The Maturity of Functions

[Auburn]

As for seeing peoples' reactions and emotions, if you're on the lookout for that the ability will probably come in a few years or so. I just say this because I've heard that the secondary function doesn't really come into its own until the late teens and early 20s.... and I'm not sure I would have believed it if I weren't there now. Ne seems to open up all sorts of doors and possibilities and skills that just... weren't even an option, or that I had never noticed when I was younger.

I honestly want to know more about this. I too have read that the second function develops around the teens, the third in the twenties and the fourth in the late thirties.

Does the development of our cognitive processes really happen thought the physical expansion of the brain through age, or does it happen thought the practice and exercise of those processes?

I'm left confused as to my current status. I'm left with no way of knowing whether my functions are actually developed, or if sometime in the future I will achieve a eureka moment of maturity where I will see just how underdeveloped they were all along.


P.S. - For anyone who wants to give their honest opinion, please; I want to ask: At what level of development would you consider my functions to be?

I know this may sound quite egotistic, but I really don't mean to sound like that. I just want to hear what other brilliant analyzers have honestly observed that I may be blind to. This way I can know where improvements can be made. Don't be nice, don't hold back.

Thanks...

 

[fullerene]

I mean, you do seem pretty mature to me... but I don't think that's something you can judge from the outside at all. Even if someone's taught to tie abstractions down to concrete examples whenever possible, it doesn't mean they have a mature Si function, for instance. So even if you know how to do it and people on the outside can't tell the difference, there's no telling what's going on in your head.

What I meant when I said that was just that... in the last 2 or 3 years or so, my Ne started getting applied everywhere. I think that's why people have trouble understanding me in the science, faith, & philosophy board... because I have no real concrete anything to tie these loose connections down to so that they make sense to other people (sensing is the "clarity" function, I think). The world just sealed itself into a cohesive whole, as if nothing should be investigated or examined without keeping in mind everything else that you've ever seen or heard. Less of a "well x seems related to y, so I'd better keep x in mind when learning about y" and more of an "I have this new thing y. It relates to x because of [], z because of [], w because of []," etc. I also started finding it much, much more fun to sit around staring off into space and letting my mind wander than going off and doing other things recently.

I've heard it said that Ne sort of diverges, and Ni converges... and I'm pretty sure it was you who posted somewhere that the subconscious versions of the two dominant functions are very strong as well... so maybe it's the other half of intuition that I'm seeing develop. It could also be that I'm physics majoring, and most of my day is spent learning models that fit physical systems... so that could cross over and my mind just got used to using one thing to model another and I'm mistaking the models for relationships.

So (ew, that was turning into a ramble and I wasn't even close to done yet) I'm not fit to judge you on many levels. I could be completely wrong and what I mistook for psychological maturing in myself was just an extension of my schoolwork... in which case I couldn't tell what any function maturity is, much less your particular one. If I'm right about myself then I couldn't tell you because I'm not you, and it's almost entirely internal. In either case, there's no real way I could answer what you're asking.

oh yeah... and the guy who told me the functions mature said that Ne didn't really fall into its own until the mid 20s... so either he could have been a late developer, or else he may not have known what he was talking about with function maturity at all.

 

[Auburn]

*sigh*

I guess it is a rather difficult question to answer...

I've heard it said that Ne sort of diverges, and Ni converges... and I'm pretty sure it was you who posted somewhere that the subconscious versions of the two dominant functions are very strong as well... so maybe it's the other half of intuition that I'm seeing develop.

Yeah, according to the cognitive process test, my top four functions are Ti-Ni-Ne-Te. Upon reading more about each individual function, I've come to realize that I use them more than I think I do. For instance, on a peaceful day, as I go outside and just observe nature, Ni is actively finding deeper symbolic meanings to everything while my Ti just sits back until there's something that needs analysis. In fact, more often than not, when interacting with people, my Ni is hard at work trying to perceive what will happen to them in the future while my Ti waits till after the interaction to analyze the situation.

Also, I've come to suspect that my Ti is not as strong as that of other INTPs - which may explain why many of my posts are spontaneous ideas (Ne) without much logical basis behind them. I'll admit, I've formed a habit of just coming up with ideas, posting them, and letting you guys do the analytical work.

 

[Ermine]

I'm with Auburn. I'd say my Ne manifests more than my Ti at times. Maybe it's because I'm fairly close to being an INTJ. However, my Ti certainly developed first. As a kid, I did almost nothing but analyze everything and everyone. I'd say my Ne started synching with the Ti earlier than normal, probably last couple years in high school. Now I've learned how to be analytical and spontaneous at the same time!

 

[Melkor]

Ahh..I would agree with this idea.

I'm seveteen.
and when I hit fifteen or so,I started to think of myself as a bit of an intellect (I know it sounds terrible right?).
I started debating, writing, became atheist, and develped this strange and incredibly accuarte perception of some aspects of life...

On the downside, I'm now awkward and introverted, whereas beforehand I was not...

I honestly think that if I had bene analysed before I was twelve or so, I woudl have most definately not been an intp...

 

[NoID10ts]

I'm intrigued by this. I'm still new to Mbti. If I understand correctly the functions you are referring to in order are Ti, Ne, Si, Fe. Is this correct (as it realtes to the INTP profile)?

If so, I would say the development of the Ne, for me, began in college. I came to a point where I just analyzed things and wouldn't stop until I felt I was satisfied with my conclusions.

I would say the Si began developing more in my late 20's early 30's and may still be in process. Perhaps my loss of faith was tied to this in some way?

I'm not sure the Fe has really developed to well yet. Extraverted Feeling? Maybe my wife will like me more in about 10 years?

Does this make sense, or am I way off? Like I said, I'm still trying to understand how all this works.

 

[Reverse Transcriptase]

NoI, what did it feel like to have your Si develop? Like... what extra things did you start perceiving?

I'm 21, and I'm pretty sure I have a well developed Ti and an okay Ne. And since I'm in the place, it seems only natural to look out for the Si.

What can I do to grow my Ne?

 

[Auburn]

If anyone would like to know a few practical exercises for developing any of the eight cognitive functions I can write some of the ones I've found in the "Functions of Type" book.

@CJ - Exercises for Developing Extroverted Intuition (Ne)

1- Consider something that you have always wanted but felt was impossible to have. Then consider how to make it possible.

2- Think of new ways to do something routine in your life and try them out. At lest once a day, stop before taking an action and ask yourself if you have considered the alternative action you could take.

3- Watch two people interacting with each other and notice what patterns you see in the way they respond to each other. If you are close enough friends with them, verify your observations.

4- Look at a nonprofessional photograph of a group of people and identify which people are close to each other and which ones are uncomfortable with each other.

5- List all the possibilities you can think of for dealing with parents who do not control their children at a restaurant - do not use ideas you have had in the past; just let yourself go - without evaluating the possibilities, no matter how far-fetched they may seem.

6- Brainstorm about how to improve hygiene in Third World countries. Focus on ideas and write them down out loud as soon as you get them. Don't worry about whether or not you can show connection or how an idea could be implemented. Do not evaluate any idea as worthy or logical.

 

[sagewolf]

Ooh, those suggestions look helpful. I'll write them down later.

I'm 18-- I think my Ne is developing fairly nicely so far. I have spent hours at a stretch just thinking about a story in my head and wondering if it could be better if I changed this or that or the other... I'm quite good at reading people's expressions and tones of voice as well, or inferring a lot from a small gesture. I wonder if I wasn't as interested in writing and art and storytelling, if it would have taken longer to develop. I think it's still developing, but I don't think it's immature anymore either.

 

[Agent Intellect]

at 23 i'd say my Ne is often out of control, but that might have to do with my mind numbing job. my head is so far in the clouds, imagining all these different things i want to do, contemplating theories, having discussions with myself in my head (but maybe i'm just crazy) and thinking about the future, that i often even forget that i'm at work.

 

[fullerene]

er... wasn't it you who said you thought your Ne was stunted and didn't work much about a month ago? Or do I have you confused with someone else?

That's awesome, by the way.

 

[Agent Intellect]

er... wasn't it you who said you thought your Ne was stunted and didn't work much about a month ago? Or do I have you confused with someone else?

That's awesome, by the way.

no, that was me that said it. i think that was more of a misunderstanding of what Ne actually was, though. that, and this site has made my Ne develop faster. i think contact with other ideas besides my own helps a lot.

 

[Sapphire Harp]

Might be I'm a little off topic, not really understanding the functions correctly, but - that said...

As time has gone on, I've had a few intuitive connections appear that were just shocking to me because they were completely unrelated to anything I was thinking about at the time.

The one I recall best is a school-mate that I had a long string of issues with over the course of college. She went out of her way to throw some insult and injury my way, while we also had the occasional connection. It didn't make a lot of sense.

In the middle of my senior year, I was going to sleep, thinking about random, unrelated things, when all of the sudden I understood that I was being attacked because she was afraid of what I might be thinking about her, the possibility I was down judging her as she was trying to enter a profession and needed skills I already had (even though I was on my way to somewhere else.)

I possessed the majority of the clues for something like 9 months before I made the connection - and it rather clarified the relationship, although the damage was mostly all done by then. I think the first realization I had like this was in middle school, when I woke out of sleep understanding most of the nuances of what a date truly was (without having had one.)

Those are the most intense moments of intuition I can think of - and they all came along well after I needed them. I can't think of any clues either way, but hopefully one of the signs of a truly mature intuition function would be to get these kind of realizations -when you need them-.
​

 

[Derada]

Today I saw triangles and thought of snowflakes. Why are they hexagonal?

Now as I type the word "triangles" I think of my school, which is shaped as a right triangle. Both equilateral triangles, which make up hexagons, and right triangles seem to be fundamental somehow. I conclude that it depends on environment. The right triangle is more stable when gravity and a flat surface is present. Equilateral triangles are more stable when inter-shape forces are more significant than a single downward pull.

I have the uncanny ability to spew out intellectual-sounding nonsense rants at about 200 words per minute. This undoubtedly contributes to my freestyle rap skills.

I'm afraid, however, that this process will consume me. I just find it so enjoyable that "stepping outside my comfort zone" is a scary prospect. It's strange.

Ne is such a broadening ability. It takes so many different inputs and intuits them into a pattern that is all conceived of at once, like a religious epiphany. Ironically, my focus on that ability means that I can be simultaneously good and bad at math. I'm not good at organizing my thoughts into a logical sequence.

-----

Okay, shift gears. I think I may have actually developed Ne before Ti. Ti has just... I don't know, it's either always been there, or its harder to remember instances of my using that process.

So when I was about 3, I moved from China to the U.S. and had to learn English. I asked my Dad how to say "water" in English. When he told me, I repeated it several times. Wa. Ter. Wa. Ter. "Wa" in Chinese means "to dig." I immediately had the image of a shovel digging into the dirt in order to create a well.

It still sends shivers down my spine to think that if maybe I hadn't been learning English that day, that maybe if I had gone outside and played with some toys, I might have grown into a completely different person.

 

[Death]

After reading this thread,I've contemplating that INTP's are more aware of their Ne than their Ti. I think I have an developed Ne as well a tiny bit of Ni in myself,when I'm 14 years I remember being obssessed with square (^2) and found few patterns in it.

 

[loveofreason]

Where's Decaf when he's needed?

Doesn't he say that our secondary function is our realm of creativity? It would make sense to be more aware of it. We like it and our Ti is on autopilot anyway. It doesn't need attention.

Perhaps that's^ Ni speaking.

 

[NoID10ts]

We do need Decaf. I'm confused a bit about the third function. I'd like a better description of it. I may be on the verge of a breakthrough in understanding, as it relates to it.

 

[Death]

Perhaps that's^ Ni speaking.

Are you referring to me?

 

[Gorgrim]

I find it really hard to relate to others what I want to say. appearently my teachers don't understand me much. Si helps there? what exactly helps me attain practical-ness and objectify my thoughts on paper?. I think im lacking here the most, together with feeling....

I'd say my intuition works decently, doesnt take many seconds to realise how people may feel after doing something. Maybe the wrong word, or a bad action. I'm comtemplating what people do based on loads of things. What different things mean to dfiferent people, why people show certain thoughts and feelings. I draw connections to various stuff, and im sort of creative.

Nothing wrong with my thinking, think i rely on thinking way too much when i get stressed, though. And my intuition sometimes comes out at the worst times, when I skateboard for example.

I'm feeling a distinct "you're smart but nobody understand you but a couple of people".

 

[Decaf]

Where's Decaf when he's needed?

Doesn't he say that our secondary function is our realm of creativity? It would make sense to be more aware of it. We like it and our Ti is on autopilot anyway. It doesn't need attention.

Perhaps that's^ Ni speaking.

The realm of creativity is part of my pet theory, but I think its legitimate. The idea came from looking at how much each function lies in the conscious self and how much in the unconscious. Introverted thinking seems like such a simple thing because there are no mysteries to it. It is entirely part of our conscious self, but extraverted intuition is different. It is very much in our control, but there's a part of it that is a mystery to us, made all the more interesting by our ability to understand so much of it. The participation of our unconscious mind allows that function to filter in contributions from our unconscious that would be unavailable to our dominant.

Auto-pilot is a good way to think about it. Most of our basic coping functions (i.e. motor skills, language comprehension) developed during a point in our lives where our dominant function was practically our only function. They are so intertwined with that way of thinking that there is no need for any kind of translation to make things happen like their might be (even at an unconscious level) with the other functions. That's also why I believe it is draining to us to use our extraverted function too much. All our actions go from the sensory input -> Ti -> Ne -> Ti -> action.

I'm still working on a good way to define the third function. For now think of it a lot like your secondary function, but with the additional degree of unconsciousness making it more confusing and less fun to work with.

Did I answer the question? I kinda had to rush that since I need to get to work.

 

[NoID10ts]

I am wondering if my complete loss of faith is related to the third function in some way. Maybe Decaf or someone can help me with this.

In my 20's, I had a well developed theological understanding. It was always in flux, always adapting to new data, but I always felt confident in it. I was never phased by contradictory data because there was always a cognitive way to reconcile it. Experience was always filtered through logic. For example, my theology incorporated the idea of pain and suffering into it, so the experience of pain and suffering itself was filtered through that theological perspective.

But in my early 30's I found a greater emphasis being placed on experience. It's like it gained more credibility with me. I began seeing my own experience and the experience of others fundamentally contradictory to my theological views. I began to be consumend with ideas like randomness, chaos, and chance as it pertained to the reality of life I saw around me. In my 20's I would have adjusted my theology to fit the observable patterns. Now, not so much. I began exploring new concepts, but always filtered through an increased awareness of experience.

Does this make any sense at all? I may be reaching here.

 

[Jordan~]

From what I've read about Si, it sounds like I have it already to a certain extent. I constantly fidget unconsciously: things like folding paper, wrapping things around things, drawing patterns, etc.; and I find some comfort, or at least, preoccupation in it. As for Ne, reading Auburn's list of exercises (I'm not sure where from), one thing strikes me: I would use Ti for all those things. It says not to logically evaluate any of the solutions to hygiene problems in the third world, but I don't think I could avoid logically evaluating them. I'm thinking that maybe Ne and Ti work hand in hand, and become inseperable in problem solving. When I'm asked to explain something and I don't know the answer, I always arrive at a logical conclusion that would sort of "fill in the gaps" of the problem. For example, a friend asked me how the people in Zion in The Matrix would survive without sunlight, and I suggested that they ate mushrooms and perhaps kept animals that lived on mushrooms, and recycled human waste to keep the soil nutrient-rich. That answer came to me based on a kind of unconscious foraging for relevant knowledge, which was then processed logically into an answer. I'm thinking that Ne and Ti working in concert.

Extraverted feeling only comes out under the influence of alcohol. I was drunk the other day, and I kept pointing out people's moods as though fascinated by it.

 

[Decaf]

So this got me thinking and I think I know a good way to describe the inferior function. There are a number of tasks in which to perform them best we must "let go" and let our instincts (a.k.a. unconscious mind) guide us. Those are instances where an unconscious function really is best at taking care of whatever problem in front of us. Unfortunately we can not do this in an easily reproducible or expanding way because it is outside the province of our "will".

Extraverted feeling is for us mostly unconscious and thus works the same way as most of our unconscious functions. There's one small problem. It isn't entirely unconscious and when it engages its like watching a dream and knowing its a dream, but being unable to change any of it. I believe like any muscle we can learn to make good use of facets of this function, but it will always tend to feel a little reckless.

I am wondering if my complete loss of faith is related to the third function in some way. Maybe Decaf or someone can help me with this.

Through the first part of your life you used one perceiving function. That function provided you with data and you analyzed it. End of story. There was nothing to confuse the matter and thus decisions were easy to come by and clarity was automatic. When you started engaging in your Si, you started taking information from your experiences as well and as you realized, its become a problem. You have two functions giving you different information and making you realize that your original clarity was only because you had no conflicting data to worry about.

You are better off confused than certain and wrong. Not to say your Ne is wrong, but it is only one point of view. With mature development of your fourth function you may find it easier to deal with that conflict as the Fe steps in as a tie breaker for your Ti, but before that happens it appears that having multiple sources of information and only one source of decision making can feel overwhelming.

I wonder what its like for those with multiple sources of decision making and only one source of information. I know I'm biased, but I prefer our way.

 

[Reverse Transcriptase]

I wonder what its like for those with multiple sources of decision making and only one source of information. I know I'm biased, but I prefer our way.

I have an ESTP friend. She's a little familiar with the MBTI (though I suspect she still views it as a mostly-unimportant thing I'm obsessed with).
She's very into martial arts, and is very aware of her surroundings- she does biotech work and her labwork was immaculate. (Se)

I got her talking about different ways she make decisions. (I didn't say it quite like that.) She said that there are many times when she feels like she is making decisions based on a very cold and calculating place. Like it doesn't really register emotions, and she's more quiet in that stage. (Ti)

On the flip side, when she's mad at her boyfriend he takes her to the cheap mexican bar/restaurant, they get drunk on tequila, and then she yells at him. "Another rising Fe, senorita?"