Forum Mafia Game #1

[Reluctantly]



But why feel the need to do this? He wasn't ever the mafia's top suspect of cop.. so all that shouting and for what? what did he achieve? He lynched the towns people and didn't steer steer the lynches on to mafia.. Like I only see his role as a success if he was a bent cop.. which as a role doesn't exists in this game. As I say, wouldn't it have been safer being a cop, and a townie under the radar.

And the biggest balls up was his (attributed) arrogance in regards to Eyes. What I have a problem with is the fact that we had a cop that town couldn't trust... and in OUR game, not an imaginary super meta game.. all that meta crap served no purpose.

Yeah it really does take eyes off the mafia and onto the Townies. Is counter-intuitive to me, unless he expected to lynch a mafia. But even then, it kind of throws everything into so much confusion I don't think Town would have much chance to come together in the end. He would have been a suspect regardless and thrown off mafia reads.

Artsu was a handicap to mafia as well in ways. There was never any contribution from him in the mafia chat so I had no idea if he was playing rogue to his own strategy and would mess up anything we planned. Like in the last round if we were working together winning would've been a lot simpler. We just wait for two votes on Hado (sinny & rumi/neb were safe bets) then just spike it and win. But we couldn't do that as we knew he wouldn't help, so it made more sense to make the others aware of this strategy to deceive them on the voting patterns.

I mean...you did that anyway. And he never messed with your strategies. He was simply absent in terms of playing the game. He was literally an untouchable player that was actually a center-piece to the game. It throws off town when they expect there are three mafia players when in actuality there was only two, statistically lowering the chances of a successful lynch and making it so that it would have been impossible to get all the mafia, unless he was the last remaining one at some point. Town getting a mafia lynch also helps them have more to pinpoint other mafia as well, so it's kind of extra lame that he was gone like he was.

If I was moderating this game I think I'd be very hesitant to have replacements, just because it makes the entire posting history of that spot up until that moment in time redundant as a fresh player takes it, builds up a fresh impression, etc. I thought QT's moderation was fine.

mmmmm, but Art was never playing to begin with. He never said anything relevant, except that he doesn't feel like playing and will post just so he doesn't get modkilled...If he was a townie it wouldn't be that big a deal, but as a mafia non-participant that holds a vote, it ruins the game. if he was modkilled, there would have been another round. If he was replaced, Town might have had more to work with and a higher chance of targeting a mafia, especially given Hado's strategy.

 

[Sinny91]

I personally would have liked to have spent more time entertaining alternative possibilities, such as when Happy suggested Hado was meta playing.. I did read that.. But I felt that the pace and the mislynchs needed to come to a halt immediately, before we lost entirely through mislynches.

Hado, I read you as being the biggest risk to town... Kudos, because that means that I didn't spend much time thinking about the cop role.. But at the end of the day, you were the cop, so I inadvertently spent an awful lot of time and energy attacking the cop.

I would have also taken Happy more seriously had he contributed more, but between his only fleeting appearances, and what I just said, you and your suggestions, Happy, didn't top my priority scale.

 

[Happy]

Sinny, those were good calls IMO.

Actually when you started playing martyr, the thought crossed my mind that you were the cop and you were sacrificing yourself to expose your role, and therefore that your claims that Hado was Mafia would be true.

I was wrong about that haha. If ESC flipped red, I was ready to turn on Hado and RB after I'd finally come to trust them. Derp

 

[redbaron]

WOW Plot twist Zerkalo reveals she's a she on her 1000th post!

She said it in her intro thread...like 999 posts ago

As a spectator, from round 2 and up, even I thought you were one. I guess you're right though, had you had one mafia lynch, everyone's perception of you would have changed. WOW

I think that it's important to focus on the method being employed moreso than the results. At the end of the day the reason I sheeped with Hado was because he had perfectly good reasons for lynching Cheesums and playing as aggressively and overtly as he did as town.

On the flipside, he had no good reasons for playing so aggressively as he did if he was mafia.

So not only did I have Hado on a strong Town read early on, I had him very weakly on a mafia read. I had multiple strong reasons to think Hado was Town from Day 1, and I was having a hard time seeing how others didn't see it, hence my suspicion at people suspicious of Hado.

So I wasn't prepared to just jump on someone because they were the main instigator of a town-lynching. I jumped on Zerkalo/Puffy though because after analysing the voting patterns and the NK - I was incredibly suspicious.

Puffy's suggestion that we should start to, "analyse the NK" - when the NK was so obviously meant to be an NK that gave very little away sent alarm bells ringing through my head.

I know that next time I have strong town reads, I'll probably work to make an effort to not be suspicious of people who're suspicious of my town read: it's everyone's job to be suspicious, and I'd be better off trying to focus on building a strong case for who is or isn't mafia and why I think that - and avoid debating the finer points of people who're questioning my strong reads, because it just causes people to dig in their heels more.

RB: I really thought you were mafia. Oops.

Tbh I'm seeing now how it would look that way to someone who doesn't know me. I read through the spectator QT a few times and it dawned on me that there were a few things causing people to be skeptical of me (even though to me it seemed obvious not only that this is exactly how I'd play my first Town game, given my personality, but that I have no reason to play it this way as mafia).

I think at the end of the day, people overreacted to people disagreeing with their own reads of who is or isn't town/mafia. Since both sides thought it was, "obvious" they immediately suspected the other party as being mafia because, "how can you not see the obvious mafia connection?".

tl;dr: digging in your heels in is counter-productive in mafia, because even if there's no personal bias existent - it's going to be interpreted that way. Better off demonstrating how you're town by being productive and adding to the information pool that everyone has.

I honestly think I started off Day 2 really, really well, making a strong mafia read (based on voting patterns and inconsistencies in their posts) on 2/3 mafia and then starting to really pressure them - even getting them to start fearing me.

However I then I got lost in the finer points of town strategy and ultimately ended up discussing how town should play and how mafia should play and blahblah etc.

All that stuff is relevant to people improving as players - but it wasn't going to help us solve THIS particular game right now.

I guess the thing that burns is not that the mafia colluded to get us, but that they barely had to do anything. They basically won by default because we played ourselves :@@@@@

 

[Sinny91]

I should have figured something was up when I wasn't assassinated, in the last NK. Like the Happy comment, that fact was nagging in the back of my mind.

But again, I was more concerned with removing the troublesome Hado, who really did loose credibility for me after Eyes... Redbaron lost a lot of credibility for me on that one too, not only for his collusion with Hado, but because of his weak reasoning... which was at least contested by mine.

I should have pushed Puffy further, I knew from the start he had the potential to play inconspicuous Townie, and cool mafia. Zerk was relegated back to orange for a larger portion because of her wishy wishy voting record, but I didn't up the heat because she was backing mine.

I particularly liked the commentary going on between Puffy and Zerk which was right far more than it ever was wrong.

I think if the time scale didn't creep up on us so much, or if we were aware of it better.. we could have done other things. I quite like the idea of Hado suiciding himself with a final note.

 

[Hadoblado]

I was the second biggest risk to town. I put my chances of winning at around 30%, which was still unfavourable. This went down when I lynched Cheesiumpuffs, way up when I caught Puffy, and way, way down when I lynched ESC.

Without me taking risks, town was almost certainly doomed. I didn't need you to trust me, because if I got two I could sacrifice myself for two mafia leaving you with good odds.

If I caught three then it was an absolute win.

Ultimately, I thought that the chance that ESC was scum was higher than the chance that town won if we didn't lynch anyone or I only managed to confirm Puffy. This was the actual question. I was wrong to be so confident that ESC was scum, but even in retrospect knowing he was town, the chance of town winning with a no-lynch day two was very low. I don't think I made a mistake in forcing the lynch. It was the only option. The only way it could have gone better is if we lynched Puffy, Zerkalo, or Artsu. Puffy was what I wanted but couldn't get. There was no case for the other two.

So while I failed spectacularly and there's a lot of attention on my actions here, there was no other choice, and the alternative was failing unspectacularly with no chance of success.

 

[Hadoblado]

I quite like the idea of Hado suiciding himself with a final note.

I thought you said you weren't mad!

XD

 

[Sinny91]

there was no other choice, and the alternative was failing unspectacularly with no chance of success.

There are always choices.

I meant that an effort in convincing me that you are cop would have been interesting, I don't actually wish suicide upon you... Just to clarify. Your game play pissed me off.. But I'm gradually getting over it.

 

[Helvete]

She said it in her intro thread...like 999 posts ago



I guess the thing that burns is not that the mafia colluded to get us, but that they barely had to do anything. They basically won by default because we played ourselves :@@@@@

I see you're taking full advantage of the edit function :P

There had been some ambiguity between users about her gender and apparently too much meta in this hectic place, I'm sure things can go full circle in the space of 999 posts lol

I wouldn't play any other way as mafia and why would you? If you have all the cards and are shrouded by so much discord you can literally step back and watch the world burn. I don't think it'll be so easy for the mafia next game though as now with a little experience, we know what to look for more so than before. I would still hedge my bets on mafia winning next game, just quite as easily.

 

[Hadoblado]

There are always choices.

I meant that an effort in convincing me that you are cop would have been interesting, I don't actually wish suicide upon you... Just to clarify. Your game play pissed me off.. But I'm gradually getting over it.

Yes, but in any given game scenario, there is one choice with the highest win-rate. Us no-lynching was not that choice. Us lynching scum was that choice. At this point I would have preferred the odds of flipping three heads in a row to no-lynching and letting them NK rb for free.

 

[Sinny91]

Did this 'Buddying' gig have anything to do with your suspicion of Eyes?

Mit # 2.5--Buddying

A simple sub-section of 2, this tell is simple: Buddying is extremely anti-town. It makes you look like you're either trying to stop a lynch of a player really badly (which might be a sign of them being your partner if you're scum), or that you're trying to buddy up to a townie if you flip scum. It's a great tactic to get on a pro-town player's good side as well, by agreeing with them a great deal.
If someone buddies up to another player, they are more likely to be scum.

NOTE: Well, more accurately, buddying is anti-town. It is not a wise thing to do, period. It benefits scum more often than town; if a town player buddies to scum, it makes the town player look bad and they'll have reverse Tunnel Vision--they'll refuse to see that player as scum. If scum buddies to a townie, it makes the townie look worse and might get the townie on their side. The only time where buddying is NOT beneficial to the scum is when they buddy with other scum, which leaves both looking rather suspicious.

Buddying Redefined

As of 12/29/10, I still believe in this tell, just not quite as broadly as I used to, due to a slight thing I've noticed--I have come to a revelation: there's a difference between buddying, and "two players agreeing with each other". Like almost all my tells, it's something quite subtle. However, once again, telling the two apart will give you the difference between "probably town but might be scum" and "almost certainly scum, with a slight chance of being town".

Many times, two players simply happen to agree with each other. We've all seen this quite a number of time. At their best, these people might as well be Masons: working together, coordinating their efforts, and considering the others to be confirmed town. (They almost never are confirmed town; they just have that strong of a read on each other.)I'm not quite sure how to describe it; it's something you simply have to see for yourself in order to believe it. But basically, they mutually agree the other is town, and work with them. Unlike what I said before, this alliance, this might-as-well-be-masons, almost always is extremely pro-town, because it is that solid, and it traps scum more often than not.

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Mastin's_Insane_Tells

It's the latter I was aiming for with Eyes

And you fell foul of my Lynch All Liars

Generally, gambits are not successful. If they were, they would probably be on this wiki or otherwise public knowledge. Thus, rather than wind up on the receiving end of Lynch All Liars, it is best not to try to gambit unless you fully understand the implications of your actions. This comes primarily with experience.

Lynch All Liars is also why scum should not wantonly gamble with the Town's patience as well

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Lynch_All_Liars

While there is some merit to attempting to look tactically scummy for the sake of avoiding night-kills, it's actually much worse if you wind up looking scummy enough to be forced to claim or get lynched, as your posts during the Day will be beneath consideration whereas if you are night-killed your posts can be considered like any other upstanding Townie's.

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=A_Beginner's_Guide_to_Being_Awesome_At_Mafia

 

[Hadoblado]

Yeah. It was more him buddying you than you buddying him. I was suspicious of him, and I was waiting for someone to try to cultivate your stance against me. And then he did just that. I'm not saying you were wrong to buddy or whatever, just that, within this context, it just happened to send me in the wrong direction.

Which lies are you specifically talking about? My looking scummy would have worked if I'd read ESC correctly. I didn't, so it didn't turn out. I knew I was taking big risks, but I was taking them because risks needed to be taken.

 

[Sinny91]

Yeah. It was more him buddying you than you buddying him. I was suspicious of him, and I was waiting for someone to try to cultivate your stance against me. And then he did just that. I'm not saying you were wrong to buddy or whatever, just that, within this context, it just happened to send me in the wrong direction.

Which lies are you specifically talking about? My looking scummy would have worked if I'd read ESC correctly. I didn't, so it didn't turn out. I knew I was taking big risks, but I was taking them because risks needed to be taken.

Just various inconsistencies which I personally can't be bothered to blog right now.

You were talking so much, you contradicted yourself a few times.

Which made you fall under 'Liar' for me.

For a short while I thought your mafia game was to obvious to be mafia, but failing to see the benefit of such play (to Town), I went with occams... which was obviously at odds with your meta.

I've had time to actually get to know some the game now, so I'm becoming familiar with some of the concepts. Was literally blind going into that game, as most of us were.

You posted so much crap, I honestly have no idea why you suspected Eyes apart from the fact he was agreeing with me. I heard Barons arguments, I didn't think they held any decent substance.. As I highlighted, his reasoning could all of applied to me (Townie), so I knew his logic wasn't proof.

You genuinely scummed up so much, you were beyond trust, and in general, I would never expect a cop to come in and try to lead town. Aid them yes, lead them no.

Not only that, but your scum level went as far as to ignore a couple of serious questions I threw your way one of which was : Are you trying to get lynched? Because you are going the right way about it.

Shared nearly all my thoughts now.

I don't get why Baron played the way he did. I'm going to review what he's said since.

 

[redbaron]

You genuinely scummed up so much, you were beyond trust, and in general, I would never expect a cop to come in and try to lead town. Aid them yes, lead them no.

It depends on the circumstances and the nature of whatever game is being played.

In a town where no one else will play leader he doesn't have much choice. A cop needs people to interact, so that he can make his own soft reads, which determine what to use his night reads on.

If no one is interacting, the cop is as blind as anyone else and could end up wasting his important night actions on bad reads. Pretty much the only thing I found questionable about Hado was that he was willing to relinquish his Puffy read and let us target someone else.

But then his hand was forced by the fact that his options were basically no-lynch or lynch someone he suspects as mafia. I also mentioned that if this divide during Day 2 consisted of at the very least 2 townies, it'd be outright impossible to lynch a mafia on Day 2 anyway since we had 7 mafia and needed 2 votes.

 

[Sinny91]

It depends on the circumstances and the nature of whatever game is being played.

In a town where no one else will play leader he doesn't have much choice. A cop needs people to interact, so that he can make his own soft reads, which determine what to use his night reads on.

If no one is interacting, the cop is as blind as anyone else and could end up wasting his important night actions on bad reads. Pretty much the only thing I found questionable about Hado was that he was willing to relinquish his Puffy read and let us target someone else.

But then his hand was forced by the fact that his options were basically no-lynch or lynch someone he suspects as mafia. I also mentioned that if this divide during Day 2 consisted of at the very least 2 townies, it'd be outright impossible to lynch a mafia on Day 2 anyway since we had 7 mafia and needed 2 votes.

Heard. But I still think he could have waited before making all the executive decisions. I was sleeping when he decided to take control, and a few people arrived late to the party.. But by that time he was well into his meta plan...

But all in all, I think the first game has been greatly educational. Which is the point I suppose... and his drunk posts did entertain me for a while. I'll deffo be playing sobre in future.

 

[Sinny91]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzUCbCIFhPo

 

[Sinny91]

I might make a poll about this, but just asking now, how would you rate my ability to Mod a game like this again? 1-10 where 1 is that I should never do it again and 10 being I should do it at every opportunity.

Erm, 7.

Rules, guide's, layout and organisation could have been a bit better. I found myself discovering rules as we went a long and not from the onset.

But pretty good over-all, you have done the forum a great service.

 

[Puffy]

I guess the thing that burns is not that the mafia colluded to get us, but that they barely had to do anything. They basically won by default because we played ourselves :@@@@@

I think for a first game like this its basically a learning experience all round. I also agree with what Hado said that in a first game its more likely for the mafia to win than otherwise, with the chances decreased by other particular factors of this game.

In my eyes my first round was pretty bad, and I gradually did smarter things and started reading the game better as I went on. Still loads of mistakes though. In some ways, knowing I'd been caught and was going to likely die helped as it became more clear to me how I needed to play from there, where before I didn't know what I was doing and was winging it poorly.

 

[Jennywocky]

^ yes, huge learning experience, even just observing.

Some things were really well-done, others not as well, and there were a few major gaffs. But I noted it was ironic because things that would have been nailed on the hardcore mafia sites (i.e, blatant "tells") were things completely overlooked here or came off as confusing because people just don't have much experience yet with actual gameplay. We will get better.

(And you guys are a game ahead of me, since I didn't play first round.)

It was still a lot of fun even just to watch, and some great things were done.

 

[Hadoblado]

Are you trying to get lynched? Because you are going the right way about it.

But now in hindsight you can see why I didn't want to answer that question right? Because if I answered at all truthfully or gave any reasoning, I was giving away my plan. Also, it wasn't a question that is alignment indicative. A scum would say no, a town would say no (unless they were one of the what? Four martyrs? XD).

A vanilla town hado would have ignored that question. A scum hado would have ignored that question. A cop hado did ignore that question. It not only would have hurt me, but it would have taken emphasis of more important things.

Heard. But I still think he could have waited before making all the executive decisions. I was sleeping when he decided to take control, and a few people arrived late to the party.. But by that time he was well into his meta plan...

There was no point in waiting for you because you were never going to vote with me, though I was the one that pissed you off, from that point forward you were just an obstacle to me. I made the bed and I lay in it, but my best bet of getting things the way I needed them to be was to avoid you or disempower you. I wouldn't normally push a coup lynch like that, but I needed a lynch at any cost. My initial try was on Puffy because he was 100% red, and he had given me the opportunity to circumvent the town's inaction by leaving a vote on himself. Since ESC had also given me the same opportunity, even though he wasn't 100% red, he needed to go down.

Re: learning
Win or lose, the first game is a fantastic learning experience. I honestly want to implement it in an educational setting. Changed my life.

 

[QuickTwist]

Re: learning
Win or lose, the first game is a fantastic learning experience. I honestly want to implement it in an educational setting. Changed my life.

Yeah, I said this in the spectators/dead thread, but this game is not easy. Its not something you can just figure out after a game or two, this game is not like a rubix cube where there is a clear cut way to do things. Its a kind of problem solving that is on a totally different level than just deduction because there are so many variables involved.

IDK if you are talking about this being your first game here or your first game elsewhere, but I can totally see how this game can really challenge you to look at things a little differently. Its a great game and I'm really glad that it was so well received here.

 

[Hadoblado]

All things considered I think your decision to introduce it and make it happen was a very good one. I think someone said in the QT that this is the most interesting thing to ever happen on the forum?

Feel good.

 

[Sinny91]

But now in hindsight you can see why I didn't want to answer that question right? Because if I answered at all truthfully or gave any reasoning, I was giving away my plan. Also, it wasn't a question that is alignment indicative. A scum would say no, a town would say no (unless they were one of the what? Four martyrs? XD).

A vanilla town hado would have ignored that question. A scum hado would have ignored that question. A cop hado did ignore that question. It not only would have hurt me, but it would have taken emphasis of more important things.

But it's at that point you should of realised that your Meta had backfired, and you should of had a contingency plan. IMO.

There was no point in waiting for you because you were never going to vote with me,

See, if that was your attitude from the onset, then you had already plotted our future.

though I was the one that pissed you off, from that point forward you were just an obstacle to me.

Again, you initialised EVERYTHING.

I made the bed and I lay in it

That you did.

but my best bet of getting things the way I needed them to be was to avoid you or disempower you.

I wouldn't normally push a coup lynch like that, but I needed a lynch at any cost. My initial try was on Puffy because he was 100% red, and he had given me the opportunity to circumvent the town's inaction by leaving a vote on himself. Since ESC had also given me the same opportunity, even though he wasn't 100% red, he needed to go down.

Re: learning
Win or lose, the first game is a fantastic learning experience. I honestly want to implement it in an educational setting. Changed my life.

By disempowering me, you disempowered Town.

 

[Sinny91]

I've got to say, the Mafia team were fucking slow at spotting the cop.

They had the advantage of knowing Hado wasn't mafia.. and all the cop breadcrumbs are right there to see.

The first comment in real time game play that peaked my interest from Hado was "Sinny, I want to clear you but I need more info"

I didn't suspect you as cop because you were so obviously trying to be the cop.. So that added to my reasons to put you in as scum.

If I was Mafia, I would have zoned in on you immediately.

***

By the way Hado, Your QT comments and your comments here don't match about who was buddying who between me and Eyes.

Stop lying, and stop being so arrogant in regards to what you think you know about me.

Goddamit Sinny I hope that when this game is over you reconsider your approach to understanding the world. Actually what I hope is that you're scum because I'll be fucking impressed, and I'll have to adjust my worldview. But assuming you're not, this whole game stands as a demonstration to how you systematically reinforce your own beliefs to the exclusion of viable alternatives. That's the thing see? Once this game is done there won't be any ambiguity. You won't be able to respectfully disagree. You will have just been wrong. And if you trace the pattern of your reasoning and behaviour in this game, you will see why you can also be wrong IRL, while being as confident as you are now. I've been banking on your current position against me and RB this entire game, that's predictive validity. You then systematically serve as the hand of ESC, just as I knew you would fall to the red agenda. You're being used. And you won't have a way out of accepting that by the time you read this post. And if it can happen here, it can happen IRL with belief systems.

I intuitively interpret the world, and Eyes intuitively connected with me. 

It's a wave length bro, and you aint on it.

For what it's worth, I don't even actually read you as town anymore. I'm not bothering to look back through filters etc. to fix my view because until I'm done with Puffy and ESC, you don't command enough power to do anything meaningful if you do happen to be scum.

I commanded the power to lead your lynch.

how can she misinterpret everything so consistently? fuckfuckfuck.

How can you?

These players will include Artsu, Sinny, Ruminator... Who aren't necessarily the town but none have shown ability to read people so town's power level will almost certainly be diluted. Mmmm...

Ha, and this is after I read Eyes.

Talk me again about those.. Belief systems.

 

[Puffy]

We had it as a possibility. But speaking for myself I was thinking the cop is the town's most valuable role and that the person who played it would be playing to stay in the game. Happy fit what I expected the cop to do perfectly so I kind of cop tunnelled him. Hado was playing such a risky strategy, signalling himself as the strongest and most intimidating player to NK, that I fell for his gambit and didn't think it likely it was him.

 

[Jennywocky]

I'll laugh if the arguments about who played worse than who in the game last longer than the game did.

 

[Cheeseumpuffs]

I'll laugh if the arguments about who played worse than who in the game last longer than the game did.

Seriously, I'm totally ready to move on to the next game.

Can we just all accept that everyone made mistakes and keep it moving?

 

[Sinny91]

Yea, sorry.. was just going over all the lessons to be learned from this game.

I'm actually done now.

 

[Reluctantly]

All things considered I think your decision to introduce it and make it happen was a very good one. I think someone said in the QT that this is the most interesting thing to ever happen on the forum?

Feel good.

Oh yeah, heh. I think that was me. This was pretty interesting follow and think about. It was like a murder mystery or a forum version of death note. I actually got antsy when mafia was preparing to NK and no one was posting lol.

 

[QuickTwist]

Guys, guess what? I actually won an award for my last completed game on SC2Mafia!!! I replaced very lated into the game. There was I think over 4000 posts for that game! My team won so I was awarded and award! There was really only one place where I was close to death, but I pulled a Doc claim out of my ass and that was enough for people to look elsewhere. Also, My teammate got the MVP for the game.

 

[redbaron]

I'll laugh if the arguments about who played worse than who in the game last longer than the game did.

It'd be fitting for INTPforum I think.

 

[Hadoblado]

Me being wrong doesn't make you right.

I don't care if I played poorly, I care about improving. I know what mistake I made, I'm going to go and hammer DP about what tipped him off to ESC's greenhood.

What mistakes did you make? How do you intend on improving?

 

[redbaron]

Me being wrong doesn't make you right.

I don't care if I played poorly, I care about improving. I know what mistake I made, I'm going to go and hammer DP about what tipped him off to ESC's greenhood.

What mistakes did you make? How do you intend on improving?

You're trying to explain long-term thinking concepts to an ESXP

 

[Hadoblado]

Please no ad-homs.

 

[redbaron]

Mr. Elephant was meant to indicate prevalence of jolly banter.

 

[Artsu Tharaz]

*bicker bicker bicker bicker*

Artsu: *walks into the centre of town*
Artsu: *puts down flag*
flag: "ARTSU TERRITORY"
Artsu: *leaves*