Induldge yourself with some Kantian Liberation!

[Milo]

http://www.columbia.edu/acis/ets/CCREAD/etscc/kant.html

 

[SpaceYeti]

Kant's an asshole.

 

[Milo]

A liberated one :P

 

[SpaceYeti]

According to him, sure.

 

[Milo]

According to the definition of liberation.

 

[redbaron]

*snore*

 

[Milo]

^Watch out for people like this. They use fallacious tactics to scare you away from the truth!

Lol

 

[redbaron]

Yes Milo, we all know how proud you are of yourself that you've become a new person, you've 'escaped' your cave.

Though this isn't really a new experience for you, is it? This is now the third time you've had an, 'epiphany' like this and shared it with the forum. I wonder what's different this time...you do seem even more delusional than before - maybe that's the key - delusion?

Well congratulations I suppose, in finally deluding yourself into believing you're enlightened.

To be honest, most of the people who claim themselves, 'enlightened', 'liberated' or something else of that nature, are repulsive to me. Seems like what people consider, 'enlightenment' is more commonly born from wilful delusion than anything else.

People convince themselves they're enlightened/superior, that they've rid themselves of ego and they don't let anything even hint at the otherwise. Pretty ironic watching these people when they're questioned about these things, they give pretty obvious indication that they haven't really removed their ego. More like ego is being suppressed to give a false pretense of (superficial) enlightenment to the world.

Which often seems to manifest in people being, 'overly' affectionate. That they seem to want to solve everyone else problems and share their superiority with the world, under the guise of, 'helping' people when really it's just a way for them to further qualify in their own minds that they are in fact, 'walking an enlightened path'.

Anyway, count me out of that, I'd rather be made acutely aware of all of my failures and shortcomings, of all the things I'm not and all that I am too idiotic to understand, than to delude myself to that point.

I'll walk my own path, irrespective of others. If I happen to encounter other beings who resonate with myself, then so be it. If not, I have no problem with being completely alone in the world.

 

[Etheri]

Yes Milo, we all know how proud you are of yourself that you've become a new person, you've 'escaped' your cave.

Though this isn't really a new experience for you, is it? This is now the third time you've had an, 'epiphany' like this and shared it with the forum. I wonder what's different this time...you do seem even more delusional than before - maybe that's the key - delusion?

Well congratulations I suppose, in finally deluding yourself into believing you're enlightened.

I would assume he's simply not come down of the rush he got over his first epiphany, and is posting arguments in favour of this same thought. The fact that he's still so strongly motivated through it, does speak in its favour. Ofcourse, he might be delusional. However, are we not all delusional, living lives which are built entirely on human abstraction, concepts and ideas?

Not to mention that by my own quite hedonic standards, managing to trick yourself into happiness is a valuable gift. After all, as long as he really believes in his very own delusion (assuming it is one), the perceived happiness is no diffrent than 'real happiness' for 'real reasons' would be. The chemicals are the same, and prior to the disillusionment so is the connotation attached to this happy feeling. So in fact, this perceived happiness is real happiness!

However, I must admit, I can't be bothered reading the article either. Not at the moment. Too lazy, too much text.

 

[Milo]

Yes Milo, we all know how proud you are of yourself that you've become a new person, you've 'escaped' your cave.

Though this isn't really a new experience for you, is it? This is now the third time you've had an, 'epiphany' like this and shared it with the forum. I wonder what's different this time...you do seem even more delusional than before - maybe that's the key - delusion?

Well congratulations I suppose, in finally deluding yourself into believing you're enlightened.

To be honest, most of the people who claim themselves, 'enlightened', 'liberated' or something else of that nature, are repulsive to me. Seems like what people consider, 'enlightenment' is more commonly born from wilful delusion than anything else.

People convince themselves they're enlightened/superior, that they've rid themselves of ego and they don't let anything even hint at the otherwise. Pretty ironic watching these people when they're questioned about these things, they give pretty obvious indication that they haven't really removed their ego. More like ego is being suppressed to give a false pretense of (superficial) enlightenment to the world.

Which often seems to manifest in people being, 'overly' affectionate. That they seem to want to solve everyone else problems and share their superiority with the world, under the guise of, 'helping' people when really it's just a way for them to further qualify in their own minds that they are in fact, 'walking an enlightened path'.

Anyway, count me out of that, I'd rather be made acutely aware of all of my failures and shortcomings, of all the things I'm not and all that I am too idiotic to understand, than to delude myself to that point.

I'll walk my own path, irrespective of others. If I happen to encounter other beings who resonate with myself, then so be it. If not, I have no problem with being completely alone in the world.

You are the perfect example of the person who is not enlightened. You recognize things such as pride and criticize people based on the abstractions of good and bad "failures and shortcomings." You learn there is no such thing. It is your mind playing tricks on you.

And no, I have been set in the same mindset for a while now. I'm just finding more and more ways towards to explain it so others can fully understand. You must unlearn the things that are not actually real and use untainted reasoning to decide what you want to do in every situation.

 

[QuickTwist]

http://youtu.be/02iQpti1r1s

 

[Milo]

You can only know yourself and you can only experience the present moment. I've come to the edge of knowledge where I know everything I possibly can by the definition of knowledge which is me knowing myself. Everything I think of know is in order to accomplish something that I wish to do in the present moment (there is only the present). I'm no longer worrying about hypothetical things that could happen or what has happened because they only exist in memory/thought.

Don't let other people tell you what to do and don't let your fear (guilt, shame, worry) control you either. You're free because you don't process the fear that the mind creates and use your own understanding to do what you want. Live in the present and do whatever you wish without creating expectations that will cause you to fear not getting the thing you want.

Without constant emotions like anger, fear, or sadness messing with you, you can fully focus on doing the things you want to do in the moment.

 

[SpaceYeti]

People who claim to be enlightened are generally lying or deluded. If you're actually enlightened, you have no reason to advertise the fact, you'd have nothing to prove, you'd simply be enlightened, thus allowing your state to be known through observation alone. Being enlightened isn't an award or staus you get to hang on your wall. Assuming it's synonymous or similar to wisdom, it's nothing more than a useful skill.

http://www.google.co.kr/url?sa=t&so...WutVMIWnpBGU0Y97Q&sig2=gcP9eGglE5lkaF67NWTOYw

 

[Milo]

People who claim to be enlightened are generally lying or deluded. If you're actually enlightened, you have no reason to advertise the fact, you'd have nothing to prove, you'd simply be enlightened, thus allowing your state to be known through observation alone. Being enlightened isn't an award or staus you get to hang on your wall. Assuming it's synonymous or similar to wisdom, it's nothing more than a useful skill.

I'm not proving my enlightenment. I'm trying to teach others about it because I enjoy doing so. Enlightenment is being yourself. Being totally liberated to do anything you want without being influenced by something other than one's own understanding. It is not possible to prove one's enlightenment to anyone but themselves because of the barrier between knowledge and reality.

You can only trust me.

 

[SpaceYeti]

I'm not proving my enlightenment. I'm trying to teach others about it because I enjoy doing so. Enlightenment is being yourself. Being totally liberated to do anything you want without being influenced by something other than one's own understanding. It is not possible to prove one's enlightenment to anyone but themselves because of the barrier between knowledge and reality.

You can only trust me.

I think you just defined being a person. Being yourself + not being limited by something besides your own understanding = Everybody, since you do not understand anything except in the way you understand it, and you are yourself, by necessity.

 

[JimJambones]

From my understanding of enlightened, enlightened individuals are humble by their very nature. Stating one is enlightened is not humble at all. Therefore, one who states they are enlightened is most likely not enlightened. I try not to conflate being enlightened with being knowledgeable.

 

[redbaron]

You are the perfect example of the person who is not enlightened.

I'd be more worried if you said I was enlightened, because as deluded as you are it would be an almost sure sign that I am indeed crazy.

You recognize things such as pride and criticize people based on the abstractions of good and bad "failures and shortcomings." You learn there is no such thing. It is your mind playing tricks on you.

What's wrong with criticism? It's not inherently negative, and in my experience it's more often interpreted as a negative, than intended as one. Most criticism is legitimate in some way, it's an opportunity to improve and learn.

Who said failure was a bad thing either? Everyone does it - all the time. If you try something and don't succeed, you have by definition, failed. I fail all the time. Sometimes (often?) I fail spectacularly. These are my favourite failures, because it's when I really learn something. In fact I usually learn more from failing than succeeding because, if I succeed, it's usually because I already had the ability to achieve that goal in the first place - so nothing is really gained. Yet if I fail, I understand myself better.

Interesting that you would say there's no such thing as, 'failures and shortcomings'. Is there also no such thing as, 'successes and capabilities' then?

And do you think it's bad to not be enlightened? I'm curious.

 

[Milo]

I think you just defined being a person. Being yourself + not being limited by something besides your own understanding = Everybody, since you do not understand anything except in the way you understand it, and you are yourself, by necessity.

The difference is that you do not have any fears. You are 100% confident in your own choices without having to ask questions to anyone or even yourself. Knowing yourself and how you relate to reality gives you liberation out of knowledge vs. that of a child who is liberated because of ignorance of the influences which is the perceived existence of good and bad behaviors. This causes one to second guess one's self and think hard about what is the moral thing to do and feeling bad when they think they did something bad. You realize that good and bad are all products of the mind. This causes them to truly act according to your own understanding with confidence without the regret as a possibility.

The outcome is that you become "an untroubled soul" and live completely in the moment completing the tasks you choose with your bodily urges directing your most basic needs.

It is this way of living vs. living in a state of fear which contains worry, depression, sadness, anger, shame, confusion, regret, and other prolonged negative emotions.

 

[Milo]

From my understanding of enlightened, enlightened individuals are humble by their very nature. Stating one is enlightened is not humble at all. Therefore, one who states they are enlightened is most likely not enlightened. I try not to conflate being enlightened with being knowledgeable.

Who is your example of someone who is enlightened? I remember reading some rules that you are only supposed to tell people things when the time is appropriate. Perhaps this is why you think this?

Or perhaps the quiet people are afraid to be proven wrong? If anyone could prove me wrong it would change my thoughts or improve them which is what I've always done with any thoughts I've had.

The right knowledge can lead someone to enlightenment. Enlightenment can also exist with the lack of certain knowledge.

 

[Milo]

I'd be more worried if you said I was enlightened, because as deluded as you are it would be an almost sure sign that I am indeed crazy.

What's wrong with criticism? It's not inherently negative, and in my experience it's more often interpreted as a negative, than intended as one. Most criticism is legitimate in some way, it's an opportunity to improve and learn.

Who said failure was a bad thing either? Everyone does it - all the time. If you try something and don't succeed, you have by definition, failed. I fail all the time. Sometimes (often?) I fail spectacularly. These are my favourite failures, because it's when I really learn something. In fact I usually learn more from failing than succeeding because, if I succeed, it's usually because I already had the ability to achieve that goal in the first place - so nothing is really gained. Yet if I fail, I understand myself better.

Interesting that you would say there's no such thing as, 'failures and shortcomings'. Is there also no such thing as, 'successes and capabilities' then?

And do you think it's bad to not be enlightened? I'm curious.

Criticism is not wrong because nothing is wrong, but the way you criticize indicates you are not enlightened. You use things such as good, bad, failure, and success as generalities instead of things that are in terms of specific goals. They do not exist unless they are in terms of a goal. And, in life you'll find that there is no inherent goals. It's all up to you.

And yes, in terms of one reducing one's suffering as a goal, I would say that not being enlightened is bad.

EDIT: The idea that one must suffer in order to have pleasure is not correct either. It depends on how you interpret the world. It only exists if you are creating expectations. An example would be you going to a carnival and enjoying it then creating the expectation that it is really fun in your head then going again and it doesn't live up to the hype.

Expectations are a way of labeling things with a Form. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_Forms

When you are doing this you are confusing reality with knowledge and keeping it fixed. You ruin all the novelty of the experience. But when you don't use a Form(s) to see reality the same event isn't the same anymore. There are many new experiences that can be had in going on the same carnival ride.

Life becomes fun once again.

By the way. The words we are using right now to describe life can only be interpreted as Forms, otherwise you would not understand me. This is why language is the problem. The way you think is important in your zest for life.

 

[Duxwing]

I'd be more worried if you said I was enlightened, because as deluded as you are it would be an almost sure sign that I am indeed crazy.

Among others.

What's wrong with criticism? It's not inherently negative, and in my experience it's more often interpreted as a negative, than intended as one. Most criticism is legitimate in some way, it's an opportunity to improve and learn.

The only difference between constructive cricitism-- which is what I think that you mean-- and insults-- which is what I think that he means-- is that the former can tell you how to avoid the latter. But many 'critics' (and I speak in broad terms) are less interested in actually helping those whom they criticize than they are in expressing their disgust or admiration, so the term criticism has become unnecessarily charged with emotion. Some grammarians might even say that this change in use has effected a change in definition.

Essentially I'm saying "Come on, cut the guy some slack. He probably meant something else".

Who said failure was a bad thing either?

Well, you do fail when you fail, so failure isn't a good thing. I think of it more like a thundercould with a silver lining.

Everyone does it - all the time. If you try something and don't succeed, you have by definition, failed. I fail all the time. Sometimes (often?) I fail spectacularly. These are my favourite failures, because it's when I really learn something. In fact I usually learn more from failing than succeeding because, if I succeed, it's usually because I already had the ability to achieve that goal in the first place - so nothing is really gained. Yet if I fail, I understand myself better.

But what if you didn't know that you had that ability? One can, for example, discover a latent talent in music or the fine arts or try something without being sure of success or failure. Nevertheless, failures can teach us more, but our successes allow room for growth as well.

Interesting that you would say there's no such thing as, 'failures and shortcomings'. Is there also no such thing as, 'successes and capabilities' then?

That's pretty good point. I've never thought about that.

-Duxwing

 

[redbaron]

The only difference between constructive cricitism-- which is what I think that you mean

Nope.

Well, you do fail when you fail, so failure isn't a good thing.

No again. The fact that you failed doesn't mean anything in itself, it's not good or bad.

This causes one to second guess one's self and think hard about what is the moral thing to do and feeling bad when they think they did something bad.

How is this even significant? Most people aren't like that anyway. I can't even bring to mind anyone I know who is like that. Maybe this is more to do with the type of people I tend to to associate with though.

Were you like that?

Good and bad are all products of the mind.

What, you mean good and bad aren't objective concepts and that they're actually subjective? Wow, this concept is new...

Who isn't already aware of this stuff by the time they reach their teenage years? Have you really just started becoming aware of and understanding these concepts? I find that a little...sad.

 

[Duxwing]

How is this even significant? Most people aren't like that anyway. I can't even bring to mind anyone I know who is like that.

Were you like that?

I feel terrible when I've done bad things. Heck, I still have regrets about some of my old misdeeds.

-Duxwing

 

[Etheri]

If not, I have no problem with being completely alone in the world.

Somehow, I doubt that. (No offence)

The difference is that you do not have any fears. You are 100% confident in your own choices without having to ask questions to anyone or even yourself.

It is this way of living vs. living in a state of fear which contains worry, depression, sadness, anger, shame, confusion, regret, and other prolonged negative emotions.

I don't believe living completely, 100% without fears is possible under 'normal' circumstances. I also don't think living completely without fear would be desirable. Fear is a strong emotion, and while it isn't pleasant, it is often beneficial.

Who said failure was a bad thing either? Everyone does it - all the time. If you try something and don't succeed, you have by definition, failed. I fail all the time. Sometimes (often?) I fail spectacularly. These are my favourite failures, because it's when I really learn something. In fact I usually learn more from failing than succeeding because, if I succeed, it's usually because I already had the ability to achieve that goal in the first place - so nothing is really gained. Yet if I fail, I understand myself better.

I agree. Failure teaches us more than success, and for these reasons failure can be better towards learning than success, given the right circumstances. Either way, even failure and success tend not to be clearcut cases of 'good' and 'bad' events. Which makes me wonder, why do we even bother with success and failure rather than simply learning from events, whichever way they turn out?

Interesting that you would say there's no such thing as, 'failures and shortcomings'. Is there also no such thing as, 'successes and capabilities' then?

And do you think it's bad to not be enlightened? I'm curious.

I do not think it's bad not to be enlightened. I also don't think there's a 100% enlightened, or even 100% unenlightened person. We're on a spectrum in between these two, as with many other things. I do think we can move on this spectrum throughout our life. (Something which serveral people on here believe is not possible within MBTI !). As stated here before, enlightened is indeed a bad term. There's far too much 'divine' and 'superior' connotation attached to the term.

I think most people tend to lean to a too stressful, too serious life focussed on what they consider 'success'. From this point of view, more 'enlightenment' would be desirable. However, I don't think we should strive to be enlightened. Instead we should strive to maximize our happiness given the circumstances, and people can be happy anywhere on this 'enlightenment spectrum'.

As to your note of success and capabilities fading, I think this is true. You try to shift your focus. Personally, I don't think the distinction truly dissapears. There is still success, there is still failure, if you truly wanted to define it. However, there are are advantages to both and we can usually change little about past events.
For these reasons, there is no point on focussing on the dichotomy of success and failure. You just take things as they go, without having to label them as 'good' and 'bad', and simply try to see them as they are.
Does that seem so impossible or terrible?

It's not that all your arguments and reasons of why you call something a success or a failure are suddenly invalid or wrong. It's just that I can choose to ignore all these arguments, focussing on something else, for the sake of being happier. Everything you're thinking remains true, you only shift perspective, so that it appears reality has changed, yet the only thing that has really changed is you.

 

[Milo]

[ENCADRE][/ENCADRE]

How is this even significant? Most people aren't like that anyway. I can't even bring to mind anyone I know who is like that.

Were you like that?

In a way. Everyone has their own way of using their ego to cope with the superego's guilt. In retrospect, I don't think I used any. I allowed my superego to impose guilt and shame on me and it made me second guess everything. I accepted everything at face value which, I suppose caused me to suffer through the disillusion of thinking morals existed. The pain of the disillusion may have motivated me to search for more and more answers in order to create a solid belief system that corresponded to the truth.

It seems like you are still using some of the defense mechanisms based on your loaded words that contain personal judgement mixed with truth to make it sound true, but is actually in fact fallacious. (Take my criticism not in terms of personal judgement, but as a way to lead you to the truth). My criticism is to help you. Your criticism is to help yourself.

What, you mean good and bad aren't objective concepts and that they're actually subjective? Wow, so deep! This concept hasn't been covered in by dozens of people already...oh...

Who isn't already aware of this stuff by the time they reach their teenage years? Have you really just started becoming aware of and understanding these concepts? I find that a little...sad.

I've understood this for a long time, it was only mixed in with other false beliefs. You're judgement is based on false beliefs that you are interpreting as real. You belittle other people so that you feel superior. You are also vulnerable because you rely on this superiority. This is why the truth will set you free. You will no longer be vulnerable.

 

[SpaceYeti]

The difference is that you do not have any fears. You are 100% confident in your own choices without having to ask questions to anyone or even yourself. Knowing yourself and how you relate to reality gives you liberation out of knowledge vs. that of a child who is liberated because of ignorance of the influences which is the perceived existence of good and bad behaviors. This causes one to second guess one's self and think hard about what is the moral thing to do and feeling bad when they think they did something bad. You realize that good and bad are all products of the mind. This causes them to truly act according to your own understanding with confidence without the regret as a possibility.

The outcome is that you become "an untroubled soul" and live completely in the moment completing the tasks you choose with your bodily urges directing your most basic needs.

It is this way of living vs. living in a state of fear which contains worry, depression, sadness, anger, shame, confusion, regret, and other prolonged negative emotions.

Another term for people who don't care what other people think is "Asshole".

 

[Milo]

Asshole is actually a loaded term to associate one with an actual asshole. It is loaded with more meaning creating a fallacious view of a person not based on truth.

 

[Milo]

Another example of how people's minds play tricks on them. If one watches a horror movie and they see the house that people are murdered in in the movie they might subconsiously associate the look of that house with that of a house one sees and get a creepy sense of the house. They are associating the similarities of it with the house in the horror movie and automatically think it is creepy and will probably avoid it. You are all products of the media until you understand how it influences you. They are commercializing things and associating it with good and taking control of your subconscious. The news is also making you afraid of the real world by only showing you people getting scammed or people dying. Sure these things can happen, but you are fearing it more than you are just considering the possibility of it.

 

[SpaceYeti]

Using it's definition within the context it's generally used, it's not necessarily false. Oftentimes it can be, sure, but it's not necessarily untrue, thus making your argument a straw man. Some people really are assholes. Specifically, the people who don't care what other people think.

 

[Milo]

My goal here is to drag you all into the present moment. Free from your psychological fears. Free from influence. Free from expectation. Free from shame. Free from depression. Free from worry. Free from confusion. Free from hesitation. Free from competition. Free from false happinesses like pride and vengeance. Free from self-consciousness. Free from anxiety. Free from disappointment. Free from feeling like you don't belong. Free from cowardice. Free to be yourself.

Free at last.

 

[Absurdity]

My goal here is to drag you all into the present moment.

In that sense I think you have failed, because we're absorbed in arguing via the internet with little sense of the passage of time instead of, I don't know, climbing mountains or making love to beautiful women or whatever normal people do.

I'm hostile to the exhortation to live in the moment because it is usually advocated by sensors who really mean "Party! YOLO!" etc. I think it is much more constructive, if one is seeking "enlightenment," to meditate on the certainty of one's own death. As Hitchens once said (and here I'm going off memory because I'm too lazy to find the actual quote), "One is expelled from their mother's uterus as if shot from a cannon toward a barn door studded with nail files and rusty hooks. It is therefore incumbent upon the individual to use the intervening time in an intelligent and ironic way, and try not to do anything ghastly to one's fellow creatures."

Being aware of the fact that you are a mammal with a set termination date, in my view, is more helpful in prioritizing the various pursuits in one's life.

 

[snafupants]

Being aware of the fact that you are a mammal with a set termination date, in my view, is more helpful in prioritizing the various pursuits in one's life.

That's probably true. The pursuit of enlightenment itself is wildly impractical, especially according to any worldly criterion. Spirituality is, or should be, a thing apart from survival concerns and economic advancement. Anyway, the ultimate purpose of meditation, which few monks acknowledge or realize, is to redefine ego-mind's subordinate position to Reality. The idea is to still the chattering ego-mind's moment to moment myth making. What happens then? Try it and find out. I'm not hawking anything. That's just my view. And @Milo you're never going to convince SpaceYeti or redbaron. Just give it up. Edit: I've said it before: the hardest battle is against those who fully buy into ego-mind. They see no use for spirituality. Things feel basically OK to them. It takes a few roundhouses to the face to want a change. Is any one person better than another, though? I wouldn't say so, but there is a qualitative distinction.

 

[redbaron]

[ENCADRE][/ENCADRE]It seems like you are still using some of the defense mechanisms based on your loaded words that contain personal judgement mixed with truth to make it sound true, but is actually in fact fallacious. (Take my criticism not in terms of personal judgement, but as a way to lead you to the truth). My criticism is to help you. Your criticism is to help yourself.

Interesting, which defence mechanisms am I using?

Funny that you would accuse me of using, 'loaded words'. Assuming the only definition that makes sense: 1. (of a word, statement, or argument) charged with emotions or associations., you're doing the same thing.

Both of these statements are loaded:

'You're acting like an asshole'.

'You belittle other people so that you feel superior.'

In fact, simply telling someone they're acting like an asshole, is less of a loaded phrase, because they aren't associating as to why they're being an asshole. My questions are not really loaded in the way people usually use loaded questions. A truly loaded question would be something like,

'Have you stopped beating your wife yet?'

To answer either yes or no is to admit to having beaten her in the past. But I haven't asked you any question that didn't afford you the chance to answer and give your own perspective.

The news is also making you afraid of the real world by only showing you people getting scammed or people dying.

You're judgement is based on false beliefs that you are interpreting as real.

Other than making the judgement that you're deluded in thinking you are enlightened, I haven't made any. In any case, I think it's time we defined the term enlightenment.

1. factually well-informed, tolerant of alternative opinions, and guided by rational thought

Factually informed? In this thread you're pigeon-holing people, which you then keep linking back to why you're enlightened and those people aren't.

Tolerant? Maybe. Depends how you view it. You say you want to help other people, but it doesn't really seem like you care about alternative opinions at all, because you're already convinced your own is true.

I'm confused as to why you so readily dismiss other people's thoughts and ideas without attempting to understand and demonstrate otherwise. If your goal is to help people learn - you're using some pretty strange methods.

Guided by rational thought? I'd say no, but it'd be unfair of me to make that judgement based on forum interaction.

You belittle other people so that you feel superior. You are also vulnerable because you rely on this superiority. This is why the truth will set you free. You will no longer be vulnerable.

Not really. To belittle is to make something seem less important or impressive than it really is. The concept that 'good and bad' are subjective, is quite simply not that important or impressive to me.

As for superiority complex:

'She or he assumes that she or he is superior when she or he is not, and this false success compensates her or him for the state of inferiority which she or he cannot bear.'

Interesting to me, is the last past - that it is often used as a crutch to compensate for the unbearable. Something like believing you're enlightened maybe?

'In psychology, it refers not to a belief, but a pattern of behaviors expressing the belief that one is superior.'

Gosh Milo, it's like they wrote this stuff specifically about you.

And yes, in terms of one reducing one's suffering as a goal, I would say that not being enlightened is bad.

Interesting. I thought goals, good and bad didn't exist. Yet clearly you're saying not being enlightened is bad? Why have you suddenly made a value judgement of something as bad, when you've already stated that you don't believe there is even such a thing as, 'good and bad', that it's all a trick of the mind?

Is this judgement you're making your mind playing tricks, or does the concept of good and bad, in fact, exist?

These two things you've posited are contradictory, being unenlightened cannot be bad if bad doesn't exist. Please elucidate.

 

[Milo]

In that sense I think you have failed, because we're absorbed in arguing via the internet with little sense of the passage of time instead of, I don't know, climbing mountains or making love to beautiful women or whatever normal people do.

I'm hostile to the exhortation to live in the moment because it is usually advocated by sensors who really mean "Party! YOLO!" etc. I think it is much more constructive, if one is seeking "enlightenment," to meditate on the certainty of one's own death. As Hitchens once said (and here I'm going off memory because I'm too lazy to find the actual quote), "One is expelled from their mother's uterus as if shot from a cannon toward a barn door studded with nail files and rusty hooks. It is therefore incumbent upon the individual to use the intervening time in an intelligent and ironic way, and try not to do anything ghastly to one's fellow creatures."

Being aware of the fact that you are a mammal with a set termination date, in my view, is more helpful in prioritizing the various pursuits in one's life.

Everyone on this site is already absorbed in it. I am trying to bring everyone to the edge of knowledge so they may see that thinking too hard about what they should do with their lives or about what they have been doing with it. The edge of knowledge is when you realize it is pointless to lose yourself in your own head or to identify with anything in reality, which includes your body and mind.

Identifying with your body and mind is a meta-program in the brain that causes one to fear death (the meta-program is of the ego which is connected to the ID which is instinctually afraid of death). The ultimate teaching of this is to allow everyone to stop the constant subconscious fear of death. The body and mind has the instincts to know what it is doing to avoid that from millions of years of evolution. You don't have to perpetuate it to think it is about to die by thinking things that are subconsciously associated with it.

Perhaps there is a psychological transformation into that of a sensor through certain knowledge. I have been an inbetweener of intuition and sensing for a while and now besides when I am online I am pretty much a sensor. Extraversion is growing, thinking is enhanced to a higher efficiency, and percieving is transforming into judging since I no longer see meaning in things. I just see it as it is.

Am I now an ESTJ? Perhaps I have changed as a caterpillar becomes a butterfly. Taking in experiences, turning them into knowledge, meditating with that knowledge, and building my psyche into a much stronger and more stable one.

 

[SpaceYeti]

My goal here is to drag you all into the present moment. Free from your psychological fears. Free from influence. Free from expectation. Free from shame. Free from depression. Free from worry. Free from confusion. Free from hesitation. Free from competition. Free from false happinesses like pride and vengeance. Free from self-consciousness. Free from anxiety. Free from disappointment. Free from feeling like you don't belong. Free from cowardice. Free to be yourself.

Free at last.

I don't consider lacking those things to be "freedom" from them. I consider it missing out on the human experience, missing out on living life.

 

[Milo]

That's probably true. The pursuit of enlightenment itself is wildly impractical, especially according to any worldly criterion. Spirituality is, or should be, a thing apart from survival concerns and economic advancement. Anyway, the ultimate purpose of meditation, which few monks acknowledge or realize, is to redefine ego-mind's subordinate position to Reality. The idea is to still the chattering ego-mind's moment to moment myth making. What happens then? Try it and find out. I'm not hawking anything. That's just my view. And @Milo you're never going to convince SpaceYeti or redbaron. Just give it up. Edit: I've said it before: the hardest battle is against those who fully buy into ego-mind. They see no use for spirituality. Things feel basically OK to them. It takes a few roundhouses to the face to want a change. Is any one person better than another, though? I wouldn't say so, but there is a qualitative distinction.

You're right.

@redbaron @SpaceYeti

When you get to a point in your life when you are quite miserable and have a quite depressing look on existence, you will have the urge to find the answers to life. I'm guessing a mid-life crisis or identity crisis will be the triggers if you ever do have one. You have to be looking for the answer to see it I suppose.

And @redbaron, your last post asked a lot of the things I have already addressed if you are wondering.

 

[Black Rose]

@Milo, If you are enlightened then do you still know the physical presence that arise in your body or are you "the observer" aware of more? How do you span the diffidence between finitude and eternal now?

 

[SpaceYeti]

When you get to a point in your life when you are quite miserable and have a quite depressing look on existence, you will have the urge to find the answers to life. I'm guessing a mid-life crisis or identity crisis will be the triggers if you ever do have one. You have to be looking for the answer to see it I suppose.

I don't have the question to life such that I might seek it's answer. It's not like life is complicated. Wake up, eat, shit, work, play, go back to bed. I already know how to do all of those things, and I'm even pretty good at a few of them.

 

[redbaron]

When you get to a point in your life when you are quite miserable and have a quite depressing look on existence, you will have the urge to find the answers to life.

'She or he assumes that she or he is superior when she or he is not, and this false success compensates her or him for the state of inferiority which she or he cannot bear.'

Living in delusion to cope with misery is pretty sad. I guess it probably makes you feel secure and stable to believe you're enlightened and walking the, 'right' path. Like you're getting further away from experiencing profound misery.

Seems to me like that's the opposite of enlightened, to hold fantasy about achieving a state where no problems can affect you so that you can run away and avoid them all.

Oh well, I hope for the sake of your sanity you can let go of the delusion sooner rather than later - or that you can keep up the delusion for the rest of your life.

 

[Kuu]

Don't let other people tell you what to do and don't let your fear (guilt, shame, worry) control you either.

Seems like your words and your actions are contradictory, mate. Maybe you're free from cognitive dissonance too.

My goal here is to drag you all into the present moment. Free from your psychological fears. Free from influence. Free from expectation. Free from shame. Free from depression. Free from worry. Free from confusion. Free from hesitation. Free from competition. Free from false happinesses like pride and vengeance. Free from self-consciousness. Free from anxiety. Free from disappointment. Free from feeling like you don't belong. Free from cowardice. Free to be yourself.

Free at last.

I'm still not free from this drivel...

 

[Lyra]

Everyone on this site is already absorbed in it. I am trying to bring everyone to the edge of knowledge so they may see that thinking too hard about what they should do with their lives or about what they have been doing with it. The edge of knowledge is when you realize it is pointless to lose yourself in your own head or to identify with anything in reality, which includes your body and mind.

Identifying with your body and mind is a meta-program in the brain that causes one to fear death (the meta-program is of the ego which is connected to the ID which is instinctually afraid of death). The ultimate teaching of this is to allow everyone to stop the constant subconscious fear of death. The body and mind has the instincts to know what it is doing to avoid that from millions of years of evolution. You don't have to perpetuate it to think it is about to die by thinking things that are subconsciously associated with it.

Perhaps there is a psychological transformation into that of a sensor through certain knowledge. I have been an inbetweener of intuition and sensing for a while and now besides when I am online I am pretty much a sensor. Extraversion is growing, thinking is enhanced to a higher efficiency, and percieving is transforming into judging since I no longer see meaning in things. I just see it as it is.

Am I now an ESTJ? Perhaps I have changed as a caterpillar becomes a butterfly. Taking in experiences, turning them into knowledge, meditating with that knowledge, and building my psyche into a much stronger and more stable one.

Goddamn I fucking hate INFJs.

It's been a long time since I read this much straight-faced milquetoast bullshit.

 

[Milo]

@Milo, If you are enlightened then do you still know the physical presence that arise in your body or are you "the observer" aware of more? How do you span the diffidence between finitude and eternal now?

I am not sure what you mean by your first question. I suppose more like "the observer" because I do not identify with the body, but I do recognize that it is my vessel and that I require it for awareness. Make no mistake that enlightenment requires understanding of things you can know about.

For your second question, I am even more unsure of what you mean. Are you asking how I can prove that only the present exists? If that is it, then I can tell you that everything that exists is just moving around from place to place. We humans have invented the concept of time to be able to measure speed, velocity, and acceleration to then figure out distances. I'm sure the concept of time was invented a little after math and its applicability was discovered.

Chain of thoughts to help you stop identifying with your body and/or mind.

I exist
I am only aware of my existence when I have this exact brain?
My brain changes
I exist through this
Or perhaps only through memory "I" exist
Without memory "I" don't exist
"I" is an illusion of my memory
"I" don't exist
I am merely consciousness
The past only exists as a memory
The future only exists as an infinite amount of possibilities
Therefore, the present is all that exists
I can only experience things in the present
Why think about the future?
Avoiding future pain? Missing out on "the good things in life?"
How can I avoid future pain?
I can't possibly know the future because there are too many possibilities.
I can only deal with issues that I actually am aware of and know are real like how much money I have and how much I need to get what I need.
What are "the good things in life?"
What do I want?
I want to be happy
What will make me happy?
A lot of sex, a yacht, to travel the world, family, fame, money, to help others, security, confidence, love.
(Creates the expectation that these things will make him/her happy)
(Whenever he/she gets these things, he/she is only happy for a while until it is lost)
(He/she now has identified with these things and requires them to be happy)
(After a while he/she realizes this and turns to more introspection. This time for knowledge/a clear answer)
(Learns many psychological aspects of him/herself)
(Finally, he/she comes to a point when he/she realizes he/she knows nothing about reality)
(He/she then realizes that he/she can only know about him/herself)
(He/she then reverts back to the same train of thought, but this time he/she now knows that he/she can only deal with things in his/her present awareness)

I exist.
I am only aware of my existence when I have this exact brain?
My brain changes.
I exist through this.
Or perhaps only through memory "I" exist.
Without memory I wouldn't be aware of "me."
"I" is an illusion of my memory.
"I" don't exist.
I am merely consciousness.
The past only exists as a memory.
The future only exists as an infinite amount of possibilities that I have no knowledge of.
Therefore, the present is all that exists
What about the present outside of my awareness? Does that exist?
I can't know anything about the present outside of my awareness.
I can only experience things in the present that I am aware of.
Nothing else pertains to me because I can do nothing about it since I am unaware of it.
I can go out and become aware of it.
Will that benefit me in some way?
Wait... I can't know that either.
But I can learn things.
The more I learn from experience, the more choices/opportunities I will have because of my acquired skills and "knowledge" about reality (Really just true beliefs).
Though... I must have faith that this isn't the matrix and that they won't change physics on me. But, that is a logical leap to make based on what I've experienced so far. And if they change it, I'll deal with it then.
More "knowledge" = more freedom
More freedom to use each present moment means I can make better, more enjoyable choices.
Wait, so even if the "future" is just a bunch of possibilities, I can have more and more control over the present moments as they come by just "knowing" more about reality.
Knowledge is power.
The power to do whatever I want whenever I crave it.
If I knew what I wanted, I would know what to learn.
Well I have my bodily needs such as food, water, sleep, sex, and excretion
So I'll need a job that pays enough for that, not that much money though. I could probably live pretty cheap.
Who needs a man/women for sex. I could just masturbate if I need to.
Now that I think about it, these things are all I ever want.
But sometimes I get bored.
What should I do with all this extra time?
I can do anything!
I'll do what I want when I want because the present is all I am aware of and can know for sure anyway
I should probably avoid violence because that could bring pain back to me.
I should probably not break the law, well at least not get caught but maybe jail would be a good experience? No, maybe not. That's a huge commitment.
Speaking of commitment. Maybe I shouldn't commit to anything unless I have to or am really up for it or if it somehow doesn't actually restrict any freedom.
Anything that would probably restrict my freedom. Don't do it.


Hmm so now I must make note of the important things in my thinking so I don't have to think again.

Get and secure all of what my bodily needs require.
Don't commit to anything that restricts freedom.
Don't break the law.
Don't make people angry at me.

Wait, now I'm identifying with freedom

Just secure the things that my body needs and do what my body urges me to do.
Let my conscience take over my actions.

Don't think or plan anymore.

And so they named this higher power which urges your body and your conscience the ideal self which they called God. They then wrote the bible explaining the beginning when Adam and Eve ate the fruit of knowledge then the rest of the book became really confusing and I stopped trying to interpret it. The End.

P.S. I'm sure that at some point in the writing of the bible someone thought this god was some external thing and then wrote about worshiping him mixing this with the norms of discriminating against women and all that stuff that offends everyone.

 

[SpaceYeti]

Chain of thoughts to help you stop identifying with your body and/or mind.

Wise Old Man; Child, you must learn not to associate with your own self in order to attain enlightenment.
30 Year-Old Man; Um... what?
Wise Old Man; You are absorbed in yourself, and thus lost. Detach from desire, want, need, and identity to see the light.
30 Year Old-Man; People consider you wise because you say things that sound deep, but are actually just bull shit, huh?
Wise Old Man; It is not for one to judge, but for one to simply be.
30 Year-Old Man; Ever watch Mystery Men?
Wise Old Man; Child, I do not waste my time with television. There are more important matters at hand, such as astral projection.
30 Year-Old Man; Well, watch it. The old wise man in that movie. That's you. Thank you for your deepities, but I can make up my own nonsense in my spare time. I was looking for answers, not empty sophistry. Come back and find me when you have something worth saying.

 

[Milo]

Wise Old Man; Child, you must learn not to associate with your own self in order to attain enlightenment.
30 Year-Old Man; Um... what?
Wise Old Man; You are absorbed in yourself, and thus lost. Detach from desire, want, need, and identity to see the light.
30 Year Old-Man; People consider you wise because you say things that sound deep, but are actually just bull shit, huh?
Wise Old Man; It is not for one to judge, but for one to simply be.
30 Year-Old Man; Ever watch Mystery Men?
Wise Old Man; Child, I do not waste my time with television. There are more important matters at hand, such as astral projection.
30 Year-Old Man; Well, watch it. The old wise man in that movie. That's you. Thank you for your deepities, but I can make up my own nonsense in my spare time. I was looking for answers, not empty sophistry. Come back and find me when you have something worth saying.

I'm 21.

 

[SpaceYeti]

It's hyperbole.

 

[snafupants]

Thank you for your deepities, but I can make up my own nonsense in my spare time. I was looking for answers, not empty sophistry. Come back and find me when you have something worth saying.

Jesus or Buddha could be impugned the same way, and probably were.

 

[SpaceYeti]

Jesus or Buddha could be impugned the same way, and probably were.

They definitely could, and I wouldn't blame the guy who did it.

 

[snafupants]

They definitely could, and I wouldn't blame the guy who did it.

I know you wouldn't but that doesn't make Buddha wrong. It makes you skeptical.

 

[SpaceYeti]

I know you wouldn't but that doesn't make Buddha wrong. It makes you skeptical.

Fair enough, but the fact remains that spouting out nonsense doesn't make you enlightened or wise. Claiming enlightenment requires the same evidence any other claim would require, and nonsense is certainly not evidence.

 

[Milo]

Fair enough, but the fact remains that spouting out nonsense doesn't make you enlightened or wise. Claiming enlightenment requires the same evidence any other claim would require, and nonsense is certainly not evidence.

Tell me, how does one prove the state of being that one is in?