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Game of Thrones

Reluctantly

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spoiler over today's episode. Don't click if you haven't watched yet.

Sansa's smile at the end...so perfect. I love how she has gone from innocent and innocuous to conniving and a little evil. She feels more real to me now, but I also relate a lot more to her than the other characters.

I feel like baelish and Sansa would be perfect for each other at this point, so maybe it's smart that she's decided to ally with him.
 
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I watched an episode of this crap show the other day. The camera isn't even shaking so it's boring as fuck to look at and every character is a despiccable cunt anyway so there's no reason to begin with. Is it the "Wow, bold and artistic to dare show boring and horrible shit on TV" factor still hyping this up?
 

Jennywocky

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Season 6 has been kind of hit or miss for me.

There are occasional great scenes (like Hodor, or Jaime and Brienne, or Jamie and Edmure, or how Dani takes hold of the Dothraki, or Jon Snow's return, or last night involving Sansa and Ramsay) -- stuff that has more nuance and helps flesh out character.

But some stuff now feels very hurried, truncated, or simplified to make it go quicker, losing some of the show's earlier nuance. It even introduces some real logical inconsistencies that ruin the story for me.

For example, Arya getting stabbed a number of times in the abdomen after behaving so stupidly in Braavos -- I first had trouble believing she had been so clumsy about things after lurking in her hidey hole, so it had to be a ruse, but... nope. She was just stupid. And the damage she'd take from infection would have killed her. She certainly wouldn't have been able to run around town like that; anyone who has had abdominal surgery would know the recuperation time and how you can't really do much, and she was stabbed and her guts perforated. It was really disappointing that instead of being handled rationally, suddenly Arya is essentially superhuman instead.

Also, the great thing about early GoT is how it would subvert narrative expectation. I feel pretty much lately that everything is happening pretty much as expected. So much for being subversive. I know it's harder, the close you get to the end of the story, but there are typically no large twists anymore where what seemed obvious instead ends up being not obvious at all.
 
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Is it the "Wow, bold and artistic to dare show boring and horrible shit on TV" factor still hyping this up?
I don't like it either but then again I only saw like a couple of episodes. 2 of my friends keep talking about it and sometimes discuss certain episodes/scenes in great detail tho so i have a good idea what the show is about and so on...Tbh im still unable to see what is so interesting about the storyline or the characterisation
 
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The show goes for some shock value.
Okay just skimmed through the thread and found this ^. Thanks i think i now know what my problem with the show is. Shows/films that thrive on shock value usually do so to cover lack of substance. If the viewer is too busy being shocked/emotionally manipulated it will cover up for lack of real expressiveness or meaningful evocativeness

*escapes thread before everyone kills me*
 

Jennywocky

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Ramsay (blatant spoiler):

At least he died doing what he loved most in the world: Feeding his hounds.

And what was that little Sansa smirk at the end? ;)
 
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Okay just skimmed through the thread and found this ^. Thanks i think i now know what my problem with the show is. Shows/films that thrive on shock value usually do so to cover lack of substance. If the viewer is too busy being shocked/emotionally manipulated it will cover up for lack of real expressiveness or meaningful evocativeness

*escapes thread before everyone kills me*
Agreed.

A few people have been trying to get me to watch this shit, hell to the no.
 

onesteptwostep

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I watched the first season as it aired then never really got back into it. My ISP throttled by connection so it's not possible for me to torrent files overseas anymore D:

I can't be bothered to watch the streams either. From a lot of the commentary on the web, it looks like they're going into the time travel phase and'll probably end within a couple of seasons.
 

Jennywocky

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I'm not sure what you mean by time travel. There's been two episodes with a character who is able to observe events both past and present, but that's been it.

I think this next season will be the last, tbh; they've been rushing all the storylines forward (too fast, probably), and setting up for what looks to be one more season. (Season 7.) If it went to a full eight seasons, I'd be shocked.
 

Fukyo

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I watched an episode of this crap show the other day. The camera isn't even shaking so it's boring as fuck to look at and every character is a despiccable cunt anyway so there's no reason to begin with. Is it the "Wow, bold and artistic to dare show boring and horrible shit on TV" factor still hyping this up?
The show is edgy, but not as edgy as you. :phear:
 

Turnevies

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I'm not so sure about the remaining seasons. As it seems for now, there are still at least three wars to fight: The North vs the Lannisters, Westeros vs Daenarys and the living vs the White Walkers.

I think the makers don't have the end in mind yet, as long as the show keeps making money they will keep making new seasons I expect.

What happened last episode was about what I expected, but it was what should have been happening: it would be kinda stupid if the Boltons won two similar battles on Winterfell, the storylines must keep changing so for the next season it is good that someone else rules the North again. So far, I had the impression almost nothing significant has happened this season, except perhaps the treaty between the crown and the high sparrow. There are also a number of characters in the show for too long, it's about time stupid Cersei gets killed as well imo.

I don't consider GoT as very 'intelectually fulfilling" or so, but it is fun. The presence of 'substance' is pretty subjective, so there is not much use in arguing on it.

@onetwostep: http://pirateproxylist.com/, there must be at least one mirror at your side of the 'sea', right?
 

Cheeseumpuffs

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I'm not sure what you mean by time travel. There's been two episodes with a character who is able to observe events both past and present, but that's been it.
Technically he should be able to see the future, too, seeing as the weirwood network isn't concerned with pesky things like time. I am a bit confused how he's seeing things that aren't witnessed by weirwoods, though, considering that in the books he can only see from one tree to another.

I think this next season will be the last, tbh; they've been rushing all the storylines forward (too fast, probably), and setting up for what looks to be one more season. (Season 7.) If it went to a full eight seasons, I'd be shocked.
The plan from the beginning was 7 seasons (iirc they convinced hbo to do 1 season per book but then fucked up and spent like 4 seasons on 2 books). They might stretch it out to an eighth, but that's super unlikely, I think.

These last couple seasons have just been a rush to get to the end, so they've been using all kinds of shortcuts and lazy writing to get where they need to go and then they substitute the aforementioned shock value in order to hide the fact that substance has been leaking out of the show like a perforated balloon.

I think the makers don't have the end in mind yet, as long as the show keeps making money they will keep making new seasons I expect.
The end is literally the only thing they have in mind. From the beginning it was pretty much known that the show would overtake the books so GRRM told them how it would all end and left it up to them to get there in the manner they thought best. It's this bullshit middle bit that they don't know what the fuck they're doing with.

They might do a spinoff in the same universe (the Dunk and Egg stories, maybe), but I'm pretty sure they're trying to end at 7 (unlikely 8).

There are also a number of characters in the show for too long, it's about time stupid Cersei gets killed as well imo.
Tommen has to die first.
also Kevan and Pycelle
 

Reluctantly

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I watched an episode of this crap show the other day. The camera isn't even shaking so it's boring as fuck to look at and every character is a despiccable cunt anyway so there's no reason to begin with. Is it the "Wow, bold and artistic to dare show boring and horrible shit on TV" factor still hyping this up?
Yeah, I know, they actually kept the camera steady so you can actually see what's happening, just awful.

Okay just skimmed through the thread and found this ^. Thanks i think i now know what my problem with the show is. Shows/films that thrive on shock value usually do so to cover lack of substance. If the viewer is too busy being shocked/emotionally manipulated it will cover up for lack of real expressiveness or meaningful evocativeness

*escapes thread before everyone kills me*
To be fair, there is a shock value element; but it's also a world full of extreme violence where the ruthless are trying to get what they want at the expense of others and their suffering; those with any kind of moral backbone have to try harder and be smarter and even be a little ruthless, so maybe that's why I find it interesting nonetheless.

You also can't judge the show from watching it in little bits, here and there; there are many stories happening at once that all tie in together at certain parts; the way the first season starts also colors the direction of the rest of the show. I'd say if you didn't like the first season, then no you won't like the show.

Ramsay (blatant spoiler):

...
And what was that little Sansa smirk at the end? ;)
:D

For example, Arya getting stabbed a number of times in the abdomen after behaving so stupidly in Braavos -- I first had trouble believing she had been so clumsy about things after lurking in her hidey hole, so it had to be a ruse, but... nope. She was just stupid. And the damage she'd take from infection would have killed her. She certainly wouldn't have been able to run around town like that; anyone who has had abdominal surgery would know the recuperation time and how you can't really do much, and she was stabbed and her guts perforated. It was really disappointing that instead of being handled rationally, suddenly Arya is essentially superhuman instead.
I thought it was weird too. She was almost certainly going to die and then all of a sudden, she's fine. But maybe it ties in with the many-faced God, choosing her or something. I haven't read the books.



Also, the great thing about early GoT is how it would subvert narrative expectation. I feel pretty much lately that everything is happening pretty much as expected. So much for being subversive. I know it's harder, the close you get to the end of the story, but there are typically no large twists anymore where what seemed obvious instead ends up being not obvious at all.
Yeah, but a lot of the characters are getting smarter, playing the game better. I like it, as the characters are still evolving, even if the show's getting a little more predictable.
 

Jennywocky

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Yeah, that's the other half of it -- if you keep subverting expectations and killing off all the "heroes," then either Littlefinger or the Walkers win.

I'm still trying to figure out whether the Walkers are just an impending force of nature that must be destroyed or whether they can actually be reasoned with in some way. What exactly do they want? The origin story this past season suggests maybe there's something they want, but ... I'm not sure how the show will play it.

Sansa has gone from one of my despised characters to really kind of fascinating -- she had totally wrong expectations for reality, and now she has embraced that there is nothing to set things right in the world, and it's up to her to strive for what she wants to happen. Of course, she was essentially a kid at the start of the narrative, and now she's matured and actually become rather formidable; she was a very whiny teen, in the beginning, who thought her prince would come along and make her life perfect, yada yada yada. Welcome to hell.

I don't find this season as intellectually stimulating, but for the first 4-5 seasons there was actually a lot to try and figure out in terms of motivations and what history was rewritten and who really was supporting who, etc.


RE: Cersei:

She's probably the character I have hated most since the beginning of the show... positively self-centered and wicked, refusing to take responsibility, admit faults, etc. She's done some absolutely loathsome things even to members of her own family (esp Tyrion).

And then this past season, they had to screw that up for me by providing a bit of sympathy for her. ;) The losses she has suffered have made her think, she was victimized by the Sparrow, she's becoming more aware, she's more willing to confess her faults. She realizes the prophecy is coming true, and that, well... yeah, it's made her more human. She'll never be exonerated for all the crap she has done, but she's been acquiring some self-awareness and self-evaluation.

I'm still a big fan of Olenna Tyrell. (Diana Rigg for the win.)
 

Cheeseumpuffs

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I thought it was weird too. She was almost certainly going to die and then all of a sudden, she's fine. But maybe it ties in with the many-faced God, choosing her or something. I haven't read the books.
No, the Many-faced God isn't really even a god. It's just some mythology the Faceless Men seem to have cooked up as a combination of every faith known to man (the House of Black and White in the books has a statue of every known god in its hall) which justifies the notion of "balance" or some shit. Essentially they're just assassins who have a "code" represented by the Many-Faced God.

So no, Arya hasn't been chosen by anyone. She does technically have supernatural abilities, but none that would allow her to survive that. It was just a dumb scene all around. I watched that episode with my roommate and we were just laughing the whole time about how dumb that entire sequence was.

Not to mention how horribly they wrote the part of the Waif. She's so fucking weird and aggressive in the show, which is nothing like her in the books. The Waif shouldn't want Arya dead because the Waif is literally hundreds of years old and doesn't actually seem to feel emotion.

I'm still trying to figure out whether the Walkers are just an impending force of nature that must be destroyed or whether they can actually be reasoned with in some way. What exactly do they want? The origin story this past season suggests maybe there's something they want, but ... I'm not sure how the show will play it.
I remember a while ago reading a thing where GRRM said he didn't want to make any one thing or character in his book an embodiment of "evil" and that the White Walkers won't be Westeros' version of Orcs or whatever. They have some kind of hierarchy/organization/motivation, I'm almost certain. We just haven't been tuned in to it yet.
 

Jennywocky

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[No, the Many-faced God isn't really even a god. It's just some mythology the Faceless Men seem to have cooked up as a combination of every faith known to man (the House of Black and White in the books has a statue of every known god in its hall) which justifies the notion of "balance" or some shit. Essentially they're just assassins who have a "code" represented by the Many-Faced God.

So no, Arya hasn't been chosen by anyone. She does technically have supernatural abilities, but none that would allow her to survive that. It was just a dumb scene all around. I watched that episode with my roommate and we were just laughing the whole time about how dumb that entire sequence was.

Not to mention how horribly they wrote the part of the Waif. She's so fucking weird and aggressive in the show, which is nothing like her in the books. The Waif shouldn't want Arya dead because the Waif is literally hundreds of years old and doesn't actually seem to feel emotion.
Yeah, I didn't know the book, but they essentially set the Waif up like a villain who was out to get Arya and just really did not like her. Plus, she was told to "make it quick" and instead she gut stabbed her a few times to make her suffer. Not what I would expect from a Faceless One.

So I had been wondering if maybe Jaqen had set it up so that Arya would remove the Waif because she no longer followed the virtues of the Faceless cult. I had so many interpretations of that sequence as possible, and it ended up being the dumbest -- Arya does behave stupidly, she survives gut wounds that should have killed anyone, there's an amazing chase she shouldn't have been able to participate in, and then walks off at the end apparently still just fine without bleeding out. Wheee.

I remember a while ago reading a thing where GRRM said he didn't want to make any one thing or character in his book an embodiment of "evil" and that the White Walkers won't be Westeros' version of Orcs or whatever. They have some kind of hierarchy/organization/motivation, I'm almost certain. We just haven't been tuned in to it yet.
That's my hope too -- I really want there to be more to them than just "standard baddy."

But the show as it has moved away from GRRM's vision has increasingly disappointed me in that regard. The whole Dorne thing was terrible, and I don't feel like bitching about all the other disappointing plot points.

It's just the earlier intrigue of the show plus every so often some really great character scenes (like Jaime and Brienne recently, or Jaime and Edmure, etc etc etc) that are pretty cool, especially if you've followed the show and know subtext.
 

onesteptwostep

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I'm not sure what you mean by time travel. There's been two episodes with a character who is able to observe events both past and present, but that's been it.

I think this next season will be the last, tbh; they've been rushing all the storylines forward (too fast, probably), and setting up for what looks to be one more season. (Season 7.) If it went to a full eight seasons, I'd be shocked.
I saw a Vox video and cannot be dissuaded to think otherwise.

@onetwostep: http://pirateproxylist.com/, there must be at least one mirror at your side of the 'sea', right?
Nay, I'm in Japan :[

I think it's karma for me watching too much anime during my teens.
 

Redfire

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1- Bolton played it wonderfully, and he in fact won the battle. So the good guys are saved by Deus Ex Machina. Again. At least the wildlings get to be on the winning side for once :P
2- How is Sansa clever? Why wouldn't she tell Jon about Littlefinger's support? And how is he communicating exactly, so he would know to charge just at the right time? Do they have iPhones or something? If she's sending ravens, who is sending them, can he be trusted?

But yeah, there's a million things wrong with this seasons. But overall, I think Jenny nailed it: GoT was always about subverting narrative expectations, and lately the show has been totally obvious

Do we really need to use spoiler tags? People should open this thread at their own risk. When I'm behind in the show I never read it.

Whataver :P
 

Jennywocky

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I saw a Vox video and cannot be dissuaded to think otherwise.
That's exactly the character I was speaking about, and he was like in two episodes.

Apparently warging into someone from where you're observing them in the past, so you can take over the present-day body is a really crappy idea...

In any case, I'm not really keen on it either for this series, although it seems a very limited thing (one character, and it makes sense for him as he observes the entire time stream). It depends on whether they make too much of it, it was endurable so far.
 

Reluctantly

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1- Bolton played it wonderfully, and he in fact won the battle. So the good guys are saved by Deus Ex Machina. Again. At least the wildlings get to be on the winning side for once :P
2- How is Sansa clever? Why wouldn't she tell Jon about Littlefinger's support? And how is he communicating exactly, so he would know to charge just at the right time? Do they have iPhones or something? If she's sending ravens, who is sending them, can he be trusted?

But yeah, there's a million things wrong with this seasons. But overall, I think Jenny nailed it: GoT was always about subverting narrative expectations, and lately the show has been totally obvious
Yes, Bolton did play wonderfully; he got Jon Snow to act like Sansa knew he would. And Sansa also knew Jon Snow would not listen to her because he didn't care that she understood Ramsey on a personal level.

Sansa is clever because she understood all that and got reinforcements to hide in waiting and attack when it was opportune. She probably also thought it would be a good idea to use Littlefinger as a fall back for the reinforcements, because with Jon gone, who else would she turn to for some kind of protection? In essence, should the battle prove unwinnable, she could have easily disappeared with Littlefinger. Not to mention that this is a really good play for her because Littlefinger is very clever and could probably think of something to help her out and he also has only to gain power by helping her take out Ramsey and claim the North.

I mean let's face it, Jon isn't going to contest with Littlefinger over power; he doesn't even want it. They said it in the show that he's not a King. On the other hand, Sansa could take power with maybe Littlefinger at her side or even perhaps married (again I haven't read the books, so just speculation). So Sansa getting Littlefinger to help is really good for both of them and I wouldn't expect Littlefinger to think about betraying her; at least not right now. It's a good bet for Sansa.

Now maybe I have a wild imagination or something and all of this is off, but I think she's gotten quite clever.

edit:
oh, you may not know this (don't know how much you've watched), but Littlefinger has had a thing with Sansa for a while. Although she seems to know that he's conniving and that he essentially gave her to Ramsey, she also knows he's willing to help her for power. It hasn't been overtly stated, but I think she's smart enough to know that Littlefinger is power-hungry. So as long as she can fulfill that for him, she can trust him. He's her perfect ally in that regard.
 

Reluctantly

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Yeah, but she wasn't really deceiving anyone either
because Ramsey was an enemy. She just played on what she knew about everyone to get the outcome she desired or at least an acceptable alternative (if the battle couldn't be won).
I guess I'm not sure what to call it then, but she's become more open-minded and aware of what's going on around her at least. Her decision-making has evolved. Maybe Machiavellian is a better word for it, as that's kind of the essence of the show.

yeah I'm going with Machiavellian.

edit: nevermind, I guess cunning works if she's considered interpersonally duplicitous, which is kind of what she's become.
 

Cheeseumpuffs

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the House of Black and White in the books has a statue of every known god in its hall
Correction:
They don't have statues to every god. Just the gods of other religions which represent death. There are about 30 statues in all, including the Stranger (one of the Seven gods of the Andals). The philosophy behind that is that when people pray to their respective gods (in a capacity that deals with death) they're really all just praying to the same god who just wears many faces (ie. their god is Death itself).

Syrio Forel (aka the Arya's "dancing master" from back in season 1) said it pretty well when he said "There is only one god. That god is death. And what do we say to the god of death? Not today." (Paraphrasing)

That's an oft-cited piece of evidence in the theory that Syrio Forel actually is a Faceless Man who later becomes Jaquen H'ghar (who, by the way, is NOT the man who trains Arya in Bravos. The most interesting theories currently suspect the assassin formerly known as Jaquen H'ghar to be killing people in Oldtown and gaining access to the glass (obsidian) candles the maesters have there. Let me tell you, these Faceless Men have an agenda of their own. I dunno what it is, but I don't think this is the last we've heard from them).
 

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I'm a little confused as to how House Bolton suddenly became the roman empire. They have by far the most advanced (realistic) military so far. I was pretty angry that Jon went full retard. He seems a little nihilistic and tired so it kind of makes sense to give few fucks, but it was just a little bit to stupid to make sense to me. While the fight was very choreographed, and particular outcomes were predictable, it was rather bad ass I must say. It felt movie grade IMO. Brutal.

The ships with trebs on them were epic stupid. The slavers managed to build an enormous fleet of advanced floating siege engines without any word getting out until they're literally right outside the city? lol. Dany coming in was pretty obv too. Lame.

@Jenny
I think the WW aren't just a standard baddy even if the method of their backstory reeks of orc. I'm sure they're real characters with real culture that's just too foreign to understand. Martin doesn't leave loose areas in his worlds as far as I've seen. I doubt we'll get to understand that culture before the show is done though.

I think Sansa is a demonstration of what it takes to turn someone into a bad person. There's kind of a naivete in the privileged, a soft-claim that if, given the same circumstances as the unprivileged, they'd just rise above it somehow. Sansa illustrates how you go from such lofty ideals to base (or maybe advanced) cunning. I think the last bit of sadism from her was maybe too much? The most outstanding part for me was when she swallowed what LittleFinger did in order to make things go the way she needed. They didn't need to make her a sadist to illustrate the point (if I'm in the ballpark that is).
 

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The ships with trebs on them were epic stupid. The slavers managed to build an enormous fleet of advanced floating siege engines without any word getting out until they're literally right outside the city? lol. Dany coming in was pretty obv too. Lame.
Yeah, it makes it look almost like it was conveniently staged by Varys (I mean, come on -- the awesome spymaster with all his little birds had no inkling? Of known enemies that should have been being observed continuously?), but the logic has been shoddy enough this season with various storylines that it might be exactly what they would have us believe.

@Jenny
I think the WW aren't just a standard baddy even if the method of their backstory reeks of orc. I'm sure they're real characters with real culture that's just too foreign to understand. Martin doesn't leave loose areas in his worlds as far as I've seen. I doubt we'll get to understand that culture before the show is done though.
I would hope. The problem is the show has cut corners a lot this season especially not keying directly off Martin's writing. this might be a case where the books will be more expansive and make much more rational sense even if the show and books eventually both get to the same place.

I think Sansa is a demonstration of what it takes to turn someone into a bad person. There's kind of a naivete in the privileged, a soft-claim that if, given the same circumstances as the unprivileged, they'd just rise above it somehow. Sansa illustrates how you go from such lofty ideals to base (or maybe advanced) cunning. I think the last bit of sadism from her was maybe too much? The most outstanding part for me was when she swallowed what LittleFinger did in order to make things go the way she needed. They didn't need to make her a sadist to illustrate the point (if I'm in the ballpark that is).
I felt like that this sort of sadism was always part of Sansa. She is very black and white. She is a believer in justice. She has watched her beloved family be tortured and murdered. She has watched evil triumph again and again in her life. She has lost everything she loved and valued.

it was totally believable to me just based on her own nature that on some level she felt some level of joy to see someone who had committed so many vile deeds suffer his comeuppance, and her role in it is like a blow for all the people that Ramsay wronged. She's not detached.
 

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I hated Jon Snow for doing what he did too; it's like he had no brain. Full retard and all that, really different from him before. Jon was always a little emo before, but it was understandable to me at least; now he's gone full wrist-cutting.

@Hado
So you think Sansa is a bad person then?


I have mixed feelings about Cersei, but for some reason I think the best part of the show for me has been Cersei saying "I choose violence". I guess it's the idea of being able to say "fuck you", while simultaneously and calmly hurting the people that want to hurt her. Something about that is very...pleasantly primal to me.
 

Cheeseumpuffs

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Yeah, it makes it look almost like it was conveniently staged by Varys (I mean, come on -- the awesome spymaster with all his little birds had no inkling? Of known enemies that should have been being observed continuously?), but the logic has been shoddy enough this season with various storylines that it might be exactly what they would have us believe.
I don't think it has anything to do with Varys being either malicious or incompetent, but rather the showrunners being incompetent.
yay you all get to hear me make fun of the show and how it sucks compared to the books.
I'm sorry if this is getting old for you guys.
The thing with Varys is that he never went to Meereen in the books, so the showrunners just shoved him over there (probably to give him some scenes with Tyrion because everyone loved their Kings Landing scenes (although I think they even missed the point there because what everyone loved about those scenes was the intrigue of them being on the same team but also unsure of the other's loyalty (kind of like a game of Mafia :D) and not the random shitty banter)). So yeah, the showrunners just inserted him into a place he technically isn't and:
1. They've repeatedly demonstrated that they're not very good at maintaining character development when they go off-book.
2. If they kept Varys true to his character in Meereen he would probably be too effective at what he does which would change circumstances there which would change the key beats of the plot which would make it harder for them to get to the end they want.

It's kind of clear that the showrunners have two priorities:

Give the audience what (we think) they want. (ie. boobs, "shocking" deaths, and "witty" banter)
AND
Get to the end as quickly and easily (and lazily) as possible.


Edit: Again, I'm sorry for the repeated "show sucks now. books are better" posts. I feel like it's probably getting old for you guys, but it's just hard to keep my mouth shut when I was so invested in the book series and now watching so many people loving the show which makes a half-assed mockery of the world and characters I've put a surprising amount of emotional investment into.
 

Jennywocky

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Well, we did get a peen in Season 6.
But it had a cold sore on it.
So I'm kinda meh on that one.

But yeah, I'm NOT a book reader and I see a distinct difference between this season and previous seasons. There are still some really great character scenes, but also some horrible illogical and on-the-nose shit that filtered in, unfortunately. So comparing them when you actually ARE a book reader seems very natural and reasonable. I do think the show has handled some scenes really really well (regardless of book), which is why I remain a fan; but I see some large problems that irk me.

Actually, your feelings here are what I feel when people get all glowy about the Lord of the Rings movies... I get it.

I have mixed feelings about Cersei, but for some reason I think the best part of the show for me has been Cersei saying "I choose violence". I guess it's the idea of being able to say "fuck you", while simultaneously and calmly hurting the people that want to hurt her. Something about that is very...pleasantly primal to me.
I loved that line, even if it was overhyped in the episode trailer.

The acting still continues to be decent. The expression on her face, the tone... it seemed nuanced, as if she knew she was committing to a path with an inevitable end, but in true Cersei form she had to go that route, and on some level she relished it. Headey delivered it well.
 

Cheeseumpuffs

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Actually, your feelings here are what I feel when people get all glowy about the Lord of the Rings movies... I get it.
What was your problem with them? I read the books for them, too (it was a requirement of my mother that I read the books before I see the movies, lest the graphic nature of a PG-13 film might scar me), but I really love the movies. I thought they were rather faithful to the books.


Also I'm watching the latest episode and I'll add my thoughts as I have them. I'm not going to use spoilers so read on at your own risk:

Sequence 1 - Meereen.
OhmygodIdon'tgiveafuckaboutDaenerys. Every new scene she's in is worse than the last. Insert heavy-handed "don't turn into the Mad King" lecture. Also why are the other dragons almost as big as Drogon? They've been on a hunger strike in the catacombs while Drogon gets his pick of the countryside for literally months. Looks like Dany has her fleet now, though. I wonder what that means for the Ironborn. I guess Asha (I'm not calling her Yara, that's bullshit (especially now that Osha is dead)) might become her naval commander and then I guess her first real battle would be with the Ironborn when they try to take control of the dragons. Did Euron Crow's-Eye (who should be wearing an eyepatch, by the way) mention the horn at the kingsmoot? I can't remember. Well, either way, he has a horn which supposedly can take control of dragons when you blow it.

Sequence 2 - Winterfell Negotiations and war council
Is Jon's northern accent getting thicker? "I haven't fed my dogs for 7 days" well I guess we know how Ramsey dies. Fitting. Yet totally obvious. It's weird how little snow there is around Winterfell. Stannis' army was crippled by the harsh conditions of the approaching winter. Theon and Sansa (fake Arya, in the books) survived jumping from the walls because they were cushioned by snow. Yet now there's... nothing? The situation in the north right now should be confusing and tempestuous, made even more so by the fact that the weather is no friend to either side and that most people right now are desperately struggling to figure out how they're going to survive the winter, much less the war. Duuuuuuuude. Are Jon and Sansa gonna bang at some point?


Next - Davos and Tormund
Oh look we put our trust in kings and it didn't go great blah blah blah jon's not a king let's all suck his dick gobble gobble. Jesus, I'm tried of how obvious they're being about Jon being the rightful king of everything and the most heroic person in the world. When does Jon do something evil? That's all I want.

Duuuuuuuude. Are Asha (I'm not calling her Yara) and Daenerys gonna bang at some point?


Back to the north - Jon's army prepares
Motherfucking Wun Wun. What a guy. Definitely thought Ramsey was going to play torture games with Rickon like he did Theon but with the added bonus that Jon sits and watches or compromises his battle plan. Good on the show for not doing that. I love how delightful Ramsey can be sometimes (ie. "Let's play a game!" *smile*). Shame Rickon lost. Then dumb Jon is dumb, because of course. No amount of emotional distress will make you think that charging alone towards a line of bowmen backed by cavalry is even close to a good idea. Very well-shot cavalry collision. Very pretty. Oh no I hope Tormund doesn't die. Motherfucking Wun Wun. God damn deus ex littlefinger. Jon deserved to lose. I hope Ramsey doesn't beg like a little bitch when he dies. That would ruin it. He should die either laughing or having a tantrum because he lost the game. He shouldn't beg. What he's turning and running? He had a whole 'nother line of horsemen backing him up, I could've sworn. Continuity error maybe? Oh no, don't kill Wun Wun, please don't kill him no no no NO NO. HE JUST PUT AN ARROW THROUGH WUN WUN''S EYE DON'T YOU DARE TAKE HIM UP ON PERSONAL COMBAT YOU HAVE ARCHERS EVERYWHERE SHOOT HIM DOWN LIKE THE ANIMAL HE IS. Good. Yes, Jon Snow. Give in to your anger. Loving Ramsey's half-smile as he gets the shit knocked out of him. Please don't beg, Ramsey. Please don't beg. I want your exit from this world to be as fucked up and sickeningly evil as your existence in it has been.

Eh, not the coolest it could've been, but I wasn't disappointed. 6.5/10 on your death, Ramsey. You were one hell of a villain. When fake Arya said that thing about the dogs to Theon I actually felt rage to the point where I thought I might throw up. Goodnight, sweet prince.
 

Hadoblado

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Keep it coming CP, you're just a little bit hilarious <3

I was angry that the giant died. So predictable. Would have been interesting to expand on the giants but nooo000 we need to have him die...
 

Cheeseumpuffs

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Keep it coming CP, you're just a little bit hilarious <3

I was angry that the giant died. So predictable. Would have been interesting to expand on the giants but nooo000 we need to have him die...
*tries to determine if that's sarcasm because of the complex he has where he's pretty sure he's not funny*

To be honest though, I'm kind of glad he made it this far. Last we book folks have heard from the Wall was at Jon's stabbing which was a far more open conflict that involved Wun Wun (one of Stannis' men provoked Wun Wun who started slapping him against like... all... of the surfaces and the coup took place in all that commotion), so I'd been kind of expecting that Wun Wun and a decent number of wildlings would be taken out in the ensuing madness.

Edit: I do agree, though. It would be really awesome to get more insight on the giants. Even the book has been obscure on them (at least in the book they have their own language, though, rather than the numerous kinds of grunting the show has apparently designated for them).
 

Redfire

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1- LF: "Hey, do you want all this soldiers fighting for you, free of charge?"
S "No way, get out of here!"
(...)
S: "Yeah ok, bring them"
I still don't get how is that cunning, conniving, smart or Machiavellian in any way.

2-
I'm a little confused as to how House Bolton suddenly became the roman empire. They have by far the most advanced (realistic) military so far.
lol, I was thinking the same thing when I saw that, I forgot to comment. Do the Boltons always fight like that? Do they innovated suddenly, and just had all those shields lying around?
Or did the GoT guys just decided it would look cool and ran with it?

3- What Mr Cheese said.
I'm glad to find someone who agrees that the LOTR movies were cool, by the way. I also read the books before (they were actually among the first long books I've read), and I liked them. I was very young though (I was 10 when Return of the King came out), so I always figured that might be why I liked them (I still like them though).
And The Hobbit movies suck.

4- Jon Snow is Aragorn. That is pretty much obvious at this point. I actually thought it was kind of obvious in the books, but Martin is known for suggesting something and then subverting it. That is: often being more clever than the audience.
In the show it's just too obvious, though. It's a very common trope. He doesn't want the throne, which means he gets it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3o2LqFZcGU
 

Jennywocky

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Moah Yara + Dany gettin' it on...
They were practically groping each other with their eyes across the throne room there.

Keep it coming CP, you're just a little bit hilarious <3

I was angry that the giant died. So predictable. Would have been interesting to expand on the giants but nooo000 we need to have him die...
All the deaths were cheap shots.

Yup, kill the giant -- story has no time to focus on him, so he's expendable + cheap pathos.

Kill Rickon. Cuz he never amounted to shit in the story anyway. Didn't do anything before, didn't do anything now except run in a straight line (learned from the school of Meredith Vickers!)

But naw, no one else.

However, I did see an article today recalling a S5 episode I forgot about where Littlefinger says he will retake Winterfell (and asks to be named warden of the north if he succeeds) and Cersei says once she see Sansa's head on a spike, she'll make it happen for him.

Yeah. Not good for Sansa, especially considering Jon's army is trashed and Littlefinger is essentially occupying Winterfell right now. Although Littlefinger's crushing on her dead mom Catelyn might mean he'll be unable to seal the deal and look for some other way to consolidate power for himself.
 

Cheeseumpuffs

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Or did the GoT guys just decided it would look cool and ran with it?
I think this. In the books the Bolton force is currently made up of:
A small force of Bolton men.
Ramsey's personal squad of "Bastards"
Mostly Frey soldiers
A decent size force of Manderly soldiers (who are intending on betraying the Boltons, as Lord Manderly has actually sent Davos off to search for Rickon (still not dead! (but he will, his dog isn't named Shaggydog for nothing)) in order to install him as the King in the North).
A force of Karstark men (currently with Stannis' forces and intending on betraying Stannis (although Stannis has fake Arya and Theon who knows about the plot so he's had the Karstark leaders chained/executed (can't remember which)).

The show makes it seem like the Bolton's hold on Winterfell is ensured due to the largeness and effectiveness of their force, but in the books the Bolton force is divided and confused (Freys keep winding up dead and it's most likely Mance Rayder (who isn't dead yet) but the Freys are blaming the Manderlys (who actually have killed a couple Freys (yay Frey Pies!))). The only real reason the Boltons are remotely secure in Winterfell is actually because of the weather. The North is basically in whiteout conditions right now. The books describe walking out the main hall of Winterfell and not even being able to see the walls of the castle. The Bolton force is even getting fucked by how harsh this pre-winter is, so all they have to do is huddle up indoors while any army that tries to attack freezes their fucking balls of out in the cold (as Stannis is currently doing).

I'm glad to find someone who agrees that the LOTR movies were cool, by the way. I also read the books before (they were actually among the first long books I've read), and I liked them. I was very young though (I was 10 when Return of the King came out), so I always figured that might be why I liked them (I still like them though).
And The Hobbit movies suck.
I agree with literally every word here (except that I was 8 when Return of the King came out). Also fuck the Hobbit movies. I couldn't even stand the second one enough to warrant me watching the third. And that makes me sad. I really wanted to love them too, but I just couldn't.

4- Jon Snow is Aragorn. That is pretty much obvious at this point. I actually thought it was kind of obvious in the books, but Martin is known for suggesting something and then subverting it. That is: often being more clever than the audience.
In the show it's just too obvious, though. It's a very common trope. He doesn't want the throne, which means he gets it.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3o2LqFZcGU
Yeah. I used to like Jon, back when he was a moody teen who just wanted to do some good. But then the R+L=J theory gained some traction and everyone started loving the fuck out of Jon and as Jonmania grew so too did his absurd and annoyingly obvious amount of heroism and now it's just boring and I know it won't happen but I want him to actually end up as the villain somehow and make all these "Jon is the Prince Who Was Promised" fans eat their fucking words and feel like assholes.

I had thought he'd have a change of character after his resurrection. Beric always said that every time he came back he lost a part of himself, and when he passed his life on to [WEIRD BOOK SPOILER]
Catelyn
, she's shown to be really weird and single-mindedly murderous so I had hopes that Jon would end up the same, where that heroic part of him would have died a little inside and we get to see a more ruthless and less idealistic and perfect Jon Snow.

Also I like how every single episode basically makes sure to reinforce the knowledge that Jon is a bastard and not a true Stark and I'm just waiting for them to reveal either that:
1. Robb actually legitimized Jon when he was king and the papers which say that were lost somewhere in the Neck during the Ironborn invasion
or
2. Jon's dumb parentage. They've basically already confirmed it with the Tower of Joy sequence (also what the fuck? The Sword of Morning never dual wielded. Arthur Dayne wields a motherfucking famous Valyrian steel greatsword. How do you fuck that up, show people?).
 

Cheeseumpuffs

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Moah Yara + Dany gettin' it on...
They were practically groping each other with their eyes across the throne room there.
Seriously. And we've already had the unnecessary brothel scene which showed that she's down with chicks. (Also her name's Asha)

Yup, kill the giant -- story has no time to focus on him, so he's expendable + cheap pathos.
Wun Wun's not expendable in my heart, and that's where it really counts.

Kill Rickon. Cuz he never amounted to shit in the story anyway. Didn't do anything before, didn't do anything now except run in a straight line (learned from the school of Meredith Vickers!)
His direwolf is literally named Shaggydog so yeah, I wasn't surprised to see his role come to a meaningless end.

However, I did see an article today recalling a S5 episode I forgot about where Littlefinger says he will retake Winterfell (and asks to be named warden of the north if he succeeds) and Cersei says once she see Sansa's head on a spike, she'll make it happen for him.

Yeah. Not good for Sansa, especially considering Jon's army is trashed and Littlefinger is essentially occupying Winterfell right now. Although Littlefinger's crushing on her dead mom Catelyn might mean he'll be unable to seal the deal and look for some other way to consolidate power for himself.
I don't remember that episode, but I think Sansa's safe. Littlefinger wants to fuck her in the literal sense, not the figurative sense.

Besides, I have a feeling that Littlefinger will end up getting double crossed by this new ruthless Sansa he's created in a stroke of obvious irony as the conniving trickster gets out-connived.

Edit:Apologies for the double post. I didn't want to edit the last one if Jenny or anyone else was in the process of reading/responding to it.
 

Jennywocky

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Oops. I meant to the add the Shaggydog thing but forgot. yup, it might have been a red herring all long.

Wun Wun deserved better. :( FUCK THE SHOWRUNNERS. There, I feel better.

Yeah, Sansa is no longer easy prey, and Littlefinger seems to want her a lot now. Plus, just because he is a doublecrosser doesn't yet say whether he will doublecross the Lannisters or the Starks here. After all, King's Landing has gone to shit under the lannister reign. He'll reprioritize his goals and then make his decision... unless of course he's REALLY hopped on Sansa's recent gameplaying. She's become a match, although she has little experience.

---

I posted about the Son of the Morning on my FB page about how the dual-wielding shit seemed to be like something they added to be "cool" but was really just dumb. I don't know why the audience gushed over that fight, it kind of bored me.

About J = L + R, I actually figured it out on my own without reading the books, when I was starting the series. I blitzed through a lot of episodes FAST (I caught up with the current episode around the Purple Wedding) and was thinking about it all along, trying to puzzle it out. And then it kind of came to me again, about Ned's character and the like, and the historical framework of the time.

And I went back and rewatched the first two episode of the series, and Ned is dancing all around the identity of Jon's mother, and all the stuff he says to Jon -- what he avoids, etc. I didn't know it was the actual main fan theory until I brought it up on a different site.

But at this point, geez, just end it. it's like knowing Jon is going to come back. Just get it over with.

--

I really don't feel like explaining my issues with LOTR again (i've done on a few different forums, maybe not here). I just get really mad if I think about it too much, and I also know some people really enjoyed them and don't want to be a downer especially because the books and movie worlds are not necessarily the same -- they can be kind of their own version of things even if not reflective of each other.

I took my oldest son to all three movies when they came out, and he was also around eight when the final movie released, I think. (He was born in 1995.) He actually loved them. So I was happy for that, if it inspired him to read more and use his imagination. But he was eight. I was older and had read all the books.

My biggest gripe was that Jackson tends to drift into schlocky horror and that he also has a really bad grasp of non-literal good and evil (EXCEPT for Gollum -- that part he did very well, Serkis was excellent... but that is small tangible evil, not allusions of evil or mythical evil). Those two things are tied together; along with his penchant for doing superfluous action sequences (which really showed up in the Hobbit) and creating opportunities to overblow the schlocky shit (like with the orcs, or the paths of the dead, etc.), he made the Balrog into a mindless video-game boss (when it's actually a powerful fallen angel), and the Watcher into the Water into a big octopus with teeth that of course he had to showcase by having it come out of the water, or making Shelob (who is a spawn of Ungoliant, the devouring being who sucked the lifesap from the two trees of the Valinor in the Undying Lands) into an oversized fucking spider (she's SENTIENT, and OLD, and DRIPPING VENOMOUS EVIL, she's so badass if you actually read the sequence in the books, one of my favorite), or Gandalf into an RPG wizard instead of an ANGEL (which is what he was -- whose power comes from his essence of beings versus casting D&D spells and beating on people with a wooden stick), or instead of doing something more abstract to express Galadriel's temptation, he had to give her "horror schtick demon voice" and become all green and glowy and sparking electricity. WTF? It shows a real lack of directing ability to not be able to handle nuance or a little more abstraction.

And he changed some fundamental stuff, like with Frodo turning on Sam versus Tolkien's persistence that Frodo was the purest of the fellowship. Frodo is pretty amazing in terms of character, and it takes everything from him so that Sam is basically dragging his ass to Mount Doom, there is even a vision sam has of Frodo being an angel clothed in white -- his purity -- with a burning wheel at his breast when he damns gollum and it prophetically ends up becoming true. Frodo does finally buckle under the power of the Ring, but it happens at the mouth of the Cracks of Doom, because he's THERE, literally 5 minutes frmo completeing his quest, and just can't do it anymore. He's mortal, and he succumbs... all mortals are too mortal to resist the ring, in the end.

A director who is better at not being so damn LITERAL (Aronofsky and Lynch are extremes of that, but you get the idea) would have been able to create tension without resorting to schlocky or making things less than they actually are.

I should say that I find Fellowship of the Ring watchable, so it's not that i hate it all (although there are parts of that movie I hate, as mentioned above). It's the only one of the three that I can stomach viewing. Even with Aragorn's character changing (in the book, he always knows he's going to be king, and it's always what he wants to do, he's almost more of a plot device versus a character), I liked that change for the movie. And Boromir was really good too -- thank you Sean Bean, you made Boromir accessible. And even the additional Arwen stuff was meaningful, I tear up when she bravely chooses to take Frodo by herself and is dodging ringwraiths on the plains.

But there was very little in the later movies I could stomach. About the only thing I remember liking that was made up was Pippin singing for Denethor while he was crassly eating while his hated son was getting butchered at the Fords. That was genius. But when Denethor died in the movie I actually laughed in the theater out loud and drew stares. In the book, he had been slowly corrupted by using the palantir to pit his will against Sauron, and now he felt like Minas Tirith was going to die, so he was going to suicide with his last remaining son due to his twisted nobility... and while faramir was saved, Denethor burned himself alive while clutching the palantir and for ages after, if any one tried to use that stone, if they did not possess strong will, all they could ever see were hands withering in the flames. It's a creepy, sad, painful image to imagine. But no, jackson can't really handle something that amazing -- he has to somehow have gandalf set denethor on fire, have denethor run across the entire top of the tower, and then throw himself off the highest point in the city while panning the camera WAY back so we can watch this little burning speck plummet thousands of feet to his death. Saruman's death was highly sensationalized too... falling off the parapets and spiraling around to get spectacularly impaled on his own gate? he's actually an angel too, more powerful than Gandalf btw. (They're Maiar.)

Fuck you Peter Jackson. Fuck you with one of Sam's giant oliphants wearing a giant siege tower on its back filled with the entire horde from the paths of the dead infesting your movie. Let ghosts with sharp bony fingers invade your netherly tunnels forever.

And there, now I started talking about it. gaack. :p Anyway, done. I gotta leave anyway.
 

Redfire

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Well, all of that criticism does make sense, but I think it may be expecting too much from the movies. None of the movies even come near truly great films like, say, The Shining; but they're still pretty good. Tolkien is one of the greatest writers in history and founder of an entire literary genre; any movie director that uses his material is going to fall short. That's why Kubrick didn't want to touch it; he knew he couldn't make something better. Plus: you need to make it watchable for a very large audience if you want to make it profitable. The trick is finding a balance between quality and massive appeal, which I think Jackson did.

So yes: it definitely falls short of Tolkien's work. But still: the acting is fantastic, the scenery is beautiful, the battle scenes are wonderful, etc
 

Jennywocky

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Well, all of that criticism does make sense, but I think it may be expecting too much from the movies. None of the movies even come near truly great films like, say, The Shining; but they're still pretty good. Tolkien is one of the greatest writers in history and founder of an entire literary genre; any movie director that uses his material is going to fall short. That's why Kubrick didn't want to touch it; he knew he couldn't make something better. Plus: you need to make it watchable for a very large audience if you want to make it profitable. The trick is finding a balance between quality and massive appeal, which I think Jackson did.

So yes: it definitely falls short of Tolkien's work. But still: the acting is fantastic, the scenery is beautiful, the battle scenes are wonderful, etc
Great. So I answer a question and now it's, "Well, you shouldn't be so hard on it." Obviously I would like it if I could, if you didn't get that from my post. But I can't. So there it is. If you like it, more power to you.

All the GoT folks can now legitimately shut up about how the show doesn't compare to the books. What's good for one is good for the other.
 
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2. Jon's dumb parentage. They've basically already confirmed it with the Tower of Joy sequence (also what the fuck? The Sword of Morning never dual wielded. Arthur Dayne wields a motherfucking famous Valyrian steel greatsword. How do you fuck that up, show people?).
I posted about the Son of the Morning on my FB page about how the dual-wielding shit seemed to be like something they added to be "cool" but was really just dumb. I don't know why the audience gushed over that fight, it kind of bored me.
The good news is at least (I mean apart from standard show choreography and general inaccuracies) the fight wasn't completely historically inaccurate. As far as game of thrones goes it's up nearer the red viper fight compared to sandsnakes/anything Jaime Lannister.
 

Cheeseumpuffs

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All the GoT folks can now legitimately shut up about how the show doesn't compare to the books. What's good for one is good for the other.
Aha I see what you're trying to do and it won't work. I will never sacrifice that superior feeling I get when I lecture people on all of the billion ways the book surpasses the show muahaha.

I actually do fully understand your gripe with the LotR movies, though. I think (at least between the two of us, I can't speak for the other young folks) it's a difference in perspective afforded by our age gap. If you go watch the special features for the films, Jackson is actually super excited to be making the movies. He's got all this childlike energy and that's why I think it worked for us. It basically was a child's mindset. He (and I) wanted to see everything and feel everything and it all had to be big and impressive, and I was not disappointed. As you said for your son (jesus, I was even born the same year as him. You're basically a cooler internet version of my mom), it made me read more and it expanded my imagination and inspired me more than any work of fiction ever had (or has to this day, maybe). And I think that level of emotional value, to me, overrules any lore inconsistencies and whatnot. (Although, I think Jackson deserves a lot of credit because he definitely did put a lot of effort into cramming lore into the films and I think there are lesser filmmakers who would've been even lazier and more on-the-nose about things)

The good news is at least (I mean apart from standard show choreography and general inaccuracies) the fight wasn't completely historically inaccurate. As far as game of thrones goes it's up nearer the red viper fight compared to sandsnakes/anything Jaime Lannister.
I liked the season 1 fight between Jamie and Ned.

And what do you mean by inaccuracies?
 

Redfire

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Great. So I answer a question and now it's, "Well, you shouldn't be so hard on it." Obviously I would like it if I could, if you didn't get that from my post. But I can't. So there it is. If you like it, more power to you.

All the GoT folks can now legitimately shut up about how the show doesn't compare to the books. What's good for one is good for the other.
Haha, well, I don't remember saying that (although my memory is absolute crap, so maybe I did). I really like the show, except for Emilia Clarke and the last season.

As for LOTR, I just read your criticism and it actually makes sense to me, so sorry if you were looking for a long fight :P. If I didn't agree, I would definitely let you know.
But I still really like them, probably for the reasons Cheese outlined (I was a child when I watched it). I also really like Star Wars I, although I don't like Stars Wars II and III. Again: watched the first one when I was a child. It may be a coincidence, it may not be. There are some actual objective things though, like Liam Neeson (great performance as Qui-Gon).

Did I mention I hate Emilia Clarke? It's crazy because GoT has such a fantastic cast, even for minor characters, so how can they fuck it up so badly when casting for such an important character? It's so wrong.
P.S: I wouldn't like a sexual scene between Asha and her; I hate every single one of her scenes. Although I ofc like her dragons.
Oh! I forgot to comment, since when do the Dothraki yell "aayayayayyayayayay" when charging? Are they indians now?
 

xbox

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Oh! I forgot to comment, since when do the Dothraki yell "aayayayayyayayayay" when charging? Are they indians now?
lmao
 

xbox

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my favorite part this season was bronn + jamie vs the sad tully army thing
also the hound scenes were gr8
 

Reluctantly

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omg@Cersei in the series finale. Just wow. Was not expecting how that played out in the end for her. Won't say anything more till people have a chance to watch it, but wow.

I want to hate her, but her ability to exert power and control is admirable to me.
 

Hadoblado

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Big spoilers:
Cersei played out as expected, although admittedly I expected Tommen to die by wildfire. This has been foreshadowed the fuck out of for quite some time.

Her arc is now complete. I expect her to play out more as a plot device than a character from now on. She's an obstacle to Dany, and her tie to Jaime is specifically an obstacle to Tyrion. If I didn't know that there was a whole other season, I'd suspect Tyrion of convincing Jaime to kill her to wrap it up. While she's queen now, her power should be unconsolidated and frail, given how her method of seizing it went against the spirit of the very power she now possesses. She's lined up against the Targaryans, Martels, Ironborn, Starks, and Tyrels. /w dragons and horse peeps. It makes me sad to think that the writers are going to try and even make it look like she has a chance.

Cleganebowl got canceled, but Jaime or Bronn could make for a good fightscene there. It's possible the hound somehow finds his way to back to Gregor but it seems unlikely.

That said, a final season where everyone's united against the WW might happen. I doubt it (or hope it's not the case), but the next season drama could be convincing Cersei to join rather than actually fighting her for reals.

Also, is it just me or does Dany respect Tyrion far too much for what he's accomplished for her? I'm not sure if I've forgotten something, but I can't think of a single thing he's done that's gone well, and she just hands him the title? Am I being stupid?

How is Arya using the magic of the faceless without access to... well... you know... faces...? Badass regardless. Glad the frays are finally out of the way, I was getting right sick of them. So easy to hate.

Everything feels very... rushed. Next season is either going to be awesome as everything clicks together nicely, or it's going to suck a steaming pile of wriggly dicks.
 

Jennywocky

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Hado: had all the same questions, you weren't the only one.

As purely a cosmetic, Cersei's costuming was pretty cool.

Cersei's Prophecy

Well, the kids are all taken care of -- "gold for their hair, gold for their shrouds."

The Valonqar is the most interesting part now -- the term means "little brother" -- as it went thusly: "And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

For a long time, the assumption was that this would be Tyrion, with a contentious relationship and the blatant enmity between the two (and where Cersei almost managed to get Tyrion executed in Season 4).

Now, thematically, it's become more and more plausible that it could be her incestuous lover twin (who is slightly younger than her) Jaime, mainly because of how it's established from Episode 1 of "what Jaime is willing to do for love" rather flippantly, when he disables Bran by callously pushing him out a window to preserve the secret of the twins' incest, and you'd think this might get revisited / spun around in some way.

- Jaime is ethically noble on some level and willing to break a commitment when the lives of many are at stake -- such as breaking his vow as King's Guard to stop Aerys II from destroying King's Landing with wildfire. Brienne sees the noble aspect to his character, and you see him respond to that. It doesn't help that Cersei has just killed a large number of people using wildfire.

- Jaime's largest point of admiration for Cersei was how she (like Catelyn Stark) would do anything for her babies... but here Cersei has essentially sealed the doom of her last child -- also Jaime's child -- and without a tear climbs upon the throne to claim power. Essentially at this point, Cersei seems to have resigned herself to the inevitable and is now going for broke; there will be no reining her in, her children were her focus before but now they are all gone and she has nothing to live for.

- The look upon Jaime's face at her coronation is unreadable, aside from the "WTF have you done???" She might have in the short-term saved herself and rid the city of The Sparrow and his militants, but she has created a host of difficulties in the long run and essentially ruined the Lannisters in terms of the longevity of the House.

The main difficulty is that Jaime isn't wrapping one of his hands around anyone's throat -- it's made of metal -- but I suppose it depends on how literal the prophecy is.

But essentially you seem the twins moving in opposite directions now. Jaime is moving away from his dark and irresponsible reputation to act more nobly and to preserve life (which you saw flickers of potential for when he broke his vow to murder Aerys), and Cersei is moving away from machinations in the dark and the imposed constraints of protecting her children to simply wielding power with impunity.

How can love survive?


 
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