Forum Mafia Game #1

[Hadoblado]

It may not actually be an edit. He may have gone to the edit screen and not made changes. Don't ban he yet.

 

[Hadoblado]

hahahaha sorry but that was actually funny.

Yes he edited. But he just added on - not understanding that editing by way of post is editing, but not by using the edit function, but... by way of post. You can double post!

Please don't ban him. It was an honest mistake.

 

[Helvete]

I edited instead of posting twice yes. Oops!

 

[Hadoblado]

Helvete which earlier stance is it contrary too? Can you quote it please. If possible when pointing out contradictions, post both sides so people can easily compare and judge for themselves.

 

[Hadoblado]

QT Rook is dead, but could we please give others at least one chance each? I can't help but think the forum habits people have rightfully picked up are working against them here and likely to kill us. ATM, peops gonna be afraid to post for fear of getting modkilled :P

 

[QuickTwist]

I edited instead of posting twice yes. Oops!

Yeah, that's what I thought. I will forgive it this one last time. If it happens again by anyone else, I will have to Modkill anyone who does. (Good lord, I can just see this turning out to be a game where 2/3 of the players are modkilled, really hope that doesn't happen.)

 

[QuickTwist]

QT Rook is dead, but could we please give others at least one chance each? I can't help but think the forum habits people have rightfully picked up are working against them here and likely to kill us. ATM, peops gonna be afraid to post for fear of getting modkilled :P

I understand that. I suppose I can give everyone a warning for it, but it is conditional. If it is a simple edit to correct a spelling error or grammar, that will be their one warning. If they change anything that could be alignment indicative then unfortunately I will have to modkill them. The rule is in place so people can't go back later to edit what they said for the purpose of giving their team a better chance to win. If mafia sees they made a mistake and are able to change what they said I'm sure you can see how that would be a problem.

 

[Hadoblado]

Works for me.

 

[Nebulous]

every snowflake's different just like u

 

[Helvete]

Helvete which earlier stance is it contrary too? Can you quote it please. If possible when pointing out contradictions, post both sides so people can easily compare and judge for themselves.

These three posts.

People keep coming in being all facetious. It's fine for forum culture but all it does it shit the place up.

Here you want stuff clean and simple for transparency.

@Helvete
What kind of information am I after?

Well, I want the information made available so that I (and others) can take a player's measure.
- who has played before?
- who has read any guides?
- what do you think of me specifically?
- why do you think RB is deliberately doing the minimum allowable?

You continue the stance here, I did ask for this which is fine. Then you ask about yourself. The want for immediate feedback is interesting.

Brutal.

While it's unfortunate they're irrevocably dead, we should try to move on without paying too much attention to it. A shallow grave and all that. The odds are now against us, so if you've got any hard in you, I suggest you try it.

Here's the contradiction. Only because it's a kinda irrelevant post which the meaning and implication can easily be seen without it. It doesn't necessarily detract from the content here but it isn't an addition.

 

[Hadoblado]

Okay, fair.

My intent was to cut off people talking about the death because I assume many of you are new and easily distracted. What scum are likely to do is talk, but talk about stuff that doesn't matter. The choice for me was between letting them do that and then calling them out for it later, or preventing them from doing it.

I judged that I wouldn't be able to tell if people were deliberately going off-track, because people are inexperienced and having someone modkilled this early is kinda shocking to the uninitiated (thus easy to focus on). So my few words were meant to prevent a conversation about something that I judged wasn't likely to lead to anything useful.

I'll also point out that there's a big difference between posts that are fluff, and posts that are facetious and fluff. Humor is a good way to make your intent ambiguous. It's a game of rhetoric, and humor/glibness can be a useful way to achieve an ends, but when it's without rhyme or reason it creates noise with no upside.

 

[Hadoblado]

Vote redbaron

Nothing personal, or even that serious. It occurs to me that you could be very good at this game given your intuitive talent and social skills, but not if you're inactive. I'll unvote you so long as you are in the top 50% of players for meaningful posts. Not a high standard.

If you're town I can't let you be silent, as we're already behind. If you're scum I can't let you slip through without giving me the opportunity to catch you.

I'm off to bed. I won't be on for at least 14 hours (work).

 

[Puffy]

Hey all just got back from work to read the thread through. Hope the hyper-vigilant moderation doesn't continue as it seems really OTT that someone's dead already on our first experiment of this here.. It unbalances the game and cautions people from posting, just saying.

Vote redbaron

Nothing personal, or even that serious. It occurs to me that you could be very good at this game given your intuitive talent and social skills, but not if you're inactive. I'll unvote you so long as you are in the top 50% of players for meaningful posts. Not a high standard.

If you're town I can't let you be silent, as we're already behind. If you're scum I can't let you slip through without giving me the opportunity to catch you.

I'm off to bed. I won't be on for at least 14 hours (work).

Your reasons sound legit, so don't take this as an attack, but I'd argue that's reason to keep RB in the game for a while at least. Based on his forum posting style I think RB could have quite a strong aggressive game that would be good at tripping people up and arguing them into a wall. A lot of us are more likely to be timid players so it might balance things out well to keep RB until we have a more solid pattern of what he's playing like. Being quiet does seem more mafia like, but a lot of us are presumably new to this and might not be thinking that way.

(To answer your first question, I've played this game like 2-3 times in party environments, so not very experienced.)

 

[Sinny91]

Hey all just got back from work to read the thread through. Hope the hyper-vigilant moderation doesn't continue as it seems really OTT that someone's dead already on our first experiment of this here.. It unbalances the game and cautions people from posting, just saying.

Agreed.

Your reasons sound legit, so don't take this as an attack, but I'd argue that's reason to keep RB in the game for a while at least. Based on his forum posting style I think RB could have quite a strong aggressive game that would be good at tripping people up and arguing them into a wall.

That would only be in our best interests if he was actually a Townie, with the towns best interests at heart. That's yet to be determined. I would prefer that he be more forthright.

 

[Puffy]

Agreed.



That would only be in our best interests if he was actually a Townie, with the towns best interests at heart. That's yet to be determined. I would prefer that he be more forthright.

This is the first round and unless anyone does something really obvious we don't have consistent info to go on to make a solid guess. For that reason I think its best for town in this round to keep in the game those who we think could be of use until we have more to go on.

If more people think RB could be a detriment than less I'm happy to reconsider obviously. I just think we should at least wait to see everyone post before voting, as it encourages lurking otherwise.

 

[Cheeseumpuffs]

- who has played before?
- who has read any guides?
- what do you think of me specifically?
- why do you think RB is deliberately doing the minimum allowable?

-I've played irl before, but not on a forum, so this will be a new experience to see how the dynamic gets established.
-I briefly skimmed the link you posted in the other thread but got bored and stopped.
-I think you're trying too hard. I'm still undecided as to whether or not this effort is indicative of someone trying to lead the town through a violent incursion perpetrated by organized criminals, or an attempt by one of these criminals to make us suspicious of everyone but him so that he can lead us like lambs to the slaughter.
-Because doing any more attracts attention and attention is (I would say) dangerous to everyone, mafia and town alike. Also it's very early in the game and nothing much had happened to warrant doing any more than the minimum.

Brutal.

While it's unfortunate they're irrevocably dead, we should try to move on without paying too much attention to it. A shallow grave and all that. The odds are now against us, so if you've got any hard in you, I suggest you try it.

Odd post. I think it's been analyzed enough, though, so I'll leave it at that.

It is too early to tell where you may stand, you seem proactive, but have also been a little repetitive and this could easily be a guise. I feel as if you're trying to force a situation to go somewhere be it for good or bad intentions.

I'm having similar thoughts about Hado.

My intent was to cut off people talking about the death because I assume many of you are new and easily distracted. What scum are likely to do is talk, but talk about stuff that doesn't matter. The choice for me was between letting them do that and then calling them out for it later, or preventing them from doing it.

I judged that I wouldn't be able to tell if people were deliberately going off-track, because people are inexperienced and having someone modkilled this early is kinda shocking to the uninitiated (thus easy to focus on). So my few words were meant to prevent a conversation about something that I judged wasn't likely to lead to anything useful.

I'll also point out that there's a big difference between posts that are fluff, and posts that are facetious and fluff. Humor is a good way to make your intent ambiguous. It's a game of rhetoric, and humor/glibness can be a useful way to achieve an ends, but when it's without rhyme or reason it creates noise with no upside.

Your participation thus far comes off as if you're trying to get this over with as quick as possible, which is admirable, but it also comes off as cutthroat, which makes me uneasy. I'm having a hard time telling if your posts are actually designed to work against the mafia as you've explained, or if they're meant to make the townspeople uneasy and uncertain.

Vote redbaron

Nothing personal, or even that serious. It occurs to me that you could be very good at this game given your intuitive talent and social skills, but not if you're inactive. I'll unvote you so long as you are in the top 50% of players for meaningful posts. Not a high standard.

If you're town I can't let you be silent, as we're already behind. If you're scum I can't let you slip through without giving me the opportunity to catch you.

Wow, jumping to finger-pointing already. And for fucking bizarre reasoning as well. There are others who have contributed little as well, and some who have not posted at all, what makes RB's reticence so much more vote-worthy?

---------------------------------------

My thoughts:
Hado is obviously trying to step in to some form of leadership role. It feels like he has some kind of intention behind these actions, but I can't tell if the intention is noble or not.

His immediate jump into voting is an odd choice. The way I see it, it is possible he's jumping in and immediately clouding the waters by acting as if he's an agent of clarity and then, before the dust can settle, he tries to rush along a vote to quickly tip the balance of the game. That said, it could be a well-meaning power play in an attempt to motivate a potential townsperson to contribute.

At this juncture, I'm willing to follow Hado for the time being, as he's trying to get results, but I think a healthy dose of caution is in order.


So for this day period,
I propose we hold off any more voting until everyone has posted -- let's try to get everyone's voice heard first. THEN, I think we should make an informed group decision influenced by Hado's lead and, if that doesn't work out, we remove Hado on the next day period. (ie. if he's going to be putting heads on the chopping block, he should be prepared for his own head to be next).

Spoiler

For the sake of openness (and because apparently any inactivity is going to be seen as sign of criminal behavior) I will be keeping everyone informed of my schedule as it develops:
I will be at work for the next 5-6 hours, I may check once or twice in that period, but I don't expect to be posting.
Any further schedule developments will be reported as they occur.

 

[Sinny91]

I don't need a leader.

It's rather early for voting. Hado is obviously trying to spice things up. I'm happy to take it slow. 

 

[Sinny91]

Ugh, and these editing rules are going to be a personal challenge. 

Watch me have a stoner moment and get modkilled.

 

[QuickTwist]

Special Note:

Once someone dies, by any means, their full role and alignment is given. So anyone who dies, the players know what part they play whether they were Vanilla Townie, Cop or Mafia.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

My thoughts:
Hado is obviously trying to step in to some form of leadership role. It feels like he has some kind of intention behind these actions, but I can't tell if the intention is noble or not.

His immediate jump into voting is an odd choice. The way I see it, it is possible he's jumping in and immediately clouding the waters by acting as if he's an agent of clarity and then, before the dust can settle, he tries to rush along a vote to quickly tip the balance of the game. That said, it could be a well-meaning power play in an attempt to motivate a potential townsperson to contribute.

At this juncture, I'm willing to follow Hado for the time being, as he's trying to get results, but I think a healthy dose of caution is in order.


So for this day period,
I propose we hold off any more voting until everyone has posted -- let's try to get everyone's voice heard first. THEN, I think we should make an informed group decision influenced by Hado's lead and, if that doesn't work out, we remove Hado on the next day period. (ie. if he's going to be putting heads on the chopping block, he should be prepared for his own head to be next).

Hmm.. call Hado out then defend him. That would be a good way to appear like a townie without drawing too much attention.

 

[Cheeseumpuffs]

Hmm.. call Hado out then defend him. That would be a good way to appear like a townie without drawing too much attention.

I wasn't trying to call out OR defend him. The gist of what I was meaning is:

Hado clearly wants some form of leadership role (for possibly dubious but also possibly noble reasons). Let's give it to him, but brutally murder him if he leads us astray.

That way, if he's a mafia member, he has no incentive to dictate who we vote for because he will be killed if he makes us kill a townie.

 

[Hadoblado]

You seem to setting me up to take a fall.

A cheesescumpuffs (yes there will be puns) would love to set up such a scenario. All he need do is make sure scum isn't hanged day one. Then there's a nightkill, then he's got day two in the bag. Then there's another nightkill. Leaving day three as four town vs. three mafia (extremely unfavourable).

There's no mayor role in this game. I don't want to be mayor, I just want town to win. This means:
- fostering an atmosphere in which people post lots, forcing scum to post lots to keep up
- people being brought up to speed be that by reading guides or picking up queues from me
- making a lynch day one, preferably on someone who's scum, then on someone that gives information as to the intentions of others, then someone not so useful, in that order.

While I want people to see what I'm doing and replicate it in their own fashion, I don't want to be blindly followed. There's only a 3/11 chance I land scum first night, those aren't odds I want for the aforementioned 3 to 4 scenario. Besides, I'd have to be foolish to hope for people to blindly follow my lead whether I be town or scum. The demographic for this forum is basically black sheep who resent authority.

@Puffy
Any direction is better than no direction, statistically. Working under the assumption that we don't have enough information creates an atmosphere of timidness in which scum can hide no problem. I'd prefer that everyone accused each other and was wrong 8/11ths of the time than for nobody to accuse each other and for none of the vital interactions to happen that signal who is mafia. At least at this stage in the game, people need to pull up their sleeves and be prepared to be wrong if it means increasing their chance at winning.

I gtg to work. Seeya.

 

[Ex-User (11125)]

and exactly how do you plan on assessing whether or not he's misleading you? we're still very early in the game, there is not much room for mafia to make slips or become inconsistent so it's highly likely that the first one or two kills will be townies
anyway why are you guys jumping to get results when you have yet to establish a positive/trustworthy impression?

 

[Ex-User (11125)]

my post was directed at cheesumpuffs :P

 

[Cheeseumpuffs]

Good point. I'll just ignore all input from Hado instead.

How does the forum's block mechanic work? I've never actually used it.

 

[Cheeseumpuffs]

Ugh, that post really makes me look like a mafia member doesn't it?

What with the whole "saying things but not contributing" thing.

 

[Nebulous]

There's no mayor role in this game. I don't want to be mayor, I just want town to win. This means:
- fostering an atmosphere in which people post lots, forcing scum to post lots to keep up
- people being brought up to speed be that by reading guides or picking up queues from me
- making a lynch day one, preferably on someone who's scum, then on someone that gives information as to the intentions of others, then someone not so useful, in that order.

While I want people to see what I'm doing and replicate it in their own fashion, I don't want to be blindly followed. There's only a 3/11 chance I land scum first night, those aren't odds I want for the aforementioned 3 to 4 scenario. Besides, I'd have to be foolish to hope for people to blindly follow my lead whether I be town or scum. The demographic for this forum is basically black sheep who resent authority.

@Puffy
Any direction is better than no direction, statistically. Working under the assumption that we don't have enough information creates an atmosphere of timidness in which scum can hide no problem. I'd prefer that everyone accused each other and was wrong 8/11ths of the time than for nobody to accuse each other and for none of the vital interactions to happen that signal who is mafia. At least at this stage in the game, people need to pull up their sleeves and be prepared to be wrong if it means increasing their chance at winning.

tl;dr: every1 fite so have moar dirt on each other
I like that. The posts the more info, so Hab is trying to get more people to post. Makes sense.

I didn't understand this though:

- making a lynch day one, preferably on someone who's scum, then on someone that gives information as to the intentions of others, then someone not so useful, in that order.

Or more I wasn't able to really understand your reasoning that led to this plan/ ideal path of lynch action.

Also when do we have to vote by? The end of the day cycle, right? I don't want to vote yet; don't have enough info.

 

[Happy]

FFS Rook. Now theres one less of us townies.

[BIMG]https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/fc/45/fe/fc45fe5e715a11f9857e8d21774576dc.jpg[/BIMG]

 

[Cheeseumpuffs]

Happy are you a Mafia?

You have to answer truthfully if I ask you directly. That's part of the rules.

 

[ruminator]

If we are not gonna be making accusations yet, then I don't really know what to post. I've played this game IRL many times before. I haven't read any guides.

Just waiting for night one, so we can get some content to work with.

Cya

 

[redbaron]

Vote redbaron

Nothing personal, or even that serious. It occurs to me that you could be very good at this game given your intuitive talent and social skills, but not if you're inactive. I'll unvote you so long as you are in the top 50% of players for meaningful posts. Not a high standard.

If you're town I can't let you be silent, as we're already behind. If you're scum I can't let you slip through without giving me the opportunity to catch you.

I'm off to bed. I won't be on for at least 14 hours (work).

Whoa, hold your horses chief. The day phase is 60 hours and we're not even up to 20 yet. Game started at 9pm while I was busy, and I checked in just before going to bed.

Since there's a 75% chance that a random lynching will kill a townie. Also whether you're a townsperson or not, you've basically guaranteed that the mafia will target me on first Night, regardless of whether or not your own call to lynching is successful - since you've painted me as a huge threat to whatever side I'm not on.

A truly random and uninformed lynch makes no sense if you're a townsperson, since you're totally uninformed, meaning there's a 75% chance that your random lynching will kill a townie. In conjunction with the first Night Kill, this basically means you're taking a 1/4 blind bet that you can do something good, with a 3/4 chance of quickly turning the game very difficult for the town.

On the other hand if you were informed (mafia) then an apparently, 'random' lynching would make perfect sense. Firstly, given that the odds are stacked in favour of the townspeople near the start of the game, if you can make a targeted lynch as a mafioso not only do you quickly gain an advantage by eliminating those who would speak against you, it also serves as a precedent.

The precedent being that, "lynching is okay." By setting this precedent it essentially sets up

If you're actually a townsperson, then I suppose the information you're going off would be my own personality. Something like, 'too dangerous to be left alive'? Maybe you're willing to take that 75% chance of weakening the town, because the risk of me being a mafioso and working against the town is too great to ignore? Perhaps you're not confident that you could discover me as a mafioso because I'd be too savvy to let it slip, so you'd rather just have me ousted ASAP for good or ill, because at least then it's one less thing to occupy and cloud your thinking patterns. Makes a certain kind of sense, though a very big risk for an uninformed townsperson - since you don't know if I'm a townsperson or not, you're taking a 75% chance at removing a powerful ally, for a 25% chance at removing a powerful enemy.

The only question is: why would you rush to do something like this, as opposed to waiting for first Night? Seeing as I'm highly likely to be the first kill anyway, it would have made sense to just let the Mafia (in all likelihood) eliminate me first. Then if I wasn't eliminated, it'd be likely that I was mafia and you could then lynch me, far safer in the knowledge that I was part of the mafia.

By playing your hand so early, you basically eliminate that possibility. By making me out as a great threat, it looks doubly suspicious if the mafia don't eliminate me now - and makes me look even more like a threat. If I'm not eliminated at first night despite being such a dangerous enemy to the mafia - it would stand to reason that I must be mafia. By planting that seed you're essentially assuring a very high possibility that two townspeople will die very quickly.

That doesn't seem like the soundest strategy from someone uninformed, why would they call to start having people axed so fast? The reasoning doesn't really make sense, nor does bringing attention to my status as someone of great threat.

I suppose the fear of what I'd do as mafia might override the desire for dispassionate analysis in your head, though you don't strike me as the sort of person to do that. Or maybe I read you wrong. The idea of a random lynch just makes too little sense to me as a townsperson, so I'm not going to be voting anyone off and I'd strongly encourage the entire town to not make lynching before first Night.

Sine I'm fairly sure I'm doomed to die on first night anyway, most of this post is basically me imploring the town not to do the mafia's dirty work. If you start lynching people willy-nilly, it's likely that everyone's dead in 1 or 2 phases, with a low probability of actually catching the mafia.

In any case, I wouldn't be eliminating either myself or Hado this early if I were the mafia. I'd probably be trying to get in one of our good books since it makes the most sense that the best way to win this game would be to get the ear of the most potentially influential townspeople. The random game benefits the mafia early on, but as the game progresses it becomes more and more dicey for the mafia - random lynchings start becoming more and more dangerous for the mafia because if they do get hit it hugely decreases their chances of winning at that point. The only way to defend themselves from lynching long-term and into the late game is to try and convince people to not lynch them - either directly or indirectly.

It's bad for the mafia if they start lynching the influential townspeople early, which makes me think Hadoblado might not be mafia. Either that or he doesn't agree with my analysis and he thinks that it's better TO eliminate the potentially influential townspeople early on.

 

[redbaron]

The precedent being that, "lynching is okay." By setting this precedent it essentially sets up

Forgot to finish this sentence. It should read:

The precedent being that, "lynching is okay." By setting this precedent it essentially sets up the town to make rash decisions, which benefit the mafia at this stage of the game.

 

[redbaron]

Also worth noting that I've never played this game either at a party or on the internet, so it's possibly that I really have no idea what I'm talking about.

 

[Hadoblado]

Okay let me try and explain this. I'll note that this is typically a mafia move (explaining things to look pro-town, because guides etc. are public information and therefore even a mafia can relay their content without giving slips), but this needs explaining so that we're all clear.

If nobody is ever lynched, town can never win. Mafia get a night-kill on whoever they want each and every cycle. This means it's their game to lose unless we change that, by lynching people. So we need to be proactive and make sure lynches happen.

In us being forced to be proactive, casualties are unwanted but not unexpected. Even if town is lynched day one, the interactions that happened on the road to that lynch are then usable to hunt mafia. But only if there was actual action happening. If nobody posts, and then we RNG a lynch, that leaves us with no information with which to work, it's as if they were modkilled.

So Ruminator, waiting for someone to be lynched so we have information? That won't work. Because in the absence of posting, less information is revealed when someone is lynched. So people are placed in the odd position where being a little nasty to each other and pushing each other around is prosocial. I expect people on this forum to have difficulty with this (I know I did), because it's more important to be seen as right than to be right in this information collecting stage. Agnosticism is a sin in mafia. You need to work under the assumption that your intuition is functional, and just like in all those philosophical thought-experiments, you've got to make decisions as if you have a gun to your head, because town as a side do. Stagnation = mafia's gain.

Now don't quote me on this, but on the site I used to play on (TLmafia) town had a 50% chance of hitting mafia on their first lynch. Because it's not RNG. All the information adds up and even the cleverest scum leaves a trail which town can track. At the very least, posting now can help confirm you town, which in itself is a valuable thing to do.

TLDR: town want lots of posting, because it helps clear their name. Clearing your name allows you to have more influence later, and reduces the odds of others voting for the only person you know isn't scum (you). Town also want to lynch scum, and while they don't want to mislynch, they want to set it up so that mafia have to work to force the mislynch, forcing actions from mafia from which their identities can be inferred.

Mafia want less posting, and either a mislynch or no lynch. In the case of no lynch, it's worth one town death to them (because they get a *free* NK). In the case of a mislynch, it's worth two (an NK and the mislynch), but for the price of information.

So hunt scum, don't bandwagon mindlessly, and hopefully we're able to lynch red. But if we don't, at least we'll have a position from which to work from.

 

[Hadoblado]

Unvote redbaron

I haven't read what he said yet, but that's a long post. Thanks.

 

[Happy]

Happy are you a Mafia?

You have to answer truthfully if I ask you directly. That's part of the rules.

Yes.

And no, I don't have to answer truthfully, Dingus.

 

[redbaron]

Wait, how many mafia and how many townspeople are there?

 

[Happy]

I think it was 3 - don't have time to check, gotta dash. Although, in classic games, thats usually kept a secret...

 

[Hadoblado]

Okay I'll just go straight for the low-hanging.

Lynching people is good, statistically, for the reasons mentioned above.

Your numbers are wrong. It's not 25%, because you're not counting the fact you know that you're not mafia. I'd point the finger here, but I don't believe that kind of parapraxis is reliable enough. Yes I am being forceful, proactive, and 'loose', yes it's not like me to act first think later. But in mafia my normal means of doing things doesn't work. If I sit by and watch naturalistically while pondering away, I get wrecked. It's maladaptive.

The vote was a poke. Your initial post was a deliberate nothing, as if asking how little you can get away with. Now you've posted for real, you're engaged, I can hold you to a standard of contribution. Mission accomplished. I need you to work with me here because out of all the players playing, I know you best, and feel more able to accurately read you (I'm not saying I have deep insight into you, but, for instance, the person I've talked to the second-most would be Puffy, who can attest that our interaction has been limited).

So work with me, do stuff, and I'll try to see if your actions add up. Because I don't think you'll get NKed. I will. I want to generate enough momentum that once I'm dead, someone else can keep it going. I don't need you to sit on my dick or not have your suspicions about me. I just want you to stir the pot so I can read you and others. Show me you're not mafia and at least when day is over and I'm likely dead, all these limpers will have an idea of whether they can trust you.

 

[Happy]

I do think redbaron is Mafia.

 

[Puffy]

I've just woken up and need to rush off to work, I will come back to this when I finish (a similar time as I posted yesterday.)

 

[redbaron]

That's true. As mentioned I haven't played this game before, and I'm reluctant to read about it because as I've said before, I do think the first playing of a game should be totally intuitive and uninformed for the most enjoyable learning experience.

The things you're saying do make sense when I read them this way. It reminds me of the quote:

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

Which certainly makes an intuitive and practical sense in this scenario since, yes, whether we lynch people or not and whether or not the people wee lynch are mafia or not, it's totally assured that a townsperson will die every night cycle.

On that note:

Vote EyeSeeCold

 

[Happy]

Redbaron is right in saying that regardless of what happens, a townsperson will die. If we don't lynch anyone, this leaves more townspeople. The risk of losing another townie by lynching is too high for the lower chance of reward of lynching a mafioso. I'm going to abstain from voting to lynch in this day cycle.

 

[Hadoblado]

That quote was too apt.

Happy, why do you think redbaron is mafia?

See! See? Now something happened, and now more things are happening in response to it. Activity needs to be fostered.

I wouldn't be able to ask this question if forcing RB's hand hadn't produced a response that in turn attracted Happy's suspicion. The system works guys.

 

[Hadoblado]

Happy don't your dare.

Someone will be lynched. There are too many town that will understand why lynching is a good thing by the time night falls. The only thing that you not voting achieves is you not giving information about yourself. If you refuse to vote, you are trusting 11 people of whom you know 3 are actively working against town interest, over your own ability to read people and contribute. This is irrational if you are town. Contribute please.

 

[Happy]

Ask me again after the night cycle. I want to validate my suspicions. If I'm dead, draw your own conclusions, whatever they may be.

 

[Happy]

Alright, I'll see what I think when it comes time to vote.

 

[Hadoblado]

I really would prefer it if you acted on your suspicions now. This gives us time to get to know you.

You don't need to act on all your suspicions, but you should at least push one case within the first 48 hours.

For reference, as much as town INTPs don't like acting on too little information, scum of all shapes and sizes hate it. They already know who's town and who's scum, so they need to fabricate entire lines of reasoning. It is much more difficult for a mafia to have high participation than a town because a scummer always has to be working a meta-level above. They need to predict how people will react to lines of reasoning etc., then implement the one they think will have the most success at pushing the red agenda. For a town, they can say it how it is 95% of the time without attracting suspicion, it's easy.

By posting so much and so hastily, I'm soft-claiming town. It would be difficult for a mafia to maintain this level of activity. I promise, that if anyone meets my level of activity, I won't vote for them day one, and I will encourage other people not to vote for them either.

 

[Cheeseumpuffs]

Yes.

vote Happy

And no, I don't have to answer truthfully, Dingus.

Aw, shucks. You could've been lying! unvote Happy

Wait, how many mafia and how many townspeople are there?

After Rook's mishap we're down to 3 mafia, 1 sheriff, and 8 regulars.

----------------------------

Okay. In a rl game I would still be cautioning that we should hold off on committing a lynch until the mafia makes a move. However, rl games rely more on actual relationships and the person the mafia chooses to kill actually says more about them personally. I'm realizing now that the play on the forum is a lot more utilitarian than rl and a NK won't be as telling in this situation.

So you guys have convinced me. I'm on the lynch train now.

I think Sinny's mafia.
Zerk is also on my watchlist.

 

[redbaron]

Redbaron is right in saying that regardless of what happens, a townsperson will die. If we don't lynch anyone, this leaves more townspeople.

Well, not really. It doesn't leave more townspeople it just means that you're going to die a slow death with no chance of ever lynching a mafioso. For what it's worth I had the same point of view as you.

As I give this game a more visual feel though, I think lynching becomes the only sane option.

I visualize it as being in a room of 12 people, 3 of which are unified murderers, who know exactly which people are or aren't murderers, who will eventually murder the rest of the room 1 by 1.

The only way to prevent everyone dying, is to outnumber and murder the murderers first. The problem is, you have no idea who is or isn't a murderer - except for yourself. You know you're not one of the murderers, so at the end of the day the only moral and/or sane course of action is for you to try and make sure anyone but yourself is murdered.

It's messy work, but at least this course of action is working towards having at least some goodpeople survive. You're essentially fighting to ensure that something good comes out of this situation, as opposed to passively allowing murderers to simply murder at will, without fear of reprisal and little chance of being caught.

I know I've basically just described the game rules, but I found that until I put it into the context of a real world, moral dillemma like this did it become clear what the practical course of action would be.

It's dirty, nasty work but it has to be done if any good is to be preserved or gleaned from the situation. The only other alternative is listless submission to evil and tyranny. To not try to do what is good simply because it involves getting one's hands dirty in the process, enables those that would get their hands dirty to do evil all the freedom they need to do evil with impunity.

The risk of losing another townie by lynching is too high for the lower chance of reward of lynching a mafioso. I'm going to abstain from voting to lynch in this day cycle.

It's really just a function of time though, and there's no more risk involved in lynching than there is in waiting. It's just prolonging the inevitable, while simultaneously eliminating any chance of success at the same time. By doing nothing you're going to fail eventually, by doing something you have a chance to succeed eventually.

Also as I see it, the town is essentially in a race against time with the mafia. The longer the game goes, the more chances the mafia has of succeeding. If we wait until first NK, that means we're essentially wasting valuable time at finding out who is or isn't mafia - whereas by forcing a lynching now, we're speeding up the process, pressuring more people into slip-ups and discovering the identity of the mafia sooner.

The goal here shouldn't be to "not lynch the good guys" it should be to, "find the identity of as many mafiosos before the Night Kills start racking up".

ESC is a non-contributor, so I voted to lynch him. At worst he's a mafioso, at best he's not giving us anything to work off. As I know that I'm not a mafioso, having silent townspeople around me means that I'm more likely to be targeted - which I can't have because I know that I'm innocent and the only thing that I know is certainly of detriment to the town is if I'm the one that gets lynched. Everyone else is just a probability, I'm the only constant I can rely on.