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Game of Thrones

Jennywocky

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I thought it was weird how they kept killing so many Night's Watch members yet so many were left alive after the battle.
I thought they only started with, like 100 or so soldiers?

... they must have gotten themselves a Star Trek Replicator.
 
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I thought they only started with, like 100 or so soldiers?

... they must have gotten themselves a Star Trek Replicator.
Hm yes quite.

I believe it was around 100.

Also,.....

I'm not sure how John Snow has teeth or the ability to breathe. That was an ANVIL and a VERY STRONG/VIOLENT man.

Good guys don't get hurt just beheaded.
 

Redfire

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I thought they only started with, like 100 or so soldiers?

... they must have gotten themselves a Star Trek Replicator.
I counted about 20 crow deaths shown. Didn't count the wounded, but even if Aemon gets busy some of them should die. Plus, we have to assume many killed and wounded are not shown.
Still, it seems reasonable that there's still a bunch of men left standing on the wall. Plus Slynt and Gilly.
 

Jennywocky

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Hm yes quite.

I believe it was around 100.

Also,.....

I'm not sure how John Snow has teeth or the ability to breathe. That was an ANVIL and a VERY STRONG/VIOLENT man.

Good guys don't get hurt just beheaded.
"Remember, if your head leaves your neck, it's over."



Hmm. I'm not sure I can call that Oberyn situation an official beheading. Not totally.

I counted about 20 crow deaths shown. Didn't count the wounded, but even if Aemon gets busy some of them should die. Plus, we have to assume many killed and wounded are not shown.
Still, it seems reasonable that there's still a bunch of men left standing on the wall. Plus Slynt and Gilly.
A bunch? Let's say 50-60 guys who can actually still fight, manning a wall with about 99,500 more attackers on the way?

They didn't sell their lives dearly enough. Feasibly they won't be fighting per se in hand to hand; however, they don't have limitless supplies of arrows and oil barrels.

Either Jon kills Mance and the Wildings disperse, or he swings a deal for the Wildings to help them defend the Wall against the Walkers. That is my current guess.
 
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- Prediction for the show based on wiki readings -

So Aemon has a descendant of some sort (Aegon) who will marry Daenerys which will absolutely solidify their claim to the throne (is my prediction based on the Wiki readings). I believe this character was exported to safety, in secret, at the same time as Daenerys and Viserys and is the true son of Elia Martel, while the baby that was murdered was actually a stand-in from the slums.

There have been numerous instances of foreshadowing in the show (from Daenerys, Tyrion, and Aemon) that are relatively consistent with the wiki information.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Aegon_Targaryen/Theories

Also,

Either Jon kills Mance and the Wildings disperse, or he swings a deal for the Wildings to help them defend the Wall against the Walkers. That is my current guess.
I agree.
 

Redfire

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Deus ex machina

- Prediction for the show based on wiki readings -

So Aemon has a descendant of some sort (Aegon) who will marry Daenerys which will absolutely solidify their claim to the throne (is my prediction based on the Wiki readings). I believe this character was exported to safety, in secret, at the same time as Daenerys and Viserys and is the true son of Elia Martel, while the baby that was murdered was actually a stand-in from the slums.

There have been numerous instances of foreshadowing in the show (from Daenerys, Tyrion, and Aemon) that are relatively consistent with the wiki information.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Aegon_Targaryen/Theories
Even if Aegon's claim is real, how is he Aemon's descendant?

A bunch? Let's say 50-60 guys who can actually still fight, manning a wall with about 99,500 more attackers on the way?
I didn't say they had a chance. A bunch, as in "damn it, there's a bunch of ants in my kitchen".
 

Jennywocky

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Deus ex machina
\

[bimgx=500]https://dailydoubtdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/matrix_revolutions.jpg[/bimgx]


Even if Aegon's claim is real, how is he Aemon's descendant?
Aegon's heritage:
I think Aegon is Aemon's older brother. He abdicated the throne to his younger brother and entered the Watch.

Aemon is the great-grandfather of Daenyres. I guess Aegon could be called her great-granduncle?
 
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There are two Aegons if I'm not mistaken. I'll look into this later when I finish watching Poltergeist. He may not be a direct descendant and I'm not well versed in the correct terminology pertaining to matters of lineage, but at the very least they are "twice removed" unless I am totally mistaken.
 

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Aegon's heritage:
I think Aegon is Aemon's older brother. He abdicated the throne to his younger brother and entered the Watch.

Aemon is the great-grandfather of Daenyres. I guess Aegon could be called her great-granduncle?
It's the other way around. Aegon V was Dany's great-grandfather. Maester Aemon would be her great-granduncle. Rhaegar was Dany's older brother (and heir to the throne), and he had two children with Elia: Aegon and Rhaenys. The official story is that they were respectively smashed and stabbed to death.
 

Jennywocky

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There are two Aegons if I'm not mistaken. I'll look into this later when I finish watching Poltergeist. He may not be a direct descendant and I'm not well versed in the correct terminology pertaining to matters of lineage, but at the very least they are "twice removed" unless I am totally mistaken.
There's a bunch of them -- at least five of one of them. I hate the fact all their names are so similar I can't even get them straight.

Tolkien had a little of that, but not as bad as Martin here.
 

Jennywocky

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Everything of his (that I have read) was very logical and easy to follow if one only had the mental capacity to keep track of it all.
I just meant he had some dupes in his lineages....but yes, I found him much easier to follow.
 

higs

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Would it be wrong for me to post a bunch of random spoilers here since I've been reading the wiki??

Yes, it would.

:D:D


I just had to fight with myself for a minute not to open this. Foul temptress/tempter.
 
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I just had to fight with myself for a minute not to open this. Foul temptress/tempter.
Lol. I know. I've been fighting the urge too.
It's nothing short of remarkable....
:pueh:

It's the other way around. Aegon V was Dany's great-grandfather. Maester Aemon would be her great-granduncle. Rhaegar was Dany's older brother (and heir to the throne), and he had two children with Elia: Aegon and Rhaenys. The official story is that they were respectively smashed and stabbed to death.
This is helpful. In all this foggy spoiler talk and sex machina I overlooked this explanation.
 

higs

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I GAVE IN. Greatest spoiler ever jenny.
 

Jennywocky

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NooooOooOOoooo!!!! Why doth thou vexest me so?

...I must be strong. For my sweet oberyn.
 

higs

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No more, I'll go Mountain vs Oberyn on you.
 

Hadoblado

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SPOILER
Do not read if you haven't finished the current season
Congrats to CC on the poisoning prediction
 

Jennywocky

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Except now:
SPOILER
Do not read if you haven't finished the current season
Congrats to CC on the poisoning prediction
We have "Frankenmountain" coming to play. Will he have electrodes sticking out of his neck? I don't know, but it won't be pretty.
 

Redfire

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God damn it, the Tyrion bit didn't make any sense at all. I highly recommend you read this book spoiler:

Remember how Tyrion talked about his first love? The whore that Jaime hired and was later raped by Tywin's entire guard? It turns out she wasn't actually a whore, Tywin told Jaime to tell Tyrion that she was a whore.

After Jaime releases Tyrion, they have a short conversation, and Jaime confesses the truth. Tyrion gets VERY angry, they leave in very bad terms, and then he kills Shae and Tywin.

The show doesn't make any sense. Doesn't Tyrion give a fuck about his brother, who just released him? Tywin's death is in Jaime's shoulders now.

On a brighter note:

Achievement unlocked: Twincest revealed.
Achievement unlocked: Briennserker mode.

And I would've liked at least 30 more seconds of Stannis' army slashing wildlings, but that's ok.
 

Jennywocky

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God damn it, the Tyrion bit didn't make any sense at all. I highly recommend you read this book spoiler:

Remember how Tyrion talked about his first love? The whore that Jaime hired and was later raped by Tywin's entire guard? It turns out she wasn't actually a whore, Tywin told Jaime to tell Tyrion that she was a whore.

After Jaime releases Tyrion, they have a short conversation, and Jaime confesses the truth. Tyrion gets VERY angry, they leave in very bad terms, and then he kills Shae and Tywin.

The show doesn't make any sense. Doesn't Tyrion give a fuck about his brother, who just released him? Tywin's death is in Jaime's shoulders now.
I'm confused as to what you see the problem is.

They changed it from the book so that Tyrion could leave on a good note with Jaime. That much is obvious. In the book, all of Tyrion's family relationships were trashed, pretty much.

He went up to confront Tywin. I'm not sure if he planned things to end as they did, but once he got there and found you-know-who, he reached his breaking point and things unfolded. So in the show, the motivation was more (1) Tyrion was sick of putting up with Daddy's h8r attitude and (2) couldn't stand all the betrayal. I think he was painted more sympathetically in the show; in the book he seems more callous.

They also changed the scene with Tywin to revolve around You-Know-Who versus the other person you mentioned, which leads to a similar ending.


On a brighter note:

Achievement unlocked: Twincest revealed.
Achievement unlocked: Briennserker mode.

And I would've liked at least 30 more seconds of Stannis' army slashing wildlings, but that's ok.
Considering what little screen time the army had, it was pretty impressive -- I love that panning shot where they cross over the woods to the OTHER half of the army.

Pretty much all three Lannister kids gave Daddy the big middle finger.

And of course the free-for-all with Brienne and Sandor. That was nucking futz.

Go go Arya!
 

Redfire

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I'm confused as to what you see the problem is.

They changed it from the book so that Tyrion could leave on a good note with Jaime. That much is obvious. In the book, all of Tyrion's family relationships were trashed, pretty much.

He went up to confront Tywin. I'm not sure if he planned things to end as they did, but once he got there and found you-know-who, he reached his breaking point and things unfolded. So in the show, the motivation was more (1) Tyrion was sick of putting up with Daddy's h8r attitude and (2) couldn't stand all the betrayal. I think he was painted more sympathetically in the show; in the book he seems more callous.

They also changed the scene with Tywin to revolve around You-Know-Who versus the other person you mentioned, which leads to a similar ending.
You think he was just planning to get up there, yell at him and then come back down? He planned to kill him. Shae was of course an accident (the bitch had it coming though).

My points are:
1 - Tyrion wouldn't betray Jaime's trust for no good reason. As I said, killing Tywin puts all the guilt and possible consequences in Jaime's shoulders.
2 - Tyrion gains nothing by killing Tywin. If anything: he endangers himself. He would only do it if posessed by a sudden rage.
 

Jennywocky

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You think he was just planning to get up there, yell at him and then come back down? He planned to kill him. Shae was of course an accident (the bitch had it coming though).
Um, okay, I guess you've stopped using Spoiler tags now.

It wasn't clear as a viewer what was going to happen. I didn't read the scene until after. So I'm going by my perception -- it was ambiguous at first. He does choose to take additional bolts for the crossbow + the claw so he can reload, but the way the scene with Tywin plays out, it's almost like Tyrion is wrestling with things -- rationally he thinks it makes sense to kill his dad but where it leads him is to set things up so that Tywin himself utters the words that justify Tyrion pulling the trigger.

My points are:
1 - Tyrion wouldn't betray Jaime's trust for no good reason. As I said, killing Tywin puts all the guilt and possible consequences in Jaime's shoulders.
Meh. I don't think Tyrion saw it as "betraying Jaime's trust." He was planning to leave, then turns around. Tyrion in the show isn't cast as a killer. I think he's more "P" and as such he tends to come up with rational answers but kind of needs something to "push him" into doing what he thinks he should do.

I'm more curious to see how Jaime will respond. That will determine what the show meant to accomplish by Tyrion's action, if anything.

2 - Tyrion gains nothing by killing Tywin. If anything: he endangers himself. He would only do it if posessed by a sudden rage.
Um, Tyrion's a strategic thinker. He's fully capable of arising to a conclusion rationally, in terms of short-term vs future good. And what he realizes is that his father has always wanted him dead and he will always be unsafe as long as his father lives.

It's the very first thing Tyrion makes Tywin admit when he goes to see him. Tyrion has reached this conclusion but wants it confirmed. And Tywin confirms it.

Then Tyrion sets his father up to trigger his own death. If he had just wanted to kill him, he would have killed him. Instead, when Tywin calls Shae a whore, Tyrion spontaneously chooses that as the line to not be crossed: If his father calls her a whore again, he will shoot him. I'm pretty sure he knows his father will do so, so it's a safe bet, but it gives Tywin a little agency in his own demise, it provides Tyrion with some confirmation that killing dad was the right thing to do.


EDIT:

I think the wikia on this is pretty insightful, especially this aspect:

...Over the years, Tywin seemed to develop an outright joy in inflicting petty humiliations on Tyrion, such as "rewarding" him on his sixteenth nameday by putting him in charge of the privys and sewers at Casterly Rock. Yet despite all this, Tywin is blind to the true potential his son Tyrion has within him. Due to this, Tywin can't see that through his son Tyrion mirrors that of his own abilities and motives. In a way, Tyrion is Dorian Grey's mirror to Tywin: having Tywin's abilities he mirrors and deforms Tywin's ugly abysses in Tywin's eyes, his deformity symbolising Tywin's inner nightmares, his deeply hidden superstitious fear of the Gods, his carefully covered up lust and Tywin's nonexisting joy of life.
Out of all three children, ironically, I think Tyrion is the one with the intellectual gifts most like his father. Yet the circumstances of his birth and his physical shape have led his father to loathe and reject him, he projects all of his own pain and fears and self-loathing unto the child who he had the most in common with.


EDIT2: Also, I suppose we could discuss the ways in which the show changes Shae from her persona in the book to make it more allowable for Tyrion to murder her, so that we feel sympathy for him and "what he had to do." The books I think present a less sympathetic view of Tyrion. The book Shae is more calculating (her betrayal is "all business"), while the show Shae's betrayal is very personal, culminating in her become Tywin's sexual partner -- the ultimate betrayal justifying her death at Tyrion's hands. The show even has Shae drawing a knife on Tyrion first, a weapon they fight over, so it comes off as self-defense; in the book, she presents no physical threat and he just chokes her to death because he realizes she never loved him.
 

Redfire

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Um, okay, I guess you've stopped using Spoiler tags now.
Heat of the moment (sorry?)

It wasn't clear as a viewer what was going to happen. I didn't read the scene until after. So I'm going by my perception -- it was ambiguous at first. He does choose to take additional bolts for the crossbow + the claw so he can reload, but the way the scene with Tywin plays out, it's almost like Tyrion is wrestling with things -- rationally he thinks it makes sense to kill his dad but where it leads him is to set things up so that Tywin himself utters the words that justify Tyrion pulling the trigger.
But how could he turn back? If he just leaves, Tywin knows he is escaping and will prevent it. If he tries to "talk things over", Tywin will turn on him the minute he gets a chance.

Meh. I don't think Tyrion saw it as "betraying Jaime's trust." He was planning to leave, then turns around. Tyrion in the show isn't cast as a killer. I think he's more "P" and as such he tends to come up with rational answers but kind of needs something to "push him" into doing what he thinks he should do.
It's not a matter of perspective, he can't possibly just ignore the consequences on Jaime. He just doesn't care in the show, which to me doesn't make sense considering he just said farewell to Jaime in good terms.

I'm more curious to see how Jaime will respond. That will determine what the show meant to accomplish by Tyrion's action, if anything.
You mean emotionally? Otherwise there's not much he can do.

Um, Tyrion's a strategic thinker. He's fully capable of arising to a conclusion rationally, in terms of short-term vs future good. And what he realizes is that his father has always wanted him dead and he will always be unsafe as long as his father lives.
No. It's most definitely not a rational decision. His life in Westeros, as far as we know, is over. How can he come back after killing his father? (and as far as Westeros knows, his nephew and king). There's no way. It's obviously just a personal thing, not a measure of self-preservation.

It's the very first thing Tyrion makes Tywin admit when he goes to see him. Tyrion has reached this conclusion but wants it confirmed. And Tywin confirms it.

Then Tyrion sets his father up to trigger his own death. If he had just wanted to kill him, he would have killed him. Instead, when Tywin calls Shae a whore, Tyrion spontaneously chooses that as the line to not be crossed: If his father calls her a whore again, he will shoot him. I'm pretty sure he knows his father will do so, so it's a safe bet, but it gives Tywin a little agency in his own demise, it provides Tyrion with some confirmation that killing dad was the right thing to do.
Right, he is confirming Tywin not only always wanted him dead, but also sentenced him to death even though he knows he is innocent. So it's an eye for an eye.


EDIT:

I think the wikia on this is pretty insightful, especially this aspect:



Out of all three children, ironically, I think Tyrion is the one with the intellectual gifts most like his father. Yet the circumstances of his birth and his physical shape have led his father to loathe and reject him, he projects all of his own pain and fears and self-loathing unto the child who he had the most in common with.
His weakness for women and booze aside, I think Tyrion is actually smarter than his father, and far more charismatic.
It's funny how Tyrion is the one with the family name though, while Tywin's firstborn was named Jaime (which as far as I know it just a random name).

EDIT2: Also, I suppose we could discuss the ways in which the show changes Shae from her persona in the book to make it more allowable for Tyrion to murder her, so that we feel sympathy for him and "what he had to do." The books I think present a less sympathetic view of Tyrion. The book Shae is more calculating (her betrayal is "all business"), while the show Shae's betrayal is very personal, culminating in her become Tywin's sexual partner -- the ultimate betrayal justifying her death at Tyrion's hands. The show even has Shae drawing a knife on Tyrion first, a weapon they fight over, so it comes off as self-defense; in the book, she presents no physical threat and he just chokes her to death because he realizes she never loved him.
Tyrion is definitely presented as less sympathetic, but Shae was also Tywin's sexual partner in the books. I was actually quite shocked when I read it, but not because of Shae's betrayal. Tywin is many things, but I never knew he was a hypocrite (forbidding Tyrion to bring Shae into the Hand's tower, and then bringing the very same woman into the very same tower?).
 

Jennywocky

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Found this today -- GRRM's comments about this sequence. Maybe they will be helpful, I found them interesting myself... but it explains why I thought Tyrion's goal was ambiguous. The author wrote it that way.

http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/06/16/game-of-thrones-finale-martin/

ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: So when Tyrion goes up to confront his father, what is he thinking he’s going to do? Just have a conversation with him?
George R.R. Martin: I don’t think he’s thinking about it at that point. He’s at the nadir here. He’s lost everything. He’s going to be smuggled somewhere to safety, but what the hell is he gonna do there? He’s lost his position in House Lannister, he’s lost his position in court, he’s lost all of his gold — which is the one thing that’s kind of sustained him throughout his life. Whatever disadvantages he’s had in terms being a dwarf, he didn’t have the sort of physical abilities to be a knight, but he had the great advantage of an ancient and powerful name and all the gold that he could want to buy things — including followers like Bronn and other people to defend him. Now he’s lost all of that and he’s also found out that Jamie — the one blood relation that he loved unreservedly and has his back, and was always on his side — played a part in this traumatic event of his life, the ultimate betrayal. He’s so hurt that he wants to hurt other people, and it’s a moment of whim when he recognizes where he is from the account that Shae has told him and he knows that just up this ladder is a chamber that was once his that now his father has usurped from him. So he goes up to see his father. And I don’t think he knows what he’s gonna say or do when he gets up there but he — some part of him feels compelled to do it. And of course then we find Shae there, that’s an additional shock to him, an additional knife in his belly...

(etc)
I'll respond to the rest later, but I too noticed how Tyrion's name is modeled after the "family name" (Tywin, Tytos, Tybald, Tybolt, Tion, Tygett). Not that every child's name in the line was modeled that way, but a significant number were (at least 50% using the "Ty" prefix?) I don't know whether there was a point to it, or it was just meant to be ironic and model again how Tyrion was more his father's son than Jaime, etc.
 

Jennywocky

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Pretty decent list. Too bad Season 4 just ended. All that Hodoring in the finale could have laid people out but good.
 

Redfire

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I thought the Lich guy deserved comment. The books mention a former Night Watch's commander who married a girl that basically sounded like a necromancer or even an undead woman. He ruled the wall as a king. The wildlings and the Starks joined forces and took him down. I assumed they had killed him then, but maybe I missed something? Or he could be someone else entirely, why is everyone on the internet assuming it's the same guy? What did I miss?
 

Jennywocky

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Redfire, they're assuming it's the same guy because it was accidentally referred to in officially released programming material as the Night's King... I think they might have tried to retract it, but you know how rabid the fanbase is now... people grabbed it as soon as it appeared and you can't retract anything. There was another slip like that, which I won't mention here, that might reveal a surprise in the last two episodes as well. The fans jump on anything that gets released by accident, whether it's a particular casting buried in IMDB or whatever.

I have to say, not a book reader so i go into each season cold... I was kind of disappointed with this season (there's been some great stuff + some meh stuff *COUGH* SAND SNAKES *COUGH*)... and this past episode (#8) left my jaw hanging on the floor. Pretty much everything in it was good, and it just kept getting better and better and then of course that last 15 WTF minutes. Seriously, might be my favorite "overall" episode even if I really love particular scenes in some others. I've already rewatched it once or twice.
 

Redfire

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Yeah, I agree with everything. It might be the reason why no one wanted to post here before the last episode.
As for the Night's King stuff, it's quite a huge slip. The saga is called "A Song of Ice and Fire" after all. He's the ice. The fire is probably something related to the dragons.
 

Jennywocky

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I think we all just forgot about this thread. I did. I'm routinely in other GoT discussions on other forums.
 

Vion

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While I've recently begun watching the show, and, in fact, enjoy it, I'm severely bothered by it's portrayal of women. The only time any woman does anything important, it's because she gave birth to someone, or something, or because some powerful male allowed her to. It's either a connection she has, or her vagina. Women certainly have no importance by their own virtues!

It reminds me very much of a game of D&D a grog would highly enjoy. Full of rape, incest, misogyny, and there are even, yes, fart jokes. The story is good, the plot is solid, but I can't help but imagine the DM as a neck-beard who's privately getting off on it.
You fucking nailed that point down so hard. My sentiments exactly! Damn even power rangers had a deeper plot than this crap!
 

Jennywocky

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You fucking nailed that point down so hard. My sentiments exactly! Damn even power rangers had a deeper plot than this crap!
Um.... he said "the plot is solid" in what you quoted... and then you said you agreed with him that the plots were lousy and ripped on the "plot." Want to try again?

GRRM's plots actually are quite intricately put together. It's why he takes 6-8 years per book recently. I've never read any of the books, but even what has made it into the show is textured and complex enough that you can easily take all the detail and try to speculate on what might be going on behind the scenes and overall where the story might go. I think the show people are better with dramatic moments and getting rid of a lot of stuff that is tangential to the main plots, though.
 

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The ass and titties scenes have been kind of dry lately. They could definitely add more of that.
 

Jennywocky

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And the Worst Father of the Year Award goes to.... *drum roll*
 

Jennywocky

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Sadly this whole season has been kind of off. s5e8 was actually one of the best episodes of the series (just about everything in it was great IMO), but the writing of the rest has been extremely inconsistent. So you'll get a clip of something great, then something that is complete crap in the next segment. It doesn't help that the show became too popularized by the end of last season or that some of the more interesting characters were taken off the board.

Last night's episode needed better writers/director, what should have been edgy and poignant instead was at best melodramatic and weren't surprising because the writers had been telegraphing them for some time. Some of the better scenes in fact were the more low-key ones, and they still possessed some obvious inconsistencies where the writers were cutting corners. Meh.

I think the best moments in the show have been the unexpected ones (ones that Martin had mapped out in the books), because in hindsight when you examine them, they should have been expected but if you weren't really thinking through it and just taking them at face value, they were set up in ways to be misleading. There's been too much that was "on the nose" now, so to speak.
 

Redfire

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And the Worst Father of the Year Award goes to.... *drum roll*
And it doesn't even look like he's going to win. Their position was horrible to begin with, and Ramsay made it even worse. But I guess that's why he is looking for miracles.
 

Jennywocky

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Yeah, it was fairly forgettable, aside from the Tyrion dialogues, until episode 8...
 

Redfire

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Should've killed those bitches when he had the chance.

BTW, I don't remember if they mentioned it at all in the movies, but in the books Aegon Targaryen, son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Elia Martell, is still alive. Elia was older than Oberyn, and according to Dorne law women count the same as men, so Elia and her progeny come before the Sand Snakes. So Aegon would be heir to both the Iron Throne and Dorne.
 

Jennywocky

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Freaking Dorne... :evil:

Still, it beats Season 5 because they hyped the Snakes so much and yet delivered SO little payoff. Pretty much the only good part of the Dorne storyline occurred in the season finale, in a WTH moment. The Dorne women here were actually more according to hype.

----

Well, Season 6 hit the ground running at least; each one of the stories got advanced a bit, and quickly. There were some pretty decent scenes (my favorite involved Sansa), and even the lesser ones still moved along briskly and seemed good enough. (Of course, we still haven't seen Bran.)

And of course the big tease with the Red Woman.

So some of this stuff now they're basically writing themselves, off Martin's notes (or from his unpublished book). I felt like the pacing was much better.


-------------

I'm kind of confused on who is alive in the book, because I thought this wiki was describing the book, not the show:

...Elia's daughter, Princess Rhaenys, was killed by Ser Amory after breaking the door down; he dragged the screaming toddler from under her father's bed and stabbed her over fifty times.[19] Ser Gregor Clegane murdered Elia's son Aegon in front of her by smashing his head against a wall. He then raped and killed her by crushing her head.[20][5]

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Elia_Martell
 

Redfire

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I think that's the official story in the books too, but then it turned out to be a different baby or something like that, and the real Aegon got off.
 
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