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- Today, 08:56
- Sep 25, 2008
Hm yes quite.I thought they only started with, like 100 or so soldiers?
... they must have gotten themselves a Star Trek Replicator.
I counted about 20 crow deaths shown. Didn't count the wounded, but even if Aemon gets busy some of them should die. Plus, we have to assume many killed and wounded are not shown.I thought they only started with, like 100 or so soldiers?
... they must have gotten themselves a Star Trek Replicator.
"Remember, if your head leaves your neck, it's over."Hm yes quite.
I believe it was around 100.
I'm not sure how John Snow has teeth or the ability to breathe. That was an ANVIL and a VERY STRONG/VIOLENT man.
Good guys don't get hurt just beheaded.
A bunch? Let's say 50-60 guys who can actually still fight, manning a wall with about 99,500 more attackers on the way?I counted about 20 crow deaths shown. Didn't count the wounded, but even if Aemon gets busy some of them should die. Plus, we have to assume many killed and wounded are not shown.
Still, it seems reasonable that there's still a bunch of men left standing on the wall. Plus Slynt and Gilly.
I agree.Either Jon kills Mance and the Wildings disperse, or he swings a deal for the Wildings to help them defend the Wall against the Walkers. That is my current guess.
- Prediction for the show based on wiki readings -
So Aemon has a descendant of some sort (Aegon) who will marry Daenerys which will absolutely solidify their claim to the throne (is my prediction based on the Wiki readings). I believe this character was exported to safety, in secret, at the same time as Daenerys and Viserys and is the true son of Elia Martel, while the baby that was murdered was actually a stand-in from the slums.
There have been numerous instances of foreshadowing in the show (from Daenerys, Tyrion, and Aemon) that are relatively consistent with the wiki information.
I didn't say they had a chance. A bunch, as in "damn it, there's a bunch of ants in my kitchen".A bunch? Let's say 50-60 guys who can actually still fight, manning a wall with about 99,500 more attackers on the way?
Aegon's heritage:\Deus ex machina
Even if Aegon's claim is real, how is he Aemon's descendant?
I think Aegon is Aemon's older brother. He abdicated the throne to his younger brother and entered the Watch.
Aemon is the great-grandfather of Daenyres. I guess Aegon could be called her great-granduncle?
There's a bunch of them -- at least five of one of them. I hate the fact all their names are so similar I can't even get them straight.There are two Aegons if I'm not mistaken. I'll look into this later when I finish watching Poltergeist. He may not be a direct descendant and I'm not well versed in the correct terminology pertaining to matters of lineage, but at the very least they are "twice removed" unless I am totally mistaken.
I just had to fight with myself for a minute not to open this. Foul temptress/tempter.
It's nothing short of remarkable....Lol. I know. I've been fighting the urge too.
This is helpful. In all this foggy spoiler talk and sex machina I overlooked this explanation.It's the other way around. Aegon V was Dany's great-grandfather. Maester Aemon would be her great-granduncle. Rhaegar was Dany's older brother (and heir to the throne), and he had two children with Elia: Aegon and Rhaenys. The official story is that they were respectively smashed and stabbed to death.
I'm confused as to what you see the problem is.God damn it, the Tyrion bit didn't make any sense at all. I highly recommend you read this book spoiler:
Remember how Tyrion talked about his first love? The whore that Jaime hired and was later raped by Tywin's entire guard? It turns out she wasn't actually a whore, Tywin told Jaime to tell Tyrion that she was a whore.
After Jaime releases Tyrion, they have a short conversation, and Jaime confesses the truth. Tyrion gets VERY angry, they leave in very bad terms, and then he kills Shae and Tywin.
The show doesn't make any sense. Doesn't Tyrion give a fuck about his brother, who just released him? Tywin's death is in Jaime's shoulders now.
Considering what little screen time the army had, it was pretty impressive -- I love that panning shot where they cross over the woods to the OTHER half of the army.On a brighter note:
Achievement unlocked: Twincest revealed.
Achievement unlocked: Briennserker mode.
And I would've liked at least 30 more seconds of Stannis' army slashing wildlings, but that's ok.
You think he was just planning to get up there, yell at him and then come back down? He planned to kill him. Shae was of course an accident (the bitch had it coming though).I'm confused as to what you see the problem is.
They changed it from the book so that Tyrion could leave on a good note with Jaime. That much is obvious. In the book, all of Tyrion's family relationships were trashed, pretty much.
He went up to confront Tywin. I'm not sure if he planned things to end as they did, but once he got there and found you-know-who, he reached his breaking point and things unfolded. So in the show, the motivation was more (1) Tyrion was sick of putting up with Daddy's h8r attitude and (2) couldn't stand all the betrayal. I think he was painted more sympathetically in the show; in the book he seems more callous.
They also changed the scene with Tywin to revolve around You-Know-Who versus the other person you mentioned, which leads to a similar ending.
Um, okay, I guess you've stopped using Spoiler tags now.You think he was just planning to get up there, yell at him and then come back down? He planned to kill him. Shae was of course an accident (the bitch had it coming though).
Meh. I don't think Tyrion saw it as "betraying Jaime's trust." He was planning to leave, then turns around. Tyrion in the show isn't cast as a killer. I think he's more "P" and as such he tends to come up with rational answers but kind of needs something to "push him" into doing what he thinks he should do.My points are:
1 - Tyrion wouldn't betray Jaime's trust for no good reason. As I said, killing Tywin puts all the guilt and possible consequences in Jaime's shoulders.
Um, Tyrion's a strategic thinker. He's fully capable of arising to a conclusion rationally, in terms of short-term vs future good. And what he realizes is that his father has always wanted him dead and he will always be unsafe as long as his father lives.2 - Tyrion gains nothing by killing Tywin. If anything: he endangers himself. He would only do it if posessed by a sudden rage.
Out of all three children, ironically, I think Tyrion is the one with the intellectual gifts most like his father. Yet the circumstances of his birth and his physical shape have led his father to loathe and reject him, he projects all of his own pain and fears and self-loathing unto the child who he had the most in common with....Over the years, Tywin seemed to develop an outright joy in inflicting petty humiliations on Tyrion, such as "rewarding" him on his sixteenth nameday by putting him in charge of the privys and sewers at Casterly Rock. Yet despite all this, Tywin is blind to the true potential his son Tyrion has within him. Due to this, Tywin can't see that through his son Tyrion mirrors that of his own abilities and motives. In a way, Tyrion is Dorian Grey's mirror to Tywin: having Tywin's abilities he mirrors and deforms Tywin's ugly abysses in Tywin's eyes, his deformity symbolising Tywin's inner nightmares, his deeply hidden superstitious fear of the Gods, his carefully covered up lust and Tywin's nonexisting joy of life.
Heat of the moment (sorry?)Um, okay, I guess you've stopped using Spoiler tags now.
But how could he turn back? If he just leaves, Tywin knows he is escaping and will prevent it. If he tries to "talk things over", Tywin will turn on him the minute he gets a chance.It wasn't clear as a viewer what was going to happen. I didn't read the scene until after. So I'm going by my perception -- it was ambiguous at first. He does choose to take additional bolts for the crossbow + the claw so he can reload, but the way the scene with Tywin plays out, it's almost like Tyrion is wrestling with things -- rationally he thinks it makes sense to kill his dad but where it leads him is to set things up so that Tywin himself utters the words that justify Tyrion pulling the trigger.
It's not a matter of perspective, he can't possibly just ignore the consequences on Jaime. He just doesn't care in the show, which to me doesn't make sense considering he just said farewell to Jaime in good terms.Meh. I don't think Tyrion saw it as "betraying Jaime's trust." He was planning to leave, then turns around. Tyrion in the show isn't cast as a killer. I think he's more "P" and as such he tends to come up with rational answers but kind of needs something to "push him" into doing what he thinks he should do.
You mean emotionally? Otherwise there's not much he can do.I'm more curious to see how Jaime will respond. That will determine what the show meant to accomplish by Tyrion's action, if anything.
No. It's most definitely not a rational decision. His life in Westeros, as far as we know, is over. How can he come back after killing his father? (and as far as Westeros knows, his nephew and king). There's no way. It's obviously just a personal thing, not a measure of self-preservation.Um, Tyrion's a strategic thinker. He's fully capable of arising to a conclusion rationally, in terms of short-term vs future good. And what he realizes is that his father has always wanted him dead and he will always be unsafe as long as his father lives.
Right, he is confirming Tywin not only always wanted him dead, but also sentenced him to death even though he knows he is innocent. So it's an eye for an eye.It's the very first thing Tyrion makes Tywin admit when he goes to see him. Tyrion has reached this conclusion but wants it confirmed. And Tywin confirms it.
Then Tyrion sets his father up to trigger his own death. If he had just wanted to kill him, he would have killed him. Instead, when Tywin calls Shae a whore, Tyrion spontaneously chooses that as the line to not be crossed: If his father calls her a whore again, he will shoot him. I'm pretty sure he knows his father will do so, so it's a safe bet, but it gives Tywin a little agency in his own demise, it provides Tyrion with some confirmation that killing dad was the right thing to do.
His weakness for women and booze aside, I think Tyrion is actually smarter than his father, and far more charismatic.EDIT:
I think the wikia on this is pretty insightful, especially this aspect:
Out of all three children, ironically, I think Tyrion is the one with the intellectual gifts most like his father. Yet the circumstances of his birth and his physical shape have led his father to loathe and reject him, he projects all of his own pain and fears and self-loathing unto the child who he had the most in common with.
Tyrion is definitely presented as less sympathetic, but Shae was also Tywin's sexual partner in the books. I was actually quite shocked when I read it, but not because of Shae's betrayal. Tywin is many things, but I never knew he was a hypocrite (forbidding Tyrion to bring Shae into the Hand's tower, and then bringing the very same woman into the very same tower?).EDIT2: Also, I suppose we could discuss the ways in which the show changes Shae from her persona in the book to make it more allowable for Tyrion to murder her, so that we feel sympathy for him and "what he had to do." The books I think present a less sympathetic view of Tyrion. The book Shae is more calculating (her betrayal is "all business"), while the show Shae's betrayal is very personal, culminating in her become Tywin's sexual partner -- the ultimate betrayal justifying her death at Tyrion's hands. The show even has Shae drawing a knife on Tyrion first, a weapon they fight over, so it comes off as self-defense; in the book, she presents no physical threat and he just chokes her to death because he realizes she never loved him.
I'll respond to the rest later, but I too noticed how Tyrion's name is modeled after the "family name" (Tywin, Tytos, Tybald, Tybolt, Tion, Tygett). Not that every child's name in the line was modeled that way, but a significant number were (at least 50% using the "Ty" prefix?) I don't know whether there was a point to it, or it was just meant to be ironic and model again how Tyrion was more his father's son than Jaime, etc.ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: So when Tyrion goes up to confront his father, what is he thinking he’s going to do? Just have a conversation with him?
George R.R. Martin: I don’t think he’s thinking about it at that point. He’s at the nadir here. He’s lost everything. He’s going to be smuggled somewhere to safety, but what the hell is he gonna do there? He’s lost his position in House Lannister, he’s lost his position in court, he’s lost all of his gold — which is the one thing that’s kind of sustained him throughout his life. Whatever disadvantages he’s had in terms being a dwarf, he didn’t have the sort of physical abilities to be a knight, but he had the great advantage of an ancient and powerful name and all the gold that he could want to buy things — including followers like Bronn and other people to defend him. Now he’s lost all of that and he’s also found out that Jamie — the one blood relation that he loved unreservedly and has his back, and was always on his side — played a part in this traumatic event of his life, the ultimate betrayal. He’s so hurt that he wants to hurt other people, and it’s a moment of whim when he recognizes where he is from the account that Shae has told him and he knows that just up this ladder is a chamber that was once his that now his father has usurped from him. So he goes up to see his father. And I don’t think he knows what he’s gonna say or do when he gets up there but he — some part of him feels compelled to do it. And of course then we find Shae there, that’s an additional shock to him, an additional knife in his belly...
You fucking nailed that point down so hard. My sentiments exactly! Damn even power rangers had a deeper plot than this crap!While I've recently begun watching the show, and, in fact, enjoy it, I'm severely bothered by it's portrayal of women. The only time any woman does anything important, it's because she gave birth to someone, or something, or because some powerful male allowed her to. It's either a connection she has, or her vagina. Women certainly have no importance by their own virtues!
It reminds me very much of a game of D&D a grog would highly enjoy. Full of rape, incest, misogyny, and there are even, yes, fart jokes. The story is good, the plot is solid, but I can't help but imagine the DM as a neck-beard who's privately getting off on it.
Um.... he said "the plot is solid" in what you quoted... and then you said you agreed with him that the plots were lousy and ripped on the "plot." Want to try again?You fucking nailed that point down so hard. My sentiments exactly! Damn even power rangers had a deeper plot than this crap!