INTP vs INTP

[Pride]

Dear fellow INTPs,

I was recently given an infraction on another forum I frequent. The infraction itself doesn't bother me so much - what annoyed me was the following conversation I had with the moderator in question who is, apparently, also an INTP.

I tried to appeal to what I perceive as a typical NTP-core of mutual understanding - of trying to open with honesty, as much as possible despite any biases we may have regarding each other. My tone was cordial, perhaps a bit sarcastic, but my questions were honest. Perhaps they were trite at the same time, but they were not meant to deceive.

So my question to you is, give me an external, more objective answer in response to what actually transpired. I was curious at first, actually - I thought her behavior strange. The infraction, I could really care less about. I've had friends on other forums give me infractions because I deserved them, not because they disliked me, but I felt this was personal on one level or another. Perhaps my responses made it so? If you think this is the case, let me know.

I am trying to analyze what transpired as a way to improve my ability to introspect and remain honest with myself. I tried to separate emotion and logic, like always, in the beginning, and attempted to converse with her on a cordial, if not a bit stressful manner, because I had no reason to dislike her but her responses I felt were... so emotionally charged that I was affected to respond in kind. But perhaps she is right? Am I being dishonest here? Was I projecting my inferior Fe onto her in an attempt to get her to understand my position and agree with me? Let's dissect this:

Spoiler

Dear Pride,

You have received an infraction at PersonalityCafe.

Reason: Inappropriate Language
-------
Your consistent trolling, mocking, harassing, and poking at members of the forum needs to stop. You mentioned in one thread that its a more friendly place than some other forums, well it is because its moderated well to keep people from abusing our members. So stop.
-------

This infraction is worth 1 point(s) and may result in restricted access until it expires. Serious infractions will never expire.

Original Post:
Passions/Interests
Let's see... work... making organizational spreadsheets to make work more efficient... making schedules to make time to make organizational spreadsheets for work...

Oh, and making citizen arrests on children who J-walk. This is my absolute favorite.
All the best,
PersonalityCafe

Spoiler

It was a joke directed at ISTJ stereotype. Since apparently they had another thread designated for members to act as their type's stereotype.

I post in the ISTJ subforum periodically and I rather like it there and don't see them at all in a negative light.

I'm a bit disappointed if you think this joke is over-the-top and offensive.

-Pride

Spoiler

I have had to delete at least four of your posts for rattling cages here. You can be disappointed all you want, but keep this attitude up and I will ban you.

Spoiler

Which posts are those? Now I want to know.

-Pride

Spoiler

The ones where you -very- deliberately poked at members to get a reaction. You know exactly what you are doing, and I am not a McDonalds employee who has to take a load from someone. I am telling you to stop rattling cages. You can choose to do this, or you can deal with the consequences.

Spoiler

Are you accusing me of sarcasm now? What I asked was completely serious. I want to know exactly which posts were deleted because I can't think of a particular example.

I'm thinking very hard here for examples.

Clearly the ones that still exist do so because they haven't been deleted yet so...

Whose cages did I rattle? Very rarely do I go out of my way to make personal attacks and will only do so if they're acting the same towards me. It's not SLY of all people complaining, is it? To be honestly I don't even remember half the things I write.

Is it within the INTP subforum? Or is elsewhere? In another subforum? Maybe NFs and SFs are the ones reacting negatively? You see, you make accusations - and I know partly what you are talking about - but there are facts and details which are missing. Yes, I know what to *do* generally speaking to alleviate these kinds of problems, but this doesn't necessarily help possible future issues from occurring.

I am both intrigued and confused by this development because while I do use sarcastic and sometimes dark humor it is mostly lighthearted, at least to myself. If others don't see this way, then please let me know who is getting offended so I know to avoid them? You know, since that would help to alleviate the problem.

If it's similar to what I just posted in the ISTJ thread about passions then well, what can I do. I haven't actually considered the feelings of other people, you know. And honestly I would not have done that if it wasn't the haven of ISTJs - people who, in my experience, are not irrational and emotionally fragile - who can understand the nuances of sarcasm. Perhaps I was wrong and if so, it is my mistake.

But what I'm truly curious about is whether I'm actually offending anyone else or whether if I'm just offending you, because there is quite the difference. You also make it sound like as if I'm incapable of having thoughtful conversation or being helpful towards people on here which I have done on many occasions already.

-Pride

Spoiler

"You also make it sound like as if I'm incapable of having thoughtful conversation or being helpful towards people on here which I have done on many occasions already."

Then do those things instead of poke at people. Its simple.

Spoiler

You are interesting. You're placing a lot of value in arbitrary rules of interpersonal conduct and getting offended as such by perceived injustices. I haven't seen such behavior from any INTP I've spoken to yet. Please do not take this as me trying to rile you up. I am speaking with honest curiosity.

-Pride

Spoiler

If you weren't intending to -try- to rile me, then you would have backspaced your condescending accusation that my type isn't correct as soon as you realized that it could come off as condescending.

You certainly aren't helping your case at all here. Like I said, you know -precisely- what you are doing. I advise you stop it.

Spoiler

What could come off as condescending does not necessitate condemnation. You are making a strawman attack on me and my nonexistent attempt to "rile you up."

Why can't I ask honest questions to you? So far I've had zero complaints about my infraction - all of my points and questions were directed to the causation regarding the infraction.

Then I asked you about your personal stance because I found it curious, different. It is contradictory to normative INTP behavior that I have witnessed. Saying that you're not acting like archetypal INTPs is not an attack or an accusation that you're somehow the wrong type. That is for you to decide, not me. I barely know you. Certainly I have acted far different than "archetypal" INTPs on many occasions as well.

But that's the problem, isn't it? What I wrote could be interpreted as condescending when in fact even if I say it is not, you already have an internal bias against me causing you to judge my question as probabilistically biased toward being condescending than not... fuck, I feel like I'm just going on a huge rant here.

Are you condemning people now for the possibility of a condescending remark? Is that the basis of what you consider "right" or "wrong?"

I was trying to have a lighthearted conversation with you but you responded by accusing me of intellectual dishonesty.

-Pride

Spoiler

I really don't have anything to say that I haven't already said about your behaviour.

Spoiler

I shall graciously bow out, madam Promethea. I hope you don't hate me too much for my condescending attitude toward others because they certainly were not meant for you, if it makes you feel any better.

-Pride

Spoiler

"Feel" any better. Heh. You're the one thats trying to feel better here by taking shots at people. I hope its working. ; )

Spoiler

What else am I suppose to say? I hope you think better? Linguistically, it sounds ugly. And you know very well it's a figure of speech. It doesn't make me feel better or worse, sarcasm is just how I humor myself. I'm not going to make excuses for myself and I'm certainly not going to apologize to you either, for being indifferent to how others may feel.

-Pride

Spoiler

You are trying to be subjective and personal, and project that onto me, when I am simply trying to get you to behave on a forum in order to stop pissing off the members here. I really don't see why you fell down this rabbit-hole of subjective emotional nonsense that you are trying to apply to this situation.

And please stop PMing me now. My inbox was already cluttered. I don't think we are getting anywhere.

 

[NO_ARM_NINJA]

Well, i don't see you as "in the wrong" or "dishonest" during any point in this conversation, nor do I see your infraction as anything even remotely punishable.
But in my opinion this person really doesn't seem like an INTP, considering her presumptuous, biased nature, but lets not get into that, in my opinion she seems to be on some sort of power trip due to her moderator status, which could be what led to her blatantly saying "I KNOW what you're up to" and it all seems a little paranoid. I also find it interesting how she just "shut down" when asked for examples/proof of her statements, instead diverting the question to you with something like "you know what examples im talking about".

But maybe she finds that this is a trait that she exhibits and shows disdain toward you for remarking negatively toward it (in her opinion) and in the case she may not actually be an INTP (she responded negatively when it was brought under scrutiny) instead some other personality type that may get hot headed in situations where they are given power? ISFJ?
thats all I can think of at the moment

 

[Trebuchet]

I am sure you didn't mean it that way, but you did come across as somewhat sarcastic and condescending, even if it was honest. "I shall graciously bow out" really is an annoying thing to say. It claims the moral high ground of yielding the last word, while actually claiming it. It is supposed to end an argument without conceding. And unless "Madam" is part of her usual handle, calling her "Madam" comes across as an affectation of grandeur. I know, I like playing with words and claiming the moral high ground, too, but such a reaction was predictable.

Moreover, it was clear that she didn't intend for you to win this battle, but you kept angling for her to say you were right and she just didn't see how honest you were, or something. If you weren't trying to get her to back away from the argument, then you would have done so yourself. So she kept up the fight. It may or may not have been personal, but I didn't think it sounded personal, just a bit frustrated.

As for her being an INTP, I have no idea if she is, but accusing an INTP (or anyone, probably) of having an "internal bias" against you that interferes with her judgment is quite insulting. I'd be hacked off if you said that to me.

Why didn't you just say, early on, that you were sorry for offending and would try not to do so again, but it would be helpful if she could point you toward the offending posts? From the little you posted, I didn't see anything all that offensive, but context matters, too, and I don't have that.

I completely believe you that you were trying to reach out and be honest. It just didn't come across as you hoped. That happens, and it sucks when it does. I hope you can stop fretting about it soon.

 

[Execution Commentary]

Yeah, definite power trip. The moderator could have at least given you a direct reference to one of your posts. Ironic that the moderator claims you are assigning your characteristics to his/her replies when in fact the opposite was true! And I agree with NO_ARM_NINJA. This behavior is typical of ISFJs.

 

[Pride]

I want to thank everyone for their responses, especially Trebuchet for giving me another perspective to consider. Honestly I didn't want this to devolve into anything personal but when I asked the initial question for her to give me specific examples of my posts that were deleted and she refused and responded with an indirect "you - know - what I'm talking about," I was confused and a bit disoriented. Because the truth is I don't know, not for certain. The posts that I think ought to have caused issues - they are still there!! And the posts that are gone? Well, I don't even remember half the stuff I post so, I really don't have any clue either!!!


-Execution/Ninja - if ISFJs are all like this then... I would like to stay away from them if possible. My ISTJ friend/room mate and I get along quite well despite our differences, but it took a while to adjust to each other's peculiarities. Even now we have tense moments and we need time along from each other in order to not go crazy.

But the thing I like about ISTJ is that they are still logical - they may not see all of the interrelated facts and positions, but if you present a perfectly logical and irrefutable argument they typically have the candor to admit defeat. That is one good thing we both rely on - Thinking function.

However I can't imagine what is basically an ISTJ that uses feeling/emotions instead... such a terrifying thought, heh.

 

[Fukyo]

Her tone is impatiently edgy and defensive from the get go. She def. does not like you. You were condescending to her, but given her tone toward you it's (only mildly) excusable.

However given the lack of context, her annoyance at you may be completely justified. You did overstep her bounds in the communication though, as she was clearly defining a line from the begging, and you succeeded in provoking her further.

 

[Pride]

I've talked to her a total of once prior to the conversation. That is all the context I have. Maybe I offended a friend of hers? If so, I have no idea. This is purely conjecture.

I don't think it is like an INTP to withhold information, especially when asked for further explanation by another INTP. We understand what it's like to not know. Unless I really hate someone and want to fuck with them by withholding information, I don't see any problem with disclosing it. Disclosing information does not mean I have to like that person...

 

[Aphasia]

You probably meant well, but since it can be hard to detect someone's intended tone of speech in the internet, you may have come off as a troll. The 3rd to 7th comments sound pretty sarcastic and can easily be read as insults. Seriously, saying that you don't think she is an INTP and implying that if you aren't, you are inferior (among other things) does not lead to pleasantness. Her second post was excessive though.

If she thought you were a troll or being deliberately annoying, she obviously wouldn't give you names. I'm not clear on her 3rd post. She may not have been honest, or she herself can't remember what she deleted, or she thought you weren't worth the time to search for them.

Overall impression: Someone feeling touchy provoked by statements which could probably have been worded better.

EDIT: 500th post, in which I sound like a busybody...

 

[Midas]

I agree with Aphasia, because of my lack of background knowledge on the comments involved I will simply say that she was overly touchy and temperamental. However she also refused to give evidence for your banning which is difficult to justify. Your latter comments do assume the morale high ground (correct or not) which provoked her further. This provocation may have caused her stubborn resistance in regards to the evidence.

PS: If you tick me off, i'll let you know
PSS: Aphasia, you have my eternal respect for posting tomorrow, today.

 

[Jennywocky]

Hey Pride!

I'm going to read all the comments you shared here and get back to you on it, but I'll remind you that the forum we're discussing here (because I'm pretty sure I know the forum you mean, and I'm even pretty sure of the identity of the moderator you're not naming) is probably one of the most strict type forums in this cluster I've been to. They are very quick to crack down on anything that smacks of typism, racism, sexist, genderism, ageism, etc. That's just the forum culture and FAQ.

So I don't see your comment as a problem here or on some of the other type forums, but THAT forum, you'll need to scrub what you say a little better. They just don't tolerate it. I still think there's a lot of great conversations there, interestingly, despite how stringent their enforcement is... or is that because of the stringent enforcement? Not sure, but I go there most to post nowadays. *shrug*

PS. Oh look, you went ahead and mentioned her name in one of her spoilers. Not nice, dude. You know a lot of people wander among all these forums, right? Word will spread (not from me, though) that you were posting PMs publicly on another site, with names attached; that's not going to go over well.


EDIT: Well, after skimming the exchange, I can see both sides. (Like that was unexpected!)

I'll start by saying it sounds like you're sincere and just being you, so it's not like you're purposefully trying to cause problems or be a jerk. There are different types of disciplinary issues on forums, and you're not in the group of people who are purposefully trying to "bring down the house" so to speak, as far as I can tell. But she seemed to become very agitated very quickly with the conversation, and I can see why that made you dig in. I also see where you might have gone with things, and how abrasive you could have been, but chose not to; again, points in your favor. It shows good intent, at least.

But here's my thoughts on the other end of things (and I mean, I've been doing the mod thing for almost five years elsewhere, so I know where she's coming from, god help me. )

You have to remember she typically is putting up with LOTS of conversations like this from various members, not just you; modding ends up feeling like babysitting, and either you DON'T intervene and you get complaints from some members, or you DO intervene and then the culprit starts a long laborious justification of why he or she shouldn't be disciplined for what they did, etc. It gets old. I can hear the frustration in her tone, and if you think she isn't having any patience with you, I would guess that reality of modding is factoring in greatly. I'm basically going to get out of the modding business because it has burned me out at this point; I find my patience is very thin and I just have a lot of trouble tolerating the typical back-and-forth I receive from members who are never satisfied with any decision that is made. I constantly have to bite my tongue. Maybe some of that burn-out is playing into things here.

Also, I've had members try to jerk me around before. These members have been talked to previously, are behaving in ways that stir up reactions on the forum and it all seems pretty transparent, and then when they finally get an infraction for something after this pattern of abrasive behavior, they suddenly want it all spelled out for them again and demand that I invest even more time in their case than I already have. Remember, mods don't get paid; it's volunteer work, and often a headache, but people do it to serve.

At this point, I guess I do have to ask if you have had other contact with mod staff, either formally or informally (and with her or with another mod), about the behavior she is referring to, before this incident. If you have been talked to before, then I can understand her frustration more easily. If you have not been talked to by anyone or infracted for something else, then I think they needed to provide you with more explanation.

If I had any advice for you on the matter, instead of getting into those laborious long explanations where you debate points with a mod who has disciplined you, I would just keep it short and to the point. In this case, since you claim not to have meant it, I would have reduced it to, "I'm sorry, I was joking around, and I didn't realize I would be infracted for it. I will avoid these kinds of jests in the future, or be more clear that I am joking. I didn't mean to disturb the forum."

I have to tell you, at least for me, when a member says something like that in response to an infraction I didn't even want to have to give but felt I had to, in order to keep things from getting worse, my tone softens greatly and I'm much more sympathetic to what they have to tell me. I also perceive that they're capable of seeing multiple sides, so then I trust what they say more as well.

The mod in question and I are different in some ways even if not in others, so she might not have the same reaction as I would. But I would recommend not bring criticizing someone's type into a disciplinary discussion; it's not just a side point (from a rational perspective), but it's a personal attack of sorts... you're basically saying her view isn't valid because she doesn't conform to what you think she should be. It also doesn't give her any room to move; now she either has to take the high ground and ignore you while letting you think incorrectly of her, or she has to waste more energy defending herself; and the situation is already stressful. Whether you are right or wrong, it's not a great move if you want to come to a consensus... and the reality is that you really don't have any power there, she does.

 

[Pride]

Hi Jenny - thanks for the reply. I understand your point very clearly and there are some things which I haven't considered before such as the position of having to deal with a multitude of people - and smartasses.

In regards to posting the PMs publicly or even referring to her name - I did not try to reveal it as some sort of hidden secret. The PMs are exactly as they are. I could have edited out the name but... well, I don't want to make excuses for myself and nobody has to agree with my methods but how should I say... that cyberspace is like a haven for my mind?

I'm sure many other INTPs would agree that we deal, on a daily basis, with the absurd, unwritten rules of social conduct and protocol, or what is deemed correct and incorrect, provocative and kind, hateful and caring.

In a way, completely ignoring these kinds of things in cyberspace is what helps keep my sanity. Maybe I'm vain but... I'll take the consequences, which I've deemed to be on almost zero consequence to my long term happiness, if they come my way. I don't have much of a vested interest anywhere but if I may say so, the altercation put forth earlier has already given me a rather sour taste in my mouth and makes me loath to really contribute much further to that place.

Perhaps this is my Fe exploding and talking but I shall say... I am disgusted by a crackdown on wit, but not on stupidity. And an INTP that is biased against such? The thought alone sickens me.

It feels stifling.

 

[Enne]

It sounds like she has already decided how she's going to view you, and you are engaged in the relatively pointless process of attempting to present yourself as well, yourself.

The problem with forum moderating is that when these two differ too greatly, you end up being "profiled" permanently as an instigator. If a forum is prone to trolls or has especially just recovered from malicious members, then you'll never get the benefit of a doubt. I see where you're coming from, though. One advantage of online interactions is that you can relax and just state your stances / ideas on things without having to adhere to the comfort levels of one person or to the flow of a conversation. However, it seems like the standard limitations that trap humor once it gets written down have gotten you into trouble. Why not lessen your posting there, or keep it to PMs when you want to mess around.

 

[pjoa09]

All I see is you taking the opportunity to talk with a moderator after you allegedly were dicking around in a forum.

I see no attempt to resolve the issue or any attempt to correct your behavior. (but then again.. there's not too much to work with)

I think she gave in a little with that ""?

The more important point is that you wanted to talk more and she wanted you to be a polite member of the forum whereas you were 'poking' other members.

I'll give you that her standards are quite unreasonable if that was an offense. But the PM was just lots of small talk with no attempt at resolution.

 

[Pride]

Unfortunately we are not ISTJs who will be a good little boy in the corner.

Seems like my definition of trolling and theirs is quite different.

 

[Jennywocky]

Hi Jenny - thanks for the reply. I understand your point very clearly and there are some things which I haven't considered before such as the position of having to deal with a multitude of people - and smartasses.

Yeah. I thought it would help just to hear a bit of a "day in the life of," simply to get a rounded perspective. Not that things couldn't have been handled better on both sides in the discussion, there is always room for improvement.

BTW, I'm on Day #2 of my Emancipation from Modding. Woo-hoo! I feel like the Genie in Aladdin:

Genie: I'm free. I'm free. Quick. Quick, wish for something outrageous. Say, "I-I want the Nile." Wish for the Nile. Try that.
Aladdin: Uh, I wish for the Nile.
Genie: NO WAY!!!
[laughs]
Genie: Oh, does that feels good!

I can watch people bicker all the time now and I'm not obligated to mediate it. woo-hooey-hoo!

In regards to posting the PMs publicly or even referring to her name - I did not try to reveal it as some sort of hidden secret. The PMs are exactly as they are. I could have edited out the name but... well, I don't want to make excuses for myself and nobody has to agree with my methods but how should I say... that cyberspace is like a haven for my mind?...I'll take the consequences, which I've deemed to be on almost zero consequence to my long term happiness...

I'm actually fine with that. I just wanted to point out it was in there, in case you didn't mean to and didn't want to deal with potential fallout.

Perhaps this is my Fe exploding and talking but I shall say... I am disgusted by a crackdown on wit, but not on stupidity. And an INTP that is biased against such? The thought alone sickens me. It feels stifling.

Well, she's not a simplistic INTP, she's pretty complex... just as I am. (Neither one of us fit the traditional standard -- we each seem to have another whole side that is not included in the normal description.) But she's one of those occasional people I can't see into either, so I don't have much more insight on it. I'd just encourage you to keep Ne'ing it and brainstorming possibilities -- get as much varied perspective on situations like this as possible, since you're trying to understand reasoning and motivation.

 

[Pride]

Jenny, congrats on your newfound freedom.

I've always held the position of never wanting to be told what to do and never wanting to tell others what to do.

 

[Jennywocky]

I've always held the position of never wanting to be told what to do and never wanting to tell others what to do.

Yup, sounds familiar: I enjoyed being in a position to help people and provide answers, and I also enjoyed working on the tech to improve the forum experience. And I'm a good mediator because I see both sides and have built up my social skills to know how to interact with someone without setting their hackles off... but I really hate telling people what to do. It was also hard being in a committee-type scenario where differing viewpoints could prevent quick and coherent action from being taken when necessary.

Let's face it, I don't have a Directive bone in my body; I'm Informative, and I like to give people information so they can make better decisions about their own lives, and that's about as far as it goes....

 

[pjoa09]

Unfortunately we are not ISTJs who will be a good little boy in the corner.

Seems like my definition of trolling and theirs is quite different.

Please consider not being so rigid with your stance. There is an ISTJ around here too that isn't a Nazi.

It's just different thresholds of acceptance of authority. I am pretty sure many ISTJs are defiant of authority. I think. The point is that trolling (or just being casual) and personality types have no correlation , IMO.

 

[Artsu Tharaz]

I dunno man, pretty sure the mod was the cool-headed one there.

 

[Execution Commentary]

I'm sure many other INTPs would agree that we deal, on a daily basis, with the absurd, unwritten rules of social conduct and protocol, or what is deemed correct and incorrect, provocative and kind, hateful and caring.

In a way, completely ignoring these kinds of things in cyberspace is what helps keep my sanity. Maybe I'm vain but... I'll take the consequences, which I've deemed to be on almost zero consequence to my long term happiness, if they come my way. I don't have much of a vested interest anywhere but if I may say so, the altercation put forth earlier has already given me a rather sour taste in my mouth and makes me loath to really contribute much further to that place.

Perhaps this is my Fe exploding and talking but I shall say... I am disgusted by a crackdown on wit, but not on stupidity. And an INTP that is biased against such? The thought alone sickens me.

It feels stifling.

I have only been on 2 forums before the INTPForum, and I left both because they were far too stringently moderated, at least in my opinion. I never did anything that was banned in the forum rules, but the environment just felt too stifling, just as you said. The Thought Police were very strong there. So I'm hoping that this forum is different, since it is for INTPs anyway. So far so good...

 

[Pride]

Please consider not being so rigid with your stance. There is an ISTJ around here too that isn't a Nazi.

It's just different thresholds of acceptance of authority. I am pretty sure many ISTJs are defiant of authority. I think. The point is that trolling (or just being casual) and personality types have no correlation , IMO.

An extremely dry "joke." I like ISTJs, mostly. One of my best friends is one and they seem to understand my "dry" humour.

They are actually, in my experience, easier to get along with than INTJs... they may be more insufferable if you cannot agree on something (if you live together, for example), but they are... usually also less arrogant (they are arrogant, but in a different way than INTJs and the NT vs. NT clash that arises, especially when it's an E/I switch in the case of NTJ vs NTP).

I have only been on 2 forums before the INTPForum, and I left both because they were far too stringently moderated, at least in my opinion. I never did anything that was banned in the forum rules, but the environment just felt too stifling, just as you said. The Thought Police were very strong there. So I'm hoping that this forum is different, since it is for INTPs anyway. So far so good...

Stifling is how I would describe many places. They cater to feelers and not just feelers, but worse - emotional wretches. Sarcasm, humour and mental slickness is seen as provocative and hurtful to people who are too emotionally fragile and mentally weak to take even the silliest of comments.

If I was the administrator of a forum I would sooner ban the idiot that complains how he is "offended" or how his "feelings are hurt" than someone making a genuinely funny remark that may be dark, morbid, or innately offensive in nature, but is done so with dry wit and intelligence.

 

[Pride]

LOL, I just received another infraction. What a fucking joke of a place. Sarcasm is not appreciated in the slightest.