Temporary Closure - discussion

[EloquentBohemian]

Persnally, I think that the tribulations - which the Forum as a whole, the people who consider it a sanctuary/home/respite, and the mods/admins who had to deal with the problems directly and make the tough decisions - proved that this is a place which is important, if not dear, to many people and that the Forum shall grow stronger and more resilient in spite of, and because of, the assaults on its integrity.
What doesn't kill us, we eat for breakfast.

 

[Ermine]

^ I hope you're right. It would definitely make my 1.5 years here worthwhile to see this forum large and thriving, yet still high quality with intimate discussions.

And I hope my new signature helps remind the members to be less reactive, since I have over 2000 posts floating around.

 

[Tyria]

I cannot help but I admit I feel some (relief?) at the deserved bans of two *special* users. Goodbye, and good night to you both.

I suggest that we come up with strict anti troll rules to prevent something like this happening again. I find it regrettable that we must close our doors to new users to protect ourselves from trolls, but I do not have a viable alternative to offer. I think the staff did what was needed to be done, and I do not envy the decisions that they must make in extreme cases like this.

I sincerely hope that we can come together as a forum again, and that we will become stronger from these trials. And now, a metaphor:

We are all river rocks. Through trials and tribulations, the rough edges and cracks in our beings are worn away from the force of thw water rushing over us. When the water has finished with us, we are smooth polished stones. We are without blemish, and we are so much stronger and unbreakable than ever before.

Stay cool everyone,
CK

 

[Anling]

This is a surprise, but a relief too. It seems I have been unpleasantly surprised almost every time I've logged in recently. I swear I'm gone over night and some new hydra-headed drama pops up. And to make it worse I have absolutely no idea what's going on to cause it. (I stopped reading threads from those two members a while ago, so I have little knowledge of what all they've been doing. That seemed to leave little else to read though.)

Anyway, I'm glad for the time to repair the ship. We won't have to scuttle it after all. I'm really hoping for some good thread topics now. I've personally been wanting to start one on evolution as I'm a (graduated) biology student and it's one of my favorite topics. But that seems like it has too much potential for conflict. (I will (hopefully) never respond to one of my father's anti-evolution spiels again.) *sigh* One of these days I'll come up with something interesting to talk about.

 

[Da Blob]

Anyway, I'm glad for the time to repair the ship. We won't have to scuttle it after all. I'm really hoping for some good thread topics now. I've personally been wanting to start one on evolution as I'm a (graduated) biology student and it's one of my favorite topics. But that seems like it has too much potential for conflict. (I will (hopefully) never respond to one of my father's anti-evolution spiels again.) *sigh* One of these days I'll come up with something interesting to talk about.

Actually, if framed correctly, it could be a good thread. I think that a lot of the misunderstanding of the topic is due to people talking about different concepts, but using the word, evolution for all these concepts. I , personally, have tried to distinguish evolution the science from Evolution the philosophy/religion... It would be nice to be able to come to a common agreement on the topic(s)...

While I have been lurking I have noticed that if not for Cobherst the Science, Religion and Philosophy section would have gone dry. I could start a few threads...

 

[Anling]

I'm just very used to having my head bit off and buried in corners of the garden for discussing evolution. So I've been holding off. Maybe I will go start that thread, once I think of a better way that just "Evolution, discuss!" That doesn't seem so very productive.

 

[Da Blob]

I'm just very used to having my head bit off and buried in corners of the garden for discussing evolution. So I've been holding off. Maybe I will go start that thread, once I think of a better way that just "Evolution, discuss!" That doesn't seem so very productive.

You could start off with definition of the word/concept or several intriguing quotes...
No need to make a target of your Self just trying to begin an edifying discussion...

 

[Ogion]

Heh, i would like talking Evolution. And i also think that you shouldn't receive the same flak here that you would get on general discussion or even religious forums

Ogion

 

[Da Blob]

Well, perhaps because i am an INTPian, I seem to be one of the few individuals who believe in both God and the Science of evolution... It seems strange that it is presented as an either/or issue, where one is false and the other is true...

 

[Anling]

Well, I guess I'll have to do it then. Blast! And I just turned that book back into the library too. Well, I guess I'm almost done with the ones I replaced it with and I can go back and check it out again. I don't have any interesting quotes of my own. I did just print out a great article on the purpose of different pupil shapes. Rambling sorry.

 

[Felan]

Even believing in God as I do I have a deep fascination and conviction of the truth of the Theory of Evolution.

 

[snowqueen]

Auburn, we sort of need you here, now. You bring sensitivity and a drive to get to know individual people that's sorely lacking everywhere else, and knowledge of the cognitive functions second only to decaf. You've also creativity and artistic talent that work wonders (collage of the forum members, anyone? And don't act like I didn't see that yin-yang think you drew ) in a situation like this. I won't say what will force you to come and help, but I know you could still do good things here, and I think that you might be irreplacable in that regard .

ditto ditto ditto!!!!

I suggest that we come up with strict anti troll rules to prevent something like this happening again.
Stay cool everyone,
CK

I agree - I've made some suggestions - I would invite others to do the same so we can work together to develop a stategy. Decaf seems to have some useful experience to offer.

Even believing in God as I do I have a deep fascination and conviction of the truth of the Theory of Evolution.

I don't really believe in either! So bring it on.

 

[Felan]

I don't really believe in either! So bring it on.

Oh heathens are sexy!

 

[The Fury]

I've been gone for the last few days so I'm kinda confused here. I think most of us knew that Haruhi was XIII, so I'm not exactly surprised to see him banned again, but why was face banned.

Edit:

I've done some research and I now understand so I no longer need an explanation.

 

[Sapphire Harp]

Fury, I think an explanation should be posted as others may have the same question... Personally, I think FacetiousPersona was banned in what I would call a 'moment of clarity', which came when the drama with Haruhi reached its peak...

Permanent banning of Face was considered back in March after a very quick run of very offensive behavior, swamping the forum with trivial posts, being thoroughly disrespectful towards the moderators and administrators, etc...

It was decided that there wasn't enough evidence that Face wasn't acting in fun, being seriously misunderstood, and being provoked it further activity because of that misunderstanding.

Members of the forum were asked to be more open minded and give Face another more accepting chance, and there was a simultaneous expectation that Face would act more appropriately and try to ingratiate himself more to the people of the forum.

Face's behavior did change in that it grew to be less blatantly offensive but more subtly degrading and divisive for the forum. Particularly, Face acted to make the work of the moderators very much more difficult... especially by spreading confusion about the moderator's activities. In the end, I expect at least a fifty item list could be made of reasons Face's behavior was out of line...

If Face was merely trying to play a game -with- the forum, rather than -against- the forum - it was a game that never stopped hurting people. There are plenty of testaments to that in the forum...

About this time, the moderators decided that the problem was, indeed, not improving as expected and it was time to finally take care of it before things had a chance to really slip out of control.

(My apologies for any misassumptions about your actions, LoR, Anthile, Ogion, Jesin, and Weliddryn.)
​

 

[Jennywocky]

Well, perhaps because i am an INTPian, I seem to be one of the few individuals who believe in both God and the Science of evolution...

I see reflective patterns of both, in nature and in human behavior.
Beyond that, I can't really say what is true.

There are so many things that humans force into binary pairs, that really do not have to be, though.

 

[Ermine]

Well, perhaps because i am an INTPian, I seem to be one of the few individuals who believe in both God and the Science of evolution... It seems strange that it is presented as an either/or issue, where one is false and the other is true...

You're not the only one.

*resists derailing*

 

[Decaf]

I think my most relevant experience is being a server admin for a gaming clan called the Old Farts. The clan is for 30 year olds and older and has about 250+ members playing an assortment of games regulated through their main site. I was introduced to them about 3-4 years ago playing Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory, and I've been a referee for that game for about 2 years.

Being a first person shooter we have no shortage of players with bad attitudes joining the server (ours is one of the few popular servers left). People with hacks, teamstackers and ignorant/knowing rule violators. The referee policy is very specific and it had to evolve out of a lot of problems.

Rule #1: For any serious action a referee must collect some evidence or have witnesses
Rule #2: All banned players have the right to question the action in the forum
Rule #3: If the Ref is found to be in the wrong, a different ref must make the apology
Rule #4: If you can't decide who is right, trust the ref

I believe the first and last rule are the most important of the set. To make that happen you first need to create a folder that only moderators and administrators can see. I only assume it doesn't exist because I can't see it Any actionable material should be moved or copied there and kept as evidence to be discussed.

A second folder should be opened for appeals (postable by accounts in ban status 1, but not ban status 2). By having an appeal folder you allow for more frequent use of the ban option because its not as severe as complete lack of access. It also allows for questionable bans to become more clear cut (if they go onto the appeal folder and start cursing, insulting, etc...), which helps the conscience and improves your confidence.

Never require the moderator who made the mistake to directly apologize to the injured party. Yes, they should admit their guilt in the privacy of the moderator folder, but no further. Do not humiliate the people on the front lines if you want them to be able to do their job. It also helps keep the tempers down of those involved.

Finally, the old stand-by. Mods are chosen because they are trustworthy, so trust them. If you get a bunch of abuse claims, or another moderator points out their improper actions, then deal with it, but never trust the word of someone with an axe to grind over the person in authority. Even if you like the injured party more than the moderator.

_____

The rules that get someone in trouble are obviously going to be a little different because we are much more forgiving of cursing than the old farts are (their kids play on that server, so they're a little protective). Still, these are some of the rules we have that are transferable to a forum atmosphere.

Things that get your post deleted:
Disrespecting another player (this covers a lot of ground obviously)
Arguing with a moderator
Spam

Things that get you banned:
Repeat offenses (in a short time frame, where ignorance is not an excuse)
High Level Disrespect (i.e. the infamous misogynistic post)

Things that get you demoted from moderator status:
Lack of a diplomacy first attitude
Obvious favoritism
Break the rules intentionally

____

I don't know if any of that helps, but if you can draw some inspiration from it, wonderful.

 

[Da Blob]

There has been some discussion as how the community can "Grow" out of the current crisis situation. One possibility for expansion is a facebook group for intpforum members. If being anonymous is not that important to members it might work ... It just seems that trolls and trouble makers have to function behind the false persona of a avatar, a rather cowardly tactic... but who knows I am just throwing the idea out for discussion...

 

[fullerene]

I feel like any trolls could easily make a facebook thing to troll with, too. I think it would have made sense if people were limited more strictly to one facebook per person (like when it used to be just for college students, and you needed a college email to make an account, and colleges would only give you one). Since it's just as easy to make one of those as to make an account here, though, what would be the difference between having a little network there and just adding information to our profiles here?

Also: I, at least, don't have a facebook, so I wouldn't be there. How easy is it for a troll to just say "I don't have one, sorry," and that be the end of it? False persona allowed to run rampant again.

 

[Hawkeye]

I feel like any trolls could easily make a facebook thing to troll with, too. I think it would have made sense if people were limited more strictly to one facebook per person (like when it used to be just for college students, and you needed a college email to make an account, and colleges would only give you one). Since it's just as easy to make one of those as to make an account here, though, what would be the difference between having a little network there and just adding information to our profiles here?

Also: I, at least, don't have a facebook, so I wouldn't be there. How easy is it for a troll to just say "I don't have one, sorry," and that be the end of it? False persona allowed to run rampant again.

Someone created an imaginary female character on Facebook and started a relationship with a guy. They suggested a meeting place together and he drove about 400 miles to a field in the middle of nowhere. He received a phone call shortly after he arrived. It was two blokes informing him that she never existed and that they have all the personal 'sexual' photo's he thought he sent to her.

These people exist everywhere.


Don't trust anyone you speak to on the Internet. There is no guarantee they'll be genuine. Never reveal anything unless you are absolutely sure you won't be affected by the abuse of this knowledge.

For example "I'm a Virgin". I don't care what anyone thinks about this statement and I will happily say it to anyone.


Do this and you may even find troll-like characters entertaining.

 

[snowqueen]

I'm sure it's not just me - but I have certainly noticed a whole different (positive) feel to this forum since the temporary closure. I hope that convinces the doubters that the decision, though difficult, was the correct one.

 

[dents]

I said this in the witch hunt thread and I'll say it again here: I'd volunteer to look at and implement technical solutions to the troll problem. There are no guarantees (that's impossible), but it should make their lives much harder, without affecting regular members. Come on admins, lemme at em!

 

[Cobra]

I'm not embarassed to say that Face, Cow, etc... were the reason I left again when I tried to come back in March.

I, too, was on leave. I needed a break from the bad vibes I was getting back in April.

I can't say it was directly related to Face, but something about the focus of so many being on someone with such little respect for what this place is makes my stomach curdle.

Many of our Mods displayed a horrible contempt for her original sin. They also came off as... rational. By the end of her short ban, Face was back on the block with more respect being winked her way than she could shake a stick at. Most of which was coming from the Mods. This may sound like a criticism (at one point in time, it may have manifested itself as such, silently), but in fact, it's our Moderators' open minds that we have to thank for a number of our awesome liberties on this site. This "softness" was something that just came with the territory of allowing equal freedoms (something I support) to this extremely divisive jerk, Face.

The first banning was amidst my first week as a member. I couldn't help but wonder what was said; what was uttered that made her such a fucking shooting star. When I had a run in with her, I realized instantly I was dealing with someone I didn't like. I've treated her as though she's been on my Ignore list for as long as this.

What has been ignored (correct me, if I'm wrong), though, is the fact that this person is, simply put, just some person. Why does this person need intpforum so hard that they deserve our sanctuary squander after squander? What are we providing to this person that this person cannot go out and find it somewhere else? The bull shit is climbing up our necks and into our noses, and yet we sit around and go, "You know what? Face DID have something neat to say every once in a while." This isn't someone's freedom of speech being violated. This is simple policing. Stop shitting in our living room. We LIVE here.

This isn't a puppy we're talking about here. This isn't a dog with no home, no food, no oxygen. This is just another obnoxious case of "Can't get rid of the dog without getting rid of the kids, too." Are we worried about exodus??? What's going on out there?

 

[snowqueen]

I hear what you say, Chris and agree for the most part. But like anything we get the Mods we deserve. And I think you cannot underestimate the pressure that was being put on them by the troll/s and the people they had duped into supporting them. The Mods respond as fairly as possible and so I think that the wishes of the INTP-interested members were being outweighed - but maybe too the members were too tolerant. I personally think our Mods are fantastic - partly because of their reluctance to be authoritarian. If we want them to act decisively than it really is our duty to support them to the hilt. I think that in the past week they have earned that respect from the majority of INTP-interested members, if not all.

And I agree with your last sentiment - it's not like this is the only place in the world. And instead of an exodus we seem to have had re-emergence and de-lurking.

 

[The Fury]

I am in complete agreement with snowqueen here. I've found the moderators and administrators here far surpass any other forum. Then again this is the only forum I'm ever on so that's kind of a double-edged compliment

So when is this forum going to be officially re-opened.

 

[Agent Intellect]

closing down the forum to new recruits wasn't the "win" for the trolls, but the ensuing paranoia is. witch hunt indeed. how many more people will be banned because a few people think they're an asshole? how easy is it going to be to get banned now? a troll to you may not be a troll to me. isn't it decafs signature that says “I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.”? are we giving up freedom for a "safer" environment?

 

[Ogion]

Hm. I think one difference, one aspect, we have to think about is, that this is a privately owned forum. A private place that has in principle an open door for people to come in and talk.
This means, that it is not the only place for pople to express themselves. this is more like some clubhouse or something, rather than a public market place.
Someone (Jennywocky mentioned something like this too) said it, this is like a living room rather than 'the street'. I'm pretty sure most people wouldn't tolerate certain behaviour in their living rooms. And you don't get "violated/restricted in your free speech" when you can't insult people in their living rooms, right? You can still go to other peoples living rooms and complain to them how the other person is an asshole.
You restrict your free speech way more by not going to every place and hsout your opinion than by being restricted to do so in one tiny corner of the places where you can speak...

Ogion

 

[fullerene]

closing down the forum to new recruits wasn't the "win" for the trolls, but the ensuing paranoia is. witch hunt indeed. how many more people will be banned because a few people think they're an asshole? how easy is it going to be to get banned now? a troll to you may not be a troll to me. isn't it decafs signature that says “I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.”? are we giving up freedom for a "safer" environment?

That's almost a guarantee. It seems like a sure-law of nature, though, that when a pendulum starts too far in one direction, it overcorrects itself. Of course, you remember how hard it was to get banned here, for such a long time.... I very much expect the banning-frequency to be too high for a little while. Sacrificing freedom for safety, banning not-quite-trolls because the administration overreacts seems like an obvious, unavoidable outcome right now, for a bit... but it's more a question of "do those in charge keep that power to use at whim, or will they make every attempt to settle the banning into 'just right' as best as they can.

 

[Cobra]

Hm. I think one difference, one aspect, we have to think about is, that this is a privately owned forum. A private place that has in principle an open door for people to come in and talk.
This means, that it is not the only place for pople to express themselves. this is more like some clubhouse or something, rather than a public market place.
Someone (Jennywocky mentioned something like this too) said it, this is like a living room rather than 'the street'. I'm pretty sure most people wouldn't tolerate certain behaviour in their living rooms. And you don't get "violated/restricted in your free speech" when you can't insult people in their living rooms, right? You can still go to other peoples living rooms and complain to them how the other person is an asshole.
You restrict your free speech way more by not going to every place and hsout your opinion than by being restricted to do so in one tiny corner of the places where you can speak...

Ogion

Thank you, Ogi. Well elaborated upon, imb.

What I was trying to say, by using a living room as a metaphor, was that this forum is something that needs to be given the respect it deserves. By simply ushering out people who are quite obviously here for no particular reason than to not only direspect it, but also undermine the respect its been/is being given by its established curators and incoming social wealth, we're effectively making this a safer place. This, like the paranoia and tension that the disruptors caused, will pass. By this, I mean the closed doors. We are not isolationists. We just need a moment to potentially allow these dickheads to find a new vaginahead to inseminate. It will also allow us the time we need for reflection so that new members don't get that evil eye they were getting upon their arrivals.

 

[Agent Intellect]

the problem is, where does one draw the line? what criteria is there for one to be a troll? how can we determine someones intent or motives for posting? how do we know someone is being malicious or if they're just a jerk? can we ban people just for being assholes in general? what constitutes someone being an asshole? who's standard do we go by?

i've always thought that self regulation was the best way: if you don't like someone, add them to ignore (or just simply not respond to them). its the same idea with movies or television, if you find it offensive, then don't watch watch it. in this way, the line, the criteria, the standard, is set by each individual. if you feel someone is a troll, don't "watch". the problem isn't with the trolls themselves so much as the people feeding the trolls. our supply of feeding them will continue the demand.

 

[fullerene]

^^is a good point. It's the second half of that that's the problem. We've sort of seen what happens when trolls or troll-ish people come by, and people don't ignore them. Some feed them... but some just get quiet, shrink away, and leave. I'm not even sure, but isn't this what you did, yourself? Maybe I'm wrong, but is the reason you got bored with the forum during that time because you weren't interested in anything on it anymore? If so, then you don't really self-regulate any better than anyone else does.

It seems, at least, more efficient to get rid of them altogether.....even if it's just being pragmatic.

 

[Agent Intellect]

my absence i think is more of my own psychological problem. it wasn't just the forum that i closed myself off from.

but, the problem with "just getting rid of all of them" is, once again, how do we know who is a troll and who isn't? if one ore more people claim that someone is a troll, or that someones presence makes this a hostile environment, how can we prove otherwise?

 

[fullerene]

I think "is this ahostile environment?" is just as subjective as "is he a troll?" It seems sort of senseless to say the environment's hostility could ever be proven in one way or another. It's an extremely important value-call on the mods' part, imo, to judge whether more benefit is gained from the person/people who find the environment hostile, or the person/people making the environment hostile for those who find it so.

Perhaps we should just mod a trustworthy INFP, or someone well suited to making judgment calls . Needless to say, trust for whoever's in charge of such a decision is sort of critical.

 

[Sapphire Harp]

Are you hoping for an answer better than it being a judgement call by the staff? I don't think we're going to find a more reliable answer...

They have, or maybe will have a define set of criteria to judge activities against... but everything is qualitative. A simple rule like 'no more than five derailing posts a week' or something that just isn't flexible enough to handle the constantly unique situations which arise.

With Face's first banning, there was an appeal process which was granted... and now rescinded. By precedent, that option is a part of this situation, too. Which is not to mean the attacking and insulting of the moderators in the chat rooms, which seems to have followed most of the bannings thus far...
​

 

[Agent Intellect]

i suppose when it comes down to it, the idea that this is a private forum is the only way. simply by posting on this forum, we are agreeing to adhere to the law of those in charge. posting here isn't a right, but a privilege, and the people who run the forum have every right to remove that privilege.

 

[fullerene]

^^a very good post/point. All of the trolling thusfar, I think, has been done by people who insisted it was a right..... or at least taken it as an axiom, or at the core of all their arguments

actually, I'd argue against the idea of using precedent at all. That seems like such a fundamentally SJ way to do things: "we did it this way once. Now it's unchangeable."

I like the idea of appealing and mods taking input and stuff like that, for sure... but I strongly urge against using "precedent" as the reason for it. That just makes using precedent to set a bad precedent for later

 

[Sapphire Harp]

Well, sure - I'm just saying we can draw on the precedent.. It's a nice format. Perhaps we can outline it like this...

-Lines are crossed, banning is given.
-The person wants to appeal...
-Two or three days are given for things to calm down
-The banned person is given access to Siberia to argue the appeal...
-And that goes on until a final decision is made?
​

 

[Cobra]

I'm the President of Precedents!

No, but seriously, Saph, the voice of reason is so incredibly refreshing.

It stands to reason - has anyone that has been banned thus far shown little or no behavior that warranted their exile? Dare ya.

 

[Sapphire Harp]

Well, honestly Cobra - the banning of ChristopherL seemed a little premature to me. Inevitable, most like, but surprisingly early...

Then again, the reason for banning stated in the bans thread rarely documents the scope of the reasons behind the decision. (Maybe that needs to be clarified more each time?)
​

 

[EloquentBohemian]

simply by posting on this forum, we are agreeing to adhere to the law of those in charge. posting here isn't a right, but a privilege, and the people who run the forum have every right to remove that privilege.

This is the most important point of the discussion. I consider it a privilege to be a part of this community.

 

[Jennywocky]

We've sort of seen what happens when trolls or troll-ish people come by, and people don't ignore them. Some feed them... but some just get quiet, shrink away, and leave.

Neither solution is great, one is an aggressive move which unfortunately feeds the troll's motivational desire (attention/disruption), the other abdicates the forum to anyone who wants to walk in and take it. (Not much different than coming home and finding someone in your house, so you just leave and go elsewhere.)

If some long-term posters are getting overly aggressive and other long-term posters are vanishing, that's a pretty clear sign that the troll is being disruptive and needs removed from the community... basically the whole system is destabilizing at that point.

Well, honestly Cobra - the banning of ChristopherL seemed a little premature to me. Inevitable, most like, but surprisingly early...
Then again, the reason for banning stated in the bans thread rarely documents the scope of the reasons behind the decision. (Maybe that needs to be clarified more each time?)

One problem is that mod staff does need to give just enough information to allay people's fears that they are not abusing power; however, providing full information can create problems of its own (maybe some of the information is really embarrassing to the people in question, or just has to disclosure things that should remain private for the sake any troll's victims, etc.) and also create an atmosphere where mod decisions are constantly being nitpicked by someone in membership (because someone's always going to have an alternate opinion), making it hard to just carry out disciplinary action. There's also the sense that, at some point, we need to be able to trust the people in charge; this isn't a democracy or a Republic, it's a forum, and there is an established authority in charge; so the point is to have trustworthy people in power so that the membership can be free to just contribute to the sense of community and trust their representatives are doing their jobs to keep the forums safe and strong.

I guess I am basing part of my thoughts on this on my parenting experiences. Forums are a bit different since we are all supposed to be adults, but there's still a mentor/parental/disciplinary role that mod staff is serving.

 

[Cobra]

Well, honestly Cobra - the banning of ChristopherL seemed a little premature to me. Inevitable, most like, but surprisingly early...​

Then again, the reason for banning stated in the bans thread rarely documents the scope of the reasons behind the decision. (Maybe that needs to be clarified more each time?)​

Well let's look at the bill -

1. Posting almost wholly on sexually obsessed topics.

This is the smallest of his offenses, so I wanted to get it out of the way early. Nothing wrong with talking about sex. Nothing. But when you can't find anything else to talk about except for women, sex, "fucking," chauvanism, and the like, you're thinning the ice on which you tread. This is an intelligent place for mature topics. Not topics with an MA parental rating. As much as I hate to play censor, we have a diversity in age here you don't see everywhere. When you're naming threads things like "The importance of fucking," you need to be addressed... which leads me to his next offense.

2. Ignoring those who present you with a difference in ideas.

Again, a rather small offense. Larger than the first, but smaller than most. Nothing wrong with ignoring things that burn your ears (or eyes, w/e). But the context is important. People who presented a counter-argument were pressured to impress this person as if he was some sort of monarch atop his throne. Those who refused to either agree with him or present an idea that wasn't in the spirit of debate, he placed on Ignore, quite vocally so. Again, I'll have to say that this place is a forum for intelligent, mature topics. If you can't be either of those things with your threads, you don't have business posting them. Can't being the operative word. He described himself as having "rarely ever been wrong." Wha? The Ignore function is for when you can't reconcile your differences with a poster or you find them offensive and would rather just not read their posts. Not as an electronic form of "the bird." Which leads to the third... (see what I did there? *chuckle*)

3. Name-calling.

Those he placed on Ignore, he didn't actually Ignore, did he? He liked to place people on Ignore so he could call them outright names like "idiots," and "unintelligent," etc. That sort of thing isn't necessary. My response to his post was rather malicious because I had been lurking on his threads long enough to know I didn't like his MO. My "Mr. Wizard" post got me Ignored on the first go, but no one's heart was broken. I'm just saying, if you're gonna Ignore everyone who debates with you, at least don't flagrantly defame as if you're the Moderator banning those who oppose you from your own little mini-forum. If you think that many people deserve your ignorance, you need to leave. It's like the saying, "If you look around the poker table and can't find the sucker, you're it." It's not the forum that's broken. It's ChristopherL.

4. Disrespect.

Referring to people as "non-existent" when you turn off your computer? Really? That's how you feel about my favorite online community filled with wonderful people? Okay, asshole. Bye.

5. Abuse.

This would be "use" (and be tolerable) if all or most of the above had not come into play. He openly admits that he's running some kind of "experiment" on us all. The fact that "the experiment" had mostly to do with our female body, sex, and fucking the female bodies bothers me (and obviously lor, and anyone else involved in the ban). Referring to our masses as "guinea pigs" for his "tests." WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TESTING, DUDE? How utterly obnoxious. He was annoying for just "general poking." Most of us are friends around here, or at least, I consider many of you friends or "friendlies." "Running sexperiments" on all you "guinea pigs" while Ignoring all you "idiots..." it just started to add up.

He can do all this somewhere else. Just like Face.

EDIT: 6. Insulting science.

Self-explanitory. Get out.

 

[Inappropriate Behavior]

In other words Cobra, he was an ass. I agree. His own "standards" made me wonder why the hell he was here seeing as how he couldn't be bothered with peons like us.

 

[fullerene]

^^that's funny, because I actually would have attributed completely differeent offenses to him . The vocal ignoring I didn't mind so much, because if he never told you you were being ignored, you'd never know. I guess I thought of it as a sort-of-asshole way to let you know not to waste your time.... though it would have been politer to do through PM. In addition to your other offenses-list, though, I would add...

1. He actively never intended to "give anything back." He wasn't hiding those motives, but openly stated it. He ignored people who didn't leave comments that he benefited from, but in turn left us no beneficial comments of his own.

2. The lofty, throne-like position was more apparent than I thought you made it. In addition to your complaints, take a look at the "how does a woman show interest" thread. After 2 and a half hours of no answers, he bumped his own thread. The same thing happened with "the battle of the sexes" too. I could have sworn it happened a third time, but either the thread has been edited (the first 3 posts or so), or else my memory is faulty. Contrast this with respectful Weliddryn, who's "finding truth and depth" thread drew no serious response for over 2 days (the one sarcastic one, by chrisL himself, would have drawn insults back if it were from someone else directed towards his own thread), with no attempts to bump. If no one wants to answer each of your 4 repetitive threads, then back off.

3. "The importance of fucking" thread--closed by Anthile at 12:19 (my time). Reason? Duplicate thread--link given, so it was easy to find. "The importance of making love - really really hard" thread--opened at 12:21 (again, my time). Here's a tip for not-getting-banned: if the mods close your thread for being a duplicate, don't make another duplicate.

 

[snowqueen]

^^ fantastically analysed Cobra.

And actually those elements are, in different guises, part of the troll theme that has been emerging over the past 3 months.

The themes that are emerging from everyone's comments are that

1. we are a community
2. people who come here should either be interested in learning from the community (primarily about INTP) and/or interested in joining it.
3. being part of the this community is a privilege not a right

I teach group work and group dynamics and one of the things I teach about is roles - everyone adopts roles in groups. Some people tend to adopt roles to do with tasks: getting things done - and some adopt roles to do with process: how we get on with each other and the mood of the place. I have lists of these roles if anyone is interested. The important thing though is that their contribution is towards the group benefit - either as bringing value to tasks or process. Even people who are upset or asking for help or other gain from members is adopting are group role because it brings people together in a process to achieve a task.

There is another category though - people who are in a group but adopt an individual role. That is - their activity in a group is purely for individual motives and they have no emotional or practical investment in the group. I think if you look at XIII and ChristopherL they definitely fit this category. Face - it's less obvious but Face liked to use the forum as a playground and wasn't worried about the chaos caused as a result so on balance wasn't focused primarily on being a group member.

I think we are less clear about this stuff as INTPs because we are not naturally group-oriented types - most of us don't function well in groups or understand group dynamics well. Trolls could do PhDs in group dynamics! But actually it is the fact that this forum may well be one of the few groups we would choose to belong to as a member that makes it so important that we protect it for ourselves and future members like us.

 

[Sapphire Harp]

Well, sure... similarly off putting behavior to Face, but none of the aggression... I really didn't find myself taking any note of ChristopherL after the first time I saw him argue in a thread. He didn't seem interesting, he mostly posted in his own threads, and all those threads had off-putting titles. As far as a problem, he was rather contained - particularly in comparison to what the forum's just experienced.

I wasn't going to argue for him, really... the feeling I got was his departure from the forum (whether voluntary or banned) was the final destination for this...

On the other hand, if we call him troll - in this case he was clearly being fed... I hardly ever found occasion to read his worse threads, let alone post in them...

Ah... I don't know. I get the feeling if ChristopherL was extensively ignored and given warnings on his behavior, he probably would have left of his own accord fairly quickly. That's just my sense of things. Maybe it is time for a thorough cleaning, but this banning struck me as more preventative than earned.

An accurately assessed banning, I would think... but does it have the support and consensus that the other two bannings did? It doesn't really matter - but it seems appropriate to give warnings and suffer a bit more degradation than I seen (while not viewing his threads...) I guess everyone arguing with him was much further at odds with him than I. And perhaps a whole series of warnings were given. Very hard to say with what I know, having not payed him any mind...

Again, I think a little more elaboration is in order at the time of banning... At least among those offenses which are recorded in posts on the forum. They can be researched out, anyway...

* * * * *
​

Snowqueen, sounds like you have a new thread in order.

Also, I'm crashing now, so expect a long delay in my participation here, now...​

 

[fullerene]

I thought the same thing about the warnings, at first, but did he seem like the type of person who would have cared about warnings? I mean... it's not like he listened to anything else anyone said.

That said, I'm pretty confident that he was not a troll. I read every one of his posts, because I thought he was, but I'm convinced that he was not. He was consistent across the board (even if it was consistent hypocrisy in places), and he was anything but subtle in attacks. The people he did insult were ignored after 2-3 insulting-posts, and he never spoke to them again. I think you're right, sapphire, that he probably would have left on his own accord if people stopped caring about him. That did speed up the process, though.

 

[Auburn]

Indeed cryptonia,
I'm reminded of the parable of the wheat and the terriers. There is a time to let both grow together for the sake of uncertainty, but there comes a time when the distinction is made, and as soon as it can be made, there truly is no point in waiting any longer, or letting it ripen or progressing any further.

Shall we wait until chaos emerges every time before it is enough for us to say nay? Or can we trust that the guiding hands of this forum saw it fit to take this action - though premature as it may look in our limited eyesight - to shield this place of what would have otherwise been another inevitable disaster.

I for one trust that this decision was made in sound judgment, and in foresight, to prevent what would have otherwise naturally resulted in more discord.

 

[snowqueen]

I know a couple of complaints have been made about ChristopherL's verbally abusive posts at individuals. One must presume that he was warned about this and ignored it.

Folks - we either have to trust our Mods or not.