Pros/Cons of Programming for an INTP

[Architect]

An open discussion about the pros and cons about programming as a career for an INTP. I've recommended it enough, I'd also like to hear from detractors. Also invited a "special guest" from INTPc to contribute.

 

[Architect]

Here's a remarkable post by "Brachiosaurus" on INTPc on how programming turned his life around. Worth reading carefully, and re-reading, regardless of what you do. The underlined parts resonates with me

First and foremost this might be kind of long and as I am well aware of - us INTPs have a hard time paying attention to 99% of things, especially long rants filled with possibly boring detail of others lives. However, I did want to offer some advice to you from an INTP who has found happiness. Why do I have any credibility? Because I have suffered from serious depression prior to a year ago and was on my way to possibly just ending it all because I seemingly knew what my apparent destiny was - getting a fucking horrible job that required monotonous boring work topped with constant social interaction day in and day out. The inescapable 21st century workforce that others can somehow manage to pull of but is a sheer searing knife to an INTP brain where our mind is a playground of imagination and logic. I'm not going to go into immense detail but let me just give you a hint on my backstory...

I'm fairly young, early 20's, never heard of the INTP personality before summer of 2011. I graduated high school a few years ago and went straight to college. I've always been fairly gifted at figuring things out but I am far from a gem of brilliance. You see I'm smart in the sense that I am good at ARCHITECTING ideas. I'm sure many of you feel the same way. However, I cannot follow rules - I can't study, I only pursue academics of my own interest, and I am constantly bored. Nothing (well almost nothing) can hold my attention for more than probably a week before it gets shattered by a new pursuit. My problem is I'm just as much a logician as I am an artist and I need to have some outlet for creativity using logic. It must be a mix of the two or else I become depressed - for instance, I could never be a painter, musician, writer, etc. because it relies way too much on the individual to produce unique creative work. And I could never be a full blown mathematician because it requires sheer logic, and in my opinion, mathematics and the sciences or too restricting when it comes to scientists being creative with their work. That's just my opinion however.

Anyway, us INTP's we need the two together - Creativity and Logic. I went to college because I thought it was the next step in life but it took me two years to even pick a major because I never could decide what to do with my life - I NEVER had an answer when I was a child. I fucking hated people that did (or I was just jealous) because I never knew how someone could pick ONE thing to devote their life to when the world offers so many different things. Luckily, I went to a local state school which is respected, credible, and fairly cheap compared to other colleges. I THOUGHT I wanted to be a filmmaker of some sort (sheesh, fucking kidding right? I can barely follow through on tying my shoes) because I LOVE the idea of IDEAS. I love the thought of being able to architect an IDEA and build it and polish it and show it off to the world and inspire others.

So, two years into college I just picked a major that dealt with media production and stuff. Little did I know was that I am an INTP - decision making, follow through, and sticking to something is not going to happen. Plus I fucking hate the media and shit, but what the fuck did I know at the time? I just went with my apparent interests that I had one day.... Well that day turned into another two years of classes, classes I despised. But why did I stick to it? Cause I didn't know what else to do with my life - I 'needed' a college degree and all my credit hours were with this major so I just thought I'd finish - plus I got scholarships for my excellent GPA so I used it to my advantage.

So there I was, another two years later about to graduate college and I realized I didn't want to do this with my life. I felt like I just wasted four fucking years of education and college and some of my parents money to have nothing to show. WTF was wrong with me? I had totally lost interest in something I THOUGHT I was passionate about. The thing is though, and that I realized, is that I NEVER was passionate about it - in fact I realized I was not passionate about anything in life. I just went with my interests at the time but you all know as an INTP - interests change often.

So I got thrown into depression because I thought something was wrong with me and the way I think. I wanted to be like everyone else - don't think so much about things, enjoy fucking sunday football, watch grass grow, mow the lawn, talk about the weather, blah blah blah blah... all the things that NORMAL people do. But I knew it was never going to happen - my mind was a playground with no outlet and I knew I wasn't normal. Bare in mind, this was a point in my life I did not know about the INTP, and I felt immense guilt for my actions and the way I think. I knew I could not survive in this world without being extremely unhappy everyday. So I thought about suicide a lot.... I cried a lot... I had the some of the worst thoughts ever where I would just mentally beat myself up because I hated who I was. I didn't think I had any sort of skills or anything to offer the world.

One day in the middle of the semester - a semester where I was drinking heavily and picked up smoking cigarettes because I couldn't stand my classes - I realized I could not do this anymore. I was at the lowest of the low and I knew it was either suicide or take responsibility for shaping my life the way I wanted it to be. And for some reason, at the lowest of the low, when I HATED everything that was in this world, I realized that the only thing that has been a sustained current of interest is Computers. I BELIEVED in the power of Computers, and for some reason, I felt the need to learn how to program. I couldn't really tell you why other than the fact that I realized I had nothing to lose, I was practically on the breaking point anyways and I thought, well why the fuck not?

So next semester was my first CS course and I LOVED it. I learned about primitive types, loops, control statements, and "Hello World!" I learned about classes, fields, and methods.... and I will never forget when I realized what an Object actually was. I finally saw the bigger picture of an Object and I was like
"OHHH That's an object! I get it!". I WANTED TO KNOW EVERYTHING ABOUT COMPUTERS AND PROGRAMMING. I actually would go home and smash through websites, tutorials, and would read the book far ahead of anyone in my class because I WANTED TO KNOW MORE.

And that's when it hit me - I wanted to be a programmer.

I never WANTED to be anything in my life, but I WANTED to be a programmer.

But what the fuck? I'm about to graduate college - my parents will think I'm crazy, EVERYONE will think I'm crazy.... how am I going to go to school for this for another two-three years? How will I pay for it...?

One day, when I was trying to find online advice about what to do, I found Steve Job's Stanford Commencement Speech. It changed my life because it hit me exactly when I needed it to and also when I was already thinking about just killing myself anyways. I realized from what he said, that life is short and that I should be happy. Programming made me really happy. No other type of work made me happy, or held my true interest, or gave me an inner sense of satisfaction. So I decided, to "trust that it would all work out okay" and I told my parents that I wanted to be a programmer and that I don't care what happens but that I'm going to pay for summer school and work my ass off so I can get into higher level classes in the fall. And I don't care, because this is what I want to dedicate my working life to - because, as I felt cocky to admit it, I was GREAT at programming, not only because I loved it but because it was MADE for my mind of using Logic and Creativity to architect and build IDEAS.

Summer of last year, I worked my ass off studying, programming, and working to pay the bills. It was amazing that I loved to do something and I wanted to know why. I wanted to finally figure out why I was the way I was and eventually, I found the INTP forum, and I found you guys. And the planets aligned in my life. It all made sense to me now - every single fucking decision I ever made, every interest I've held and thrown away, every thought I ever had - it all made sense now. Sure, Myers-Briggs might be pseudo-sciencey, but it certainly is a starting point for a lot of people and it saved my life because it made me realize that I suck at 99/100 things but I blow the competition away when it comes to Abstract ideas. I decided to nurture and grow that skill and now here I am.....

Let's just say "it all worked out okay", I worked my ass off and got scholarships to help pay for my school. I found a company that believed in my capabilities and currently work for them as a programmer. Sure, it's a lot of responsibility but hard work - but there is no other job I'd rather be doing and working my ass off at. They respect who I am and they leave me alone to do my work. Everyone is very intelligent and very respectable - thought I think they are more ISTJs but still very awesome.

My life did a 180 in ONE FUCKING YEAR because of passion and hard work and the realization that my life and my happiness was my responsibility. I know everyone has different circumstances and life is 'harder' for others, but I urge you to please take something from my story....

1. Take responsibility for your life, it is yours, and no one can tell you what to do fully or what makes YOU happy.

2. Believe in yourself even though your an INTP. You're not like others, but you also have skills that pay MONEY and that you love to use anyways. Foster these Logic and Creativity skills and use them to support yourself.

3. You deserve to be happy, but you have to find it. AND YOU HAVE TO WORK FOR IT. The work I put into changing my life was not stated enough in this rant, but it exists. I knew what I wanted in life and I worked very hard for it.

4. Don't fucking make excuses. I had a million excuses not to change my life because it would be 'too hard'. INTPs solve problems. If I didn't have money for school then I went out and I found others who did who would give it to me. If I didn't have 'time to learn everything' then I stopped my 'hobbies' and I found the time. SOLVE YOUR LIFE PROBLEMS, YOU'RE A PROBLEM SOLVER.

5. Develop your social skills and be nice to everyone - it goes a long way. I HATE small talk, in fact I don't care to socialize much at all. But dude, humans have to talk to one another, especially when working together. Respectable, intelligent employers want to know you're not a complete basket case because they need to work with you.

6. Eliminate everything in your life that DOES NOT MAKE YOU HAPPY. You won't find me on facebook, or watching television, or filling my life with any negative aspects that this world has seemed to adopt so readily. I live a very simple life and in my personal opinion, I think that is where happiness is. Surround yourself with what you love - it's probably only a few things.

7. It's never too late to change your life.


Don't hesitate to ask me more questions. I'm kind of bored writing this now and I'm about to enjoy a wonderful day with my girlfriend. I've got some shit I want to do now, because I'm an INTP and I've got a lot of side interests I'm working on.

 

[Nezaros]

I thought I might want to get into programming, but I took a class in C for a couple weeks before it just felt too tedious.

 

[Analyzer]

I thought I might want to get into programming, but I took a class in C for a couple weeks before it just felt too tedious.

I don't blame you. I first tried to learn programming in 10th grade using C/C++. C is like the Judaism of programming languages. Old with a structured foundation, but still used. I never touched programming again until last year and learned Python which is something more high level.

Now I appreciate and see the advantages of C as most low-level close to hardware programming is done using C, but I much rather use a more object-oriented high level language like PHP, C# or Python.

I wonder what will happen to low-level languages like C in the future. Will all programming languages become super high level and the low-level left for the electrical engineers? I don't know enough about the industry to inform you on that.

 

[bartoli]

I'm not sure for all programming jobs, but i think the one i have is quite suited for INTPs. I'm not in charge of developping the products my company sells, but am actually developping the development environment that the final developpers are using.
In my previous job, i apreciated more the times when i was programming tools that would help me program the final products faster, than programming the products themselves. Now that's what i do full time. No need to finish the product, that's the other developpers job. Mine is to improve the 'system'. I'm the 'architect of their matrix', as i once said
There are no 'for yesterday' deadlines anymore. The developpers are working for the product of next year, and i'm working on the developper's development environment of next year, or improving the current development environment, but always with enough time to do it right.
There are no customers to see anymore, no more urgent missions at the other side of the globe with no preparation time available. I work in an office with more people, but they are more interesting people and i see no judging eyes on my differences.
I might have more to say, but it's time to go to work, i'll maybe add more this evening.

 

[walfin]

I believe INTPs like coding because it's easy for them to learn.

At least, that was why I liked it when I was INTP.

Now, I like it because it can be used to help other people #infp.

 

[Nezaros]

I don't blame you. I first tried to learn programming in 10th grade using C/C++. C is like the Judaism of programming languages. Old with a structured foundation, but still used. I never touched programming again until last year and learned Python which is something more high level.

Now I appreciate and see the advantages of C as most low-level close to hardware programming is done using C, but I much rather use a more object-oriented high level language like PHP, C# or Python.

I wonder what will happen to low-level languages like C in the future. Will all programming languages become super high level and the low-level left for the electrical engineers? I don't know enough about the industry to inform you on that.

If that's the case perhaps I should try Java or Python. Though I'm not sure if it's more actual programming that interests me or just the idea of it.

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

I spend most of my day programming for work. Mainly data mining and analysis type stuff. It is good fun.

 

[Analyzer]

I spend most of my day programming for work. Mainly data mining and analysis type stuff. It is good fun.

What does this work consist of that differs from software development?

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

What does this work consist of that differs from software development?

I have developed statistics packages and libraries to be used in house.

I would state that it does not differ from software development. I write a program which performs a specific task. I got through the same stages of production ie. flow charts, prototyping, debugging and finalization. Everything is documented. The end result just doesn't have a pretty user interface and it needs to be tweaked for different data sets.

 

[Architect]

I'm not sure for all programming jobs, but i think the one i have is quite suited for INTPs. I'm not in charge of developping the products my company sells, but am actually developping the development environment that the final developpers are using.

Ha, meta-programming is indeed fun and something I try to work on as often as I can.

 

[Brachiosaurus]

The Pros

Right off the top of my head I can tell you the best parts of being a programmer are autonomy, creativity, the constant acquisition of knowledge, understanding my favorite human invention (computers), helping other's with their computer needs (high level software or just low level IT work), and of course the money.

It really depends on your job though, how much you know, who you know, social skills, what you can bring to the table, etc. I have a job right now that allows me to work from home and it will probably be like this for awhile. I got this job from a job last summer that I had at a company and I did so well that one of the employees invited me to his startup. I got last summers job because I applied to every possible outlet of 'getting myself out there' that I could and thankfully was able to land a tour of that company through my school. I was able to do that because I have pretty good social skills (that took my a lot of work and I suggest you develop). You might think that I'm not an INTP because I'm not 'lazy' but I think that word gets thrown around too much for an INTP. I'm lazy in the sense that I solve problems efficiently and as simple as possible and I avoid mundane work that I believe is stupid. I'm not lazy when it comes to my own life and building my own happiness.

I know a lot of you just 'can't get into programming' and I can certainly see why. I hope you all find something you do enjoy or maybe you'll come back to it. IMHO, Programming is the ideal career. You can build the most abstract shit in you head that you couldn't build in the real world and then write code to construct an entire computational system that doesn't even really exist in a concrete way except on magnetic disks or in electrodes on an Solid State Drive. That is the definition of an INTP - the pursuit of ideas that exist in the human mind.

Not to mention, programming can be fun and people leave you the fuck alone to do your work and if you do good work they'll want you to do more work and they'll pay you for it. I get how programming can be 'mundane' or 'tedious' to some but in my opinion, you will never find a job more ideal. ALL JOBS SUCK in one way or another. I've worked some shit jobs and after working with the public for five years I had enough. I just got tired of small talk and it seemed like people as a whole just weren't very smart. I decided that I was worth more than minimum wage and did something about it. Programming really does contribute to the world, your building stuff most people couldn't even have the brain power to think up. INTP's should not waste their imagination because believe me, most people just don't have imagination.

I'll write some more pros soon as that is just a taste and I'll give you more specifics but now I have to get to work.

The Cons

I will leave you with this Con though that I can think of right away: burnout

I love programming, but I don't love it enough to do it all day everyday. The difference between me and the classical definition of a 'nerd' is that at the end of the day, I go home and fuck my girlfriend. I drink beer and I have a good time. Humans need breaks no matter what and if you don't get those you won't produce quality work. Don't ever get a job, especially in programming, where burnout is high. INTP's brains are full of imagination and you need to fuel that shit by reading, watching movies, playing games, having human interaction with people you enjoy, etc.

Now to the work...

 

[h0bby1]

i guess i'm more ISTP than INTP, and i always loved programming, as well as mecanics, physic, math, technology etc =)

as for jobs, there can be many different type of job, after all programming is mostly a language, and it depend a lot of the kind of project you have to realize

maybe my intuitive side is not so fullfilled by programming jobs, i generally prefer web developement for job because they are short term project, and are not so much pressure like more complex application like video game or real time stuff

not sure how intuitive can all the task asked to a programmer can be, some application can require more intuitive work than others, but i always liked electronics, logic, machinery, mechanics , so i'm naturally fond of programming, but not sure how it fullfill intuitive side, that is better expressed with more human type of activity, like philosophy, or theorical science, i would more see INTP being fit at pal alto kind of thing, like visionary who embed technologies and IT in large humanistic view, rather than being that great at tedious performance programming or the mechanistic aspect of programming, which is more suited for ISTP maybe

 

[Architect]

i guess i'm more ISTP than INTP, and i always loved programming, as well as mecanics, physic, math, technology etc =)

...

not sure how intuitive can all the task asked to a programmer can be, some application can require more intuitive work than others, but i always liked electronics, logic, machinery, mechanics , so i'm naturally fond of programming, but not sure how it fullfill intuitive side, that is better expressed with more human type of activity, like philosophy, or theorical science, i would more see INTP being fit at pal alto kind of thing, like visionary who embed technologies and IT in large humanistic view, rather than being that great at tedious performance programming or the mechanistic aspect of programming, which is more suited for ISTP maybe

You sound very much like the ISTP's I work with. As my manager says it takes all types to make a team. In other words you can take any approach you want with programming, either a high level or a get your hands dirty level.

 

[Architect]

The Pros

Right off the top of my head I can tell you the best parts of being a programmer are autonomy, creativity, the constant acquisition of knowledge, understanding my favorite human invention (computers), helping other's with their computer needs (high level software or just low level IT work), and of course the money.

Wise words from our special guest. [MENTION]Brachiosaurus[/MENTION] is much better at explaining the value of programming than I am. In the statement above you can see the appeal to Ti (understanding, autonomy), Ne (creativity), Si (knowledge acquisition) and Fe (helping other's with their computer needs)

I have a job right now that allows me to work from home and it will probably be like this for awhile.

Wonderful. I live close to work but work from home half the day because I'm so much happier and more productive.

I have pretty good social skills (that took my a lot of work and I suggest you develop).

Good advice for developing and using your Ne. I don't do it much now but this really worked in my favor earlier in my career.

You might think that I'm not an INTP because I'm not 'lazy' but I think that word gets thrown around too much for an INTP. I'm lazy in the sense that I solve problems efficiently and as simple as possible and I avoid mundane work that I believe is stupid. I'm not lazy when it comes to my own life and building my own happiness.

agree

I know a lot of you just 'can't get into programming' and I can certainly see why. I hope you all find something you do enjoy or maybe you'll come back to it. IMHO, Programming is the ideal career. You can build the most abstract shit in you head that you couldn't build in the real world and then write code to construct an entire computational system that doesn't even really exist in a concrete way except on magnetic disks or in electrodes on an Solid State Drive. That is the definition of an INTP - the pursuit of ideas that exist in the human mind.

Perfectly well stated.

I get how programming can be 'mundane' or 'tedious' to some but in my opinion, you will never find a job more ideal. ALL JOBS SUCK in one way or another.

Yes. It really is what you make of it. Most jobs can be worked into something you'd like, or hate.

The Cons

I will leave you with this Con though that I can think of right away: burnout

I love programming, but I don't love it enough to do it all day everyday.

Precisely. Keep other hobbies nearby. Music and photography works for me.

 

[h0bby1]

yeah i sort of like assembly language, hardware interface, low level stuff, system programming that is close to hardware, even 3D engines etc

i wouldn't do that as a job, because it's sort of very time consuming, and hard to debug, as to answer also what someone said before about C, C will always have some room, if only to develop kernels and low level things, or for computation extensive stuff, like scientific or real time things, but i think more and more application with go toward something close to action script in flash, and i mostly develop web stuff for work, which is also mostly high level programming, maybe someday some company will come up with some flash on steroid that allow good performance and more direct access to hardware for 3D rendering that would make good framework for future applications

but i tend to like performance, and well craft sotfware that are efficient, easy to maintain, optimised as much as possible in the given time , but i develop also many stuff at home related to 3D engine, raytracing, physics, OS developement and other kind of things, even if i'm also carefull about burn outs, i tend to do also meditation and mind clearing stuff often, and i tend to be carefull at mannaging stress level as well, but i generally handle pressure rather well, i've seen istp function well in emergency or crisis kind of situation, which i find often being the case, i'm generally rather good at flash debugging all stuff to meet deadline and to make things work quickly and efficiently =) and i'm not scared to go at dirty level as long as it doesn't risk to compromise the global coherency and security of the whole thing =)

 

[Ink]

I have tried getting into programming so many times but I never end up enjoying any of it. I am thinking a researcher career might be where I'll end up.

 

[h0bby1]

but what i like in web developpement, is that it's immediate result, it's not so much long cycle of developement for everything, with long planning, it's almost immediate result, there is still bit need for planning for more complex kind of portals that need to handle complex content, but generally you get any module or part done in less than a week, so it doesn't involve too much long term pre planning of everything, so it's somehow less bothering like other type of application that have long cycle of developpement, any code you make you will see the result immediatly and functionality are generally rather simple and well defined, so it's not like you code some stuff that will be used 3 month latter in a bigger app =)

the con i'd say it's bit linked with abstraction involved in high level programming, with the complexity of nowday machines and system, and whole layer of abstraction, it sort of take the mind away from more materialistic view of 'regular' mechanic or electronic consideration, so it require lot of abstraction capacity, that are not even really entirely grounded in pure logic like mathematics or science like physics, so it can be like there is no true basis as to deign things, it's even proven that there is no heuristic method to make sure a program won't go into infinite loop, so it can be very stressing for the mind to make sure everything work as expected, as most of algorythmic developement ias mostly as the discretion of the programmer, so it can put lot of responsability on accuracy of prediction and anticipation of behavior that are not based on solid mechanical or electronic basis

like a bit in a marxist view that the people who are the sanest mentally are people who have manual work, compared to bureaucrates, because manual work involve work with the forces of nature, whereas bureaucrate involve work in artifical abstract environement of bureaucracy that can drive people slightly insane or too much taken in abstract logic of bureaucracy that only make sense in the context of the office and the institution, i have bit the same kind of feeling some with high level programming, that it's stuff that mostly make sense in the context of very abstract layer of sdk and systems and libraries, and not so much sane for the mental sometime =)

 

[h0bby1]

when you have to give garantee on the functionning of an application of millions of line of code, involving many inner cycle of developpement, and there is not really any kind of true global science of programming, it can quickly take it's toll on the nerves lol

computers of 20/30 years ago, at the time of the game boy, amiga, C64, atari or SNES was much simpler, it was much more direct contact with the hardware and electronic and much simpler to develop, now with PC and windows, there is always lot of complexity involved into anything that is more or less out of control of the programmer, i don't think there is even a single piece of software that run on windows is completly bug free and of which behavior is 100% under control, even after 50 patches, so it can be always a bit stressing

 

[Valentas]

I have no problems choosing CS at the moment.

Firstly, it is interesting.

Secondly, I cannot imagine anything else I could do. Maybe later I will change my tune.

Thirdly, it requires only bachelor's degree and you're good to go.

Fourthly, I admire the beauty of algorithms. They are hard to understand and implement but they are amazing.

And finally, it kind of guarantees that you will work with people who are at least average intelligence.

Brachiosaurus, what do you program on your job? Web? OSes? Hardware?

 

[Brachiosaurus]

I do whatever the job needs. I work for a small company that does contract work. I know Java, C/C++ Objective-C, Ruby, MatLab and those are my main specialties.

Lately, I've just been redesigning a whole legacy system and rebuilding the layout of the software system with menus and GUIs but then I'll have to program it. There is some work that calls for Java later, and probably by the end of the year I'll be doing some Objective-C for Apple products. All of this deals with Desktop Application/Mobile and not really any web stuff. I'm not really into web development because scripting languages like html/CSS are not programming languages for computation. Plus CSS just pisses me off, this is how I feel about it: http://mlkshk.com/p/PPML

Actually this brings up another huge pro about programming - total lateral movement. I love my job because I get to do new things often and I'm a jack of all trades master of none. I don't want to be a master at any one particular thing. I do what the job needs. Programming lets you do this even if your employer doesn't. You could take a job doing one language for awhile and then when you want to move on just go find another job that does something else.

 

[h0bby1]

web programming is not all about CSS and html either, it's also about backend, data and content mannagment, user account and sessions mannagement, security handling, and with flash and/or ajax there is way to make cool interactive things =)

css can be a bit bothering, but not that much once you get bit used to it, and you have bit of some typical html/css layout and class made, it's not so horrible =)

but yeah it's not that much made for real time computation, with flash there are some possibility, but it's limited compared to what you do with C/C++/java with opengl or directX =)

 

[h0bby1]

i used to develop stuff related to real time video compression and streaming, with server solution, and stuff with avivo to get real time h264 compression, and developping browser plugin with ATL and XPCOM for firefox, or 3D suff, but web developement is much more quiet lol now i just keep real time stuff making like real time physic and stuff like that as hobby or maybe i'll relaunch some kind of startup someday, but i find this too stressing for the moment =) as i don't find much project that i find really worthy to interest me in companies, so i prefer to do web dev as it's more quiet, and i dev some stuff with opengl and shaders and c/c++ for myself as with project i want to do little by little, i have many project in fact regarding technology linked with real time video, web, 3D engines, OS developement and stuff, but not sure i'd really do this professionally, maybe with open source dev =)

 

[h0bby1]

with flash AS3 or flex, it just work on every plaform, it works on windows, it works on linux, it works on mac, it allow for dynamic data exchange with php and xml, it even allow some little 3D, all the gui is already made in very simple manner, it's very easy to embed gui, graphics, fonts, audio, video, and flash player is present on every device and OS =)

even html-css-js it's not so hard to get around, and all the sensitive software is run on the server, and with jquery it's pretty much standardize on every browser of the planet, so you can run the thing from any device, the data is stored on the server so that you can access the whole thing without having anything to install, it's much quicker to develop =)

 

[Analyzer]

web programming is not all about CSS and html either, it's also about backend, data and content mannagment, user account and sessions mannagement, security handling, and with flash and/or ajax there is way to make cool interactive things =)

css can be a bit bothering, but not that much once you get bit used to it, and you have bit of some typical html/css layout and class made, it's not so horrible =)

but yeah it's not that much made for real time computation, with flash there are some possibility, but it's limited compared to what you do with C/C++/java with opengl or directX =)

Yeah, I do web development and prefer working on the back end rather then design, although doing both is not bad as the web has a lot of tools to make front end work a lot easier.

The thing I enjoy about the web so much is the openness of it and how anyone in the world can see and use your software. The web will only become even more integrated with the world as time goes on. Nearly every type of software i think will have some Internet component, whether through a network that is connected or directly.

 

[Architect]

I do whatever the job needs. I work for a small company that does contract work. I know Java, C/C++ Objective-C, Ruby, MatLab and those are my main specialties.
...
Actually this brings up another huge pro about programming - total lateral movement. I love my job because I get to do new things often and I'm a jack of all trades master of none. I don't want to be a master at any one particular thing. I do what the job needs. Programming lets you do this even if your employer doesn't. You could take a job doing one language for awhile and then when you want to move on just go find another job that does something else.

Too true. I started writing for big UNIX systems, now I'm doing small system development, and very recently I'm looking at making a web interface for our small system. Off to the side I've done tons of stuff. Always changing, always new. I don't get it when some people complain about how you always 'have' to learn new technologies in this field. Where's the problem?

Some people I know stick with one technology their whole lives (some of them are world experts in it) but that's not for me.

 

[Brachiosaurus]

Yeah, don't get me wrong guys I love the web. The internet is the freaking future of every single thing. You can most certainly do tons of stuff besides html/CSS but in my area most jobs involving the web deal with both front and back end and I really don't like html/CSS that much. It's weird because I like building GUI's and menus but I just can't take writing straight up html/CSS for some reason. It's still good work though, whatever floats your boat.

Architect - I very much agree. One of the most fundamental things about CS field is that you will always be learning. As not just INTPs but as humans - we should always want to learn something new. I usually get depressed when I feel like there is "nothing left", which is why Programming satisfies me on so many levels.

You know I was thinking today about the field of Computers in general and something else I love about it is that Computers are the future of humanity. I mean just look at the last 20 years - everything has changed because of computers and the Internet. The world is basically flat now and the people of the world now own distribution of knowledge, ideas, content, etc.

As a programmer, we will be in demand for quite sometime as I don't see computers being able to program themselves the way humans can. I always see the bigger picture, and I look at certain areas/fields and I just know that down the line in my lifetime they will be faded out but technology is just getting bigger and more advanced. It will be awesome to see what happens over the years.

 

[h0bby1]

Yeah, I do web development and prefer working on the back end rather then design, although doing both is not bad as the web has a lot of tools to make front end work a lot easier.

The thing I enjoy about the web so much is the openness of it and how anyone in the world can see and use your software. The web will only become even more integrated with the world as time goes on. Nearly every type of software i think will have some Internet component, whether through a network that is connected or directly.

the only thing that can be really mind boggling with web dev is that always have to mix up several language, between php/perl/pything/ruby, and javascript-html, specially with ajax when you get php code that generate some javascript code that has to call some php to generate some other code, it can become very confusing at some point with code that generate code that mix several language, it's meta programming at it's finest lol like real time generated code that are made to call code that will generate code based on the parameter that are given by the generated code =) but with a bit of organisation and planning it's still mannageable =)

with all the cloud technology and all nowdays, i wonder when all apps will be developped mostly for web, like nowday they even made a plugin with the unreal engine, so that you can basically make cutting edge 3D video games in the browser, exept for the data downloading that can be pretty long, you can have cutting edge 3D game programming with javascript =)

if they would develop some real kick ass plugin for browser , a bit better than flash, it could truly switch most application dev toward web things, i wonder the % of sotware for the public that is bought in actual shop vs internet nowdays, exept for console game, and clouding tech seem to only be growing more and more, so that you have most of the data stored online, with application servers, i think a day or another we'll see a rather radical transformation in the way software is designed toward more clouding and distributed system democratized, as with optic fiber coverage get wider and wider, and device become more and more versatile with mobiles device, it can be more and more interesting to use script language that can run on any device with browser plugins, with most of data and code being stored remotely

it's what i like lot with internet and web tech, it's the total universality of it, the big standard of data that are totally multi plateform, with user access that can come from any device with the OSI model and networks protocols, can make securised access to any data, with the layout that come with it, and all the data handling mecanism and content mannagement etc =) i find this funny lol

it's a bit confusing when you come from graphic dev with stuff like SDL, with pixels and graphic buffers, or vectorial things, html and css is a whole different way of thinking layout, but nowdays, with the web 2.0, and the <div> tag, or even the canvas extension, you can program with javascript in very similar way, and it's already possible to have quite interactive interface, with drag and drop, dynamic content, interactivity etc that work on pretty much any plateform with javascript, the difference will become thinner and thinner i believe =)

i really love xslt btw, as the php just have to output the xml data, and xslt template just work on it and generate the html from the data, it's pretty cool stuff =) with dom and all, it's like the whole layout is formatted, with content type, and embded into whole hierarchical structure, even css can be cool with this, with style that apply on specific id, type of tag, and the whole hierarchy it can allow to put in place as template description language, in sort that you can change css and have whole different layout for a same html page, it's very reusable and standard, in a way it's even more practical than most GUI apis =)

 

[h0bby1]

my dream would be to create a sort of universal hierarchy of data that can embed video, 3D, image, text, any type of content that would be shared over internet in a standard manner, much like what the mpeg consortium have planned with the mpeg7 =) for that you can easily work on meta data and stuff to allow sharing of interactive content in a meta information way that device would just take and interpret to display the best with their system =) flash is a bit similar to this, but it's still closed standard that need flash plugin, so it's not all that much universal open data type =) with some sort of universal scripting language that could handle event managment, and manipulation of video , 3D, text, and interaction, much like javascript with html, but with possibility to also integrate easily 3D and video easily along side a bit like an <img> tag with video or 3D object, with the related events =)

 

[Architect]

Yeah, don't get me wrong guys I love the web. The internet is the freaking future of every single thing. You can most certainly do tons of stuff besides html/CSS but in my area most jobs involving the web deal with both front and back end and I really don't like html/CSS that much. It's weird because I like building GUI's and menus but I just can't take writing straight up html/CSS for some reason. It's still good work though, whatever floats your boat.

I've been getting into JSP/server side java which is quite interesting; PHP on steroids. Different from my usual fare which is good.

Architect - I very much agree. One of the most fundamental things about CS field is that you will always be learning. As not just INTPs but as humans - we should always want to learn something new. I usually get depressed when I feel like there is "nothing left", which is why Programming satisfies me on so many levels.

Some people just don't want to learn new things. I work in an older company with some engineers who don't want to try anything new. I also understand the U.S. IRS has a lot of people (career case workers) who literally just want to be cogs in the machine.

You know I was thinking today about the field of Computers in general and something else I love about it is that Computers are the future of humanity. I mean just look at the last 20 years - everything has changed because of computers and the Internet. The world is basically flat now and the people of the world now own distribution of knowledge, ideas, content, etc.

Agree, ultimately everything that humans do is information related, or at least its our most important work.

As a programmer, we will be in demand for quite sometime as I don't see computers being able to program themselves the way humans can.

My observation is that programmers, who are teaching computers to do everybody else's job, are bad at doing software to replace themselves. Plus we always have to be at the forefront.

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

A con is that if you wish to remain fit, you will have to find time outside of work to exercise. When I was working as a laborer years back, work kept me fit.

 

[Brachiosaurus]

A con is that if you wish to remain fit, you will have to find time outside of work to exercise. When I was working as a laborer years back, work kept me fit.

This is so very true and could be considered a large con by many people today.

So far, it has not been a problem for me but as I age I wonder if it will be.

Architect - I know you're a bit older, do you ever find it hard to keep up with industry standards or ever find ageism in this field?

Can never forget a quote from the movie 'Primer':

"You know what they do to engineers when they turn 40? They take them out back and shoot them."

 

[Architect]

A con is that if you wish to remain fit, you will have to find time outside of work to exercise. When I was working as a laborer years back, work kept me fit.

Agreed. OTOH few people keep fit these days. Actually it seems to be two extremes, either they exercise too much or too little. I have sit/stand desks and lift weights & exercise bike 30 minutes every day which seems to work well, plus copious hikes and walks.

Architect - I know you're a bit older, do you ever find it hard to keep up with industry standards or ever find ageism in this field?

Can never forget a quote from the movie 'Primer':

"You know what they do to engineers when they turn 40? They take them out back and shoot them."

I hear a lot of lip service to this idea but haven't seen it myself. I know a lot of older engineers. My observation is that the experienced engineers usually take two paths, either they use their experience and start their own companies and do really well (I'm working on this path) or they paint themselves into a corner and get stuck. I've also heard stories that many employers give more credence to experienced folks and have little interest in a kid out of college with none.

As for keeping up, it's hard for everybody I think. I've not had much exposure to web technologies and am making that up now. Lots to learn, I'm a little harried with all the work to do, but having fun.

 

[Valentas]

Idk if it's worth the read, but here is a book which may remove the con mentioned by Proxy:

http://pragprog.com/book/jkthp/the-healthy-programmer

Though, I bet nothing will beat Fuhrmann advice. Eat as much veggies as possible, get your ass out, don't put on too many projects on your back because you WILL burnout.

 

[h0bby1]

i don't even really agree that html is not a true language, when you really get how it can work, it's bit like xml, it's very powerfull data structure definition language, that is extremly flexible

if you take some php that generate some html code with a list of html block, containing sub element, it's like you generate a list of data structure, add javascript to that, which can act on the sub element of each block, and you get something pretty close to object programming, with some advanced ajax/web 2.0 stuff, you get the html block list with each block with an attribute with an data-element-id, embeded into a container element that contain all the block, that can be manipulated with javascript/dom, with a link with database to add/remove/insert new element, and you get something actually pretty close to object oriented programming, exept that there is not necessarily class type declaration, and it's much more flexible, much like in AS3 you can declare an object type and adding member to the instance of the object without declaring anything, it's like dynamic runtime data type definition

like if you take this forum software, you get the post list , each post can be seen as sort of object, here it's static html so you don't have javascript action associated with it, but let say you'd have some admin power and coud select each post, and edit/remove them dynamically in javascript, with some action on them, and the container block that contain all the post to parse them, you get something that can be rather close to any good fashioned object programming stuff

 

[h0bby1]

Idk if it's worth the read, but here is a book which may remove the con mentioned by Proxy:

http://pragprog.com/book/jkthp/the-healthy-programmer

Though, I bet nothing will beat Fuhrmann advice. Eat as much veggies as possible, get your ass out, don't put on too many projects on your back because you WILL burnout.

two of the best programmer i know also practice some kind of martial art, either kung fu or tai chi =)

programming can be very stressing nowdays, it require lot of intense focus, and i think with all the arrival of whole new brand of programmer in the 2000 who don't have the same kind of level of formation than old school programmer who started back in the day, you always get the timing and price dragged lower, because of lot of bad quality quick made software in competition

so deadline and price are always dragged low, which doesn't include often all the necessary time for doing good planning, good testing, to make normal decent software, so often have to adapt with low deadline, because most mannager and monney guy don't have much clue about the actual technical side, and often don't have a very good understanding of what it take to really have secure and bug free software, compared to quickly made stuff that just work, but can have many bugs, or not easy to maintain, or made in bit crappy way, so it can easily be very stressing with always having to do compromise to compose with objective and dead line, which can involve lot of creativity

and with software programming, the nature of computering make in sort that you rarely have to make two time the same thing, so each thing you have to code will mostly likely be something new each time, because if it's already done, you mostly can copy it or using already made software, so you always have to create new things all the time, with generally deadline that doesn't include all the necessary time to do proper planning and testing, so it can often become stressing

it's very specific area of engineering, because in most other area, security is a must, you can't build a car, a plane or bridge that is not 100% securized, so you get more time and design is taken more seriously, with software it's not like it's as important if a software crash or is not top notch designed, nobody will be killed or nothing really bad will happen if a software has a bug or security problem, most of the time it's not as important, so deadline are much pushed down with less and less time for planning and testing

always need to find the way that is the quickest to make, that have the less risk and can be developped as quickly as possible, most of the time customer just want the thing done as fast as possible, and don't give much shit to how it's done internally, specially now, as ressource and power is not a problem anymore, you can get very crappy software that run just fine, and often have to go into dirty hack and quick fix stuff that are bit random or not so clean and secure to get the thing done as quick as possible, and it can be very confusing for the mind because it's not always made in the cleanest and most logical manner

it's not unlikely that something that would require 2 month to develop with cold head, good planning, good testing, and all you will have to do it in 2 weeks =) so it can often become a bit rush, and going over deadline, and there always something that will go wrong at some point, it can be very intensive =)

lot of time, if they have choice between choosing a guy who will make the thing in 2 month with good planning, good testing and all, or a guy who will pull out the stuff in 2 week with the most dirty quick hack and crappy code, they will take the guy who make it in 2 weeks =)

it's not like there is even big norm of security or any norm at all to make compliant code, so it's bit wild competition =)

 

[Amagi82]

I'm loving this thread. Brachiosaurus is a man after my own heart.

After over a decade of working at dead-end jobs I've hated or, at best, tolerated, I decided to get into programming late last year, and settled on learning Java/Android. I'm really interested in game development, and mobile seemed more accessible and fast paced than PC, but I'll probably get into both eventually. I had no desire to go back to school, so I've been teaching myself with various online resources, including a rather decent Youtube video series. Now I'm designing and starting to build my first real game, which so far has been a really rewarding, interesting, fun experience, despite the complexity and steep learning curve.

What appeals to me about programming, as some of you above have stated, is the synthesis of logic and creativity. I'm not interested in being one of those programmers who gets delegated some small piece of a giant puzzle- I want to design the entire framework of the program- from user interface, to gameplay, to thought process, to world building, everything. I look at the world of mobile gaming right now, and I see utter shit- people are approaching it with the mentality "how can I extract the most money from my target demographic?", rather than focusing on designing a good game that people genuinely enjoy playing. Relying on psychological manipulation techniques to extract money from people with gambling addictions in order to fund your game is unethical and dubious at best.

I guess it shows how much of an INTP I am that not only do I have to architect an entire game, but I have to question the entire framework of the current industry. Games should be fun, interesting, insightful, and educational. I'll probably end up starting my own game company rather than working for someone else, because I expect it'll be difficult to find a company that operates with a compatible ideology.

 

[Architect]

Idk if it's worth the read, but here is a book which may remove the con mentioned by Proxy:

http://pragprog.com/book/jkthp/the-healthy-programmer

Though, I bet nothing will beat Fuhrmann advice. Eat as much veggies as possible, get your ass out, don't put on too many projects on your back because you WILL burnout.

Yeah I saw that book some time ago and don't get the point. Why something special for programmers? As you say Fuhrman's work is the best I've found in 30 years of searching. He also seems to subscribe to the idea that moving is always good, all the time.

Actually you have to be careful about too much exercise. I ran for years and guess what? The only health issue I have at this point in my life is feet problems. Too much hitting the pavement.

Actually on looking at the chapters it doesn't seem too bad, maybe I'll pick up a copy. The title names are just a little too cute "Unit Testing Your Vision"

 

[Architect]

On the keeping up your skills question ([MENTION]Brachiosaurus[/MENTION]) take a look at this job req

Chief Software Architect – Sunnyvale, CA
This is a technical leadership position responsible for defining the software architecture and roadmap for a family of big data processing accelerators products focused on delivering high performance and power efficient, secure data processing.
We are looking for a great architect who is motivated, smart, hands-on and enthusiastic about building a unique distributed and secure processing platform for big data problems. An ideal candidate has strong technical leadership, a desire to examine the entire software stack, and ability to architect a solution to the level required to pass on to the implementation team.
If you thrive on taking responsibility for delivering new products in a “start-up” environment, we want to hear from you.

Required Experience:
• Proven track records in the definition and development of software architecture for high-performance distributed systems
• Expertise in working with internal, external software teams and open source community
• Expertise in large-scale software development projects
• Deep knowledge of the Linux software architecture environment, including O/S, drivers and applications.
• Knowledge of Hadoop or other big data application frameworks
• Knowledge of the hardware/software boundary and how software should be written to extract maximum performance from the hardware
• Expertise in software development for multi-core CPU, NPU, GPU or other complex parallel computing software systems.
• Expertise of compute APIs: OpenCL, CUDA, MPI, OpenMP, OpenACC, C++ AMP, etc.

Desirable experience and skills:
• Strong data and network security
• Customer and partner interfacing
Education/Experience:
• B.S. / M.S. in Computer Science or related discipline; Master’s / PhD degree preferred
• 10+ years of software development/architecture experience, proven track record of on-time delivery of your work

This is typical and is asking for a lot, clearly not meant for a newbie. While I have experience scattered across this list, I haven't specifically done all of these things, but could certainly pick it up in short order.

It's known that people ask for their ideal God candidate in these postings, how much are they willing to bend? Anyhow my point is that the market for experienced engineers is alive and well.

 

[h0bby1]

Required Experience:
• Proven track records in the definition and development of software architecture for high-performance distributed systems => more or less

• Expertise in working with internal, external software teams and open source community
=> used to follow open source dev quite a lot, been mannaging little team(s)

• Expertise in large-scale software development projects => more or less

• Deep knowledge of the Linux software architecture environment, including O/S, drivers and applications. => yes totally

• Knowledge of Hadoop or other big data application frameworks => no idea what that is, did a project using hibernate and tomcat not sure if that's related

• Knowledge of the hardware/software boundary and how software should be written to extract maximum performance from the hardware => yes totally

• Expertise in software development for multi-core CPU, NPU, GPU or other complex parallel computing software systems. => yes multithreading, sse4, GLSL and parralelisation

• Expertise of compute APIs: OpenCL, CUDA, MPI, OpenMP, OpenACC, C++ AMP, etc. => c++/openCL and openMP


not sure i'd really apply for that kind of jobs, ideally i'd more be sort of technical director with an hand on the keyboard as well =)


used to develop video game before, coded an adventure rpg thing with turn based fighting in turbo pascal when i was 16, and also worked on a dreamcast rpg a bit after, but then i switched more toward web oriented things, with securised content delivery, like vod stuff, video streaming, real time encoding with gpu, and been hacking linux rather hardcore, been looking in depth into the kernel sources, and X11 server , the protected mode architecture with virtual memory paging, dma management, pci bus, asynchronous bus, and the whole driver architecture and some of common application base functionning, mostly apache and icecast and the libc, but also been working on several game engines for some friend, i'm familliar with octree and real time collision system and modern 3D game architecture, and pentium/amd pipelining , parralelisation sse and multithreading =) not sure i'd qualify as expertise, but i could probably get more into it without too much pb

i guess motivation to learn and enthusiasm is always a good factor that weight

but yes i'm bit like amagi82, for now i mostly look for easy web job for a living, and maybe i'd launch some start up or some own project again a day or another if i get an occasion, the whole athmosphere of video game and application companies is not really very attractive to me for the moment, as pointed out, it's not all the time very ethical, and their spirit is not always very good in term of creativity, it's more remake and remake of old kind of thing that has been done 100 times and proven to have some kind of customer base, they never take much risk, and it become very boring, and tons of marketing and communication, but i'll probably manage to pull out some kick ass stuff in the next years =)

 

[Brachiosaurus]

I had no desire to go back to school, so I've been teaching myself with various online resources, including a rather decent Youtube video series.

Yeah, school is a tough one for me. In general, I really hate our education system. It's extremely overpriced, corrupt, overrated, and outdated. The U.S. needs a total overhaul on this. The majority of degrees out there aren't worth shit in the real world and the student loans this country has accumulated is the biggest elephant in the room I have ever seen.

If someone were to ask me whether they should go to college I would say yes simply because it's a standard in our society and without it most people won't touch you. But I would tell them do not go unless you are absolutely positive that is what you want to do or else you will be wasting money. If you want to be a doctor, make sure you shadow, research, shadow, research, etc. This goes for any profession.

If someone were to ask me if they should go BACK to school I would probably say no. I basically went back to school, but I worked extremely hard and got extremely lucky in getting scholarships and meeting the right people to get employed. The quality of education my school had wasn't that top notch and I spent most of my time learning on my own, learning faster than I could in school, and learning more than the school was teaching. So I guess it was worth it for me and if someone ever reads this I don't want to ruin their life by telling them not to go back to school, but just make sure you know what you're getting into and make sure you always remember that no one is ever going to help you get to where you want to be except yourself. The education system is no different than any other money-making industry.

Especially in the Computer Science field, it's funny how radically different academia is from the real world. A lot of stuff was totally outdated and they just weren't being practical about what students needed to know. My school didn't even teach source control in any form or fashion. And of course they might say something like "well you can learn that on your own" and my response would be"well can't we learn all this shit on our own?". I think students, especially young naive ones out of high school, should be familiar with source control. Especially if you are going into industry.

I don't know though, I'm just ranting because I can't sleep. I remember Architect writing a post one time about how he went all the way through with getting started on a PhD when he realized he was "just adding a few decimals onto an already proven number" with his research. At least I think that is what he said but don't quote me. I guess that's kind of how I feel about academia.

As a sign off, I can tell you something else that is great about programming. There is always something on the horizon - something more you could do, something more you could learn, something you could do better, something you could invent and show off. Computers are where it is at regarding true constant innovation all the time and fast. You don't get this in many fields - even the science fields. The science fields are actually very, very slow. There are very little knew things being discovered. I'm not saying it isn't happening or that it can't happen, I'm just saying it is slow. The best way to describe how I feel about programming is that it is like watching the sun rise. There is so much potential and it can always keep you fresh and the mind full of innovation, ideas, and creativity. INTP's need this.

 

[Architect]

If someone were to ask me whether they should go to college I would say yes simply because it's a standard in our society and without it most people won't touch you. But I would tell them do not go unless you are absolutely positive that is what you want to do or else you will be wasting money. If you want to be a doctor, make sure you shadow, research, shadow, research, etc. This goes for any profession.

If anybody wants a technical career I'd recommend the degree. I've known a number of people who went into programming without it. They were successful, but you know what they did with that success? Go back and get the degree later. It seems like they feel like they have a hole in their lives that needed filling.

So I'd definitely say to somebody to get the degree, but keep it at four years.

If someone were to ask me if they should go BACK to school I would probably say no.

Yeah

I remember Architect writing a post one time about how he went all the way through with getting started on a PhD when he realized he was "just adding a few decimals onto an already proven number" with his research. At least I think that is what he said but don't quote me. I guess that's kind of how I feel about academia.

That's right, but that is a PhD. I think a basic technical undergraduate (in math, physics or CS) is a good thing to get.

As a sign off, I can tell you something else that is great about programming. There is always something on the horizon - something more you could do, something more you could learn, something you could do better, something you could invent and show off. Computers are where it is at regarding true constant innovation all the time and fast. You don't get this in many fields - even the science fields. The science fields are actually very, very slow. There are very little knew things being discovered. I'm not saying it isn't happening or that it can't happen, I'm just saying it is slow. The best way to describe how I feel about programming is that it is like watching the sun rise. There is so much potential and it can always keep you fresh and the mind full of innovation, ideas, and creativity. INTP's need this.

Exactly right. I believe there is more to be found in computers than physics, because it is an invented thing.

 

[Happy]

I had no desire to go back to school, so I've been teaching myself with various online resources, including a rather decent Youtube video series.

Would you mind sharing a link to said series?

 

[Architect]

As a sign off, I can tell you something else that is great about programming. There is always something on the horizon - something more you could do, something more you could learn, something you could do better, something you could invent and show off. Computers are where it is at regarding true constant innovation all the time and fast. You don't get this in many fields - even the science fields. The science fields are actually very, very slow. There are very little knew things being discovered. I'm not saying it isn't happening or that it can't happen, I'm just saying it is slow. The best way to describe how I feel about programming is that it is like watching the sun rise. There is so much potential and it can always keep you fresh and the mind full of innovation, ideas, and creativity. INTP's need this.

Very true.

Distilling these ideas, which are applicable when looking at other careers

• Logical creativity and challange
• Autonomy and freedom
• Continual change and newness

Dream job ...

Actually this is probably the best formulation of the recipe for INTP fulfillment in any walk, whether as a teenager, retirement, career, etc.

 

[Happy]

Very true.

Distilling these ideas, which are applicable when looking at other careers

• Logical creativity and challange
• Autonomy and freedom
• Continual change and newness

Dream job ...

Actually this is probably the best formulation of the recipe for INTP fulfillment in any walk, whether as a teenager, retirement, career, etc.

Agreed. I can't even think of a single thing to add. Hit the nail on the head, I'd say.

 

[Architect]

Agreed. I can't even think of a single thing to add. Hit the nail on the head, I'd say.

I'm thinking on how to say it but I think there's one addition that needs to be made, which is INTP's need a goad. They need a boss, manager, partner, CEO/board of directors, audience or customer who is expecting something from them. A necessary irritant to spice up the creative mix.

 

[h0bby1]

i don't have any kind of diploma , but i started also very young, i was already getting linear algebra, matrix, spacial geometry, cross/dot products, and all before it was even remotly approached at school, so school always been very frustrating to me

at some point my math teacher registered me to a sort of programming contest, it has been really big turn in my life, cause there i could meet tons of great programmers, who gave me tons of courses, tools, ressources, i was maybe 15/16 at that time, it's where i also got first linux cd's, got into gcc and debian, it was about the beginning of linux, and got into it pretty quick, but at school we were barely learning to program exel macro in vb, and even the level in math was not corresponding to the thing i needed, it was stuff that was years ahead of the school program even if i was in a scientific cursus

when i finally got out of high school, i got to the contest for computering engineering school, but i was extremly disapointed by chatting with the other student, none of them really had any experience into any kind of programming or unix, i talked with the guy he told me something like 'i just read a book about C it seems rather hard' , i was already programming 3D video game with openGL on linux for some years, i was like yeah it will be much of a bore for me for at least 2 years

then there was a part of the contest when one had to speak with 3 year grade student, and they were asking me how i was doing some of the stuff i did, they didn't seem to know much more than me, so i was like if i have to wait 3 year to get to something that will eventually be usefull to me, i'd be better to learn on my own =)

then i was all the time involved into many project as well while being in school, and i met some people who talked about me to their boss, and got hired pretty quick, even on the first days, the technical director took me in his office when i started to pull out some design about how to do some stuff, they were all engineer, i always been rather disapointed at the level of most engineer in general, exept few of them, but they are the one who also did other project out of school

then after i made some contacts there and there, finally made my own company with other folks, and got in contact with also great programmers of the old school, people from the MIT, and other, them yes they are really good at what they do, they clearly taught me many things of design and general view of system, both windows and unix, and always been reading tons of books and docs and source code of anything i could put my hand on =)

one of the most important thing about school is that it put you in contact with lot of other person, cause either you want it or not, a vast majority of professional in the field come from a school or another, and have been lot trained to think in term of the different school, and specialisation, and the whole academic cursus, and to think mostly in term of academic cursus and career, and you will always find other people from same school and you can speak the same language than them in term of cursus, when you have no diploma, you always a bit come off as an alien

but most of the time from what i could see, exept for some specific position, they don't really mind if you have a diploma or not, if you can do the job, or when they ask for some specific level of education, it's more to indicate the kind of knowledge baggage that are asked, in math, or physics, or other field, but if you can do the job, and reliable, and know what you are doing, generally they don't mind much, but it can be much easier to have promotions and to apply to certain position, or negociate salaries when you have a diploma than when you don't, but if you are good, and can mannage to be dependable and efficient, it also generally get noticed at some point

 

[Happy]

I'm thinking on how to say it but I think there's one addition that needs to be made, which is INTP's need a goad. They need a boss, manager, partner, CEO/board of directors, audience or customer who is expecting something from them. A necessary irritant to spice up the creative mix.

I'd say not so much to spice up the creative mix, but to keep the INTP on track. I feel, as an INTP, that I can't function properly without some framework for keeping me on task.

 

[Analyzer]

When it comes to a degree, I really don't see a use for it especially in programming field. A reason a lot of people I think go back is to fill some kind of societal void, especially experienced programmers or they think they will make more money.

The cost-benefit of a degree does not add up anymore unless your going to become a doctor or state-licensed professional. Also, with all the online resources available to anyone with an internet connection colleges and universities are almost obsolete even doctors I believe in the future will be start through apprenticeships. As time goes on the whole going to college for the "experience and people you meet" argument will become less as collaboration and networking will only get easier in this digital age.

To fill the current void of the check mark or to compromise with the red tape a formal education allows, I am currently doing a programming certificate program that takes a year.

 

[Brachiosaurus]

I actually report in to my boss often without him asking so that I can show/tell him what I'm doing in order to keep myself producing. Sometimes I feel like I annoy him. I never actually thought I'd say that I wish he would ask for status updates just a little more (but not too much).