I Tried To Kill Myself

[ProxyAmenRa]

I concur.

Music is the best anti-depressant there is, atleast for me. To first make a good melody and structure, to mix it into a soundscape and then to eventually add some lyrics that catches the mood of the melody to begin with. Afterall, the scale is very much open and with just a little focus, you can use it however you want. That's music. Unchained and free, far away from those prisoners with their notes and pointing-sticks. Always keep playing.

Perhaps if you weren't a marxist you would feel much better about yourself.

 

[The Gopher]

Perhaps if you weren't a marxist you would feel much better about yourself.

NO! Not in this thread... I'm in this one mercy please!

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

NO! Not in this thread... I'm in this one mercy please!

Come on...it was a joke. I laughed out load when I wrote it. I was initially going to write 'perhaps you would feel better if you were the opposite gender' but that just was not as funny.

 

[Proletar]

Perhaps if you weren't a marxist you would feel much better about yourself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ScKmUFBYqI

The story of how Proxy took The Lost One to Australia.

 

[Proletar]

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01208/hugh2_1208777c.jpg

 

[The Gopher]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ScKmUFBYqI

The story of how Proxy took The Lost One to Australia.

*Tries to kill himself*

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

*Tries to kill himself*

Noooo! We are friends 4eva!!!

 

[snafupants]

Noooo! We are friends 4eva!!!

You guys...are...*gulps down air*

 

[Magpie]

Hey, I just wanted to say that for a lot of folk there is nothing you can "do" to get out of depression, no way to snap out of it, and the only thing that'll work is medication. It's not a sign of weakness - you'd take medication for cancer, too, no matter how much some folk might tell you to just get more fresh air.


Depression and suicidal thoughts are basically hallucinations. If I put the right chemicals into your brain you will be 100% sure that purple hairy spiders are crawling on you. Believing it does not make it so - it's a problem with chemicals in your brain. It won't make the slightest difference to you if I tell you the spiders are not real. They will look and feel real, and you'll react just as if they are real.


Not always, but in a lot of cases depression and suicidal thoughts are absolutely the result of a chemical imbalance in your brain. The way human cells work compounds the problem: the less certain receptors are used, the fewer of those receptors your cells will maintain. So if you're low on a particular chemical that triggers "happiness" (and yes, all emotion is basically chemicals) then you literally CANNOT feel happy - and because the receptors for those chemicals atrophy while not being used much, getting back to a normal supply of the right chemicals still won't help - the receptors have declined.


This makes getting out of depression a complete bastard.


The idea behind an SSRI (I recommend one of the newer ones, like Pristiq) is to keep the existing supply of serotonin in the system longer - effectively increasing the supply, and the chance that any particular molecule will hit the existing receptors. Not only does that help you feel the emotions you're SUPPOSED to be feeling, but it'll encourage more of those receptors to be developed by your cells. That allows you to reduce and eventually eliminate your medication, and hurray, you're back in action.


I suffer from periodic bouts of depression. I'm not sad (and this is the problem with calling it depression - really, it means "depressed brain function", not necessarily "sad"), but more like... I'm flat, almost in a waking coma. I can't move sometimes, I can't think, I can't enjoy anything, I don't WANT anything except to not feel like this anymore. It's not like pain and suffering, it's almost worse - it's a complete absence of anything. I can sympathise with folk who cut themselves just to be able to feel SOMETHING.


So you can distract yourself at times, and that's worth trying. And maybe it is something you can take action to get out of. But real, clinical depression is nothing like what people who haven't experienced it think it is. A lot of the advice in this thread, though well meaning, is only going to delay real recovery. And given that you've already had suicidal thoughts, it's important to get on it sharpish.


Honestly, "depression" is a bunch of related illnesses using the same name, we're just not very good at identifying them properly. That why different treatments and different medications will have hugely different results in different people. For a lot of people (especially if you're young, and especially if you try suicide multiple times) you may actually be "bi-polar", which is another grab-bag of illnesses that use the same name. So you might be "bi-polar" (aka manic-depressive) even if you don't have the manic, "up" phase, but instead periods of normality followed by periods of depression.


In that case anti-depressants won't help, but mood-stabilisers will.


So it 'aint easy. You need to try something for a month or two to see if it's working, and if not try something else. It sucks - the meds can make you feel worse. You need to keep trying until they fix you - *IF* you're clinically depressed, but it sounds like you are.

It's not a picnic, but this is a real illness that can really kill you. You don't mess around with an infection or cancer - you hit it with medical science.

Depression is the same - don't muck about, get treatment.

 

[snafupants]

@The Lost One

I haven't read this entire thread but did you secretly want to get caught? Or, did you avowedly want to end your life? I can appreciate the pain that drives someone to do something that extreme.

Tolerance seems more important than blame at these times. I mean, nobody really wants to feel that bad. It's disingenuous when people say things like, think about the family!

These same people are usually oblivious to the depths of depression. How the fuck is that helpful advice anyway? Stop feeling bad!

 

[The Gopher]

Noooo! We are friends 4eva!!!

OMG YES! BBF, if ever I was going to go on a suicidal rampage I would LOVE you to be there. (not to kill you fyi just because it would be a great story for you and you could probably tell it in a way everyone would die laughing)

Well, on a side note. If any of you ever come to Qld Australia you can be depressed with us. Everything is more fun with friends.

 

[Gather_Wanderer]

Please don't ever do this again.

There is something to be said about the dynamic between humans and external psychological influences and how much that is misunderstood. Your thoughts truly run your life and they are highly susceptible to external influence, if you are not careful --- and most people are not. So yes, you very well could have been close to death and its no mystery why. But I would rather you do anything other than to let that darkness cloud your mind and destroy you.

All of us have had dark times, and we've had to argue with ourselves on how we should get out of it or even why we should get out of it in the first place.
A lot of us have been in existential crisis mode, when we realize that nothing seems to have any real meaning. And honestly that's probably not far from the truth.

But nothing is more permanent than death for humans, and as far as the universe is concerned, the only life that exists anywhere for a loooong, loooong distance between Earth and the rest of it....is us. Life is special. Life has meaning, though in the context of human beings and achievement, from our point of view, it is hard to see.

You're probably a smart guy. You can be anything you really want to be, Think about what you've always wanted to do in life, and then spend the rest of your life working on it until you get there. It's a good start, I think.

 

[snafupants]

You can be anything you really want to be, Think about what you've always wanted to do in life, and then spend the rest of your life working on it until you get there. It's a good start, I think.

Usable advice. I feel like Western culture frowns upon actual contentment though. Everything is geared towards the pursuit of happiness. Buy this hairdryer and your problems will be solved! It's too much glitter and not enough hedonism. When people are treated like children, they behave like children. For as sex obsessed as this culture is right now, how much effort goes towards actually enjoying sex? Too much titillation. McKenna said something funny about an innate calvinistic bias against a free lunch. Inferior people always seem bitter and incredulous towards free thinkers, or anyone who's managed to eke out something worthwhile. Just crab mentality I guess.

 

[The Lost One]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ScKmUFBYqI

The story of how Proxy took The Lost One to Australia.

I'll just go get my blonde wig and that'll pretty much be an accurate depiction of what will happen

Anyway, I sing in a clear, low tenor. I used to be a percussionist in my middle-school band, but I quit after I could replace music with engineering, and later, with science.

I'm curious as to how you use engineering/science in an emotional way...


@Magpie: Thanks, I did need more clarification on antidepressants and medication. Honestly the leaflets on the subject are a bit lackluster.
Yea I think for me depression is a numbness as you described. Just the apathy of the mind and body, really unfortunate.
Periodically I will feel a huge pressure on my chest, from just feeling alone, like almost unbearable and uncomfortable chest pressure that you can't do anything about. Apparently that is anxiety but it feels a bit more serious than that.
I'm surprised that you say it could be bi-polar even without the manic swings. I haven't attempted suicide multiple times but of course I do swing from normal to bad, with no measurable time frequency though. Sometimes its weekly sometimes it takes months of a bad stage for 2 weeks of a good one.

The main issue I have always had with antidepressants is that in a way, I see them as painkillers like paracetamol but of the mind. I don't like taking painkillers when I have a headache etc. I always think I am just lying to myself. The pain would still be there if I didn't take them
It feels the same with antidepressants; I am just taking something to 'pretend' the pain isn't there anymore. I hope you could help with this view cause at the moment it almost feels like cheating. Underdeveloped Fe seems to be the culprit.

I am going back to the GP next week. Most likely, even though I am still a bit wary of antidepressants (but your post did help some clarification and hence its less scary), I will go on an SSRI. I'll ask if Pristiq is right for me, if that is available in the UK.

 

[The Lost One]

@The Lost One

I haven't read this entire thread but did you secretly want to get caught? Or, did you avowedly want to end your life? I can appreciate the pain that drives someone to do something that extreme.

Tolerance seems more important than blame at these times. I mean, nobody really wants to feel that bad. It's disingenuous when people say things like, think about the family!

These same people are usually oblivious to the depths of depression. How the fuck is that helpful advice anyway? Stop feeling bad!

Hate to say it but the suicide wasn't for attention. I don't know what would have happened if someone hadn't walked in. I don't really like attention anyway, even in these kind of situations. But as I say even though it was a genuine attempt I was also in a stupor, and never felt quite right about it. As if I was literally giving my depression the 'wheel' of my body for a period of time. That kind of stupor doesn't happen often though, thankfully.
As twinges of existential angst help push me to the edge, I wouldn't really think about the family because in the end it is all meaningless anyway. But it is not helpful to think in those terms currently.
My parents don't understand it and they admit that. I am not close enough to anyone else for them to get it either. If "stop feeling bad" was meant to be a good bit of help then sorry, it doesnt quite work like that! (no offense to your person)
If it was sarcasm then very good

But nothing is more permanent than death for humans, and as far as the universe is concerned, the only life that exists anywhere for a loooong, loooong distance between Earth and the rest of it....is us. Life is special. Life has meaning, though in the context of human beings and achievement, from our point of view, it is hard to see.

Yea I think back to this now and you are so right. If I want to die then actually it leads me to the biggest liberation of my life. It means instead of going up against a 100% death rate instantly, I can now go ahead and do whatever I want with so much less fear. Seriously, I was going to actually die. Now I know I will die anyway, what I do now is up to me and anything is more interesting than death. Sounds like twaddle but it works for me

Usable advice. I feel like Western culture frowns upon actual contentment though. Everything is geared towards the pursuit of happiness. Buy this hairdryer and your problems will be solved! It's too much glitter and not enough hedonism. When people are treated like children, they behave like children. For as sex obsessed as this culture is right now, how much effort goes towards actually enjoying sex? Too much titillation. McKenna said something funny about an innate calvinistic bias against a free lunch. Inferior people always seem bitter and incredulous towards free thinkers, or anyone who's managed to eke out something worthwhile. Just crab mentality I guess.

You speak the truth here. I don't know though, maybe there is a grain of truth in the idea of enjoying the journey and not the destination. It actually mirrors Buddhism: The real contentment lies *IN* the journey anyway. Except when the journey is filled with so many physical promises and material wealth then lots of the message gets lost.
But you know what, as much as I know and want to get rid of this depression, I actually value it thus far, as something not to 100% despise. It has brought me insight that I really value. Maybe it is the melacholy that I am after, not the depression. But something about this isn't meant to be scorned, it is meant to be used and valued. (Not to the point of valuing it whilst I kill myself mind you.. thats too far)
We all have our problems, and in the end they are all subjective and can't be measured against one another's specific problems. Maybe if we learn to love our entire selves, even the bits that lead us into darker waters, then we can be more balanced. A bit to zen I know but we can speculate it

 

[Velo]

The main issue I have always had with antidepressants is that in a way, I see them as painkillers like paracetamol but of the mind. I don't like taking painkillers when I have a headache etc. I always think I am just lying to myself. The pain would still be there if I didn't take them

It feels the same with antidepressants; I am just taking something to 'pretend' the pain isn't there anymore. I hope you could help with this view cause at the moment it almost feels like cheating. Underdeveloped Fe seems to be the culprit..

Don't be so hard on yourself regarding painkillers and antidepressants. As long as you don't abuse them, they have their places. The best response I've heard to the complaint that "antidepressants are just a crutch" was a rant by Scotsman Craig Ferguson: "(paraphrasing) Would you go up to someone with a broken leg hobbling down the sidewalk using crutches and yell at them 'Hey, those crutches are just a crutch!', and then kick the crutches out from under them? Of course not. Crutches are sometimes a necessary support."

 

[Duxwing]

I'll just go get my blonde wig and that'll pretty much be an accurate depiction of what will happen

I'm curious as to how you use engineering/science in an emotional way...

I didn't want to be a musician in the first place. I always loathed practice and mistakes-- they set my frustration issues off. So when the time to get out of Dodge came around, I took it! As for using science and engineering "emotionally", my motivation comes primarily from the following songs. When I listened to them for the first time, I felt like something was grabbing me by the collar and telling me to become a scientist:http://www.symphonyofscience.com/ Although I'm already looking to become a scientist (provided that I can conquer my existential crisis), these songs still get me. They provide me a sense of meaning that I haven't even found in religion-- @Da Blob, I understand what you mean about your comparison of science and religion now; both provide those who follow them with a sense of order and meaning in life.

@Magpie: Thanks, I did need more clarification on antidepressants and medication. Honestly the leaflets on the subject are a bit lackluster.
Yea I think for me depression is a numbness as you described. Just the apathy of the mind and body, really unfortunate.
Periodically I will feel a huge pressure on my chest, from just feeling alone, like almost unbearable and uncomfortable chest pressure that you can't do anything about. Apparently that is anxiety but it feels a bit more serious than that.
I'm surprised that you say it could be bi-polar even without the manic swings. I haven't attempted suicide multiple times but of course I do swing from normal to bad, with no measurable time frequency though. Sometimes its weekly sometimes it takes months of a bad stage for 2 weeks of a good one.

Dude... ouch. Have you found a therapist yet? Your story makes me think that you could use one.

The main issue I have always had with antidepressants is that in a way, I see them as painkillers like paracetamol but of the mind. I don't like taking painkillers when I have a headache etc. I always think I am just lying to myself. The pain would still be there if I didn't take them
It feels the same with antidepressants; I am just taking something to 'pretend' the pain isn't there anymore. I hope you could help with this view cause at the moment it almost feels like cheating. Underdeveloped Fe seems to be the culprit.

If we assume that your problem stems not from an underdeveloped Fe (MBTI studies the healthy mind) but from a chemical imbalance in your brain, then the antidepressant is actually the only way not to lie to yourself: only it can fix the biological problem that's causing you so much pain. In other words, antidepressants aren't painkillers, they're actual treatments, even cures for a real problem: an ill brain.

I am going back to the GP next week. Most likely, even though I am still a bit wary of antidepressants (but your post did help some clarification and hence its less scary), I will go on an SSRI. I'll ask if Pristiq is right for me, if that is available in the UK.

Get a therapist! They mind the clinical side of your mental health problems so that you don't have to. As for starting the Pristiq, only your doctor knows.

-Duxwing

 

[Da Blob]

I understand what you mean about your comparison of science and religion now; both provide those who follow them with a sense of order and meaning in life.

Arrrrgh!



So which one of the storks is Science and which is ART/Humanity/Religion?

I really, really wonder why so many seem to think it is an either/or scenario and one must choose to deny the truth of Science or the Truth of One's own Humanity?

Why deny either, but rather embrace both as providing incomplete, but valid points of view from which to Observe the quantum universe?

I am a devout Christian, yet I still embrace the truth of science. I stand opposed only to those unverifiable myths that parade as valid science in the contemporary society of the antichrist and to the religious hypocrites who would probably crucify Christ again for challenging the doctrines of the manmade church as falsehoods, as did the Pharisees and Sadducees originally.

 

[Duxwing]

Arrrrgh!



So which one of the storks is Science and which is ART/Humanity/Religion?

I really, really wonder why so many seem to think it is an either/or scenario and one must choose to deny the truth of Science or the Truth of One's own Humanity?

Why deny either, but rather embrace both as providing incomplete, but valid points of view from which to Observe the quantum universe?

I am a devout Christian, yet I still embrace the truth of science. I stand opposed only to those unverifiable myths that parade as valid science in the contemporary society of the antichrist and to the religious hypocrites who would probably crucify Christ again for challenging the doctrines of the manmade church as falsehoods, as did the Pharisees and Sadducees originally.

Well, the Science that I spoke of is really the worldview inspired by science: teleology, humanistic ethics, etc. The actual thought process of science is just a very, very useful way of understanding things. As regards the worldview (e.g., We'll go to Mars one day!), the difference is one of details. I personally prefer the "scientific" one because it makes more sense to me and appeals to my conscience. Let's not quibble.

-Duxwing

 

[The Lost One]

...Crutches are sometimes a necessary support.

@Velo Yes well put, very understandable.

I didn't want to be a musician in the first place. I always loathed practice and mistakes-- they set my frustration issues off.

Hah yes this is totally true, can understand. As a child my parents really pressured me to keep the musical instruments going. I used to have tantrums, terrible screaming. Perfectionism was even worse as a child; in practice you discover your mistakes and it was uncomfortable for me, not being able to just play everything perfectly straight away.
Whilst being a bit angry at having to play that much (every day for an hour) as a child, I really do value what it has given me now as I start my adult life. I feel it was worth the anger and tantrums, as destructive as they were.
But I can imagine, if I had only just started playing music as an adult/teen I would not have kept it going so it is very understandable to want to find an alternative outlet.

I'm back at uni in a week and I can try and find CBT there. It is such a relief to not be as down as when I started this thread. Hopefully this bliss will last for at least a couple weeks, long enough to see clearly about life and make some constructive changes.


@Da Blob it is great to see your balance between our self-specified duality. (if that makes any sense. Once again if I talk out of my rear I apologise).
It would be good to know the primary reason for your Christianity. Is it the message and meaning that you focus on, that happens to be given by Jesus? Or are you fuelled by the belief that he was truly the divine son of God and thus should be listened to based on that?

 

[Da Blob]

@Da Blob it is great to see your balance between our self-specified duality. (if that makes any sense. Once again if I talk out of my rear I apologise).
It would be good to know the primary reason for your Christianity. Is it the message and meaning that you focus on, that happens to be given by Jesus? Or are you fuelled by the belief that he was truly the divine son of God and thus should be listened to based on that?

Neither, really, but certainly the message, the call of the Shepherd is of prime importance. I believe that divine right to rule as practiced by despots has soured one's attitude towards authority in generally. However, when one confesses Jesus as Lord and Savior it is doubtful which relationship bears the most fruit. Having a perfect commander is a difficult relationship for most to conceive of given the poor quality of those humans in authority. One can easily get the impression that all in authority embrace oppression, including Christ. It is perhaps of interest to note, that Jesus did not rely on His authority even on the eve of His crucifixion, so it calls into question those mere men who claim to wield such authority.


My primary reason for my Christianity is it led to me to a higher state of consciousness and an enlargement of Self, in a manner superior to drugs and Eastern philosophies.

 

[Magpie]

@Magpie: Thanks, I did need more clarification on antidepressants and medication. Honestly the leaflets on the subject are a bit lackluster.
Yea I think for me depression is a numbness as you described. Just the apathy of the mind and body, really unfortunate.
Periodically I will feel a huge pressure on my chest, from just feeling alone, like almost unbearable and uncomfortable chest pressure that you can't do anything about. Apparently that is anxiety but it feels a bit more serious than that.
I'm surprised that you say it could be bi-polar even without the manic swings. I haven't attempted suicide multiple times but of course I do swing from normal to bad, with no measurable time frequency though. Sometimes its weekly sometimes it takes months of a bad stage for 2 weeks of a good one.

The main issue I have always had with antidepressants is that in a way, I see them as painkillers like paracetamol but of the mind. I don't like taking painkillers when I have a headache etc. I always think I am just lying to myself. The pain would still be there if I didn't take them
It feels the same with antidepressants; I am just taking something to 'pretend' the pain isn't there anymore. I hope you could help with this view cause at the moment it almost feels like cheating. Underdeveloped Fe seems to be the culprit.

I am going back to the GP next week. Most likely, even though I am still a bit wary of antidepressants (but your post did help some clarification and hence its less scary), I will go on an SSRI. I'll ask if Pristiq is right for me, if that is available in the UK.

Keep in mind that it is, in effect, the *depression* that's lying to you. It's making you feel empty and crap even when there's no reason. If anything the medication is just there to wipe the illusion away. Unlike painkillers.

Not to lie - the medication can be hard, especially when you have to go through the ordeal of working out which one might work, and which ones make you worse. And non-chemical stuff is great, too, and very well worth a try - cognitive behaviour therapy works really well for a lot of people, and you can get stuck into that right now, if you want. Same-same exercise - get stuck in.

But yeah, a lot of folk have only one option: find the right antidepressant. Just like people with an infection of unknown type have to find the right antibiotic.


(They'll almost certainly try you on something like Zoloft first, because if you can get the good effect without the 'orrible side-effects, then do that. But as a second-try, Pristiq seems a lot better than something like Effexor - the heavy duty ones that they try on a second go. 'Course, everyone is different, but just going on conversations).

It does end.

(It doesn't help to know that it ends, so I'm not sure why I'm saying it...)

I think of myself as a lot of different people over time. We change and become someone different. There's nothing wrong with holding out for something better: you suffer, god do you suffer, but in the end a new and happier person is born. It's worth it.

 

[Reluctantly]

Please don't take any drugs...Don't make me dig up all the research that proves psychiatry is a pseudoscience that, at best, works as a placebo...You don't want any of the permanent brain damage that can go with it either. And you don't need to believe there is anything wrong with your brain, nor do you need the stigma.

Your life sucks and you need to get used to it or change it, maybe both, but you don't need harmful drugs that give you the impression something is wrong with you because there isn't. Suicide is part of life for some people; that doesn't make it unnatural, but it also doesn't mean it has to be a natural part of yours. It's really up to you no matter what anyone says about it. If you're depressed and you have made the decision to live, you have to push yourself through it; that's just how it works. No drug will do that for you anyway, and if you can do it without drugs, you can be proud of your perseverance, at least, instead of expecting some external influence to provide the motivation for you.

Seriously. Just think about it, at least.

 

[snafupants]

I'm probably too egotistical to actually lace the noose around my neck.

 

[Minuend]

As for SSRI, I did read an article in Scientific American a year or two ago about it not being as efficient in males as females. (If you are male). The alternative based anti-depressants was better. I can't remember what substance they were targeting right now. Even though I should, because I read tons of stuff on anti dep and anti anxiety meds before starting on them myself.

Those studies weren't as good as they could be though, things might've changed. You should probably look into newer research.

I was very sceptical of them, and didn't really think they would work. I gradually increased dosage and was on max after about 6 months. And it was some time after that I started noticing change. Oh, I'm on cipralex btw.

I wouldn't be able to function without them. Even now I have times where I fall into hopelessness and despair. (I've been on them for almost 2 and a half year).

I have spent a lot of time really trying to comprehend this point, and I really do understand it well now.
I know that the inherent meaningless of our tiny, tiny lives can tend itself to great personal motivation and intrinsic value.

Personally, I think there are other issues that are under your depression. These thoughts just tend to become more present when depressed. I have perspectives close to nihilism myself, but they only reinforces my sulkiness when I'm sad. On a day to day basis, I'm fine with living in a "nihilistic world".

When I'm not depressed, I find the illusion of temporary meaning enough. Today it's meaningful for me to do a good job at work, for instance. I know that it's not, but I get a sense of accomplishment, and that's enough. I don't need any higher meaning with my life, so to speak. I have difficulty describing this properly.

Point is; you should probably look for the cause of your suffering elsewhere.

Don't make me dig up all the research that proves psychiatry is a pseudoscience that, at best, works as a placebo

You're on intpforum, once it used to be obligatory to do so. Our thirst for knowledge and new perspectives is never-ending. Meow.

 

[Duxwing]

As for SSRI, I did read an article in Scientific American a year or two ago about it not being as efficient in males as females. (If you are male). The alternative based anti-depressants was better. I can't remember what substance they were targeting right now. Even though I should, because I read tons of stuff on anti dep and anti anxiety meds before starting on them myself.

Those studies weren't as good as they could be though, things might've changed. You should probably look into newer research.

I was very sceptical of them, and didn't really think they would work. I gradually increased dosage and was on max after about 6 months. And it was some time after that I started noticing change. Oh, I'm on cipralex btw.

I wouldn't be able to function without them. Even now I have times where I fall into hopelessness and despair. (I've been on them for almost 2 and a half year).



Personally, I think there are other issues that are under your depression. These thoughts just tend to become more present when depressed. I have perspectives close to nihilism myself, but they only reinforces my sulkiness when I'm sad. On a day to day basis, I'm fine with living in a "nihilistic world".

When I'm not depressed, I find the illusion of temporary meaning enough. Today it's meaningful for me to do a good job at work, for instance. I know that it's not, but I get a sense of accomplishment, and that's enough. I don't need any higher meaning with my life, so to speak. I have difficulty describing this properly.

Point is; you should probably look for the cause of your suffering elsewhere.



You're on intpforum, once it used to be obligatory to do so. Our thirst for knowledge and new perspectives is never-ending. Meow.

You can make your own meaning at larger scales, too. Set long-term goals and imagine yourself as a character in a story: the achievement of the goal means the end of the 'chapter' that concerned it, but not that chapter's destruction. The past lives on forever, and you can always reminisce. Should achieving those goals leave you feeling nonetheless empty, do as was said in (the surprisingly profound) Sharkboy and Lava Girl, "Dream a Bigger Dream". You see, nihilism is a close approximation of the truth, but it presupposes that inherent meaning could but does not exist. In reality, no logical inherent meaning intelligible by humans could ever exist because all such systems of thought require founding statements that go unscrutinized.

Ergo, you can actually have your cake and eat it, too: moral relativism doesn't work when no system of thought can be right and you are therefore free to do as you wish without ever needing to ascribe Platonic attributes like Good, Evil, Meaningful, and Absurd to your life. These terms simply cannot describe the human experience in any useful way without a great degree of faith, and if you're into faith, just grab a religion.

-Duxwing

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

Just realized that this may be of use, for those who haven't already perused it: http://www.intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=14678

Post #33 contains my med regime, formed jointly by myself and the first psychiatrist who ever let me have such a degree of say in my own treatment regarding medication. However, I only recommend taking up a crutch if one trusts their own risk assessment and has at least a cursory understanding of how the crutch functions. Certain philosophic inroads have done far more for me than any meds (prior to the cited med regime I'd rejected psychiatry almost entirely).

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

I have been debating with people who are mentally ill? Great...It all makes sense now...

 

[The Lost One]

I have been debating with people who are mentally ill? Great...It all makes sense now...

I know that was probably a joke but as a social question do you really think people who are mentally ill have less to contribute?
Not trying to sound mean, I am genuinely just curious about it. Always good to know how things are percieved "on the other side" as it were.
Also I love how in day to day life people will hide so much truth from each other, just because they are worried about being polite and hurting their feelings. Ideally I thought that truth/fact would be higher up on the list than protecting feelings.

Totally baked when writing that hah

 

[7even]

Man this is the weirdest suicide thread I've ever fucking read...

Totally baked when writing that hah

I've considered millions of fucking replies to say to that to establish that I'm baked too... Driving me insane. Hahah (This literally took 5 minutes of writing and deleting several sentences.. I decided I'm going with this)


Anyway, I don't know if this will help, and maybe it seems a bit cliché, but you could get into the habit of strenuous exercise and a good diet; that clears your head up pretty well. You want to become better? Make the effort too and with time, I truly believe you will be better. Death is inevitable, so don't worry, we'll be there soon enough.. I've recently had a thought stuck in my head thinking the only way to acquire objective knowledge is through death, as our current knowledge is doomed to subjectivity.

Regarding the pharmaceuticals... Meh, you're a depressed INTP (DANGER: DON'T DO IT). My guess is that you'd just abuse them, become dependent and with time you'd be worse than you were before - it'll just start off high pleasure/low pain and slowly drift into high pain/low pleasure; I think? Or is that bullshit? (EDIT: Hmm... I have no experience with benzos... I take back what I said here.) Yeah whatever man, the happy moments in life are worth it? Oh man that's sounds so cringy.

Perhaps also try paying more attention to anything that makes you feel good during the day; focus on appreciation, and think about it for however briefly, slowly you may accustom a more positive attitude (Even if it's all bull - I believe your endocrine system can be fooled, you see!) or you can blame it on your biology and look forward to the day that genetic engineering advances and we remove this defect that is depression (along with various other upgrades). Nah, kidding, human emotions are beautiful.

Also, depression isn't necessarily a disease, different cultures perceive it and treat it in different ways, I can't remember the details very well at the moment, but for instance aboriginals, like the Inuit, basically have very strong ties between the members of their community and regard depression differently; they express all their negative emotions may it be anger, jealousy, grief etc. very openly with one another, there's actually way more their methods than that; which are pretty interesting, but again, I can't remember the details now.


Oh, and have you ever considered soberness for a change? What's your deal with Mary Jane?

Fuck you reflection and over-analysis... Making me edit this post..

 

[7even]

I concur.

Music is the best anti-depressant there is, atleast for me. To first make a good melody and structure, to mix it into a soundscape and then to eventually add some lyrics that catches the mood of the melody to begin with. Afterall, the scale is very much open and with just a little focus, you can use it however you want. That's music. Unchained and free, far away from those prisoners with their notes and pointing-sticks. Always keep playing.

One could begin to use the word, one, as a generic pronoun.

One uses it.

Music is great therapy.

I used to think that Art Therapy was some Liberal nonsense that provided employment for those with Art degrees. However, there is sound neurological evidence that expressing One's Self artistically simply turns on certain necessary parts of the brain, lowers stress and has other far reaching effects.

All of my references are rather dated but if One desires to make an effort there are dozens of encouraging articles that display the therapeutic benefits of music that are available on the internet.

My own experiences playing in a Orchestra were great, although I wished at times, we had a human as a conductor. It is great to be part of a team that succeeds in bringing mere scores to life.

I agree.

However, suppose one is depressed, is it not possible, or actually even more likely, that it would drive the subject to listen to (what the subject perceives to be) depressing music thus triggering the negative thoughts and emotions; and thus worsening the depression? Just realized there's a 'sad/depressive songs' thread talking about the same thing.. Heh.

 

[joal0503]

my contribution: hoooooray for being baked!

antidepressants and prescription drugs...thats a good ranting subject...

 

[CallumD]

Well, if you live somewhere in South-East Queensland, @Cognisant, @The Gopher, my brother and I, can take you out into the wilderness for two weeks. We shall drink copious amounts of alcohol, cook meat over a fire with a stick, catch fresh water lobsters, beat the crap out of each other for fun and survive. It is a right of passage that can only be completed when you feel like absolute shit, horrid things have happened, you have ended up 2000km away from where you started, have stories to tell and most importantly, feel like you have lived.

So put a teaspoon of cement in your next coffee, harden the fuck up and come with me, boy.

Take me with you sweet prince.

"We're the middle children of history.... no purpose or place. We have no Great War, no Great Depression. Our great war is a spiritual war. Our great depression is our lives."

Where is my purpose?

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

I know that was probably a joke but as a social question do you really think people who are mentally ill have less to contribute?
Not trying to sound mean, I am genuinely just curious about it. Always good to know how things are percieved "on the other side" as it were.
Also I love how in day to day life people will hide so much truth from each other, just because they are worried about being polite and hurting their feelings. Ideally I thought that truth/fact would be higher up on the list than protecting feelings.

Totally baked when writing that hah

In the past I have found people with various different mental illnesses hard to deal with. A tad bit of a hassle. These days I tend to not interact with such people unless it is necessary. The best thing to do is take people on a case by case basis. My best friend is depressed but he is a pleasure to be in the company of.

As for contribution? No idea. Once again, case by case basis. The one thing that concerns me is that people think they have substantive opinions on subjects that they have never studied in depth.

Take me with you sweet prince.

"We're the middle children of history.... no purpose or place. We have no Great War, no Great Depression. Our great war is a spiritual war. Our great depression is our lives."

Where is my purpose?

Why are you looking for purpose?

 

[CallumD]

Why are you looking for purpose?

Without purpose we're meaningless, I know.. Our existence is meaningless however I want something to fight for, a hope, something simple, because my life is too easy, It is like a story without complication.

 

[Duxwing]

Without purpose we're meaningless, I know.. Our existence is meaningless however I want something to fight for, a hope, something simple, because my life is too easy, It is like a story without complication.

Meaning is all in your head. It's a set of emotions that lets us feel at peace with what's happened and what we've done. Therefore, attempting to examine meaning from a philosophical perspective is like trying to turn lead into gold: outdated. Instead, use your emotions to discover your dreams and then fulfill them with logic and drive.

You'll find your way one day,
-Duxwing

 

[The Lost One]

Oh, and have you ever considered soberness for a change? What's your deal with Mary Jane?

Fuck you reflection and over-analysis... Making me edit this post..

@7even Yea well I don't get baked more than once or twice a week. 60% of the time its 0 times a week... every time (well done if you get the reference).
And I don't drink alcohol at all. Soberness is my default state 90% of my life. MJ is something I do now and again to change states for a little while.

Also I totally know about the whole re-editing thing. It took me 3 goes just to get that previous sentence sorted

About the whole depression: my mindset is starting to change. Where before I was just wallowing in self pity I now actually *value* the moments when I feel bad, the moments when its dark etc.
Its an important change. I know we all have our problems, they arn't comparable to one another in the end because of their subjective nature. These are mine and I know in the end, if I get out of it and even if I don't. I have felt things, I have experienced it and instead of being angry about that, I give thanks.

The other night I had the most amazing nightmare. There was a ghost flying around a room that I was in. Suddenly it flew into my head, and started screaming more loudly than seemed possible. My entire head was on fire from this enormous scream. I was completely terrified (like a night terror: I get those, this was probably a similar feeling. Pure terror).
And instead of freaking out and just waking up and being horrified, I persisted with my fear. I looked inwards, and understood it and valued how I was feeling. This part is really hard to describe but it was like I was finding comfort in the uncomfortable. I was THANKFUL of the ghost making me feel like this. Even in absolute terror. It was like I was resisting and accepting the fear at the same time. Weird.
In the end, I took control. I screamed right back at the ghost. Not out of fear but (not trying to toot my own horn) it was the definition of courage. I screamed so fiercely the ghost left me.

I woke up after that. Not terrified, not scared but absolutely calm and controlled.

Actually it was an important moment. I still feel the same things I felt at the start of the thread. But its the journey ya know? Its necessary, and without these uncomfortable feelings I would just be nothing.

If that made no sense I apologise.

In the past I have found people with various different mental illnesses hard to deal with. A tad bit of a hassle. These days I tend to not interact with such people unless it is necessary. The best thing to do is take people on a case by case basis. My best friend is depressed but he is a pleasure to be in the company of.

As for contribution? No idea. Once again, case by case basis. The one thing that concerns me is that people think they have substantive opinions on subjects that they have never studied in depth.

@ProxyAmenRa Thanks for the insights. Not that I agree but I'm not angry about it.
I think there are so many disorders and problems and illnesses that we forget those are only words we ascribe to people with different mental states/physical states than 'us'.
That whole thing about how people shouldn't express their opinions on subjects they haven't studied in depth. Do you think children have nothing to contribute until they have a degree or certificate to show they have knowledge?

 

[Duxwing]

@7even Yea well I don't get baked more than once or twice a week. 60% of the time its 0 times a week... every time (well done if you get the reference).
And I don't drink alcohol at all. Soberness is my default state 90% of my life. MJ is something I do now and again to change states for a little while.

Also I totally know about the whole re-editing thing. It took me 3 goes just to get that previous sentence sorted

About the whole depression: my mindset is starting to change. Where before I was just wallowing in self pity I now actually *value* the moments when I feel bad, the moments when its dark etc.
Its an important change. I know we all have our problems, they arn't comparable to one another in the end because of their subjective nature. These are mine and I know in the end, if I get out of it and even if I don't. I have felt things, I have experienced it and instead of being angry about that, I give thanks.

The other night I had the most amazing nightmare. There was a ghost flying around a room that I was in. Suddenly it flew into my head, and started screaming more loudly than seemed possible. My entire head was on fire from this enormous scream. I was completely terrified (like a night terror: I get those, this was probably a similar feeling. Pure terror).
And instead of freaking out and just waking up and being horrified, I persisted with my fear. I looked inwards, and understood it and valued how I was feeling. This part is really hard to describe but it was like I was finding comfort in the uncomfortable. I was THANKFUL of the ghost making me feel like this. Even in absolute terror. It was like I was resisting and accepting the fear at the same time. Weird.
In the end, I took control. I screamed right back at the ghost. Not out of fear but (not trying to toot my own horn) it was the definition of courage. I screamed so fiercely the ghost left me.

Wow... I bet that screaming back must have felt like a Crowning Moment of Awesome.

I woke up after that. Not terrified, not scared but absolutely calm and controlled.

Actually it was an important moment. I still feel the same things I felt at the start of the thread. But its the journey ya know? Its necessary, and without these uncomfortable feelings I would just be nothing.

If that made no sense I apologise.



@ProxyAmenRa Thanks for the insights. Not that I agree but I'm not angry about it.
I think there are so many disorders and problems and illnesses that we forget those are only words we ascribe to people with different mental states/physical states than 'us'.
That whole thing about how people shouldn't express their opinions on subjects they haven't studied in depth. Do you think children have nothing to contribute until they have a degree or certificate to show they have knowledge?

Apart from that, I'm glad that you're handling your emotions better. *high five*

-Duxwing

 

[Da Blob]

One always has a choice of either surrendering or standing in opposition to the negative. Usually fear is a negative.

One can run from the demons in fear, allowing THEM to herd one or one can turn on THEM in anger or resolve. Lucid dreams are a good media for the testing of one's self. One knows when One has passed a test upon awakening.

It seems to me that one who surrenders, goes with the flow, acquiesces could never have much of an identity or actually know his or her strengths and abilities. They are content being the nameless Oppressed/depressed it seems.

*************

The contributions of the mentally "halt, lame and blind" to society in general, are probably beyond listing. The value of such to the 'healthy' members of society is their unique POVs which account for a disproportionate number of the 'works of genius' that we recognize as such.

Because those with mental aberrations are often unique, many are difficult to understand for there is no one to compare them, their words, or their works, with and so communication is often a random seeming occurrence.

 

[The Lost One]

The contributions of the mentally "halt, lame and blind" to society in general, are probably beyond listing. The value of such to the 'healthy' members of society is their unique POVs which account for a disproportionate number of the 'works of genius' that we recognize as such.

Because those with mental aberrations are often unique, many are difficult to understand for there is no one to compare them, their words, or their works, with and so communication is often a random seeming occurrence.

Yea thats why categorising so much of the natural difference between people's POVs into "disorders" and "illness" dissappoints me.
I can see why one might wish to call someone ill or say they arnt thinking straight etc. if they don't actually understand what the person with the "disorder" is talking about. Fear of the unknown, fear that maybe not a single person can hold all the answers that everyone seeks.
Fear really is the mind killer. No scratch that, lack of courage is.

Wow... I bet that screaming back must have felt like a Crowning Moment of Awesome.

Haha yes that describes the moment perfectly. It just triggered the realisation that I don't need to be a victim anymore. I'm curious as to what I saw/heard/thought that allowed me to act as I did.

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

That whole thing about how people shouldn't express their opinions on subjects they haven't studied in depth.

They can express their opinions all they want but if they suppose that their opinion has a base founded on the acquired of knowledge and ratiocination, they're being utterly disingenuous. They have probably even deluded themselves.

Do you think children have nothing to contribute until they have a degree or certificate to show they have knowledge?

I don't hold formal education in high esteem.

 

[Da Blob]

It is sad, but there seems to be a common human tendency, to view those different from One's self as somehow being wrong for being different.

When this prejudice is incorporated into societies, this perceived 'wrongness' is socialized into the concept of inferior or 'sick'.

It takes a great leap of faith for most to consider that someone who is different could well be One's superior in some particular fashion, for it points to One's own insufficiency and lack of perfection, making one feel vulnerable and stripping away the illusion of security in numbers.

As far as One's commendable change in attitude. It seems although each change can offer threat, opportunity or both. Entropy encourages the sole perspective of "all Change is threat" which results in depression. The converse, an overly optimistic perspective that "all Change is opportunity" has its own inherent dangers, but offers opportunities, which the other perspective simply can not.

Avoiding change in One's self as a threatening possibility is a maladaptive behavior.
Embracing change in One's self as an opportunity for growth is a Path towards an abundant life and perhaps even enlightenment.

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

It is sad, but there seems to be a common human tendency, to view those different from One's self as somehow being wrong for being different.

When this prejudice is incorporated into societies, this perceived 'wrongness' is socialized into the concept of inferior or 'sick'.

If someone is compulsively smearing fecal matter on walls, I am going to think that there is something wrong with them.

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

@CallumD

Without purpose we're meaningless, I know.. Our existence is meaningless however I want something to fight for, a hope, something simple, because my life is too easy, It is like a story without complication.

There are a great many things wrong in this world:

Looking at images of people reduced to skin and bones due to a food shortage is enough to make a sympathetic person to shed a tear. Hundreds of billions of dollars of aid seems to be useless. The money gets funneled to the despotic political class.

Governments around the world are trying to seize to control of the internet and prevent the free flow of information and communication. The EU wants to set up internet tariffs so that you will have to pay them tribute to access content in different regions.

A great many people out there seem to think that manifesting currency into existence is somehow going to lead to wealth creation. It has never worked in the past, I don't know why think it is going to work now.

A great many people seem to reject the most prosperous system of social organisation for no sound reasons. They seem to think that stealing the wealth people create will result in a more egalitarian society. They seem to forget that you must treat people unequally to achieve this. Such actions only result in society becoming less wealthy.

Welfare has led to a creation of a class of people who think they are entitled by the very nature of their existence to the wealth that other people create. Free shit changes their behavior such that they can engage in detrimental activities and outsource the negative ramifications to others.

Homosexuals are murdered in places like the middle east just because of their preference.

In many places of the world women are blamed if they get raped. Sometimes they are put to death if a person raped them.

In many paces of the world child abuse and molestation is rampant. Hell, child abuse is still rampant in the first world. Kids prisoners in educational facilities which leave them propagandized and not able to think.

---

I suggest studying as much as possible and with knowledge you will be better equipped for dealing with the problems of the world.

 

[walfin]

As a finishing point, I can never tell if I am eloquent or not, if you understand anything I have just written then please just acknowledge it for my sake, cause I do struggle with it.

Don't worry about this. You're fine. Better than fine.

Why don't you post some of the stuff you play on the viola?

I heard quite a number of the anti-depressants make people fat. Like, really bloated. It's practically irreversible, too. Scary stuff.

 

[snafupants]

Don't worry about this. You're fine. Better than fine.

Why don't you post some of the stuff you play on the viola?

These sentences back-to-back made me cringe, and bleat a chortle.

I heard quite a number of the anti-depressants make people fat. Like, really bloated. It's practically irreversible, too. Scary stuff.

Some MAOIs are really dangerous when it comes to dietary contraindications.

 

[Beat Mango]

My depression is more or less cured by Zoloft, however on it I feel numb and have almost no sex drvie to the point of feeling asexual. I'm less expressive. I feel good, but not exactly normal.

So I tried to reduce the dosage, and I had some good days where I felt normal, but then I have days like today which are just hideous. I know what you mean about the heavy chest but haven't been in a stupor before. I consider suicide most days, often fleetingly, but some more than others.

 

[Beat Mango]

Do you see a therapist?

 

[viche]

Have you ever been in a depressive 'stupor'? Like to the point where you arn't really active in yourself. I can't admit this to anyone I know in real life, but in this stupor I found myself overlooking my knife drawer holding a knife to my wrists "down the road".
My mother walked in the kitchen and saw me, and I kind of became aware of it and broke down, dropped the knife, hugged her and left for a walk.
See whats frustrating is even now, after admitting this I cant elicit an emotional resonse from myself. What the hell is wrong with me.

I think that's called suicidal ideation.

I think I need to go on antidepressants, the GP says an SSRI like prozac would work... does anyone have any general opinions for or against such things? Like for a medium period of time (6-12 months) to get my shit together.

Basing on my own experiences, I support short-term antidepressant use for getting over tough periods in your life. Last time I went on antidepressants I ended up taking more chances in my life, since I wasn't as depressed and anxious any more, and somehow landed myself into a relationship and from there my whole life storyline has changed.

Of course you need to be careful with antidepressants, may have to try several before you get the right one and watch out for any side-effects that may make you feel worse.

I guess what I really want to ask is: how do you fellow INTPs deal with your recurring nihilistic/damaging/dark thoughts.
I can't get past them. I don't even think I can put these thoughts in to words anymroe, I just hope you can all understand what I am implying. Just the endless second guessing of yourself and not knowing whether you will ever escape the thought patterns and wondering if you can ever accomplish anything this way.

In terms of MBTI the dark nihilistic thoughts can result from being Ti dominant and always seeing everything in strictly logical terms. It can suck the enjoyment out of life (after all people are still very emotional creatures at their core). The counter-balance to Ti is its opposing function Fe, so what you can do is try to seek out Fe: listen to songs written by ExFJs and IxFJs, join a theater club and learn some acting, read some sappy stories, etc. Basically expose yourself to emotions from outside so that you wouldn't have to create them yourself in such dramatic ways.

Also I recommend that you read the section on inferior Fe from Forms of Inferior. It says that emotional break-outs are common for INTPs. So you shouldn't think that something is wrong with you for this.

 

[Duxwing]

+1 On the sappy stories! I love slow, sweet, non-kinky romance novels with unique, well-developed characters (and happy endings!) when my Fe is hungry. I prefer books to movies because the former allows me to use my imagination and go at my own pace. The particularly good ones deliver wisdom about relationships, personal growth, and feelings at their ends. Oddly enough, I don't find trashy novels nearly as interesting because the sexual element is often forced, crude, and an unwelcome distraction from the delicate, powerful emotional tapestry that the author weaves throughout his or her work.

-Duxwing