:smiley_emoticons_mr

 

[Kidege]

*is relieved*

 

[cheese]

Toad mah man

Apologies for not actually addressing anything of use in the previous post, or at least none of the things that Jenny was expressing. I've just been watching people jump too quickly all the time, which was a real disappointment amongst the supposed judgement-suspenders. Conviction is something precious that should only be purchased with a wealth of toil. Suspicions should be voiced with caution. I have no idea what "needs to be said", or how to identify it, but couching it in finely-honed accuracy seems a good idea.

A good example of what I mean is Jennywocky. The tolerance for that maggot ChristopherL (whom I love) that I spat on in the fake troll thread is actually something I greatly admire. She's also qualified exactly what it is she likes and dislikes here, while displaying understanding that the flaws are largely unintended. She's careful not to let her immediate emotional (or mental) reactions cloud and restrict her analyses. I know a lot of us pride ourselves on our ability to do this, but sometimes our vigilance fails. We could probably try harder.

This is meant for interactions on a level playing field. If you hold a position requiring decision-making then the process has to be sped up or altered, I suppose.

*edit
I'm just guessing all this crap.

 

[transformers]

Sorry to see to you leave. I haven't read the thread you're referring to so I can't comment on it, but I'll miss your posts.

 

[Sapphire Harp]

I know some of our members need to unwind in the Fun section, but I honestly do not think this thread is the right idea. Personally I think we could do with less fluff threads anyway - speak to Auburn or Sapphire if you think I'm alone in this - but this goes beyond opinion. People, this is a cesspool for division, and a mockery of everything the older members have gone through.

Hmm... seems like a an appropriate time to get involved, as my name was mentioned... ...so... where -do- I stand on all this?

Personally, I do find most of what I value in this forum lies in the serious threads... people's troubles and interests coming out for others to aid, engage, and challenge... Frankly, I've come to think of the 'Knowing You're Going To Do It One Day" thread as the pentultimate expression of what the forum could be and can do for people... But to imagine the entire forum could be, or should be like that is... not likely... or appropriate?

Honestly, I don't spend much time in the fun threads, or come up with many witticisms or tangents or whatever...mostly because that's not what I am like... For those of you who are familiar with the Sandman - you wouldn't be amiss to think of Thessaly; "I'm not very good at making jokes. I never got the knack of it."

Which isn't to say I can't be frivolous and light-hearted... rather, most times there's usually a level of self-conscious, controlled performance to it... And for that reason I find it draining for me and I tend to shy away from it. Sometimes I enjoy the humor, sometimes I don't have the mood or the energy for it... but I don't get involved much for the reason above...

There's plenty of room for lots of different kind of expression on the forum... and it certainly keeps it diverse. The general rule of thumb I have is to try and match the spirit of the thread, the creator, and the posters before it... I don't imagine there's much more you can do than that.

I do see something of a cultures clash in the forum, though, between the serious and the silly... and it has provoked some real ire... again, I think it's just a thing of conscientiousness and deferring to how a thread is set up and going... And if you don't really like the content of the forum as whole, but you want to be involved, you're obliged to create threads like the ones you want to see.
​

I have felt like this is a tightly knit community... but also that often the newcomers are left on the outside. The people who are in the community usually just banter among themselves and skip over a lot of posts of newcomers who were trying to engage the issues... I feel like this forum is basically an introvert's safe little hidey-hole from the outside world, with people hunkered within; I walk through the coffee shop and see everyone already paired up at tables and happy in their own microcosm, and even if I sit at a table here and there and try to participate, the conversation never really opens up or becomes inclusive.

I can see this sort of thing, now that it is mentioned... Indeed, part of it underpins the notion of trying to match the notion of the thread's creator. If you want to be a part of the microcosm they've created, I have been suggesting you adjust yourself to it, or create your own microcosm...

In a very real sense, this is a group of people who aren't very good at being with other people. Certain difficulties follow naturally, and it's difficult to realize what they are. The accusations of hierarchy, old-guardedness, and ignoring newcomers, while partially true, are also partly a reflection of this.

Being a member of a community is difficult because it engenders an incredible amount of obligation. If someone engages what you're saying, posts in reply, sends a pm... whatever - there is the obligation. You're obliged to return in kind... and the obligations just keep coming and keep on taking... but you want these things back from people in turn... so can you just receive, but not give? No...

Personally, I feel like a great many threads of this forum die premature deaths because so many of us fail to act. Fail to reply, fail to take the time to appreciate what someone else is doing... or even simply by taking too long about it, for that matter. Waiting too long is just about the same as ignoring, sometimes.

Inevitably, we're all failing to make contributions we ought make... There are simply too many obligations to not come up short - so everyone is forced to negotiate and decide what an acceptable level of failure is for themselves... and make choices about what goes unanswered. There's never an easy solution and preference usually goes towards those with whom there is a connection...

For a time I was trying to reply to everyone who contributed in any thread I was tending, but that led me to discover there's a chasm on the other side, as well... If you reply to everyone, you're taking a lot of time to do so and losing their appreciation for it, as well as creating a post that deters most everyone from reading. It is a losing situation, either way.

Still... I think we all have to try. This post, in itself, is an example I'm going to offer - as it's pretty far from what I wanted to be doing tonight... I worked almost fourteen hours today and in writing this post I've cut myself down to probably four hours sleep this night before I have a similarly long workday tomorrow while still trying to get over bronchitis... I took the hour to read for and to write this because it seemed necessary to do so, a right thing to do, a responsibility that came from being a part of the community... I'm not angry or irritated in this regard... it was a cost that the connection I have to all of you seemed to request. Under these circumstances, I don't meet that cost in anything resembling a joyous manner, but I do meet it willingly...

* * * * *
​

Cryptonia... While the description doesn't really feel applicable, I have little doubt that image is how I'm seen by a lot of people... some on forum, some in life.
​

 

[Inappropriate Behavior]

So I go out of town (Where I get only occasional computer access on my mom's laptop) and the whole place goes to shit? What am I? The glue holding this place together?

^^Is that an inappropriate reaction?

Probably so but then I never know what is and isn't appropriate. Let me say this, I LOVE CHEESE! Especially melting between two slices of toasty buttery bread. I also love Jenny and her posts. She is one of the most insightful members here. We all learn from Jenny when we have been fortunate enough to have her around.

I have absolutely no answers here but I'll tell you how I go about certain things. Everything in the fun forum I treat as someone trying to have fun/be funny. No matter how harsh it might get (see Sarcasm Club). It's meant to be fun no matter what. If someone has a problem with something I say on a fun thread I expect to be PM'd by the offended person to see what I may have meant. I never mean harm and I don't think most here do. It's just that sometimes we are good at being funny and sometimes we aren't.

Hope you come back Jenny.

Hope you don't get discouraged or hold back cheese.

 

[snowqueen]

For some reason I am enormously heartened that even Jenny does the INTP hissy fit when the world doesn't quite confirm to our expectations! Of course you fit in here - and you've just proved it! I always thought you were far too sensible and sane to be INTP but thankfully you've got that skewed view that sometimes takes you off the rails just like the rest of us!!

walking on eggshells? bwahahahahaha. This is the only place on the planet where I don't feel I have to walk on eggshells. Over the past couple of months we've had a huge influx of new people who've stuck around and fitted themselves in immediately. I spent a couple of weeks on Typology Central and ran away screaming. I can manage reading two or three threads in Personality Cafe before I start feeling like my brain is going to explode.

We're so funny.

You can't possibly leave us forever, Jenny! You keep coming back here cos you love us really, go on, admit it

 

[echoplex]

Am I the only one who's shocked that anyone thought any of the posts in that thread were serious? The premise of the thread was clear, and the thought that anything there was possibly serious eluded me completely. Yes, I suppose the idea that latent attitudes could be subtly unleashed in such a thread is reasonable, but that wouldn't be my first, second, or even tenth thought. (not meant as an insult to anyone, I'm just surprised)

I really enjoyed Jenny's posts. They contained alot of valuable advice and wisdom that I will miss. I can understand, though, how this place can easily rub some the wrong way. I have felt the same way, but there's usually been enough interesting things here to keep me coming back. But yes, I can relate to some of the criticisms she offered. I do think our reactions to certain things have seemed a bit 'all or nothing', although that may be more illusion than reality, I'm not sure.

So, perhaps some suggestions we could take from this, as we have been very naughty:
- Don't be afraid of trolls. They don't have magical powers or anything. They're just fucked up people, more than likely. We can relate to them somewhat, right before banning them.
- Respond more to new members. Apparently some people crave more appreciation than what comes from an Introit thread. Give them their fix, or they will go running to the next potential supplier, probably shaking and weilding weapons.
- Speak up. We INTPs can be quite intelligent, but sadly the MBTI cannot yet account for mind-reading capabilities. Possessing iNtuition does not mean we know what you're thinking, it just means we think we do.
- Don't take yourself so seriously. The universe likely doesn't care about your silly thoughts and your annoying troll problems. This is probably a good thing.

There's probably more we could improve on as well. Let's not be perfect though. I, for one, enjoy a little dysfunction. I am an INTP after all.

 

[Beat Mango]

Oh well I like the forum. I can say what I think here and people don't think I'm a retard or make me explain myself 5000 times, and just about everyone seems to have read Nietzsche - good enough for me.

 

[Jennywocky]

For some reason I am enormously heartened that even Jenny does the INTP hissy fit when the world doesn't quite confirm to our expectations! Of course you fit in here - and you've just proved it! I always thought you were far too sensible and sane to be INTP but thankfully you've got that skewed view that sometimes takes you off the rails just like the rest of us!!

mua ha ha ha.

Yes. I have my moments. (I get stuck playing "mom" on forums and life elsewhere most of the time, so I guess this was one viable place I could afford to have a meltdown.)

Although looking back, it wasn't much of one.
I didn't even scream in ALL CAPS.

I spent a couple of weeks on Typology Central and ran away screaming.

If you ever go back... I'm on staff and go by my real name there. (Three guesses as to what that might be. ) Feel free to write.

ps. CaptainChick scared you away, didn't she? ... or maybe Victor. *hrmph*

I can manage reading two or three threads in Personality Cafe before I start feeling like my brain is going to explode.

I liked it for a bit but it was very chaotic and scattered to me... visually and posting-wise.

The biggest hit is that once Lance set up the Dating functionality, my work browser read it as a "social/dating" site and now blocks it (cutting back my browsing hours over lunch)... plus the advertisements tend to clutter my computer memory.

Still, there are a few good posters there I enjoy talking to, amid all the clutter.

...You can't possibly leave us forever, Jenny! You keep coming back here cos you love us really, go on, admit it

....ARGGGG!

(sigh)... yeah.

I'm sorry I couldn't approach things differently than I could that day.

I appreciate the deliciousness of Cheese taking things to the max (he done good, the joke was on me, and I *am* smiling over it now that I know his intentions)... but unfortunately he was not aware of all the festering gunk going underneath the surface.

BTW, since someone mentioned him, ChristopherL just got voted to be a troll by INTPc membership (informally), lol. He doesn't learn from his mistakes, and even they've got him pegged. I'm wondering how much longer he'll last.

I will miss you occasional but much needed jesting.

(or is this a jest in itself, taken to an even higher level... made to emphasize and ridicule that whole tone of seriousness.... total MINDSCREW! damn you)

ha ha... yes, that would have been one tremendous mindscrew, huh?
And a joke worthy of Cheese's amazing play...

but no, I was serious and am still mulling over things.... since I was serious, still feel conflicted, and it wasn't a bid for attention, which I'm afraid such things come off as if the person comes back; I wanted to avoid that appearance.

(Actually, I'm Andy Kauffman, undercover. Please don't tell anyone.)

o think the troll incident exposed one of our greatest weaknesses. It attacked us in areas where we possess little intelligence. Namely, it attacked our lack of emotional awareness (F), and our inability to take decisive/concrete action (J).

I agree.

I felt like everyone was floundering and bewildered.

Since I immediately had the response of (figuratively) "Take the trolls out back and shoot them behind the chemical sheds," I was wondering if I was being cold or authoritarian or if something was wrong with me.

...but then again, I have moderated a large forum for a few years, and I've been through a lot of emotional trauma in my life that forced me to learn how to deal with people in non-passive ways. The "me" in my 20's would have probably been under the same onus of confusion and uncertainty.

It's not that I don't care about the trolls or see any good qualities in them as people. I don't like to turn people away. But I have enough experience to see where that sort of behavior leads, in terms of its impact on the community, and also enough experience to know the tricks (conscious or unconscious) that trolls play to confuse people long enough to do their damage. If you sense someone isn't going to turn around or has little/no desire to change, then at that point "community health" becomes the priority and you remove the bad apple; individuals (i.e., the trolls) must take responsible for their own choices.

I do think INTPs are rationals, but they don't necessarily possess intelligence in every aspect of life.

Definitely. I think that's a big "growing" point for anyone.
We have strengths, and so do all the other types.
But we have weaknesses, and so do all the other types.

We each have toolboxes, and the toolboxes have some different tools. Some of the tools overlap between archetypes, but some do not.
Rationals have to work at acquiring and learning to use some new tools when the old ones are inappropriate to the situation.

How will the atmosphere ever improve when all those who see it's flaws turn around and leave? Though you may not see it, you're also a catalyst for growth to several members here, myself included.

Sigh. I don't see it, honestly.
It means a lot for you to say it.

I'll key people in on something about me: In my life I learned a hard hard lesson that I could not assume anything about someone else's feelings or opinions. I wish I could, it would make my life easier. I've had people (family and friends) who I tried to assume things of and then got badly mangled when I realized my assumptions were wrong.

So while I have a very good Ne and use it as much I can (coupled with my Thinking) to model people's opinions around me and have as good a sense as possible of what to expect of them... if there is no data coming in... eventually I have no scraps to go on... and I flounder and drown.

I am just dependent on data at some point. And I really hate that, because I hate to appear clingy or needy in ANY aspect, but at the same time realistically I just needed to hear you say what you just said. Now that I've heard it (and even just that much), I'm good to go for a long time.

Obviously I suck at staying away. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't blowing off anyone who wanted to stay in contact with me... and then of course my curiosity got the better of me... and then of course if someone is sincerely engaging in discussion, I can't just blow it off. Sigh.

So... I am just playing things by ear now.

But at the time I did need to set a boundary for myself.

I know the feeling of posting something deep and not receiving replies from it. However, often times I find out later that people really did see them and it left an impact. Please don't be discouraged so easily..

Well, to me it wasn't "easily"... I've been feeling this way for months, and comparing it to feedback on other forums (of which I get more steadily of), so it was the best rationalization I could muster at the time. *hug*

 

[snowqueen]

yay!!!

I know I should post more in response to your wonderful resumption of activity but I'm totally knackered from a week of sorting and clearing my mother's apartment ready for her stuff to be shipped tomorrow ...

No one person put me off TC - it was just far too busy and too many people to try to get to know and it simply felt overwhelming. A bit too like real life!

 

[Beat Mango]

Well thanks to this thread I now know how I come across when I have my sookfests.

 

[Jennywocky]

Well thanks to this thread I now know how I come across when I have my sookfests.

... i live to be a cautionary tale for others.

 

[saffyangelis]

It's good to have you back. No more running off for a while now, okay?

 

[Kidege]

^ ditto

 

[Waterstiller]

... i live to be a cautionary tale for others.

I actually really like that quote.


This thread has kind of inspired me to give a little more of myself to this forum. I don't necessarily know if I can reach out to others but I will start to share my experiences and thoughts a bit more. Lately I've been getting excited about certain ideas and don't really have anyone I can talk to about some of the more depressing/deeper/confusing things.

 

[Auburn]

Auntie jenny iz bak! yayz! ^^ *throws cheese at kuu*

(I'm technically not supposed to be online right now, but I just couldn't resist lurking a bit, and I felt I had to say this..)

Waterstiller, it made me smile when I read that.
I'd love to hear what you have to share.

 

[fullerene]

^^seconds that

 

[Dormouse]

This thread has made me kinda happy, in a 'yay stuff has been resolved ' way.

I don't know you, Jenny, but you've always seemed very open-minded and tolerant of different perspectives...
There have been times when you've seemed like the only level-headed person here, so I'm very happy you won't be leaving.

 

[Cavallier]

A chronological list of my reactions as I read this thread:

1. Noooo!

2. Oh poor Cheese!

3. Three Cheers for Snowqueen!

4. YAY! Resolution!...maybe...

Okay, now for my personal reaction bit:

I do really enjoy your posts. While I think that everybody needs a break from this place from time to time I haven't found a forum quite like this one. I can't walk away for long it seems. I don't feel censored or like I'm "walking on eggshells' here. If I've crossed a line somebody points it out and I apologize. Problem solved.

How do I say this so that it won't come across as negative? Perhaps you love to much? I'm kind of joking and kind of not. When I start to get upset about a things said around here I stop to consider if the poster is in earnest. If they are then my estimation of them drops but if I determine they are not then, well, I let them live in my head as they are. Does that make sense? I think I might have just bypassed the main issue entirely. I'm not good at being direct I suppose.

Oh well. I just don't want you to leave for purely selfish reasons.

Edit: Okay so I went and looked up the thread. Interesting. I thought every comment was hogwash trolling as was asked for except for many of the really good trolling comments. Which makes a point in and of itself huh? The whole thread was an example of what trolling is really like. I find it fascinating that trolling was asked for and we forum members rose to the occasion by giving a really good example of trolling. It even ended with our neighborly janitor closing it down with a sarcastic eye roll.

It kind of reminds me of this. The thread that upset you so much is like a microcosm of trolling throughout the internet. Thank you Jenny for bringing this post to light. I've learned quite a bit here.

 

[Jennywocky]

I don't feel censored or like I'm "walking on eggshells' here.

One of my personal issues involves tacit pressure from family and subculture to behave in certain ways. (And the pressure there was real -- if I didn't read the cues, I was punished in subtle ways.)

No one here overtly ever tried to censor me, but I was feeling like I was being disruptive (such as the whole GrammyofDavid incident last winter) and wasn't getting many cues back, just mostly silence... so I did not know how to read it. In a vacuum, it's hard not to fear the worst.... especially if the worst is what has always occurred elsewhere.

How do I say this so that it won't come across as negative? Perhaps you love to much?

maybe.

Sigh.

I told someone recently that a driving force in my life is "to know and be known." If I don't feel known, or if I feel I am known inaccurately, that is emotionally painful to me. I don't want to be a public center of attention, that is uncomfortable to me, but I want to known and be known by individuals within the collective.

This incident/situation sort of left me feeling like I was either unknown or mis-known. I'm sorry I had a bad response and didn't trust people intuitively, it's just part of my baggage. I hope it makes more sense now.

Edit: Okay so I went and looked up the thread. Interesting. I thought every comment was hogwash trolling as was asked for except for many of the really good trolling comments. Which makes a point in and of itself huh? The whole thread was an example of what trolling is really like. I find it fascinating that trolling was asked for and we forum members rose to the occasion by giving a really good example of trolling. It even ended with our neighborly janitor closing it down with a sarcastic eye roll.

Yes. And normally if I know the people well, I read stuff with a grain of salt and assume it is a joke. (Some of my friends and I say some pretty dreadful stuff to each other, stuff that other people have gotten upset/appalled by if it's been overheard by them. *blush* So I'm definitely capable of it myself if I know the context.)

The problem was just that:
1. I was already secretly insecure about what people thought about me.
2. Cheese was GOOD... I'm laughing as I write this.
3. I didn't really know Cheese at all, to know what he was like or if he was serious.
4. All the other cues were ambiguous, and the mod response made it seem like the mods took it as serious troll behavior.

Sorta like the almost-melt-down of Three Mile Island, a lot of random negative factors happened to coincide. *doh*

....well, at least some good came of my comments, so it wasn't just a "Jenny acts abominably." <-- explosion when the bull blows up

...I don't know you, Jenny, but you've always seemed very open-minded and tolerant of different perspectives...

Thank you, that was a really nice thing for you to say, I work hard at that ... and I feel known by you.

 

[Cavallier]

One of my personal issues involves tacit pressure from family and subculture to behave in certain ways. (And the pressure there was real -- if I didn't read the cues, I was punished in subtle ways.)

Ouch. That kind of baggage is tough to let go. Its the under the table sneaky kind of psychological issues that linger and when we finally think we've dealt with them they raise their ugly heads. I have long standing family issues involving ridiculous social-religious expectations that I recently had to deal with. I thought I had staked those and put them in the grave years ago but no.

No one here overtly ever tried to censor me

Good. *puts away Sword of Justice and Pointy Mace of Reprimanding Idiots*

...well, at least some good came of my comments, so it wasn't just a "Jenny acts abominably."

Jenny the abominable snow-woman? Nah. You're so eloquent and well mannered that being abominable never comes into it. I do understand why you got upset though. It's all there in the comments on that thread and that's why trolling is despicable. In real life I wouldn't tell an acquaintance in the middle of a conversation that they are idiots for taking a particular stance on an issue, they are ugly, need to look into personal hygiene, and top it all off with a comment on their sexuality. Okay, maybe I would but I think I've made my point here. Many people take part in forums with a certain amount of seriousness and it's difficult to genuinely participate if tolls are there to hammer you into the dirt every time you post something intelligent.