There's a chance cheese is lying and if so that's a massive dick move because town will still win, so we just lynch Pmj because it's more likely he's the one who fake-claimed.
It's nearly always better to lynch the original claim when there's a counter-claim. Hey Yellow if we get the entire town voting Pmj can we just call it a win?
Or Pmj can just concede victory. Saves us 47 hours.
^That'd be a modPmj move to pull. Yellow might've done it, but she was pretty clear in the way she worded it to me and we've been given no indication this is an unusual game set-up.
Paranoia is always a risk when you play. But the correct move is still to lynch Pmj. Today. Yay!
Yeh the correct move is to lynch Pmj and then cheese no matter what happens. Town will still be in the game even if they're both town and everyone here will have learned why you don't fake-claim as town.
^That'd be a modPmj move to pull. Yellow might've done it, but she was pretty clear in the way she worded it to me and we've been given no indication this is an unusual game set-up.
Paranoia is always a risk when you play. But the correct move is still to lynch Pmj. Today. Yay!
If someone used a protective ability on someone, you need to claim - that's the only way we can verify that the reason for no NK wasn't because of Pmj roleblock
If you're a doctor (not THE doctor) and you protected someone, say who.
Possibilities & requirements if neither PMJ and Cheese are nonscum:
Either A/B/C of each number need be true.
Assuming no advanced trick-roles like a fake doctor that is told he is doctor but actually is not.
1A: PMJ is townie with non-doctor role.
1B: PMJ is a townie that lied about having a non-doctor role.
2: Remaining Dalek predicted this and that the real doctor would roleblock his/her prime suspect, and decided not to kill.
3: The text from Yellow indicating there was an attempt to kill that failed was not really supposed to mean what it looks like it means.
Other possibilities: In the case of a role like Rose Tyler, there might be passive abilities in play, like for instance not being killable so long as The Doctor is alive, which may very well look like a roleblock was what resulted in the kill being foiled.
In any case, these possibilities seem pretty remote, but I would like to describe them anyway in case I die.
Since the likelihood of him being lynched today is so extremely high, then if PMJ is Dalek he might as well concede unless he has something to say that would probably have to be the most convincing piece of text ever uttered on INTPf.
If he thinks not conceding when he might as well do so as Dalek because he's going to get voted out anyway might make people believe he isn't Dalek... tough luck, because that's doing the optimal PMJ Dalek play at this point, and we know this, so... there's no way out. Rest in PMJ.
I was joking about Rose btw. I didn't even consider that a real thing. I don't think there are any other abilities because this is what I was told. No other abilities unless I grant them. I assume me granting them would be what creates a "Rose".
Latte's 1A and 1B are basically impossible if I'm Dr. In the midst of explaining this.
Wow, I didn't even read into Yellow's post that there was an attempted kill. I just assumed the expectation set up was Town's expectation that someone would die, and it was subverted in us the way it was subverted in text. Gonna reread that.
What if this were a problem of semantics? Because it is. I couldn't believe it when everyone lost their shit and thought I'd 'soft claimed'. Merely, I was stating a fact: lynching me would be bad for town. "Read in to that what you will" was not intended to be the point at which people lost their minds and assumed I was the doctor.
It was going to be my first action today to burst into the thread and tell the 'real' doctor to keep in the background. By the looks of things, that is no longer necessary.
As for the lack of an NK, can an NK even be roleblocked? Truth be told I assumed that I'd been protected... but now Cheese is coming forward as the real doctor and telling us that I was roleblocked? Does not compute.
Either Cheese is lying (hard to believe: I doubt anyone could fake that enthusiasm ) OR there are other shenanigans at play here. Whatever the case, if Cheese really is the doctor and he really did waste a role block on me, he at least still has the ability to (one would assume) protect himself tonight. So, another day earned.
Sorry, chaps and chapettes. You're barking up the wrong tree with me.
For now, my vote goes on John. He hasn't been around much, other than to take to RB's orders. I'd like to see a great deal more.
I'll assume that Cheese is the doctor for now.
RB I'm actually less suspicious of. I had a chance to re-read some of his points and look at how he's positioned himself. I concede that I was probably wrong with my read on him.
Rook and Latte strike me as reasoned and intelligent players, and therefore dangerous. They're also somewhat in the background. I wonder if the last darlek could be one of those.
When you're running from a lion, you only have to be fast enough to not be the slowest. Scum do this a lot.
Ask yourself, what has Happy even done? He's done nothing. This is scumgame. Even John has more reads and content than Happy. If you want to vote for lack of content, vote Happy not John.
Not only that, he had me as his top scumread but when I asked him to provide reads he doesn't even remotely resist. That's a very cooperative stance to take on your top scumread.
You think I'd have made a readslist for you or Helvete if you asked yesterday? Puh-lease.
Happy's defence is shit too. "I've done nothing town, but nothing scum either!!!"
That's about as big of a scumclaim as you can get. The only reason I'm voting you is because it looks like you fake-claimed. With plauaible deniability sure, but that's scummier than just claiming. Scum fake-claim ambiguously so they can wifom people who call them out for it, that's what you're now doing.
I don't let people defend themselves with meta or semantics because it's impossible to accurately decode for any observer. People need to give solid explanations for why their actions make sense in THIS game or they can die.
Why? Because town players generally do things for reasons. They say or try things for reasons. They don't try to play to their "meta" to look more town - that's what scum does. So if someone defends themselves with, "hey, you know me!" or, "semantics" sorry but you have to do better than that.
Maybe you're just town who didn't realise it's really bad to make statements that can be interpreted as a PR claim when you aren't even PR. Or you're just scum. That's not something town can reasonably decipher, it's always in doubt and there's a good chance that you really are just scum.
So I'm happy with this vote, and I'll use this day to find any other possible scum. If we have a real doctor, counter-claim Cheese so we can win.
Fair points. More coherent and reasoned that your day one straw-clutching, certainly. Seriously - your arguments were so fucking weak on day one. But, this (^) I can get behind.
No lynch other than Pmj's makes sense today. Flipping Pmj gives everyone the most information.
RB, the only fact Town knows is that there was no NK. I'm claiming to have roleblocked Pmj, but that's not 100% certain to anyone but me and Yellow (and Pmj, from my POV, but you guys don't have to believe that).
More exhausting reasoning:
I've CC'd Pmj's claim, and as far as we know there is only 1 scum left. CCing as sole scum with this many town left is absolutely retarded and guarantees scum loses. I hope this is clear. The only scenario in which scumcheese would CC is if Daleks have conversion abilities. This would only be a once-per-game thing or the game breaks. Even converting once is huge.
The most likely scenario is that I'm the Dr. The second and much less likely scenario is that Daleks had the undisclosed ability to convert people and I'm one of the 2 remaining, and CC'ing the DocPmj to trade my life for his. The third and totally possible scenario is that I've misunderstood Yellow, but I've reread what she said multiple times.
From my POV as Dr, there is absolutely only 1 scum left because there's no possibility of Dalek conversion. I was told there are no other special abilities unless I grant them (which I didn't). Pmj isn't idiotTown for reasons I'll explain later in this post.
Lynch Pmj today, and if he flips town we've lost our stainless victory anyway, and the next UNARGUABLE move is to lynch me.
The rest of you are voting from a position of ignorance, so I'll break it down from your POV: Banking on me being Dr
Reasonable given the current situation, game setup and all the other reasons given by RB or myself, and nets you the advantage of a total Town win.
If I'm lyingscum:
There's 1scum left because of conversion (again, only situation in which scum CC'ing is reasonable), and you can throw out what I said about there being no other PRs. Lynching Pmj you might not even be lynching the Dr. Even if he is, you're nowhere near losing. If I tricked you, you lynch bluePmj today, tonight scum NKs 1 town, tomorrow we land at 6v2 and by end of day 5v1 after you lynch scumcheese. I think everyone can assume that even if Yellow did grant Daleks conversion powers, they wouldn't be running endlessly throughout the game - that's just way too powerful and Yellow has stated that she attempted to balance the game, so you can assume no more conversion (RB thinks even one conversion is too powerful). So the game would be at 4v1 after Night 2's NK, not-even-definitely with no Dr. This is your worst-case scenario by betting on my claim.
Best-case scenario is that we win as a whole Town.
Middle-case, I'm an idiot and misread/misreasoned something.
Banking on Pmj being PR:
Goes against reasonable gameplay, assumes an unlikely conversion ability (only scenario in which a sane, previously-solo-scum would CC), and loses the chance at stainless victory.
If Pmj's telling the truth:
Net advantage is you catch scumcheese today, he might be able to prevent another NK tonight/gain more info, and Day 3 ends at 7v1 with 1 confirmed town. More likely someone does die or the Dr uses up his ability (OP states the Dr is similar to a Jack-of-all-trades - a role which has several abilities but all of them are 1-shot, ie can only be used once) protecting himself and is unable to gain info.
The disadvantage to Town trusting him is that ffs people, he's scum.
Let me go over one more time why he's not idiotTownPmj either:
Assuming I *am* the Doctor:
Day 1 idiotTownPmj fakeclaims to try to save himself. The fact that it's fake is known only to the actual PR, *not* to mafia. Without a CC Day 1, scum's correct move Night 1 is to NK the person who's claimed Dr, not to hope they've fakeclaimed and a Day 2 CC casts them under suspicion. But Day 2 arrives and no one has died, after I've roleblocked Pmj. Is this because scum magically knew Pmj was fakeclaiming and today would come under suspicion when the real Dr CCs? Remember, if I'm Dr there are *no other abilities* (unless Yellow misled/idiotcheese) - the Dalek can't have used up their night action converting a Townie, so that can't be the reason no one's dead. The reason no one's dead despite the best move being for scum to NK the claimant is that the claimant is scum and I roleblocked them.
Assuming I'm lying and *am* scum:
Scum used their night action converting a Townie, which is why no one's dead and why scumcheese CC'd in hopes of getting a Pmj lynch, leaving one scum left after scumcheese is counter-lynched next day.
But if cheese isn't the actual Dr, and idiotTownPmj was faking, then the actual Dr should CC. But they haven't. We can wait till the end of day and if no one CCs me we should lynch Pmj. We should do this regardless, but if there's no CC, there's no argument.
There's a slight possibility in this scenario that there will be no 3rd-party CC despite PRPmj, because if I'm lying, you as Town have no idea how many other blue roles there are. If scumcheese and idiotTownPmj are true, the actual blue role might not have been given any definite information regarding the presence of other blue roles and therefore mightn't see a need to CC. Weigh this - the likelihood of a blue role thinking there might be other blue roles in a 9-player game with only 2 mafia - as you wish.
Btw if someone else does CC, you can assume either a dickhead attempting to ruin the game for everyone else or Dalek conversion abilities.
Summary, assuming I'm not an idiot:
Pmj being idiot-town is only feasible in a setup where the last remaining Dalek converted last night (thus wasting their night action).
DrCheese rules out idiotTownPmj because "no other PRs [Dalek]".
DrCheese rules out PRPmj because "no other PRs [Town]".
DrCheese confirms finalscumPmj because no other reason for fakeclaim.
Both IdiotTownPmj *and* PRPmj rule out DrCheese and confirm (highly unlikely) conversion scenario, which is still highly winnable
Lynching Pmj either kills all scum and is SUPER COOL or leaves you at 4v1, worst-case.
Lynching cheese either leaves you at 7v1 or ruins your chance at total town victory.
scumPmj has a much stronger case than conversionDalekCheese
IdiotCheese likelihood is up to you
Bottom line: If no 3rd party CCs me, lynching Pmj is the best move. At that point there's no chance of him being idiotTown, so we've either definitely caught the final scum or we move to scumcheese scenario that worst-case ends in 4v1 on Day 3.
If a 3rd party DOES CC... I have no idea what the fuck is going on.
Oh hey, looks like Pmj's just weighed in with the "it was just semantics and I was never really claiming guys!" argument. I was just about to add this into my main post in case he thought of using it, but have decided to post it separately.
Here's why his arguments don't work:
1st defence: Semantics
Go back and read his paragraph. He specifically mentioned role-claiming and how he's not a fan of it.
PmjPmj said:
It would be bad for town if I were lynched tonight. Again, ‘those of you’ who have played alongside me before know my feelings about role-sharing. Read into that what you will.
This is a soft role-claim. He at least wanted to put the idea in our heads that he was a PR. This put the real PR in danger, because it forces them to come out and fake-claim - I've explained this in a previous post.
cheese said:
there's the tiniest possibility a confused Townie wanting to save their skin would fakeclaim, reassuring themselves that it's sort of protecting the real Dr in a way by drawing fire to themselves.
However, Pmj isn't a noob. He should know that fakeclaims force PRs to CC, which puts them at risk and more importantly puts Town at risk of losing valuable information.
I'll lay it out here:
Fakeclaim --> Real PR doesn't CC --> Real PR loses chance to warn town of possible scum --> Real PR loses chance to give info their power has revealed
If a Townie wanted to fake-claim and thought about it for just a sec, they'd see that fakeclaiming forces PRs out of hiding and puts them at risk of an NK.
It's not something you do to "save a Townie" when you're risking someone with the ability to provide more much-needed information and/or protection to Town. Trading your life for theirs is a terrible play for your team - unless you're scum.
The correct thing to do for a Townie in danger of being lynched is to defend themselves, do as many reads/cases as possible, and die if necessary so their green flip authenticates the honesty (not accuracy) of their reads. It is *not* bad for Town for one Townie to die Day 1. It *is* bad for Town to endanger your PR Day 1, and he soft-claimed with plenty of time before EoD - plenty of time for the actual PR to reveal themselves to the scumteam.
If by some miracle Pmj IS Town, he should still be lynched as he's a danger. Don't twist my words: I don't mean lynching him if we knew for sure he was Town would make sense. I mean lynching him right now is worth that tiny element of uncertainty/tiny possibility he's Town, because of the much greater weight of evidence *he's given us* pointing at him being scum.
So we've established he wanted everyone to at least kinda think he was a PR. First defense - semantics - is BS.
2nd conceivable defence: A Townie might fakeclaim and live through the night
I've already explained the reasons this doesn't work: no one died, Dalek wouldn't target anyone else anyway, I roleblocked Pmj. The only way Day 2 as we see it now could've come about with TownPmj is if the Daleks converted another Townie instead of killing Pmj, the blue claimant. However, that would invariably make me a liar, because no one else in this game has PRs, unless I'm lying.
I can't both be the Dr AND be wrong about Pmj. Being wrong about Pmj as Dr necessitates that the Dalek last night converted someone else (or some other night action), because
a) The Dalek wouldn't have wasted a night action,
b) No one died,
c) I roleblocked Pmj
So the only way I'm wrong about Pmj is if my roleblock was a dud and the Dalek therefore did something else.
But Dalek doing anything else is impossible with me as Dr because my claim as Dr is intertwined with my claim that I know there are no other abilities in this game.
Dalek doing nothing at all is ridiculous and not worth considering, for reasons I've already gone over:
Solo Dalek needs to kill PR asap
Dalek has no way of knowing who the actual PR is/knowing if someone is fakeclaiming. Thinking TownPmj might be lying and risking not killing him just to cast confusion on him hoping a CC will show up and kill him is insane, because you waste a night action and risk being investigated/outed the next day.
3rd defence: Maybe roleblocks don't prevent NKs!
I thought of this possibility before confirming my night action and specifically checked with Yellow. Her exact words:
Yellow said:
Yes. It will stop it from performing a night kill.
Rook and Latte strike me as reasoned and intelligent players, and therefore dangerous. They're also somewhat in the background. I wonder if the last darlek could be one of those.
[/QUOTE]
No idea what your goal is here, me and latte were first on Helvete and we stayed there.
Not optimal for scum to vote/wagon scum and keep their votes there throughout the day, setting up exactly the situation under which Helvete was lynched.
If me and Latte switched our votes to Pmj as rb urged so desperately, D1 may very well have been an rb lynch.
Until someone else claims doctor, my vote is on you. The doc blocked, would rather lynch on what seems to be rather on what might maybe just be. Ceolocanths are more certain than kobolds.
Happy and John appear scummier than you, but the PR's statement stand.
If Cheese is Doc, and if you are town, then Yellow has pulled a trick.
Tbh even if I told people not to vote you, they'd vote you.
I'm too lazy to quote-wall and spoiler argument things but Cheese is 100% right that you implied you were a power role and the reality is that your entire case on me is just fear-mongering.
"Ooh yeah RB is playing supertown but WHATIF it's some secret advanced megaploy?!"
Quite simply, no. If the only thing you have on me is that I'm very town but MAYBE I'm scum...that applies to everyone in the game from a town perspective.
Also just want to make it clear that I put my lynch order as Pmj/Happy/Helvete and you said Day 1 I would have switched to someone like Cheese if you flipped green - well I wouldn't have, it was always Helvete because I knew that it's impossible you're both Town.
What I'm going to do at some point today is dive Helvete's filter and figure out why he sheeped me and look for a likely scumpartner. But you unfrotunately do need to die today Pmj. If you're town, voice suspicions on who you think is scum other than me because I'm not scum. Read the game the way you say you're capable of and sniff out another scum. If you're town, you will win this game when we lynch the 2nd scum, which we will.
I encourage you to not be bitter that I scumread you and that you're going to die. Find the other scum then. When you flip, we'll know you can be trusted and also: the Doctor can probably roleblock that persom again. Maybe, not sure but it's better than just moping about me sucking.
Happy is dying next if you flip town and Cheese remains unCC'd. If you think that's not a good lynch, find me one that is. You win with town, regardless of whether or not you get lynched.
@Cheese: why was your post #145 on page3 in this thread completely devoid of any analysis of Helvete when he was one of the most active players in the game?
I just skimread through Day 1, Happy's an unlikely partner of Helvete. So is Pmj actually. Helvete was fine voting both these players and his votes at the time, if I am reading correctly - put each player in the lead.
Considering Helvete wasn't at that great a lynch risk and it's only Day 1, this would be some next-level bussing. I honestly don't feel good about a Happy or Pmj lynch anymore.
Unvote
Everyone needs to re-read Helvete's posts at least and note 3 things: who he scumread, who he townread and most importantly, who he didn't interact with at all.
He buddied me because 2 of my lynch targets were town imo, I'm actually inclined to believe Pmj's semantic bullshit because reading through Helvete's filter just makes Pmj so fucking unlikely imo.
IF YOU ARE DOCTOR YOU FUCKING COUNTERCLAIM CHEESE RIGHT NOW
Also, look for examples of players avoiding interaction with one another generally. Minu is super unlikely scum because she went on Helvete without any hesitation. Rook + Latte may have been avoiding getting on Pmj wagon for towncred, though again it seems unlikely they'd just bus straight out of gate because it puts their partner under huge suspicion and then you get...this.
Losing Helvete isn't worth the towncred but I won't discount either as scum. However they're super low priority rn.
John didn't vote Helvete until I forced him to, and Helvete was basically dead regardless. He also followed the same buddying patterns as Helvete.
He's with me "as long as it works" - I wonder if him and Helvete would have tried to see me lynched today if we lynched Pmj and he flipped green. Seems likely?
Everyone please re-read John, note anything you find where he ignores Helvete.
Oh and, Minu was super fast to interpret Pmj's soft-claim as a soft-claim and switched straight to scum Helvete. 99.9% chance of being town. I'm comfortable trusting her motivations implicitly for the sake of the rest of this game.
The only way Pmj/Happy is scum is if Helvete was so sure I'd lead town to lynching one of those 2, he threw as much shade on them as possible for as much towncred as possible....I guess that's possible.
But he threw way more shade at Pmj than Happy.
Lynch pool:
Happy
John
Cheese
Pmj you fuck don't ever imply a PR claim if you're not scum. I'm going to wait for a Cheese counter-claim before voting. Anything that isn't at least 12 hours before deadline will be ignored. You have about ~26 hours to counter-claim cheese whoever you are.
However, Pmj vote remains, as I said before only a counter claim can sway my vote atm.
If real doc is here, and Cheese no killed to fabricate a role block scenario, real doc has not claimed ergo Cheese is the real doc.
Right now ant town player counter claiming Cheese will be believed, as Pmj as pegged as 95% scum and I don't see someone trolling about for the lulz gaffafagers.
AFAIK all players excluding Pmj and Cheese spoke today, the staus quo remains in effect.
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) OR there are other shenanigans at play here. Whatever the case, if Cheese really is the doctor and he really did waste a role block on me, he at least still has the ability to (one would assume) protect himself tonight. So, another day earned.
