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I'm being drafted to the Army!

LPolaright

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No... I'm not as excited as the title suggests, I'm actually quite devastated for several reasons.

I'm being drafted at the 5th of December (The Sunday after the upcoming one)

Intro (Why am I being drafted?)

The story begins with my location - Israel. It is surrounded with enemy lines all around (Egypt, Lebanon, Syria and Jordan) and they all hate us (The Jewish people, the ones that took over the country), and might I say, for good reason.

Since the location is so inconvenient, we are at the state of emergency forever - and thus it let's the army draft new soldiers every year. So the army decided to draft the youngest people of them all - those who just finished High-School (18 yo) and to train them for combat.

I just finished High School and BaM! I'm being drafted.

The Process of being drafted (The how...)

It's important to know the process - just to understand the mentality of the IDF (Israeli Defense Force) - the fact that they are willing to take advantage of young enthusiastic (and stupid) children (Were only 18 for hell's sakes, our judgment is not developed yet).

So it all begins very subtle, at the beginning of your last year in High School you get a friendly letter with a medical questionnaire and an "invitation" to get to the first process of drafting which is called "The first order" - obviously it is not an invitation you can refuse, they will keep sending you that letter and after the 5th you will get locked up for a short period of time in jail for light treason.

And so you come there and do all kinds of intelligence quizzes to check how "smart" and "developed" you are mentally and what is your will to serve your country. Along-side it you have to go through medical processes to check your capability to serve and input details about yourself (phone, address - the usuals).
At the end of that day you are given a Profile number (general) and KABA (Intelligence specific number).

Profile numbers are:
97 (No medical defects, Medium to High KABA)
82 (Slight medical defects, Low to High KABA)
72 (Some medical defects, All levels of KABA)
64 (Serious medical defects, All levels of KABA)
42 (Mental and medical defects and/or felonies, low to medium KABA)
24 (Discharged because of serious Mental and medical defects and/or felonies, no need for KABA)

Basically 72 - 97 are people who can (*can is rather polite - what I actually mean is HAVE TO*) go to fight-y positions like Pilots, Guerrilla fighters, Snipers and such...

And 24-64 are people who can get small jobs: like the people that are in-charge of inducting, logistics, messing with computers and such...

Now, there are options to get out of fight-y places which include:
A) You are highly intelligent - therefore they will send you orders to other places you can be beneficent in, like computer technicians and/or technology researcher (These are very hard to get into)

B) You are highly intelligent - you can go to their special plan of - we provide you with half of the payment for the university and you learn a subject of your liking (after heavy filtering of non-intelligent or less-intelligent people of that course) for 3 years and get a degree - and then you have to come back to the army and serve it on a position that will fit your degree (if you learnt physics they will send you to the army's physics department)

C) You are not very intelligent and you break your legs in order to not go the fight-y places.

But all of these processes require you to apply BEFORE you get into the army - before your final induction day.

Few months later they will send you a MANILA - which is your position-preference in the army - which is very limited to each type (except for 64 and below). The army says it considers your application in the MANILA but I highly doubt it (at-least for 72 and higher).

A few months before you are inducted they will send you a letter with a date and an hour of which you have to get there and go through other processes like dental scanning, finger prints, medical examination and only then they tell you where you are going to serve.
At the end of the day you have to get on a bus and it will lead you to your boot-camp.

It's 3 months boot-camp for fight positions (72 - 97) and 1 month for other positions and might even be 2 weeks.

My Case - My Profile and Experience

I got a 72 because of:
Allergies to grass and dust
Migraines
Asthma attacks

It's quite ridiculous actually - you would expect that a man with such disadvantages would not be allowed to carry a weapon.

(we will get to my KABA later)

That's why I'm prone to have a fight-position in the army. But I didn't really think about that as much because I was busy receiving letters from the army:

The army sent me few letters from their central intelligence agency (yes, yes, it is our CIA controlled by the army - only it's more specific on the computers aspect. Meaning it has the same technologies (presumably) as the CIA and they need people to use it)

One letter is for a place to decode satellite pictures.
The letter gave me a location and time and I got there - they asked me to do tests and I did.
Few months later I got an interview - not very enthusiastic I did the mistake of telling that to the interviewer, saying that "I prefer something that is more challenging coding-wise". That was my biggest mistake - that is why they probably didn't take me. They looked for people with knowledge of 3D which I had (very unusual for Israelis in my age btw).

Another letter was for their main Coding program called - GAMMA.
They gave me a location with time and date and I got there - did the tests (which consisted of doing a questionnaire with limited option taking and another part of actually coding 5 programs in a limited time).
I passed the test, but I did one mistake. I learnt a week before the actual tests - Assembly... and then when I got there - I answered that section.
So the interview came, and apparently they are desperate for assembly users and/or I succeeded a lot in that part and thus they asked me tons of questions but I didn't go through my knowledge of assembly after learning it once - so you'd probably know what kind of a disaster it was.
The interesting part about Gamma is the fact that they gave us a test called "the 300 questionnaire" which has a lot of questions that a usual MBTI test will have, but it's 300 questions instead of the usual 40 questions.
Is it possible they tried to decide my MBTI? if so, I probably failed because I didn't answer truthfully, I wanted them to feel like I'm the ultimate soldier for knowledge.

3rd Letter was a program to start straight off as an officer - which requires a lot of Kaba (atleast 54 - which is quite high).
The letter stated a date and location, I got there and the tests were mainly social - commanding and interacting with a group. I think you know how that went for me (as an INTP I wasn't very cooperative of the Alpha males there and I told them they were douchebags and idiots).

4th and last letter was for a secret project - I have no idea what it is until this day but the interview went really well until I said "I will probably not pull a trigger to kill a person, I feel uncomfortable to press the red button and kill thousands of people" - that was probably a secret project for snipers - because they asked me questions about mechanical physics.

In the end, no one wanted me.

So now I'm waiting for my induction day.
Thing is, that usually when you get your date of induction you can induct where you are going to serve because the dates are published online and some people have connections to know where they are going and they publish the results online.

By my date - I'm going to be in the artillery unit (What... The... Hell... was my first expression).

There is an option though on the base to not get on the bus and ask for a different position - but the chances they will actually give you that position are slim and you have to ask for the logical and parallel position

Now... I have no idea what am I doing...
I'm probably going to ask to be at the Army policing and maybe be a detective for murder investigations (which is quite hard to get) and/or be the evaluating person that sits behind a desk and decides (plays god) who gets what (which doesn't fit my profile because it's made for the 64th profile).

Any thoughts? Any "good lucks"? Words of inspiration? Perhaps ideas?

Obviously I'm not going to be able to post much here in the forums because if I go to a fighting position I will come home once in two weeks (for a weekend).

Also, they intellectually INSULTED me. Thus if I won't be able to budge off a fighting position - I would be very very rude to them, and I'm willing to go to jail in the end.
 

The Gopher

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"detective for murder investigations" that sounds kinda cool. but everything else sucks well good luck I guess.
 

LPolaright

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"detective for murder investigations" that sounds kinda cool. but everything else sucks well good luck I guess.

I might have exaggerated that it's focused entirely on 'murder' - it is mainly being a "general" detective investigating all kinds of incidents. Regardless, you are right - it'll probably be interesting but I have the chance of 50 to 400 to get there and that's even assuming the course is opened this year and assuming I won't make ANY mistakes in the boot-camp.

Thank you. I hope I won't be stuck in jail.
 

EyeSeeCold

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Any thoughts? Any "good lucks"? Words of inspiration? Perhaps ideas?

Never get out of the boat.

But seriously. I don't have any experience, so I will just say show respect, it can make all the difference.

P.S. Is it weird that I was watching Hogan's Heroes while reading this?

P.S.S. Wouldn't let you?
 

Fukyo

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Ugh, that is horrible. It was a policy in my country up until this year. Once in my life was I grateful for being female.
 

LPolaright

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EyeSeeCold said:
Never get out of the boat.

I don't understand that statement... Could you please elaborate?

But seriously. I don't have any experience, so I will just say show respect, it can make all the difference.

I'm kind of sick showing respect - everyone does that, I guess at this sense I want to stand out for once because I have ideals that I want to keep in place.

I'm an intelligent person - I refuse to push a button that will crush tens of soldiers (even from the opposing side), I refuse to take part in any violent actions that will result in death - sure violence is necessity but I'm 100% the army can find tons of unintelligent personnels to replace me. I'm not a pacifist - I merely state that I will not be the one that kills human beings for the sake of the country that doesn't even know squat.

P.S. Is it weird that I was watching Hogan's Heroes while reading this?

Such references probably are not directed to me - because I don't understand them. I come from a different culture with almost no relations to TV channels beyond Israeli ones (Although that changes slowly). That's why I prefer "downloading" content from the internets when it comes to TV shows - and I am not familiar with Hogan's Heroes :o.

P.S.S. Wouldn't let you?

My parents control the financials, they would just cut me off.
My girlfriend controls my emotions, she will make me feel guilty or a coward because she got inducted as well.
My country wouldn't let me out.

I have no way out, other then breaking my legs (in that case I still get inducted, just a different role) or going to the psychiatrist to diagnose me with an illness I don't have (which will affect the rest of my life accordingly) or go to jail and stand my ground or lastly, I can give up and be at an artillery position (that will most likely be hurt if a war comes out) and be killed and/or feel guilty for every button I press possibly for the rest of my life.

Ugh, that is horrible. It was a policy in my country up until this year. Once in my life was I grateful for being female.

You are one lucky girl.
Here in Israel they induct everyone with no serious criminal record - girls, boys, gays, religious people and sometimes even pacifists.

I don't believe I'm saying this - but I wish I was a girl at this point... and maybe revert back after my service for the army is finished.


Tiny detail that I forgot to mention is that the boys serve 3 years in the army and the girls serve 2.
 

The Gopher

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Here in Israel they induct everyone with no serious criminal record - girls, boys, gays, religious people and sometimes even pacifists.

Whoa whoa whoa hold up I can get you a criminal record like that! But I guess you would end up if jail anyway.
 

Bird

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I hope you're safe.
 

Jesse

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Am I weird in not seeing inherently wrong with this? Your parents/grandparents knew the deal when moving to Israel. While it sucks for you, Israel is kinda stuck in this position. My advice is to go to jail. I really don't like the thought of murdering anything.
 

LPolaright

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Whoa whoa whoa hold up I can get you a criminal record like that! But I guess you would end up if jail anyway.

I award you with the most criminal comment here so far. :smoker: :beatyou: :twisteddevil:

If I go to jail, I'd go to an army jail because it is less punishing then a normal one.

I hope you're safe.

I award you with the most caring comment here so far. :angel:
Thank you, I hope I won't be raped when I pick up the soap in jail.

Am I weird in not seeing inherently wrong with this? Your parents/grandparents knew the deal when moving to Israel. While it sucks for you, Israel is kinda stuck in this position. My advice is to go to jail. I really don't like the thought of murdering anything.

I award you with the most logical comment here so far. :cool:

What's wrong is that my parents practically educated me to hate the country and then they expect me not to go to jail? My parents came to Israel because they were young and stupid and were following traditions because my grandmother (whose on my mothers side) is a control freak and pretty much a traditionalist.

You can stick to your thought of "not liking the thought of murdering anything" - but I have to go there and obey the rules to protect my country, I have two choices - either comply or go to jail. Jail seems the better choice for both of us (Good advice then my mate! :cool:).
 

preilemus

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Maybe you can find a bit of comfort in this.

Marshal's singularly unexpected discovery was that, of every hundred men along the line of fire during the combat period, an average of only 15 to 20 "would take any part with their weapons."
 

LPolaright

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Maybe you can find a bit of comfort in this.

Nope, can't find comfort. As a soldier in the artillery unit I'd just have to press the button - not even looking in their eyes. Such a cowardly act.

And if I do freeze and/or shoot over their heads, what stops them from killing me? Heck, they think I just tried to shoot them. I am not willing to die for my friends let alone my country.

The most likely scenario is that I take a selfish act and kill them anyway so they wouldn't hurt me - and that is really disgusting, the army forces us to use that side - when we could of hid it from ourselves almost forever.
 

EditorOne

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"Never get out of the boat" was actor Freddie Forrest's best line in the movie "Apocolypse Now." He was crew on a river navy boat in Vietnam, they pulled into shore for some reason, Freddie got out of the boat and stepped into the jungle and was immediately confronted with a pissed-off tiger. He jumped back aboard and sat huddled and traumatized, saying "never get out of the boat." New rule.

Good luck with this, however it turns out. I agree with the suggestion to work hard at manifesting the necessary respect and due regard for the rank system, it's critical to become part of the system if you ever hope to be in a position to work it for your benefit.

The problem with INTPs and the military is that we face a great deal of unpleasantness at the lower ranks before we rise to our natural, valuable level: High enough to be involved in innovative thinking that keeps weapons, training and tactics at an ever-changing and adapative level. There are INTPs in every army in the world, usually high-ranking staff officers who can quietly get good things done and are generally, by the time they are high-ranking, quite respected by their colleagues. While in the lower ranks, they stand out as defiant oddballs with incomprehensible motivations. That just makes the middle-grade officers nervous.
I'd try to either go for the officer post you mentioned and see if maybe you can make a go of this whole thing, or opt for a plebian role and just tough it out for the minimum time you have to serve.

I'm not sure this is the classic "draft." My understanding was that in Israel, as in a couple of other countries, everyone of a certain age has to do a certain minimum of military service unless there's a really good reason why you can't.

The only other thing I'll note is that you guys are in a tough deal, and whether you agree with the politics of what you find yourself doing or not, the other people in your immediate unit are the only thing that matters when the shit hits the fan. If, especially, you find yourself in a line unit, you need to focus on the bonding thing big-time, because those people are going to depend on you and you on them. The big picture gets very small and personal when the priority shifts from politics to survival for the next five minutes or whatever.

Good luck.
 

CoryJames

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I suggest that you just do your duty to the best of your ability in the allotted time and try to get home safely. The other options are worse.
 

The Gopher

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I suggest that you just do your duty to the best of your ability in the allotted time and try to get home safely. The other options are worse.

Yeah your probably right. What I would have said in medical problems though is bi-polar disorder (or uni-polar). That should stop you going in to the army over here at least.
 

walfin

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Poor you. Hasn't someone written a book on how to get into the secret projects so you don't have to go to combat units?

Over here, most of us do not even have these "special schemes" like in Israel, the option is either break a leg or convince the doctor that there is something very very wrong with it even though it's not broken. :p

You don't have to press the button, though, you could be a Forward Observer (all armies probably have this I think?). That way you get the privilege of extra tough training (since you'd probably have to climb hills and stuff). Oh, and they'd probably make you carry the shells and run anyway, just in case they need help in wartime. But at least you get to avoid pressing the button. All you do is watch the rain and watch your back.
 

CoryJames

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Isn't the forward observer in the most danger? While observing forward, whoever that is?
 

walfin

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CoryJames said:
Isn't the forward observer in the most danger?
But then he gets to avoid pressing the button.

CoryJames said:
While observing forward, whoever that is?
You'll be able to spot them, they're the ones kicking the ball.

Or kicking the balls.
 

LPolaright

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EditorOne said:
"Never get out of the boat" was actor Freddie Forrest's best line in the movie "Apocolypse Now." He was crew on a river navy boat in Vietnam, they pulled into shore for some reason, Freddie got out of the boat and stepped into the jungle and was immediately confronted with a pissed-off tiger. He jumped back aboard and sat huddled and traumatized, saying "never get out of the boat." New rule.

That sounds kind of like closing yourself "in the box" instead of getting out of it.

EditorOne said:
Good luck with this, however it turns out. I agree with the suggestion to work hard at manifesting the necessary respect and due regard for the rank system, it's critical to become part of the system if you ever hope to be in a position to work it for your benefit.

Thing is, there's an option for me not to go to bootcamp on the first place and ask for a different job. If I succeed I might be able to do so with no problem.

EditorOne said:
The problem with INTPs and the military is that we face a great deal of unpleasantness at the lower ranks before we rise to our natural, valuable level: High enough to be involved in innovative thinking that keeps weapons, training and tactics at an ever-changing and adapative level. There are INTPs in every army in the world, usually high-ranking staff officers who can quietly get good things done and are generally, by the time they are high-ranking, quite respected by their colleagues. While in the lower ranks, they stand out as defiant oddballs with incomprehensible motivations. That just makes the middle-grade officers nervous.
I'd try to either go for the officer post you mentioned and see if maybe you can make a go of this whole thing, or opt for a plebian role and just tough it out for the minimum time you have to serve.

The officer position they offered me before has already passed, I won't be able to get in anymore. But I can still be an officer if I would like to stay in the army for one more year (hell no), and in the beginning of that year I'll have to go through a very hard course and only then I'll be granted with the officer's rank.

EditorOne said:
I'm not sure this is the classic "draft." My understanding was that in Israel, as in a couple of other countries, everyone of a certain age has to do a certain minimum of military service unless there's a really good reason why you can't.

It's exactly that.

EditorOne said:
The only other thing I'll note is that you guys are in a tough deal, and whether you agree with the politics of what you find yourself doing or not, the other people in your immediate unit are the only thing that matters when the shit hits the fan. If, especially, you find yourself in a line unit, you need to focus on the bonding thing big-time, because those people are going to depend on you and you on them. The big picture gets very small and personal when the priority shifts from politics to survival for the next five minutes or whatever.

It is said that in the artillery there are a lot of ESFP types, you can probably guess how frustrating it would be for me. But in the end if I will be left out in a fighting position I guess there would not be any real choice - and I'd have to bond and possibly even change my preference whenever I'm there.

EditorOne said:
Good luck.

Thank you.

CoryJames said:
I suggest that you just do your duty to the best of your ability in the allotted time and try to get home safely. The other options are worse.

Going to army jail isn't that bad - there is a special jail for people who don't want to go and do their service, they treat them as best as they can. I'd be able to go home safe only if I wouldn't go to a fighting position - this is the worst option.

walfin said:
Poor you. Hasn't someone written a book on how to get into the secret projects so you don't have to go to combat units?

Books can burn :phear: (guess who burns them)

walfin said:
Over here, most of us do not even have these "special schemes" like in Israel, the option is either break a leg or convince the doctor that there is something very very wrong with it even though it's not broken.

Here we have to go to 2 doctors only to convince them my leg is broken and then 2 more doctors to examine the X-Rays, all of which will discuss if they will even consider to lower your profile.

walfin said:
You don't have to press the button, though, you could be a Forward Observer (all armies probably have this I think?). That way you get the privilege of extra tough training (since you'd probably have to climb hills and stuff). Oh, and they'd probably make you carry the shells and run anyway, just in case they need help in wartime. But at least you get to avoid pressing the button. All you do is watch the rain and watch your back.

Giving details about the target is the same as pushing the button.

They give guns to everyone in the army (except maybe for people that are lower than 64 (profile) ), and they train them to crawl, run, hide and shoot in any case.

CoryJames said:
Isn't the forward observer in the most danger? While observing forward, whoever that is?

My current boss at work was a forward observer, he said it's a shitty job but it's better then anything else in the artillery - other positions can damage your back, ears and legs.

Yeah your probably right. What I would have said in medical problems though is bi-polar disorder (or uni-polar). That should stop you going in to the army over here at least.

I can convince them I'm a sociopath if I wanted to, but thing is... It will affect my future in the civilian jobs.

Thank you all for caring/giving me ideas - but does anyone here has any kinds of questions?
 

EvilScientist Trainee

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I understand that you do not intent to be the responsible for harming innocent people. However, have you tried seeing this as a chance of defending innocent people in your country?

Of course, it's not that simple. You'll have to kill/help to kill people in the end, but the focus is somewhere else. The focus is on defending, not harming.

But then, you'll still have to deal with those ESFP types you mentioned. Going to jail is an option, but if shit happens, how will you feel about it?

However, I do not live there. My points are made from thousands of miles away, so i do not understand how it feels for you to be in that position. If I passed out as pretentious, that wasn't my goal.

In my opnion, I'd be a forward observer.
 

LPolaright

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I don't care for innocent people, I care for people regardless - We all have families, we all have friends that will miss us. Even the soldier on the other side has people that rely on him, and so does he.

I believe that it does not matter if one individual like me will stand his ground on the army and will not go to a fighting position that is swarmed with other people that like it (Underdeveloped ESFP's).

There is a very thin line between defending and attacking. None of us grasp it on the heat of the moment.

I respect the fact that you have a position about it, and I respect the fact that you will most likely feel very different about it if one day your country will be at state of war and force you to draft.

What kind of shit could happen in jail? It's a jail that is made for people just like me. If anything, I would have greatly intellectual conversations with people there - assuming they know what they stand for.
 

Trebuchet

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You have my best wishes. I understand (and agree with) your opinion on human life, and really appreciated your description of the process.

When I was in high school, some soldiers of the Israeli army came to California, I guess as an educational/good will thing, and explained to all the ignorant American kids what the Israeli army did and what life was like there. I wonder if there is still such a program? It didn't seem to involve violence, but there was aggravation. Some of my classmates asked things like can you can see the moon in Israel, and do you have showers there. And the two soldiers didn't even wince!

You do sound totally ill-suited to military life, but my dad enlisted in the US Air Force when he was 18, when the US was at war, and rather enjoyed himself. He is a very smart guy, and an INTP, so maybe it isn't such a mismatch.

How do you feel about your country and all the enemies on your borders? Is there a military job you could do willingly? If so, maybe you could request it. Being willing to serve in a particular capacity sounds better than being unwilling to serve in any capacity. I don't know if I could kill, either, and I might choose jail in your situation. But I am not sure that it would be evil for you to kill in war. It's a nasty question I never quite answered for myself. And I am grateful for the fact that I haven't had to in such an immediate way.
 

snafupants

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A friend of mine who graduated from high school back in 2003 went to Iraq straightaway from West Point. His convoy was attacked by a roadside bomb. The driver was lethally blasted with shrapnel. This friend of mine pushed the driver out the door and steered the car from jettisoning off a cliff. The truck had about a dozen troops in it. He, to my knowledge, has not been awarded anything yet. That whole scene is negative and wildly chaotic. War sucks.
 

dark

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I am deeply sorry you have been drafted. I actually attempted to join the United States Air Force, but because I am nearly blind they turned me down even though I got top scores on their easy test. I hope all those interviews you were subjected to were actually just a bunch of guys trying to fight over who gets you. But of course I do wish for a lot of things, hoping people are actually good...

I have no real advice for you. I always feared the draft as a child, you know in case the U.S. decided to reinstate it and make me die for something I didn't believe in. Of course that was an illogical fear (aren't they all?), and I hope you find yourself in a safe position you can enjoy.

War is bad no matter what it is fought over, the land is raped and so are the inhabitants of that land. But it doesn't mean you can't learn from it. The only advice I can give is this, take every bit of knowledge they can teach, even the smallest mundane thing, you may find it useful later in life. Even though this may be a scary time for you, take it as a challenge and learn everything, also it may help you develop your S functions, which I know would be very helpful in any situation.

Good Luck!
 

Zigomanis

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The story begins with my location - Israel. It is surrounded with enemy lines all around (Egypt, Lebanon, Syria and Jordan) and they all hate us (The Jewish people, the ones that took over the country), and might I say, for good reason.

Don't bring politics into this.
 

TheDrake

objective means purpose
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Victoria, BC
Don't bring politics into this.

But politics are integral to the situation at hand, are they not?

If it were me, and I didn't agree with the politics which are responsible for the war, I would choose jail.

_____

I appreciate you sharing your circumstances with us, LPolaright, and the fact that you seem to be willing to suffer unfavorable consequences due to following your principles.

I would like to ask a couple things:
-You are 18?
-What would you say is the general perception of people who choose to go to jail instead of war? Is there a stigma attached to that?
-Do you find many others of your age group to be struggling with this issue as much as you are?
-Do you think politics is relevant to this discussion?
-Does jail (in this instance) = a criminal record?


If you don't want to be directly or indirectly responsible for the deaths of others, you must learn to be responsible for your decisions.
Exactly, that's what I thought - but my parents and my girlfriend wouldn't let me.
My parents control the financials, they would just cut me off.
My girlfriend controls my emotions, she will make me feel guilty or a coward because she got inducted as well.
My country wouldn't let me out.
If you are old enough to go to war, you are old enough to make your own decisions, SO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THEM! these seem like excuses to me.

If it were me I'd choose jail, not only because I wouldn't want to be responsible for the death of others and it is the option most in line with my principles (aside from emigration), but also it seems it would be much more likely to establish meaningful personal connections with others who share similar values and principles.

If there were a stigma against the decision to go to jail, I would do what I can to embrace it for all it is so as to understand it on an experiential/existential level, and I would do what I can to write about your process, experience, and perspective and share it with others. I appreciate your efforts so far. Good luck.
 

LPolaright

Mentalist
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Messages
204
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Location
Israel
Trebuchet said:
You have my best wishes. I understand (and agree with) your opinion on human life, and really appreciated your description of the process.

Thank you.
Human life is sacred, because that is the only thing we have right now.
The process is much longer then that but my patience to write it all is rather short, I did not include other incidents in there, like the fact that I wrote in the manilla that I would not like to be in a fighting position under no circumstance.

Trebuchet said:
When I was in high school, some soldiers of the Israeli army came to California, I guess as an educational/good will thing, and explained to all the ignorant American kids what the Israeli army did and what life was like there. I wonder if there is still such a program? It didn't seem to involve violence, but there was aggravation. Some of my classmates asked things like can you can see the moon in Israel, and do you have showers there. And the two soldiers didn't even wince!

As soldiers, they are not allowed to wince... They teach you to be apathetic and do only what you are said, nothing beyond. Logic or feelings will not be tolerated.

As for the program, I'm sure there are many programs like that - but the profile that is needed for them is probably 64 (Which I cannot access) and probably requires a high level of English speaking to be present (I don't know if I'm that good).

As for the questions, we can see the moon clearly. And we not only have showers we also have modern houses and cities, everything you'd expect from normal countries - just a bit dirtier with sand and never snow.

Trebuchet said:
You do sound totally ill-suited to military life, but my dad enlisted in the US Air Force when he was 18, when the US was at war, and rather enjoyed himself. He is a very smart guy, and an INTP, so maybe it isn't such a mismatch.

I'm sure I would have had great time in the Air Force as-well, because it would involve learning how to fly a plane... But still there would be something wrong with every plane that will go down because of me.

Trebuchet said:
How do you feel about your country and all the enemies on your borders?

I feel that both sides have a very irrational explanation as to why they want this country, but I do sympathize with the hate of the other countries - probably because right now I'm in Israel, and I really don't want to be here.

Trebuchet said:
Is there a military job you could do willingly? If so, maybe you could request it. Being willing to serve in a particular capacity sounds better than being unwilling to serve in any capacity.

All the military jobs I want is for 64 profiles, I'm a 72 and there is a very definitive line between them. They wouldn't just let me go - otherwise tons of people will do so. But if I insist enough (which I intend to do) I will get a job for 64th profiles rather then 72nd and this rant will be over, but I could only hope for such a positive conclusion for everything here - and that would also require of me to probably go to jail for 3 months.

Trebuchet said:
I don't know if I could kill, either, and I might choose jail in your situation.
But I am not sure that it would be evil for you to kill in war. It's a nasty question I never quite answered for myself. And I am grateful for the fact that I haven't had to in such an immediate way.

I know that I could kill, but I know that I don't want to kill.

snafupants said:
A friend of mine who graduated from high school back in 2003 went to Iraq straightaway from West Point. His convoy was attacked by a roadside bomb. The driver was lethally blasted with shrapnel. This friend of mine pushed the driver out the door and steered the car from jettisoning off a cliff. The truck had about a dozen troops in it. He, to my knowledge, has not been awarded anything yet. That whole scene is negative and wildly chaotic. War sucks.

"All is fair in love and war". Both lead to disastrous places, psychologically and physically. I despise war - because it most certainly was created by irrational arguments and continued by even more irrational ones.

I'm sorry about your friend, and I wish him great recovery. What he did is incomprehensible, he truly deserves an award for that. But an award is never enough.

dark said:
I am deeply sorry you have been drafted. I actually attempted to join the United States Air Force, but because I am nearly blind they turned me down even though I got top scores on their easy test. I hope all those interviews you were subjected to were actually just a bunch of guys trying to fight over who gets you. But of course I do wish for a lot of things, hoping people are actually good...

It is a possibility they just fought over me and that is the conclusion - but the conclusion here sucks, and I'm sorry for that as-well.

By the way, if you were to ask for the air-force in Israel they would not take into account your vision problems unless they are extremely severe - and if you are able to write this message then you are most definitely qualified. Assuming you are reading it on your own. Assuming that you have no other health problems and a high kaba scoring - 97th profile.

dark said:
I have no real advice for you. I always feared the draft as a child, you know in case the U.S. decided to reinstate it and make me die for something I didn't believe in. Of course that was an illogical fear (aren't they all?), and I hope you find yourself in a safe position you can enjoy.

I wish I was only living in fear rather then living the fear.

dark said:
War is bad no matter what it is fought over, the land is raped and so are the inhabitants of that land. But it doesn't mean you can't learn from it. The only advice I can give is this, take every bit of knowledge they can teach, even the smallest mundane thing, you may find it useful later in life. Even though this may be a scary time for you, take it as a challenge and learn everything, also it may help you develop your S functions, which I know would be very helpful in any situation.

Good Luck!

This is what I intend to do, also - it is said that the army matures people there like no other country, it gives them a better sense of life.

Zigomanis said:
The story begins with my location - Israel. It is surrounded with enemy lines all around (Egypt, Lebanon, Syria and Jordan) and they all hate us (The Jewish people, the ones that took over the country), and might I say, for good reason.

Don't bring politics into this.

Not to be rude or anything, but did you actually read past that?
That is all you have to say?
"Don't bring politics into this"?

I live in a country of chaotic politics - I have a stand about my country which is miraculous comparing to all the people that surround me with dogmatic beliefs.

Israel brain washes children from young age in schools saying that their "fore-fathers" came here and obtained this country by god, and then they use it as an excuse to justify the fact that they took over this country in the modernized times. Tell me that is not wrong.

===========

Again, thank you all for the support and the caring, I don't know what I did to get these comments - as it seems I insulted every and each one of you at-least once in the forum.
 

EvilScientist Trainee

Science Advisor
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Evil Island #43
LPolarlight, one thing I noticed no one asked: How long does the military service lasts?

Are you able to serve your country but leave it as soon as you can? If there is a chance that wars are not going to start right now, you could do your civic duties and be back to your civilizan life. The army is not going to be cool or anything, but I don't know, a year of military and you leave wouldn't be such a bad idea, specially if the diplomatic/political atmosphere stays calm.

(Even though it's kind of unsettling to know that you're surrounded. I hope nothing bad happens. And you never insulted me, at least. You're kind of cool with that mentalist thing.)
 

LPolaright

Mentalist
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Messages
204
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Location
Israel
TheDrake said:
But politics are integral to the situation at hand, are they not?

If it were me, and I didn't agree with the politics which are responsible for the war, I would choose jail.

It's hard to choose jail, when you know that you still serve the army in a grand scheme even there.

I appreciate you sharing your circumstances with us, LPolaright, and the fact that you seem to be willing to suffer unfavorable consequences due to following your principles.

It's all a question of what is more "unfavorable" the ideal of serving a country you don't believe in - or the physical environment in jail.

I would like to ask a couple things:
-You are 18?
-What would you say is the general perception of people who choose to go to jail instead of war? Is there a stigma attached to that?
-Do you find many others of your age group to be struggling with this issue as much as you are?
-Do you think politics is relevant to this discussion?
-Does jail (in this instance) = a criminal record?

I am 18.

A lot of people that go to jail are either people that are lazy and/or don't wish to do jobs that requires physical fitness, people that want jobs higher then their profiles (for example a person with a 72 profile that wishes to be a sniper which is considered a job for the 97th profile, they wish not to participate in the artillery unit because it is an insult for their alpha male-ism), and people that stand on their beliefs (which are very few, I'll explain in a moment why)
The general perception is divided into three:
People that are lazy.
People that want too much.
People that have individual beliefs - other beliefs are treated in a systematic way - they would not let pacifists and arabs join the army, also they give a choice to people that are fanatic jews.

I've never met anyone that is struggling with this issue as much as I do. They probably have been brain-washed, and I've probably didn't mean that much of people.

I think each and every person finds different things relevant in this discussion - some think it's safety, other think it's patriotism, other opinions will include knowledge gaining, maturity and much much more that you can already spot in this discussion.
So in a way - i think every and each one of us is entitled to his own opinion in what is relevant here for him - politics is part of what makes me tick about this, but also the value of human life and intellectual gainings.

Jail doesn't mean a criminal record in this instant, unless I use any kinds of physical force on an officer or a soldier. The IDF makes people think that it would mean a criminal record and tries to brain wash people to assume that, they succeed and it results in less jail inhabitants.

If you don't want to be directly or indirectly responsible for the deaths of others, you must learn to be responsible for your decisions.

If you are old enough to go to war, you are old enough to make your own decisions, SO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THEM! these seem like excuses to me.

It's kind of hard to get out of the country when the country wouldn't let you - and it's even harder to sustain life without any kind of citizenship in the country I would like to immigrate in order to wash my self away from the duty of serving my country. I won't have a financial status and I won't exist anywhere but my own country that would have been very mad. Not to mention the depressive state I would be in - with the fact that I just let go of the person I relate to the most in order to escape my responsibilities as a citizen.

These are not excuses - these are variables that I would simply not change because it would lead into a non-existent future or in simple words === death.

If it were me I'd choose jail, not only because I wouldn't want to be responsible for the death of others and it is the option most in line with my principles (aside from emigration), but also it seems it would be much more likely to establish meaningful personal connections with others who share similar values and principles.

question is if they exist, and if they share the same beliefs and if they are willing to talk about it, and if we won't grow tired of each other.

If there were a stigma against the decision to go to jail, I would do what I can to embrace it for all it is so as to understand it on an experiential/existential level, and I would do what I can to write about your process, experience, and perspective and share it with others. I appreciate your efforts so far. Good luck.

There is a certain stigma against the decision to go to jail, because they are mainly perceived as people who don't want to do with anything that requires physical fitness although they are physically fit (which is somewhat true because of the population statistics of the people that go to jail).

But a different stigma occurs in correlation with pacifists which also receive the same treatment even though they do not go to jail is the fact that a citizen should serve his country because his country defended him all these years (18 years) and provided him with luxuries. We are perceived as ungrateful bastards, and in a way - we are, but we can serve our countries using different methods like stabilizing the economy by learning subjects that would help this country thrive.

I have pacifistic tendencies but I'm not truly a pacifist - I have some beliefs that contradict the ideal.

LPolarlight, one thing I noticed no one asked: How long does the military service lasts?

Are you able to serve your country but leave it as soon as you can? If there is a chance that wars are not going to start right now, you could do your civic duties and be back to your civilizan life. The army is not going to be cool or anything, but I don't know, a year of military and you leave wouldn't be such a bad idea, specially if the diplomatic/political atmosphere stays calm.

(Even though it's kind of unsettling to know that you're surrounded. I hope nothing bad happens. And you never insulted me, at least. You're kind of cool with that mentalist thing.)

Military service lasts for 3 years to males and 2 years for females. After the main military service a person is obliged to come back to the army every year for one month to check that he is still valuable and remembers his training.

I am able to serve my country but leave it as soon as I can as long as I withdraw Israeli citizenship, and will not stay for over a year, and receive a different citizenship from another country.

Question is how calm the diplomatic/political atmosphere is right now? Not-very, we're on the verge of a war, hell we've been to a war not so long ago (2005) if I'm correct...

It is very unsettling to know you are surrounded, and much more frustrating to understand that they are exactly like Israel, only they have different beliefs. Both will clash their fists until one of them breaks their hand - and by the looks of it, there is a probability we will destroy each other and the coin will land on the middle rather then on either sides - because Nuclear attacks are viable.

Very interesting points.
(I guess this is now the real test for my mentalism - try and maybe hypnotize an officer to release me :phear:)
 

Lobstrich

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Exactly, that's what I thought - but my parents and my girlfriend wouldn't let me.

Wouldn't let you? You can do whatever you want, you're 18! And adult!
You are the one who decides what you want. Not your girlfriend (no matter how much you love her) Or your parents (No matter how the father/son hierarchy is, or how much you and your mother love each other)

Here in Denmark we have drafting as well. It's way way more easy to slip through the system. We do not need as many soldiers so the amount of people they force to come in for 6 months is not very high.
And a guy like you, they would have said "You can go home" the minute you would have mentioned any kind of asthma and those kinds of allergies.

But what I am trying to say is that I know how it feels being drafted when you do not want to be in the army. needless to say that I have NO chance of getting in to combat unless I sign up as a 'real' soldier. Where you could be sent right away, if that was needed. (At least that's what I gathered) My point with this story is just to back up my initial statement. You can do whatever you want, and if you do not want to be in a country where they force people into the army..... Then leave!
 

Zero

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Well I don't know exactly what you're going through (other than your explanation, I mean I don't know what it feels like) and what your country's policies are beyond what you wrote. I know your country is in a "hot spot" (I think that's what they've been calling it). I sympathize with you, no one should be forced to surrender their lives to war, and I hope you can find a way to avoid it.

I know a Finn who has to do the same thing. I think there are other options, but I think he'll end up going through military training. I don't think he'll be going to war though or that the threat of war is close at hand.

It seems the last time the US drafted was the Vietnam War, but some say that the drafting simply didn't stop from WW2. Apparently the draft wasn't for all citizens either, it was a lottery for males between 18-35.
 

Reluctantly

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Any thoughts? Any "good lucks"? Words of inspiration? Perhaps ideas?

Okay! Know any loopholes? You mentioned some reasons for why they wouldn't let someone into the military. Try one of those. Do they not let gay people in? Consider kissing a dude just so they don't let you in. Find a medical issue. Mention that you broke a bone or had a medical issue that will cost them a fortune if they recruit you and have to pay for huge medical costs if the issue returns.

Your situation sucks, but there's got to be a loophole.
 

PINT

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You are going to be a slave, owned by the lunatics who have the most political power in the region where you happen to have been born.

Why do your parents want you to be a slave? Does this demonstrate that they "love" you?

Which of the following is more admirable?

1. A slave who obediently kills everyone his Master orders him to kill;

2. A slave who refuses to submit to slavery and who is therefore locked in a building with other disobedient slaves?

Which type of slave would you admire the most?
 

LPolaright

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Israel
Lobstrich said:
Wouldn't let you? You can do whatever you want, you're 18! And adult!
You are the one who decides what you want. Not your girlfriend (no matter how much you love her) Or your parents (No matter how the father/son hierarchy is, or how much you and your mother love each other)

You can do whatever you want, and if you do not want to be in a country where they force people into the army..... Then leave!

PINT said:
Why do your parents want you to be a slave? Does this demonstrate that they "love" you?

You both seem to ignore the impossibility of that, I can't sustain life without anyone close to me, all I have is family and my girlfriend without them I won't have much to live for.

Needless I'm to say that I've already discussed this on the topic regarding the actual thing that would have stopped me if I was willing enough to drop everything and immigrate to another country:
LPolaright said:
It's kind of hard to get out of the country when the country wouldn't let you - and it's even harder to sustain life without any kind of citizenship in the country I would like to immigrate in order to wash my self away from the duty of serving my country. I won't have a financial status and I won't exist anywhere but my own country that would have been very mad. Not to mention the depressive state I would be in - with the fact that I just let go of the person I relate to the most in order to escape my responsibilities as a citizen.

These are not excuses - these are variables that I would simply not change because it would lead into a non-existent future or in simple words === death.

Lobstrich said:
Here in Denmark we have drafting as well. It's way way more easy to slip through the system. We do not need as many soldiers so the amount of people they force to come in for 6 months is not very high.
And a guy like you, they would have said "You can go home" the minute you would have mentioned any kind of asthma and those kinds of allergies.

But what I am trying to say is that I know how it feels being drafted when you do not want to be in the army. needless to say that I have NO chance of getting in to combat unless I sign up as a 'real' soldier. Where you could be sent right away, if that was needed. (At least that's what I gathered) My point with this story is just to back up my initial statement.

Sounds like fun there, wish I was being drafted there rather then here - seems like a much more rational country. Although it does all depend on the situation you are at.

Well I don't know exactly what you're going through (other than your explanation, I mean I don't know what it feels like) and what your country's policies are beyond what you wrote. I know your country is in a "hot spot" (I think that's what they've been calling it). I sympathize with you, no one should be forced to surrender their lives to war, and I hope you can find a way to avoid it.

I know a Finn who has to do the same thing. I think there are other options, but I think he'll end up going through military training. I don't think he'll be going to war though or that the threat of war is close at hand.

It seems the last time the US drafted was the Vietnam War, but some say that the drafting simply didn't stop from WW2. Apparently the draft wasn't for all citizens either, it was a lottery for males between 18-35.

I agree, the country is in a "hot spot" - there is a rational need to draft anyone they can. But they would not get good results from people that would not like to fight under no circumstances.

Drafting is a problem in countries that are away from the actual war like the US. Because they mainly need people who want to be there - and there aren't much of people like that. Most people would use the argument of "The war is far away, I don't want to parachute into the enemy lines! I would like to defend!"

There is a possibility there wouldn't be a war here in Israel too. And perhaps there wouldn't be in all years of my service, but the chance of it happening is too great - and it could be anytime, in a blink of an eye. Thus I would prefer not to indulge myself with military training and ignore that chance (Not that I'm saying you told me to do that, just saying).

Okay! Know any loopholes? You mentioned some reasons for why they wouldn't let someone into the military. Try one of those. Do they not let gay people in? Consider kissing a dude just so they don't let you in. Find a medical issue. Mention that you broke a bone or had a medical issue that will cost them a fortune if they recruit you and have to pay for huge medical costs if the issue returns.

Your situation sucks, but there's got to be a loophole.

Ah! I knew somebody like you would post eventually! (In a good way)

I know many loopholes -
1) Be a pacifist
2) Be an extreme Jew
3) Be an Arab
4) Be pregnant
5) Break your kneecaps
6) Be clinically insane, depressed or suicidal
7) Have a life threatening chronic disease (AIDS, Cancer, Diabetes etc...)

Why I can't use any of them:

1) They ask you if you're a pacifist on the first drafting day (back when you are 17 and you have no ideals or worldview) - if you were to change your worldview all of the sudden they are going to interview everyone in your life including the teachers, friends, enemies and etc... and at the first sign of people saying "yea, he was violent when..." they drop it and say "You are going to be a combatant, you are not a pacifist".
2) I would have to be very convincing - they will interview anyone I know, and me for the knowledge of the bible.
3) Simply can't, I'm already Jewish in my citizenship.
4) Physically can't.
5) I would prefer to sit in jail.
6) That would affect the rest of my life, I would prefer sitting in jail.
7) Again, I would have to be very convincing - diagnosed - and I would probably not want any of these diseases.

Sitting in jail is the greatest loophole in this whole mess - after sitting there for 3 months they ask you if you are willing to serve anywhere - if you say yes you will begin your duty with a place of your choosing (most of times, unless it's highly illogical), if you say no you will sit there for another 4 months and they ask you again, saying know will result with you sitting there for 5 months and then they would most likely release you.

If they see a valid enough reason why you would not serve after the first 3 months (aka you turned into a pacifist) they will let you go, but that doesn't happen too much.

Is there any loopholes you thought about other then being gay? Because they don't care for gay people, the most they give them is a separate shower times.

You are going to be a slave, owned by the lunatics who have the most political power in the region where you happen to have been born.

Amen to that.

Which of the following is more admirable?

1. A slave who obediently kills everyone his Master orders him to kill;

2. A slave who refuses to submit to slavery and who is therefore locked in a building with other disobedient slaves?

Which type of slave would you admire the most?

Obviously the second, but you assume here that the slave doesn't want to kill - there are slaves here who do want that.
I'm not like that, so if the argument is presented to me I would rather take the second one.

If you are referring to my parents and their choice - they are irrational and subjective - all they want is for me to stay as close as possible to home and safe. To them jail = not safe, not home. Military service = safer then jail, home every 2 weeks.

I'm probably going to jail but I think I found a way to lower my profile to 64.

I think I found a loophole in the system.

I'll get back to you guys after I research it some more.
 

Lobstrich

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You both seem to ignore the impossibility of that, I can't sustain life without anyone close to me, all I have is family and my girlfriend without them I won't have much to live for.

I didn't ignore anything.
You can do whatever you want. Saying you can't live without them is not true. Yes you can, will you die if they are gone? No.

I wasn't trying to make you move, I know how it is when you have people you don't want to leave, I am like that myself. The only thing I was trying to say is that you CAN do whatever you want, including leaving if you want to.
 

LPolaright

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Israel
I didn't ignore anything.
You can do whatever you want. Saying you can't live without them is not true. Yes you can, will you die if they are gone? No.

I wasn't trying to make you move, I know how it is when you have people you don't want to leave, I am like that myself. The only thing I was trying to say is that you CAN do whatever you want, including leaving if you want to.

Notice that everyone CAN do everything.

But when someone says they can't it really means - they are ignoring this possibility because it doesn't seem valid to them and/or they really don't want or dislike it.

I can fly (Jump off a roof and wave my hands), but I know that in the end of that flight I will die, thus - I can't fly.
The semantics and definitions for everything matters here when someone says he "can't" or "can" do something.
 

Lobstrich

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Notice that everyone CAN do everything.

But when someone says they can't it really means - they are ignoring this possibility because it doesn't seem valid to them and/or they really don't want or dislike it.

I can fly (Jump off a roof and wave my hands), but I know that in the end of that flight I will die, thus - I can't fly.
The semantics and definitions for everything matters here when someone says he "can't" or "can" do something.

Whatever you think "can't" means, doesn't matter to me. All I care about is the definition of the word. No you can't fly, because jumping off a roof and flailing your arms around doesn't mean flying. It means jumping off the roof.

And when you say can't leave your familiy you're implying that you literally can't what you're looking for is "want"



And I'm not trying to be an ass, going all 'grammar nazi' or whatever you call it. But I felt it necessary to point out that you CAN leave if you want to, because it seemed to me that you thought you really couldn't (which you can, but do not want to)
 

LPolaright

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Whatever you think "can't" doesn't matter to me. All I care about is the definition of the word. No you can't fly, because jumping off a roof and flailing your arms around doesn't mean flying. It means jumping off the roof.

And when you say can't leave your familiy you're implying that you literally can't what you're looking for is "want"



And I'm not trying to be an ass, going all 'grammar nazi' or whatever you call it. But I felt it necessary to point out that you CAN leave if you want to, because it seemed to me that you thought you really couldn't (which you can, but do not want to)

Nah, that's ok mate - I realize I can.

Hell, many times I really wanted to - but I know I won't like the end result too much.

Maybe I'm confused a little bit with Hebrew - although they too have the word "can't".
It seems to me that a lot of people use that word in the context of "I really really really don't want to" - and to be a little bit more cooperative I started using this word as-well. Clearly a mistake - it is an exaggeration.



As to flying - it depends on your definition of flying.
Flying doesn't have to consist with successfulness landing does it?
Can I change direction while flying? Yes it's a necessity - thus if I would like to, I can get huge underpants and use them for directional control.


======

But we are clearly getting off topic.
 

walfin

Democrazy
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2,436
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/dev/null
Good luck with the loopholes!

Hey, the jail option actually sounds quite good. It's like...1 year instead of 3 years. The criminal record won't cause problems later on? Over here going to jail would take one more year and so pretty few people choose that even though the dissenters get treated reasonably well compared to normal military prisoners.
 

BitRogue

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Messages
65
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UK
Hi, sorry that I haven't spotted this topic until now, but Im not that big on forum socializing and I tend to just hang out from time to time in the INTP section.

That said, may I ask how old you are? And whether this is just standard Israeli conscription and how long will it be for?

I come from South Africa and I had to do 2 years of military service after I left school. Later it was changed to one year due to all the political changes which were happening in my country. But psychologically, when I went in, I was of the understanding that I was going away for two years and I thoroughly hated the anticipation of that. I was 17 at the time. Too young to watch an 18 restricted movie and considered underage for sex.

Worse, I didn't get to go to the corps I initially signed up for. They said they had their quota, so they sent me to mechanized infantry. To Upington which is bang in the middle of the Kalahari Desert, a hellhole if there ever was one (or so I thought at the time).

I can wax lyrical about all the tribulations that I went through during that one year. But a few key things I can say are things which kept me focussed during that time.
The first 2 weeks are the worst because you are so way out of your element that you actually don't know what hit you. There were 5 suicides on base during those 2 weeks alone just in our company. If there were more in the other companies, I didnt hear about them, but Im sure there were. You are essentially ground into the dust by your commanding officers because the first thing they try and instil in you is discipline. This is where superiority of mind comes in, and INTPs are brilliant at this. We're used to being alone. We're used to people teasing us at school and trying to break down our moral fibre. Hell, from that point of view, it was a walk in the park because your lance corporal doesnt actually know you personally so he can't get personal. Although he'll quickly spot slackers so its worthwhile going in if you're used to a bit of exercise. (I was doing cycling 3 days a week until that point).

Which brings me to my next point, excersize and fitness. You'll get a lot of that. Because you need to be able to run and dodge bullets while on a 50km route march, and I guarantee you that you wont be ready for that the day you join even if you are fit. The problem is how they go about doing that. Its all about discipline (see above point) so they grind you into the ground telling you that you're a nobody and send you for a run around the parade ground as punishment for being a useless idiot. The thing is, you see, once you've figured out this strategy, that its actually not personal, you can actually laugh at it all inside and do the whole trip with good humour. (Dont laugh out loud, thats more grounds for further punishment exercises).

What you have to remember though is that you are not the only one. Everyone gets treated the same way, everyone is in the same boat. What matters is your attitude. MB typing means little in your first days of the army, other than being able to have a strong clear mind about things and be able to reason yourself out of digging yourself into a very deep dark black pit of despair.

My suggestion, take some books with you to read to keep your mind off of things in your spare time. You might even make friends like this - I used to lend all my books out and became quite popular, even tho I was very quiet. I even got to counsel people who came to me because they saw I was coping just fine with things.

So, basic training is the worst because they try and strip you of any dignity, and teach you discipline and make you fit. Once basic training is over, things do start to get a bit better (well, based on your attitude at least), because you start specialization training. I was able to get into a signals role which meant I got to play with radios. TECH!!! :D (Which is partly why I am now a ham radio operator). Also, it dawned on me that mechanised infrantry, being what it is, is mechanised, so we were not foot soldiers (yayness!!) The third phase of training is where all the specialized divisions come together to do combat practice. This is particularly fun (again, based on your attitude) because you start to see how everything hangs together, the artillary, engineers, signals, infantry, air force, logistics, medics and the chefs (make friends with these guys!!). There is much for an INTP to be fascinated with here.

In my case, after training, our platoon got selected to be deployed in some of our hot spots during the apartheid uprising and freedom election period when Mandela got released and got to see some action. Not a full war mind you, but its a bit of reality that got thrown my way.

OK, well, this is all well and good, but one thing I always tell people who are amazed that I was in the military is that it was the best time of my life that I wish I never have to do again. Where else in the world do you get to destroy a mountainside with every possible weapon you can get your hands on. In the army you will get the opportunity to play with equipment you would never normally have the opportunity to use in your normal civilian life. We got to drive in tanks, recon and rapid deployment vehicles. Watch G5 cannons destroy old cars and trucks. You will visit places that are otherwise restricted and out of bounds, and some of these places are very interesting indeed. Pacifist or not, the experience is worth it in gold.

So while everyone else is giving you some very arbitrary advice to get out of it, or being plain sympathetic, what I can honestly say is that unless you have a trump card up your sleeve, you are probably going to go. So you might as well stare it straight in the eye and say 'Lets do it'.

The things you need to arm yourself with going in is
1) Psychological awareness. As stated above, they will grind you into the ground. This is all an act in order to instil discipline and fitness. Which in truth are both vital, it just sucks that they do it the way they do.
2) A good attitude. Not a snotty one - this will get you into all sorts of trouble. But if you tow the line, you'll get through OK. And get involved with your platoon. You will need their friendship like you have never needed anything else. Don't rat on them, even if you decide you're not going AWOL into town for the night with them. Protect them and they will protect you when you screw up another day.

And lastly, you really just need to get through the first few weeks. You have been ripped away from friends, family and everything you are familiar with. See it through and it will soon be OK. Soon you will be getting letters and parcels from your girlfriend and family and you will eagerly tear open the envelopes like everyone else to see news and gifts from them. And your heart will stop and your eyes will tear over when you read what they have to say. For your life in the army, you are tied to fate and God. Let it be, and enjoy the experience, for what its worth. You will come back with fascinating stories to tell, you will grow as a person, and people will be amazed at the stories you have to tell. Dare I say, you could be the life of the social gathering on some evenings when people find out about your unique stories. :) Or when you meet other guys who did the army and can chat and reminisce and look down on all those civvie folk who don't have a clue what you're talking about.

If you have any questions, fire away.
 

PINT

Dyslexic INTP
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Nov 28, 2010
Messages
23
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Its all about discipline (see above point) so they grind you into the ground telling you that you're a nobody and send you for a run around the parade ground as punishment for being a useless idiot.

Interesting post! I liked reading about your experiences and viewpoint.

I notice you used the word "discipline" at least twice (as above) - maybe more.

The army is always talking about how "disciplined" their soldiers are. I think they use that word intentionally because it suggests the soldiers have an admirable quality. But they don't. Soldiers are "obedient", not "disciplined." They are blindly, reflexively obedient. I think that is the exact opposite of an admirable quality.

A person who goes into the army will not learn discipline. He will learn obedience. He will learn to do things that a person with principles and a conscience would never do in a million years. He will learn to kill every person his owners order him to kill.


Pacifist or not, the experience is worth it in gold.

I would agree with you, but only if there was no danger of a soldier being forced to commit murder. I believe the Israeli army routinely murders innocent civilians (by dropping bombs in areas occupied by civilians, for example). Participating in murder is not worth any potential reward. A person who participates in murder will never recover. He becomes a person whose life will never be worth living.

Thousands of veterans of illegal wars in the Middle East have discovered this, too late. Their suicide rates are enormous.


Obviously I have strong opinions about this topic. You wrote an excellent, enjoyable post and I can see that you really did benefit from your experiences. But I still have to speak up because murder is serious business and I can't really get past that. Being in the army in a peaceful country like Switzerland is one thing, but becoming a soldier for the benefit of murderous politicians in places like Israel and the U.S. is an extremely bad idea.
 

LPolaright

Mentalist
Local time
Tomorrow 12:24 AM
Joined
Oct 27, 2010
Messages
204
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Location
Israel
First of all - BitRogue, you have made an excellent post - though long I read it all very cautiously and at the first sign of me being defensive I've stopped, took a break, counted to 10 and continued reading with indifference.

It shows your experience with the army and how it felt which is quite amazing - I think it should deserve a thread of it's own, seriously it's that good - I hope you share more of it with us down here in the forums.

Also, looking at it as future point-of-view will be very different from what happens in the present and past... So I might come off as a very stubborn person that wouldn't care for anyone there but what really would happen is me being stubborn towards the commanders sometimes but not involving anyone on my team (which is quite rare, because most punishments are group ones - atleast here in Israel to suppress this kind of ass-holeness). Who knows maybe I will convince them too.

But your point of view made me realize that we really are on the same boat and we have a shared experience so I might as-well make it worthwhile for them and me. Which will mean that all my assholeness would be pointed to the commanders strictly with knowledge that they (my team) wouldn't get affected.

PINT did make a legitimate argument though - they don't really teach discipline - they teach obedience, they break you to be submissive and they won't recognize any kinds of dominance because it's not a democracy there. "They might call it Discipline but it really is Obedience" I concur.

I do have trouble with this and thus I will point it out to my commanders everytime I find an action immoral - actually there is a law here in Israel that states: "A soldier should not under any circumstances do immoral decisions even if the commander strictly or not strictly commanded them to do so", the catch here is that that same soldier will go to jail anyways.

Best solution that would both fit my ideology and won't affect any team members is going to jail before I go to boot-camp and/or get any team members at all - or to go to non-combatant positions where I don't have to make that kind of decisions.

The option that a situation would occur when soldiers will jump out of nowhere as an ambush to my convey for example gives me the creeps because I have absolutely no idea what I would do that instant - I will probably shoot them all, but will get PTSD afterward, or worse - I will feel indifferent to that situation.

I could benefit from the experience, so can the army. It's just a question of what position do I receive - it seems rather childish but I really don't care other people's decisions about these situations (shooting people in the head and feeling or not guilt) as long as these people are not in my immediate environment and I don't have a relationship with them and thus I can fully operate in other positions that would contribute to the army but I wouldn't have to push the trigger - now it is a question of how do I present it to the army.

If I'm going to jail I'd probably have to present my whole ideology which is quite complicated as you see - I will not press a button to kill people, but I don't care other people will do that - but I do care that people die because of that and I do care if the man that killed the other group of people is feeling indifferent or enjoyment I will hate him, if he feels remorse and guilt I will let mercy on him because it was probably not his choice.

My caring of dying people is strong and based - but I realize it's inevitable, because it's people's nature and it would happen anyways if not here then somewhere else but it disgusts me and I would not like to be responsible for that for it will have great psychological effects on me.

And no, I don't care the army provides with psychological care - it's irreparable damage that can't be taken away from me because it's embedded in my memory and sadly we don't have any memory wipes yet.

In relation to the physical fitness - the IDF here gives great care towards it because they are ultimately responsible for anything that will happen to the soldier, and thus they will make me a special plan considering my physical fitness once I come there. Slowly they will train me and build me up towards a combatant, if I will get to that position - so no need to worry about that too much, it's part of what makes the IDF as one of the best armies (out of necessity - being in the hotspot and all...).

Comparing U.S and Israel or any other countries is a terrible mistake yes - but they did not compare too much, they merely stated their experience from their armies. It's we who are comparing PINT. Atleast that's what I think.

Did I miss anything?
I don't know, anyways I've worked in a high-tech firm for the last 5 months and they gave me a letter of recommendation - a rather good one, you think it'll help me with courses not related to high-tech? as an affirmation to "he is disciplined, he will do that job, he is creative and focused and "gets" subjects fast"? Or would the army ignore that letter if I apply to other jobs because it's says in the end "we think he has a lot of potential in the technological aspect and we know he would succeed" - funny enough that's almost exactly what my army rejection letters told me (the ones I received from the courses).
 

BitRogue

Member
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Today 9:24 PM
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Mar 15, 2010
Messages
65
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Location
UK
OK, thanks for reading my post objectively. You guys made some valid points however, but I wanted to point out that the intention for that post was purely on being as objective about the experience as possible. I made a point not to bring ethical views and moral opinion into it. I just wanted to show a clearer picture about what life was like there and how to deal with it.

I think mostly what you guys have touched upon starts stemming from personal values and outlook on life. In order for me to reply to most of your observations though, Im going to have to draw on personal opinion. In no way do I want to change your thoughts on the matter, but it might serve to give you a more rounded outlook on the subject.

A person who goes into the army will not learn discipline. He will learn obedience. He will learn to do things that a person with principles and a conscience would never do in a million years. He will learn to kill every person his owners order him to kill.

Technically discipline is more than just obedience, but yes, it includes obedience. Discipline is about having your wits about you when you probably would not have if you had not been through some form of training. Discipline is not punishment, but punishment is mostly seen as discipline (even though thats not always the case). But its true that you will need to obey your commanding officers order. An army without order and hierarchy is not an army, its a mob.

I do have trouble with this and thus I will point it out to my commanders everytime I find an action immoral - actually there is a law here in Israel that states: "A soldier should not under any circumstances do immoral decisions even if the commander strictly or not strictly commanded them to do so", the catch here is that that same soldier will go to jail anyways.
Right, so this obedience thing is to really obey your commanding officer. We are all ultimately responsible for our own actions however. (For perspective, I am a strong Christian, so morals and ethics feature strongly in how I act in life, even if I dont get it right very often). Firstly, I just want to point out that if you start at the bottom, you do not have the whole picture, so you will certainly need to obey your immediate commanding officer. He will know better on things like when to move out, where to go, what your objectives are etc etc. He's slightly more involved in the big picture than you are. But even him and his immediate superior are pretty much bogged down in specifics to really know much about whats REALLY going on. That starts happening on the CO (Commissioned officer) side of things at around Major level. So if you're going to question an order, think first where it came from and how it might fit in a bigger picture.
But ... on the other hand, Im all for questioning an order if it goes against my moral fibre. I WILL not shoot a person outright under order. Im prepared to go to jail for that - absolutely. But since you will be tried, if you have witnesses and a real good reason why you disobeyed, you have a good chance of getting off. (See the movie Crimson Tide for where an NCO disobeyed his commanding officers orders. The movie made a fair statement)
Usually in a country of fairly stable and positive ethical standards, you will find that for the most part their army will be fairly well off psychologically and you will not be faced with those kinds of decisions. Keep in mind that even your commanding officer is a human being who probably came from the village next door, so he may well have a similar outlook as you and question is superior.

In my experience when I was out doing patrols, none of our platoon, or our company as a whole, ever got called in for questionable actions. Despite our differences, our platoon were a fairly reasonable bunch of guys and none of us were inclined to shoot first and ask questions later. Our corporals were pretty much one of us and many times they wouldnt let us do something because it was too dangerous or they werent sure of the outcome so they would pull us back.

I would agree with you, but only if there was no danger of a soldier being forced to commit murder. I believe the Israeli army routinely murders innocent civilians (by dropping bombs in areas occupied by civilians, for example). Participating in murder is not worth any potential reward. A person who participates in murder will never recover. He becomes a person whose life will never be worth living.
In my weapons training we were taught to always exercise something called minimum force (this a translated expression, I was trying to think of a better English phrase). We were given the same lecture again before we got deployed into hot zones. Basically it means that if you're going to pull the trigger, first always fire a warning shot. Then if you have to shoot him, always aim to disable, ie the legs or the arms. Only kill when you have no choice, your life is in danger and there is no chance of any negotiation. Now you can debate that last sentence all you like, but it really comes down to you and how you see the situation. And how clear minded you are at the time (how disciplined are you under pressure?)
For me, I dont ever want to be faced with having to actually shoot anyone, let alone kill the person.
(for anyone whos interested, Dan Carlin makes an excellent podcast called Hardcore History and over the last year he did a 4 part series on the Eastern Front of the second world war - Ghosts of the Ostfront - where he questions how normal human beings were able to commit the atrocities that were depicted in that war against the Russians and the Germans on each side. I dont have the link but you can Google it. LPolaright - I suggest you dont listen those podcasts, given your current situation)

I'm not going to comment on Israels ideology. What I can say, PINT, is that since its only your belief that Israel routinely bomb innocent civilians on purpose, is that that belief is not fact. But also, even the best make mistakes. Since you dont ACTUALLY know, I find it hard to make sound judgements like that without having more data. And I dont consider the press to be the entire truth. I remain as neutral as possible until its clear where the blame lies.

I don't know, anyways I've worked in a high-tech firm for the last 5 months and they gave me a letter of recommendation - a rather good one, you think it'll help me with courses not related to high-tech? as an affirmation to "he is disciplined, he will do that job, he is creative and focused and "gets" subjects fast"? Or would the army ignore that letter if I apply to other jobs because it's says in the end "we think he has a lot of potential in the technological aspect and we know he would succeed" - funny enough that's almost exactly what my army rejection letters told me (the ones I received from the courses).
Well, Im not sure if you were given the option to apply for different corps. Many of my friends joined all at the same time and it seemed like I was the only idiot who got thrown into infantry. My one friend made me quite jealous by getting himself selected into the intelligence corps where he ended up staying at home and catching the train in to the units base in the centre of town where he got to play on computers all day.
Another mate went to Engineering where he got to play with bridge builders and some heavy duty machinery. While you will still have to do your basic bootcamp training where you will be assigned a rifle for the rest of your military career and learn how to shoot it, its entirely possible to get selected into a corps where you will not have to fight. Try hard to get yourself into one of those. I dont know what the army bases its selection criteria on, but it would be stupid if it did not get trained individuals into the right positions to make it more effective. In our case, anyone who came in with a degree or a job with experience in certain fields got given a luitenant rank and posted off to the appropriate corps where his skills would count.

Jeez, OK, this might be longer than my original post. Its certainly an interesting discussion and what I've written here is not even close to my full views on the matter. I might not even have answered all your questions or concerns. I'll go back and review it when I've got more time.
 

Trebuchet

Prolific Member
Local time
Today 1:24 PM
Joined
Aug 17, 2009
Messages
1,017
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Location
California, USA
As soldiers, they are not allowed to wince... They teach you to be apathetic and do only what you are said, nothing beyond. Logic or feelings will not be tolerated.

As for the program, I'm sure there are many programs like that - but the profile that is needed for them is probably 64 (Which I cannot access) and probably requires a high level of English speaking to be present (I don't know if I'm that good).

As for the questions, we can see the moon clearly. And we not only have showers we also have modern houses and cities, everything you'd expect from normal countries - just a bit dirtier with sand and never snow.

Now I'm wincing. And laughing. Yes indeed, Israel is a modern country on the planet Earth.

My impression was that the two soldiers were neither illogical nor unfeeling. Not everyone who goes through such a program of basic training ends up robotic or brainwashed or whatever. It doesn't sound like you would.

Good luck with the loophole. I agree that it is silly to compare the US and Israeli armies, so I hope I didn't offend with my dad's experience. I was talking only about personality and obeying orders, and he's the only INTP I know personally who served.
 

LPolaright

Mentalist
Local time
Tomorrow 12:24 AM
Joined
Oct 27, 2010
Messages
204
---
Location
Israel
OK, thanks for reading my post objectively. You guys made some valid points however, but I wanted to point out that the intention for that post was purely on being as objective about the experience as possible. I made a point not to bring ethical views and moral opinion into it. I just wanted to show a clearer picture about what life was like there and how to deal with it.

I think mostly what you guys have touched upon starts stemming from personal values and outlook on life. In order for me to reply to most of your observations though, Im going to have to draw on personal opinion. In no way do I want to change your thoughts on the matter, but it might serve to give you a more rounded outlook on the subject.

Technically discipline is more than just obedience, but yes, it includes obedience. Discipline is about having your wits about you when you probably would not have if you had not been through some form of training. Discipline is not punishment, but punishment is mostly seen as discipline (even though thats not always the case). But its true that you will need to obey your commanding officers order. An army without order and hierarchy is not an army, its a mob.

Right, so this obedience thing is to really obey your commanding officer. We are all ultimately responsible for our own actions however. (For perspective, I am a strong Christian, so morals and ethics feature strongly in how I act in life, even if I dont get it right very often). Firstly, I just want to point out that if you start at the bottom, you do not have the whole picture, so you will certainly need to obey your immediate commanding officer. He will know better on things like when to move out, where to go, what your objectives are etc etc. He's slightly more involved in the big picture than you are. But even him and his immediate superior are pretty much bogged down in specifics to really know much about whats REALLY going on. That starts happening on the CO (Commissioned officer) side of things at around Major level. So if you're going to question an order, think first where it came from and how it might fit in a bigger picture.
But ... on the other hand, Im all for questioning an order if it goes against my moral fibre. I WILL not shoot a person outright under order. Im prepared to go to jail for that - absolutely. But since you will be tried, if you have witnesses and a real good reason why you disobeyed, you have a good chance of getting off. (See the movie Crimson Tide for where an NCO disobeyed his commanding officers orders. The movie made a fair statement)
Usually in a country of fairly stable and positive ethical standards, you will find that for the most part their army will be fairly well off psychologically and you will not be faced with those kinds of decisions. Keep in mind that even your commanding officer is a human being who probably came from the village next door, so he may well have a similar outlook as you and question is superior.

In my experience when I was out doing patrols, none of our platoon, or our company as a whole, ever got called in for questionable actions. Despite our differences, our platoon were a fairly reasonable bunch of guys and none of us were inclined to shoot first and ask questions later. Our corporals were pretty much one of us and many times they wouldnt let us do something because it was too dangerous or they werent sure of the outcome so they would pull us back.

In my weapons training we were taught to always exercise something called minimum force (this a translated expression, I was trying to think of a better English phrase). We were given the same lecture again before we got deployed into hot zones. Basically it means that if you're going to pull the trigger, first always fire a warning shot. Then if you have to shoot him, always aim to disable, ie the legs or the arms. Only kill when you have no choice, your life is in danger and there is no chance of any negotiation. Now you can debate that last sentence all you like, but it really comes down to you and how you see the situation. And how clear minded you are at the time (how disciplined are you under pressure?)
For me, I dont ever want to be faced with having to actually shoot anyone, let alone kill the person.
(for anyone whos interested, Dan Carlin makes an excellent podcast called Hardcore History and over the last year he did a 4 part series on the Eastern Front of the second world war - Ghosts of the Ostfront - where he questions how normal human beings were able to commit the atrocities that were depicted in that war against the Russians and the Germans on each side. I dont have the link but you can Google it. LPolaright - I suggest you dont listen those podcasts, given your current situation)

I'm not going to comment on Israels ideology. What I can say, PINT, is that since its only your belief that Israel routinely bomb innocent civilians on purpose, is that that belief is not fact. But also, even the best make mistakes. Since you dont ACTUALLY know, I find it hard to make sound judgements like that without having more data. And I dont consider the press to be the entire truth. I remain as neutral as possible until its clear where the blame lies.

Well, Im not sure if you were given the option to apply for different corps. Many of my friends joined all at the same time and it seemed like I was the only idiot who got thrown into infantry. My one friend made me quite jealous by getting himself selected into the intelligence corps where he ended up staying at home and catching the train in to the units base in the centre of town where he got to play on computers all day.
Another mate went to Engineering where he got to play with bridge builders and some heavy duty machinery. While you will still have to do your basic bootcamp training where you will be assigned a rifle for the rest of your military career and learn how to shoot it, its entirely possible to get selected into a corps where you will not have to fight. Try hard to get yourself into one of those. I dont know what the army bases its selection criteria on, but it would be stupid if it did not get trained individuals into the right positions to make it more effective. In our case, anyone who came in with a degree or a job with experience in certain fields got given a luitenant rank and posted off to the appropriate corps where his skills would count.

Jeez, OK, this might be longer than my original post. Its certainly an interesting discussion and what I've written here is not even close to my full views on the matter. I might not even have answered all your questions or concerns. I'll go back and review it when I've got more time.


Yea, I'm sorry I haven't answered in a long time - it's just that I'm still fighting the army regarding my profile and I have to go see doctors everyday in order to change it.

But yes, you presented it very objectively based solely on experience and I thank you for that. But what would you have thought would happen if one day there would be an ambush on your convey? What would you have done then? You're going to have to shoot back, otherwise you'd be killed.
I simply want to take away that option from myself - I don't want to be in the line of fire or line of defense just so I wouldn't need to shoot back. I realize you probably support the same value for human life and probably had to go to the army out of no choice as I did... But what I'm basically saying is that since Israel is a modern country with overdeveloped drafting system (well... obviously - they draft hundred of thousands of soldiers every year) maybe I can avoid that.

From what retired people from the army tell me, a warning shot becomes very very fast into a wounding shot. And there are some ESFP's that are very hot-headed here in Israel - actually come to think about it the vast majority in Israel is ESFP's and you can see atleast one anywhere anytime.

I do not argue though that I will get to scratch my head in all of the roles they offer me - but I want more then a scratch in the head, I want an actual puzzle that I will be puzzled with.

==========

You know, it's quite funny but I posted this thread in Israeli forums in order to try and gain a little bit of help from people that actually know the system. All I got is snotty comments and apathy. Nowhere near the level of discussion that can be found here.

==========

I do agree though that at some point in the ladder you need to obey as much as needed because you still do not know all the facts but it becomes quite difficult especially in Israel because people take advantage of that power - for example there are many stories of commanders that ask for "coffee" as an order, if you disobey you will be jailed. I think it's an insult to make coffee for a commanding officer that is one year older than me.

Also, I've checked if jail time in the army = recorded on the civilian file - no. It does not appear in your civil file. Means that you can get any job you want if for instance the "army" fires you.

I'm not going to comment on Israels ideology. What I can say, PINT, is that since its only your belief that Israel routinely bomb innocent civilians on purpose, is that that belief is not fact. But also, even the best make mistakes. Since you dont ACTUALLY know, I find it hard to make sound judgements like that without having more data. And I dont consider the press to be the entire truth. I remain as neutral as possible until its clear where the blame lies.

There's actually a famous story about this:

A commander and his team spotted few terrorists going into a caver and they shot warning shots, took megaphones and shouted "come out or you will get shot". The team offered the commander to throw a grenade and kill everyone (Like, I said, A whole bunch of hot-headed ESFPs), but the commander said "no, I was sure I saw a woman coming in with them" and so the team decided that if there is a woman they should not throw a grenade because it's unethical. The arabs were pinned down but could ask for reinforcements, the commander needed to take a move and so he asked his team to stay on sniping positions and he will get closer to the cave and ask for the woman. The arabs let the woman out, she came closer to the commander, and then there was an explosion. Apparently the woman had tons of explosives tied on her and they used her as a human dynamite - but she looked calm and calculated. Thing is, the moment the explosion occurred the cave collapsed and killed all of the arabs.

If the team and the commander would have thrown the grenade atleast the commander would of came out alive but it wouldn't of been ethical. But they did the right thing and nothing good came out.

That's a problem - not knowing the consequences for you actions especially in war related issues. Ethics can get confused with saving your own lives and vice versa.

The real problem with ethics is that it's not very interesting for the worldwide media - but everytime we do something wrong it will jump ahead in titles ignoring everything else. When was the last time you heard on the news "The Israeli army faced a tough decision today but has made a progress towards ethics"?

My impression was that the two soldiers were neither illogical nor unfeeling. Not everyone who goes through such a program of basic training ends up robotic or brainwashed or whatever. It doesn't sound like you would.

On the other hand, it doesn't sound like I'm going to get into the army but rather jail :phear:

Good luck with the loophole. I agree that it is silly to compare the US and Israeli armies, so I hope I didn't offend with my dad's experience. I was talking only about personality and obeying orders, and he's the only INTP I know personally who served.

Oh no, not at all... We weren't directing this to you, we were directing this to people who seem to confuse their objective experience with the subjectiveness. You only presented an objective experience and I thank you for that :)

Such a long discussion... Tiresome actually, but it's only the response writing that bothers me. Your posts are read thoroughly and are very interesting as I get to view tons of other point of views on my situation. Something I couldn't of done without you people.
 

The Gopher

President
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Guess the only problem with going to jail is you don't get paid.
 

LPolaright

Mentalist
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Guess the only problem with going to jail is you don't get paid.

And it's not considered as military service.
And you only get 30 seconds to talk in the phone with your parents.
And you get screamed at almost all parts of the day.
And you get shitty food.
And you have to be with your cell-mate for all parts of the day (no privacy).
And you are allowed visitors for once a week for two hours at most.
And you might get stuck there for a year. (There was a recent story about a pacifist that got locked up there for two years)

At-least they allow you to bring books, paper and writing material.
Nothing else though.

The army doesn't pay that good - perhaps 400 NIS per month which is 115$ approx. But you do get a compensation for your service at the end of it which is 22,000 NIS - which is approx 6285$ if you serve for three years.
 
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