The INTP's coming of age

[Artifice Orisit]

Why don't you agree with it Toad?

Personally I agree with Tekton's wisdom, I've always said to myself "one day, when I'm old, I'm going to act silly and nobody will be able to stop me" but now I realise that I shouldn't have to wait until I'm old before I start enjoying life. The most fun I've had so far was playing in the mudflats around Russel island, sure I ruined my clothes, shoes, bike, tamagotchi and my good reputation, but it was worth it!

Also, sea cucumbers are great for spraying friends with water

 

[Tyria]

I agree with Cog: enjoy life.

Even if you have a difficult situation, find things that you can enjoy that are without meaning and are fun. Take time to look at life less seriously.

I think that failure only comes when we stop learning and stop trying. Even if life is difficult, there are still people out there that can make us better and add meaning and joy to our existence. Think about it: people are connected to the accounts and avatars here on the forum. Even though we are talking to one another without being face to face, we are still having human contact on some level.

It's never too late to make things different. You have to have the will and the desire to do it though, and you have to roll with what life throws at you. I think everyone has that capacity. To me, it seems a question of whether one believes in one's capacity or not.

 

[Wisp]

Personally, I would like to point out a gem of an idea put out by Waterstiller:

INFPs

I personally have found that the more time I spend around these elusive creatures, the happier I become. They act in a way that makes me remember who I should be, all of the time, but can't seem to remember. This is hard to explain, so an example is in order.

So, I was riding with an INFP in his truck, and we were driving past a fairly severe-looking automobile accident. As we passed, the only thing he said, was, 'I hope that's not a kid'. This statement struck me as being the perfect response to that moment, yet, it's the sort of thing I would never have thought of.

As LoR put it, "When that happens I find it a little bit like being slapped in the face (reminded) about what should really matter, except that I always forget it on my own".



Perhaps we should find some INFP and use them as a surrogate moral compass. Surely we'd be happier people. Not to mention, no-one says you have to be an asshole to search for truth.

 

[Artifice Orisit]

So, I was riding with an INFP in his truck, and we were driving past a fairly severe-looking automobile accident. As we passed, the only thing he said, was, 'I hope that's not a kid'. This statement struck me as being the perfect response to that moment, yet, it's the sort of thing I would never have thought of.

Personally, I thought the statement was terribly biased.

Not to mention, no-one says you have to be an asshole to search for truth.

Nor does being empathetic require adherence to conventional moral value biases.

Is a child's life worth more than that of an adult?
Is a woman's life worth more than that of an man?
Is a man's life worth more than that of an animal?
Do is our moral perspective sufficient to grant us the right to make such assertions?

Sorry if I’m distracting from your point Wisp, I agree that emotional attachment is a necessary aspect of personal happiness and that it is one too often ignored in the futile search for the embodiment of stoic ideals.

 

[Wisp]

Ah, Cog, you would disagree. Fear not, I shall rise to your challenge!

First of all, since when did I stress conventional morals? The morals you should havfe should be your own. However, much like our logic far exceeds that of the average human, so too does an INFP's sense of morals, for they build them in much the same way we build our internal logic. A child's life is not necessarily worth saving. The sentiment in question was to hope that it wasn't one, specifically, because,

a) the child had his whole life ahead of him
b) Was completely not-at-fault for the accident, and
c) (in my definition of child), was too young to have even known what life was.

In that context, is it not 'right' to hope, however futilely, that the injured party was not a child?

 

[snowqueen]

In my opinion, a breakdown is hitting rock bottom and knowing that you are there. It's forcing yourself to acknowledge the state that you are in, and realizing the series of events that have culminated in this moment. To me, breakdowns are about losing control and becoming a child again who feels lost. It is in these moments when we feel overwhelmed and lost that we can bring about lasting and positive permanent changes. I feel sorry for those who have been (or are) in these situations and feel that they have no one to try to help them out of it.
.

It's funny reading those comments where I'm somehow cited as an example of a less fucked-up INTP - well maybe I am because I know at least that somehow through my life I have managed to overcome my difficulties and reading through this thread is reminding me of that. But right now I feel like CK describes above - I feel out of control and lost, overwhelmed and alone

I have all these defensive measure that stem from fears, but no one is attacking me anymore. Yet I still lash out, and I'm still on edge ready to parry imagined blows. I've forced myself to be strong, but now it just feels like a charade and pretense. What am I even fighting against? What terrible thing could possibly happen if I let down my guard?

If you've grown up with violence and unpredictability then you become hypervigilant - its a form of post traumatic stress disorder. I still flinch if someone raises their hand nearby and get freaked out if people suddenly behave unpredicably in a relationship. But I have learned to accept that and move beyond those feelings. Except around my mother - but then she was the abuser so I think it's inevitable.

Personally, I would like to point out a gem of an idea put out by Waterstiller:

INFPs

I personally have found that the more time I spend around these elusive creatures, the happier I become. They act in a way that makes me remember who I should be, all of the time, but can't seem to remember.

My new love interest is an INFP - but probably too new to dump my current crap on - but I've already noticed this strange healing effect he has on me.

And 'coming of age'??? excuse me while I laugh my head off. I think the only correct response to that bizarre notion is Sed's! Yes, I've arrived somewhere better than I was 30 years ago but there's a long road ahead of me too.

btw - despite my despair, it's so good to know you are all out there in the world.

 

[Waterstiller]

Wisp.. I agree with you about the child being more of a tragedy than an 'adult'. I think most people would. But I want to say that INTP's don't until we have a really good connection with other people.

I also want to say that we help INFP's calm their emotions in the way that they link us to ours. We communicate on the same level and it makes my lack of feeling stand out and I finally feel that lack. Feeling becomes possible and I can escape my logical prison. I don't think I lose logical ability, but logic loses priority and it begins to feel incredibly sterile in comparison to an INFP's idealistic vision. But I can never really escape the logic; the tin man doesn't seem to get his heart in real life. We just grow to understand the value of those who do have hearts.

I somewhat feel like I'm hijacking this thread.. but I think 'growing up' or 'putting the pieces back together' is about coming up against the shame that you never had enough pieces to begin with to finish the puzzle. No matter how you arrange your old self it doesn't fill in the gaps that started popping up and now you're forced to look outside yourself for those pieces. Life as a whole is just finding pieces and watching the picture get bigger and bigger until you die. Which is why it's a bummer for someone to die without getting a chance to see how big and beautiful the picture gets.

I feel out of control and lost, overwhelmed and alone

:hug's heart and tries hard to melt it:

I still flinch if someone raises their hand nearby

Me too.

 

[snowqueen]

:hug's heart and tries hard to melt it:

thank you - am feeling much better now - especially after an hour phone call with my INFP - you are so correct in your analysis - weird!

 

[fullerene]

a) the child had his whole life ahead of him
b) Was completely not-at-fault for the accident, and
c) (in my definition of child), was too young to have even known what life was.

In that context, is it not 'right' to hope, however futilely, that the injured party was not a child?

is well put. I do have to question your point of view if you want to INFP it, though. I've seen that when INFPs put together their values, they tend to argue based on the other values that would have to shift in order to remain consistent... so they'd do the same kind of argument you did, except frame it in terms of values. Instead of "was not completely at fault," they'll frame it in terms of "but you'd also have to say that an innocent person deserves the consequences every bit as much as the person who brought them on themselves."

They're really, really good at finding those inconsistencies, as long as you share some common ground or Fi yourself that eventually says "ok, you're right... I can't accept that along with it."

 

[Wisp]

Ouch, Snowqueen, that was cold... almost like ice... okay, nvm.

And 'coming of age'??? excuse me while I laugh my head off.

And the bit that follows, well, the idea is not that everything is perfect, and that we skip off into the sunset and have happy INTPness forever. No. The idea is that this is the first major hurdle that plagues an INTP through much of his adolescent life. The solving of such a problem would be the catalyst that would change such an adolescent INTP into a full INTP. You'll still have problems, you'll still break down, and pick up the pieces, but it's less of becoming a full person. The idea is that you eliminate those inconsistencies that prevent you from being a ... id on't know how to describe it. The idea is that once yo ulet go of the idea that you're perfect, you can go about working on your problems.

Waterstiller, I'm finding it hard to add to what you've said, because you've encapsulated it all so beautifully. I agree with you on everything you've said about INFP. They're great people, and quite complimentary to us, I think.

Crypt, I can't remember where, but even in the bible they raise children over adults. Iirc Jesus called the children to him at one point. Up to a point, children are innocent. Surely it is better to be given the chance to lose one's innocence than to be prematurely judged?

 

[Carnap]

I will never take meds. I am supposedly "bipolar" and had a manic episode recently. I realize now that it was just because I was bullied by my classmates and professors in college all year long, was told that I didn't have the skills to do philosophy (because I'm religious), was mocked, isolated in my apartment with no friends, and I took all of this.

Then, I fell in love with someone and got rejected.

So, basically, I think some problems like that are just having to deal with other people's abuse, bullshit and rejection whereas everyone needs respect.

I mean, what, these highly educated academics need to act like 3 year old children when they see a religious person just because they study Wittgenstein? What a joke.

I think the whole thing that made me have my manic episode was when I expressed myself. I finally couldn't take it anymore and told the dean I would no longer be tolerating childish antics on the part of adult professors. And then, the dean sat on his throne (sick French hierarchy) and told me I shouldn't be aggressive, and that I shouldn't even be doing philosophy.

Yeah, who woulnd't go bat f-ing crazy after being bullied all year long????

 

[Inappropriate Behavior]

b) Was completely not-at-fault for the accident

Obviously you have never driven a car with children in the back seat. They can be a huge distraction to a driver. Like cell phones and texting. Children can get very rowdy, shout, fight with each other, kick the back of your seat etc.

a and c I can agree with.

As to the rest of where this conversation is going, perhaps it is teaching us the value of other types. The strengths and weaknesses of each type having augmented by others making all of them neccessary, even the types that annoy us. Think of it as a circular chain reaction(s). An INFP can help augment the weaknesses of an INTP and in turn, some other type can help augment their weaknesses, who is augmented by another type and so on and so on until it comes back to us.

So which types are we good for and in what ways? It's certainly got to be more than two types helping each other exclusively right? (sorry if I'm changing the topic too much)

 

[Artifice Orisit]

Ah, Cog, you would disagree. Fear not, I shall rise to your challenge!

First of all, since when did I stress conventional morals? The morals you should havfe should be your own. However, much like our logic far exceeds that of the average human, so too does an INFP's sense of morals, for they build them in much the same way we build our internal logic. A child's life is not necessarily worth saving. The sentiment in question was to hope that it wasn't one, specifically, because,

a) the child had his whole life ahead of him
b) Was completely not-at-fault for the accident, and
c) (in my definition of child), was too young to have even known what life was.

In that context, is it not 'right' to hope, however futilely, that the injured party was not a child?

I'm not saying it's wrong to hope no children were hurt, I'm just saying it would have been better to hope that nobody was hurt.

Subjectively (regarding things like potential and innocence) a child’s life could be considered to have more value than an adults.

Objectively (regarding experience, personal development, worth to society and the costs incurred by society for rasing & educating the individual) an adult's life is worth considerably more than a child’s, assuming of course the adult in question is not exceedingly old or decrepit, but even then the factors of experience and personal development must be considered, after all the wisdom in society often comes from it's elderly.

If both objective and subjective values are considered then we cannot make a judgement of relative value without an extensive study of each individual and even then there are other biases that could invalidate the judgement process. In short, one cannot judge a child or an adult's life to be woth more than the other at face value alone, therefore I believe the most ethical perspective would be to value them both equally. Yay, the grin is back!

 

[snowqueen]

Ouch, Snowqueen, that was cold... almost like ice... okay, nvm.

oh - you know it still shocks me when I realise I've been like that! Sorry Wisp, it wasn't intended to be so dismissive - I guess it was more a reflection of my own realisation that there isn't some point in adulthood where everything falls into place and one has 'arrived'.

And the bit that follows, well, the idea is not that everything is perfect, and that we skip off into the sunset and have happy INTPness forever. No. The idea is that this is the first major hurdle that plagues an INTP through much of his adolescent life. The solving of such a problem would be the catalyst that would change such an adolescent INTP into a full INTP. You'll still have problems, you'll still break down, and pick up the pieces, but it's less of becoming a full person. The idea is that you eliminate those inconsistencies that prevent you from being a ... id on't know how to describe it. The idea is that once yo ulet go of the idea that you're perfect, you can go about working on your problems.

Thanks for restating that -yes I agree that is exactly what it's like and I suppose my perspective is that the next hurdle is realising that there is also not a point at which you've worked on all your problems and become perfect. I think the idea that one could be perfect is subtly seductive to INTPs throughout their life. I tried for a long time to be perfectly ordinary, for example!

I was talking to my INFP friend yesterday and discussing the idea in Buddhism that there is no Self (we are both Buddhists) and he had only just come across the notion and said how relieved he was because it explained why he has find it so hard to work out who his true self is (the INFP quest, apparently). To an extent I think the INTP also shares this quest but in a different way - looking to create a coherent whole out of all the parts rather than mining down into some 'essential' self. Strangely, I realised while I was talking that being an INTP has provided me with a really strong set of essential qualities that I have found much more useful in constructing a sense of what is constant about me than anything rooted in other psychological constructs or in roles or behaviours I adopt.

So notions of 'perfection' simply don't apply. Rather than try and be a perfect friend, worker, mathematician, writer, etc etc - I kind of see myself as a sort of an internalised thinking, idea-generating, connection-forming, problem-solving being who is constantly responding to situational stimuli in a dynamic and forward-oriented way. Endlessly fascinating!

 

[Sugarpop]

So which types are we good for and in what ways? It's certainly got to be more than two types helping each other exclusively right? (sorry if I'm changing the topic too much)

I'm not saying it's wrong to hope no children were hurt, I'm just saying it would have been better to hope that nobody was hurt.

Subjectively (regarding things like potential and innocence) a child’s life could be considered to have more value than an adults.

Objectively (regarding experience, personal development, worth to society and the costs incurred by society for rasing & educating the individual) an adult's life is worth considerably more than a child’s, assuming of course the adult in question is not exceedingly old or decrepit, but even then the factors of experience and personal development must be considered, after all the wisdom in society often comes from it's elderly.

If both objective and subjective values are considered then we cannot make a judgement of relative value without an extensive study of each individual and even then there are other biases that could invalidate the judgement process. In short, one cannot judge a child or an adult's life to be woth more than the other at face value alone, therefore I believe the most ethical perspective would be to value them both equally. Yay, the grin is back!

I think Cog just answered the question indirectly. INTPs can help, for instance, INFPs by being detached. My INFP friend often says that I bring her a sort of balance through detached and logical argumentation.

 

[Artifice Orisit]

ie-de-wa?
Um... I meant to do that.

 

[Carnap]

lol

 

[Sugarpop]

ie-de-wa?
Um... I meant to do that.

I actually intended 'indirectly' to mean something more along the lines of 'unwittingly'.

When confronted with a moral question, we tend to pick it apart in a way I think many INFPs could benefit from. The INFP in the car-crash example probably made a judgment based on a basic sympathy and perhaps illogical sympathy with children. We help them explore life from another angle.

 

[Razare]

I actually intended 'indirectly' to mean something more along the lines of 'unwittingly'.

When confronted with a moral question, we tend to pick it apart in a way I think many INFPs could benefit from. The INFP in the car-crash example probably made a judgment based on a basic sympathy and perhaps illogical sympathy with children. We help them explore life from another angle.

Yes, the value systems in the INFP mind defy logic. One I know has a dog that is unhealthy and misbehaves, instead of giving it structure and boundaries in the house, she just melts when she sees it and forgives it for peeing on her bed and raiding her garbage. In being compassionate she does the animal more harm, which is illogical if you actually cared for the creature.

They generally lack self-control and perseverance, which is a broad generalization of the ones I have met on the INFP forum. Though, most people lack these things so I'm not sure if it's an INFP quality. Just saying, an irrational emotional state combined with lack of self-control and no confidence doesn't lead to a very happy existence. The INFP's seem to bounce between the highs and lows of life, the highs always being irrational idealism that they believe they'll somehow achieve without effort, and the lows being the realization that this world is not ideal, nor with any amount of effort will their dreams be realized. To the INFP's credit, I think the happy ones aren't on the INFP forum because they're too busy exploring life to remain stationary.

 

[flow]

Ah, but what does that say about the INTPs who have gravitated towards forums.. are we stationary?

 

[Cryss Winters]

Ah, but what does that say about the INTPs who have gravitated towards forums.. are we stationary?

Depends on how we use said forums.

 

[Waterstiller]

The idea is that this is the first major hurdle that plagues an INTP through much of his adolescent life. The solving of such a problem would be the catalyst that would change such an adolescent INTP into a full INTP.

And I think that's a great way to put it. I want to say that the first major hurdle is finding Ti to come up WAY short for the first time in one's life. There was another other thread this was discussed; this all really ties into the development of functions for INTP's and how in our 20's we begin to stop relying solely on that function. I feel like I'm just restating what has already been said though; there are a million ways to say it huh?

So which types are we good for and in what ways? It's certainly got to be more than two types helping each other exclusively right? (sorry if I'm changing the topic too much)

I agree that there's something we can learn from every other type; every other person as well. I think they come later though; like we can't 'really' learn from them until our Ti isn't the only function we use.

The INFP seems like a shortcut. I personally only really connect with them and until I connected with them I felt like every other connection was lacking. If the connection between other people's realities isn't working, I think the INTP stays trapped in their own reality (just like everyone else.). Other functions are unintelligible because they're just not logical, and logic is truth because it's the closest thing to being objective that we can come up with.

And so.. the INFP is our equal. They are intelligible except for their freakish ability to be subjective. Yet they have a coherent system.. and it comes up with results. My instinct is to ground them, but in doing so it's like I'm catching a hot air balloon on a rope and it lifts me up into the air. I then feel what it's like to be off the ground and it's beautiful. They seem to like the stability of the ground every once in awhile instead of being blown whichever way the wind blows.

I'd say we understand the wind; the ubiquitous representative of objective reality and completely and utterly without definite form. The wind is our stability; which is why we aren't afraid of it.

The INFP's seem to bounce between the highs and lows of life, the highs always being irrational idealism that they believe they'll somehow achieve without effort, and the lows being the realization that this world is not ideal, nor with any amount of effort will their dreams be realized.

Me: But you are the type to have all these dreams.
Mom: And you're the type to bring them into reality.

(paraphrased)

I kind of see myself as a sort of an internalised thinking, idea-generating, connection-forming, problem-solving being who is constantly responding to situational stimuli in a dynamic and forward-oriented way. Endlessly fascinating!

How would that go over if I used that answer for the "describe yourself" question during a job interview?

I'm totally stealing that, by the way. It's just so accurate and concise.

 

[Fukyo]

It feels good to re-read this thread.

 

[Inappropriate Behavior]

Waxing nostalgic for days long gone?

I can dig it.

*will try to remember to re-read it tomorrow*