Violence

[loveofreason]

proposition: Violence is externalised Pain.

...but Pain...psychological pain... = discomfort + Fear.

(physical pain = discomfort +/- alarm?)

Fear is the key tone... Pain, specifically psychological pain belongs to the Fear group of emotions...

so can we essentially say that:

Violence is externalised Fear?

Where does that leave anger?

 

[Ermine]

I think anger fits into the violence equation in that it's inner violence or unrealized violence.

 

[Sapphire Harp]

I think violence is a manner of expression... with much too much variance to simplify like you've done, LoR... I often see violence as an intense form of communication, usually with imparting assertions as the goal... But even that doesn't really catch the scope of things...

I'll try to describe a variety of manifestations...

Defensive violence is often an expression of fear and confusion...

Self violence is an expression of sorrow and depression...

Exaggerated, showy violence is an expression of power, strength,

Retributive violence is an expression of anger, need, or sometimes a cold assertion of authority and power...

Passionate violence is also an expression of anger, fear, or needs...

Casual, debasing violence is an expression of disdain or narcissism... (dare I say an extension of self-aggrandizement?)
​

 

[Artifice Orisit]

Fear is the key tone... Pain, specifically psychological pain belongs to the Fear group of emotions...

Grief and shame have nothing to do with fear, however fear can be caused by the anticipation of them.

The worst pain I know of would be a combination of anger & despair.

 

[loveofreason]

hmm... so many kinds of pain... but is there really no component of fear beneath grief and shame and despair?

I'm asking because I don't really know.


And I see the complexity of motivations you suggest, Sapphire... but yes... I am simplifying... I want to know how simple it can become before it is meaningless and incorrect...

so, again... beneath those motivations are there not deeper more primary motivations that amount to displacement of pain from the invisible interior world to the outer one where one's outrage for one's suffering can be seen...

idle thoughts perhaps, but I'm curious.

 

[NoID10ts]

This is an intriguing question. I think fear is one of our most base instincts so perhaps it is at the core of violence. Fear seems primitive and shared among all species.

Even in SH's list, the underlying element could arguably be fear. Perhaps we self aware beings complicate it with more advanced things like grief, depression, shows of strength, authority, but the driving, subconscious force behind it all could still be fear.

Does this make sense? I'm just making it up as I go as best as a monkey man can.

 

[JoeJoe]

I think another important aspect is shame.

e.g. a father is ashamed, that his son is gay and beats him.

 

[walfin]

Perhaps it is fear->anger->violence. Anger is the "fight" reaction to fear, and violence is the external manifestation of it.

I think another important aspect is shame.

e.g. a father is ashamed, that his son is gay and beats him.

But shame (esp in this case) could be considered to be similar to fear. Fear of society's views, subconscious fear that his genes will not be passed on to another successive generation, etc.

 

[snowqueen]

Anger is an emotional state - strong emotional states are often experienced as a sort of trance state. Violence is an external expression of internal states - I tend to agree with Sapph that anger is not the only driver of violence. I think it's maybe important to think of violence as an action of no return while all the internal states are potentially able to be controlled and not necessarily be manifest into action.

 

[Ghost1986]

violence is simply a physical act done for any of the basic emotions (mad, sad, glad and scared). i know people who will go to bars and fight simply because they like fighting. people in MMA do it because they like the high hey get from being in the ring. thus violence=happiness for them. then you have people like me. i will fight if iam scared. the first thing i do is get out of the way. for me to fight i need to be mad, or see the physical action as being more productive than not taking the action.

violence is simply a negative physical act.

 

[Sapphire Harp]

Even in SH's list, the underlying element could arguably be fear. Perhaps we self aware beings complicate it with more advanced things like grief, depression, shows of strength, authority, but the driving, subconscious force behind it all could still be fear.

Don't get me wrong, I think fear is the driver for a great lot of this, but it doesn't catch it all up... There's a particularly weird manifestation in fear-violence in supporting authority structures.

In the most basic states, the head of a group was the pack leader... the one who could physically dominate the rest of the pack and maintain control by inspiring fear in them - driven by fear of losing his power and position.

Over time, this got more complicated with traditions, social obligations, institutions, codifications, etc... moving into chiefs and kings and dictators and the like. Violence or the threat of is one component which keeps these rulers in control... and once, long ago, this violence was carried out because the ruler was afraid... but now, neither the ruler directing the violence or the agents carrying it out have almost any understanding of that fear. They have an assortment of tools which keep the pressure on their subordinates quite effectively, to the point that being afraid would be quite silly...

Also, I have to wonder how the violence employed by guardians of the social order fits in...? Not the above mentioned violence, but say... police officers have to knock out an unruly drunk on a domestic call... There's something of duty and obligation driving their actions, but is there fear...? Or even any emotion at all?
​

 

[Tyria]

Violence can also be without emotion or sense as well. Some commit violence for the sake of itself. I would say that motivation (or purpose/sense), emotion (or lack of it), and goal are several criteria that you could use to categorize violence.

Violence could also be done in a sort of mimicry. If someone sees enough violent acts long enough, they might be desensitized enough to be able to commit violence in stressful situations. Humans are more prone to the old saying 'monkey see monkey do' than other species.

It also depends on how you want to define violence. Not all violent acts have to be physical in nature... a violent act could be a verbal or emotional attack as well.

 

[Rain]

proposition: Violence is externalised Pain.

...but Pain...psychological pain... = discomfort + Fear.

(physical pain = discomfort +/- alarm?)

Fear is the key tone... Pain, specifically psychological pain belongs to the Fear group of emotions...

so can we essentially say that:

Violence is externalised Fear?

Where does that leave anger?

**externalized
I always thought that, given an extended length of time being tortured, you could delude yourself so well into thinking you were masochistic that the torture would be ineffective. Fear from ignorance, so basically lack of understanding or knowledge, or inability to absorb said knowledge. Violence is just an imperfect label for a group of actions that people assume to have the same motivations.(InMyOpinion). I don't think it is fear, but a good bit of violence is driven by fear, those who are possessive of others and beat/kill them and or beat/kill their associates are afraid of losing said person. Just as an example that is. >_>

 

[loveofreason]

**externalized

We spell proper in the british colonies.

I always thought that, given an extended length of time being tortured, you could delude yourself so well into thinking you were masochistic that the torture would be ineffective.

That's a very interesting proposition, and quike likely I think to be true. Indeed... is there any other way to create a masochist than to continually injure them until the pain becomes the normal state that they embrace? One must first be stripped of any pre-existing normalcy - new-born, for instance... it works so well with the helpless new-born... so dependent on its captors for the very warmth and crust of life...

damn we excel as a society don't we?

Fear from ignorance, so basically lack of understanding or knowledge, or inability to absorb said knowledge. Violence is just an imperfect label for a group of actions that people assume to have the same motivations.(InMyOpinion). I don't think it is fear, but a good bit of violence is driven by fear, those who are possessive of others and beat/kill them and or beat/kill their associates are afraid of losing said person. Just as an example that is. >_>

But what is it that unifies the entire range of behaviours collected in that net called 'violence'? The act of violence is the application of a principle. What is that principle?

 

[Mondorius]

I think violence is 2 things. First is a form of communication, which we use when we lack other ways to express ourselves. This can happen when people are ignoring you or simply not understanding you*. And it is usually triggered by overwhelming emotions.

The other face of violence is a primal reaction to either fear or when you are victim of violence yourself. When we are scared, we either run, freeze or become violent. Being above this usually requires training or some form of conditionning.

*The misunderstanding part can be very broad but I think could be globally defined as differences in values.

 

[ntfbfi]

I believe violence is a product of both environment and psychology. If a person grows up in an environment which is eyes for eyes etc, he would get influenced and might think violence is the only way/best way to solve out a problem when it appears. However, I believe that in order be real violent (fight or kill but not for defence), there has to be psychological factor, you can understand it by saying it is the gene of the family, the animal inside his heart etc. With this factor, every feeling he feels, regardless it is fear, thrill, pain etc can be a trigger to violence.