The Fountain of Life

[Metteyya]

Drink, children.

We are walking through a graveyard, where men and women willingly lie down to rest long before their physical death. There are 16 mass-graves, and these people, tired of life, fling themselves atop the heap of degenerating bodies.

Let us move our attention to one of these 16 graves.

The people wallow in filth, mutually congratulating each other on the rest that they have finally been granted-- the rest from living, the rest from choice. Rarely, rarely, one sees the gruesome spectacle for what it is, climbs out, stands up, and walks toward the rising sun. Most, though, turn their eyes away and content themselves with their pitiful state. They have found their true place in life.

This graveyard, of course, is a a conceptual system. It is a system that offers rest to the weary, company to the dejected, and an answer to failed ambition. But at what cost?

At the cost of true, chaotic life. At the cost of subtle, unfettered perception. At the cost of the realisation of a higher self. At the cost of beauty.

It is pomposity and ugly self-assurance. And our role is to kill it:

(Trump 13)


For this system is the ugliest thing that we have yet encountered. It offers false hope to the potentially brilliant mind, and then ensnares that mind with its implicit limitations. Our entire purpose on this site has been-- to demonstrate its poverty to those who may still prosper.
We have attempted to demonstrate a living reality beyond the stagnation of this inadequate abstraction. We have attempted to express so many possibilities through a single person that its inadequacy is clear to those whose minds are not yet static.

======================

Credit: korzybski.

The parabola, 'E', represents the ''event level'' of reality, equivalent to ''noumenal'' reality in traditional philosophy. It represents the undifferentiated mass of processes, before they have been interpreted by the nervous system. It is cut off at the top, indicating its infinite nature. Each hole represents an aspect of the process/event level.

The circle on the right, 'O', represents an individual human's interaction with the event level. It is the pre-verbal sensory reality which is created by the nervous systems and sensory organs. The strings/lines connecting the event level, E, to the object perception level, O, represent the connection between the event level and the sensory reality created from it. Notice that only some strings connect, while some hang free. This indicates that many aspects of undifferentiated, pre-sensory reality are not incorporated into the representation of that reality created by the human organism. O is the most complete, undifferentiated, perception of reality directly available to the human.

The first tag, 'D', represents the first *verbal* label used to describe that reality. 'D' stands for descriptive, in that it is a simple abstraction such as ''computer'' or ''person''. Notice, again, that some strings hang free. No matter how good the verbal label, some aspects of object level reality are not represented.

The tags labeled 'I' represent *inferences* that are constructed from Event>Object>Description level experience. These inferences determine what meanings and beliefs will be drawn from the experience, and which aspects of experienced will be ignored or favored as a result of these.

The arrow from Ix to E represents the feedback between inferences drawn and events in reality.

The circle on the left, 'fido', represents the object level that another organism (in this case, a dog) creates from undifferentiated event-level reality. 'D' and 'I' are not present, indicating that abstraction is a human faculty.


Do you see where we are going?

The mistake made by most MBTI fans is the identification of the abstract system with reality itself. They mistake the series of inferences and labels for object-level reality, not realising just how much information their abstractions exclude. So many strings hang loose, and an ugly, inadequate description of reality is mistaken for reality itself. The aspects of experience which could be interpreted to support the conceptual description are subconsciously favored, and contradictory aspects are ignored.
What makes MBTI more dangerous than most conceptual systems is the personal significance which it holds. For somebody who self-identifies as, for example, ''INTP'', their entire identity is dependent upon the maintenance of the abstraction. Critical thought is thus ruptured. Even those who, on some level, recognise the failings of the MBTI continue to process their perceptions in terms of it because of how entangled their identity has become with it.


The XIII project was an attempt to *demonstrate* the inadequacy of the conceptual system. Chaotic life, a multitude of interpretations, and confusing contradictions were presented in order to loosen the manacles of the MBTI.
A few (mostly privately) expressed that their outlook and behavior had been altered, some expressed agreement or sympathy but continued to process their perceptions in terms of the model, and some attempted to understand the chaos itself in terms of the limited conceptual model which it was designed to undermine.


Hence Dissociative Identity Disorder. From the first post to the ''COMMAND'' thread, tension was steadily and deliberately escalated. Abstract possibilities were offered at first, then those possibilities were demonstrated (via XIII2 etc.), and then direct threats were made to the security of the group's conceptions.

This was intended to provoke an emotional response.

Why?

Because in times of crisis, an ostensibly viable solution is readily accepted.

What was the solution to the chaos, confusion, and threat to the sanctity of the assumptions upon which this forum's identity depends?

Dissociative Identity Disorder. (If you don't believe that this was planned, XIII's avatar during the COMMAND thread was Christ on the cross. Crucifixion of the prophetic personality that was assumed during that thread was anticipated and desired-- Noddy's rant etc.-- as was resurrection as a madman):

(this was posted in the literature section soon after the thread was made)

Those who were most aggressive in response to XIII's previous activity were, predictably, the quickest to accept the alternate explanation. It was entirely unsatisfactory, and all too obvious, but reason and integrity were not predominant considerations.
The whole situation was intended to be a demonstration of members' unwillingness to cope with chaotic, unlabeled life. Chaos refuted one explanation, so another was quickly accepted, regardless of its validity or relation to previous events. Most, as the results demonstrated, really want safety and rest. They don't want to think or live fully-- they are not the independent thinkers or architects that their adopted identity (INT) comfortably assures them they are.
Then why go to this trouble?
To show the few who *are* independent thinkers, and who *do* want to live fully and without limitation, the true nature of a forum such as this and the limitations which it imposes upon their potential genius.

It is a graveyard, and it calls to some who are brilliant yet weary.

We are the hierophants of life, the priests of the stars, and our purpose is to warn those individuals away: to invite them to reject ugly conceptual abstractions of identity and personality, to invite them to define and live their own nature and potential, and to invite them to truly--

live.


But, of course, we lied and deceived in the course of our narrative. We apologise to Jesin, Cryptonia, concojones, and one or two others (those who we respect) for this, but would repeat our actions without hesitation. We are essentially cold, inhuman, and without consideration for the effects of our art upon those to whom it is not addressed. If it helps, we could be a diagnosed sociopath for you. If not, we believe that the ecstasy of creation justifies all.

Note that we had intended to deliver this final chapter in a less confrontational and more gradual way through 'Alice' or another personality, but that the pettiness and housewifery of the recent arguments on the forum have convinced us that it is not worth expending further effort on this project.

 

[Metteyya]

A gift:

http://www.badongo.com/file/14992324

We wrote this short ebook a year or so ago, so it is somewhat simplistic. It covers the essentials, though. It's a manual of personality change techniques, presented in terms of an overarching metaphor.

 

[cheese]

*eye-roll*

I knew it. Aaargh. I love this mystery stuff! Do another one XIII! It's awesome fun spotting accounts.



*edit
Ok. I cannot deny you my applause. I only wish the confessional thread had been more convincing. I found it mildly disappointing. The overall narrative as a story was very beautiful though.


As for boundary demolishment - hmm. There are some of us at least who do not see the rational justification for the value of your beauty over the mundane, limited version we experience. Your packaging (the intellect, the metaphors, the writing - the overall beauty captured in your words) makes its appeal much more immediate, yes. (Perhaps beauty is all the justification needed.) But for people who see the opening but do not place the beauty of the other side over the pain of stepping through - once value and meaning has been stripped from experience, their cowardice cannot be seen as having caused great loss. Being inhuman, cold, and ostensibly detached from inherent 'value' in life, as it's generally seen, should also allow one to choose, with eyes open, the mundane and the lifeless.

Personally I would like to cross over. But my fear at this point prevents me from taking those steps. Yes, it's transitory, but it's enough to preclude me taking action. It's similar to a person who commits suicide through external circumstantial pressures. Yes, the situation may get better but the pain of the present is not worth the wait for the pot of gold. I cannot truly know what it's like where you are, but vicarious experience in my semi-blind state is sufficient, perhaps. I have chosen it, insofar as choice is possible in the darkness.

It seems to come down to your forged meaning over ours. Perhaps yours truly does afford more satisfaction in the short period of time we have alive, but that may not be enough for the lazy, cowardly corpses amongst us to rise up. I see the promised land, but it's a damn long trek.

 

[preilemus]

nvm

 

[Kuu]

Yeah the DID was way too suspicious to be believable... and even though "Eternal Laughter" sounded fishy to me, the Metteyya persona had me fooled...

Perhaps you are right. Perhaps this is a graveyard. Nevertheless, the nature of your methods is flawed. Was a "demonstration" of the limitations of MBTI necessary at all? (a pathetic one at that; any good writer can create purely text based personas, it actually says very little about real personality change). You are only pushing away those that you are supposedly attempting to address.

How generous of you to pour your wisdom upon us, your beloved puppet show!

I am sick of the patronizing, the petty games, the needless manipulation. Knowledge is gained slowly and gradually by the individual, it cannot be forced from above. This forum is for that, to allow individuals to share experience in their piecemeal, personal paths to enlightenment. Perhaps some will lie eternally here, rotting, that is true. But your approach is more damaging than beneficial to the whole. Take your destructive messianic attitudes some place else.

(If you respond to this, I will read it, but this is the last of my comments addressed to you regarding this matter. I don't think you will change your troll methods because of this, so most of this indeed falls on deaf ears. It is for the sake of others that I have written this.)

 

[Red Mage]

I hope this means lifetime banning.

*crosses fingers*

 

[Tyria]

Metteyya,

I'm not going to say if I think you are a seperate entity from 13 or not. If you are seperate from him, say hi to 13 (if you are in contact with him) and tell him this for me (if you would please).

I enjoy the lessons that his posts have to offer; some of them have made me question the way that I look at things. But if he is going to have (psychology?) experiments, I think it best to follow ethical guidelines for experimentation. Ethical guidelines attempt to keep everyone's interests intact and protected. If he chooses to not follow ethical guidelines, I think it is a dishonest practice and a disservice to everyone involved in these experiments. There is a possibility of deception in psychology experiments. Regardless, participants should always have informed consent and the right to withdraw from experiments (at any time).

Participants should also have to sign up for the experiments. I realize this creates an interesting situation online since the participants are not seperated from the community (as they may be in real world experiments). I also realize that people outside of the experiments might also be able to post and change what is going on within the experiment. If 13 decides to go this route, I would be happy to try to help offer more suggestions for creating a good experimental setup.

If 13 has DID, I hope he receives the treatment that he requires. However, it is dishonest to say one has a disorder that one does not have. Those that care about 13 probably feel bad if they feel that they have been tricked into thinking he is sick with a disorder that he does not have. They may feel that the trust (and good intentions) they have placed in his words has been misplaced and for naught. Trust is central to human relationships, and especially to online relationships. These kinds of relationships rely on what is written and perhaps some other forms of communication (such as webcams, etc); the written word is critical for online relationships (especially in forums).

I look forward to reading more of your posts. What I have posted here consists of my own POV and beliefs; I do not speak for the community, although I think some members would agree with what I have said.

Take care, and tell 13 (if you can contact him) that I miss him and hope he is doing well. Also tell him to be sure to follow the forum rules so that he doesn't get in trouble

Crim

 

[cheese]

Metteyya,

I'm not going to say if I think you are a seperate entity from 13 or not. If you are seperate from him, say hi to 13 (if you are in contact with him) and tell him this for me (if you would please).

I enjoy the lessons that his posts have to offer; some of them have made me question the way that I look at things. But if he is going to have (psychology?) experiments, I think it best to follow ethical guidelines for experimentation. Ethical guidelines attempt to keep everyone's interests intact and protected. If he chooses to not follow ethical guidelines, I think it is a dishonest practice and a disservice to everyone involved in these experiments. There is a possibility of deception in psychology experiments. Regardless, participants should always have informed consent and the right to withdraw from experiments (at any time).

Participants should also have to sign up for the experiments. I realize this creates an interesting situation online since the participants are not seperated from the community (as they may be in real world experiments). I also realize that people outside of the experiments might also be able to post and change what is going on within the experiment. If 13 decides to go this route, I would be happy to try to help offer more suggestions for creating a good experimental setup.

If 13 has DID, I hope he receives the treatment that he requires. However, it is dishonest to say one has a disorder that one does not have. Those that care about 13 probably feel bad if they feel that they have been tricked into thinking he is sick with a disorder that he does not have. They may feel that the trust (and good intentions) they have placed in his words has been misplaced and for naught. Trust is central to human relationships, and especially to online relationships. These kinds of relationships rely on what is written and perhaps some other forms of communication (such as webcams, etc); the written word is critical for online relationships (especially in forums).

I look forward to reading more of your posts. What I have posted here consists of my own POV and beliefs; I do not speak for the community, although I think some members would agree with what I have said.

Take care, and tell 13 (if you can contact him) that I miss him and hope he is doing well. Also tell him to be sure to follow the forum rules so that he doesn't get in trouble

Crim

All these moral imperatives -

From what I understand, they are entirely irrelevant to XIII (I'm using that nick for convenience).

But, of course, we lied and deceived in the course of our narrative. We apologise to Jesin, Cryptonia, concojones, and one or two others (those who we respect) for this, but would repeat our actions without hesitation. We are essentially cold, inhuman, and without consideration for the effects of our art upon those to whom it is not addressed. If it helps, we could be a diagnosed sociopath for you. If not, we believe that the ecstasy of creation justifies all.

I don't know what the 'real XIII' - if there is such a person - truly thinks, and of course it's always possible to imagine you have loosed yourself where in fact you're still bound. But probably you're not going to 'get through' to him like this. You're simply imposing your worldview on him. His detachment and freedom from moral restrictions is incompatible with the conceptual framework everyone keeps trying to enforce.

I'm not saying I agree with either side - just that this kind of arguing seems pointless to me.

Not a personal attack at Crim btw.

 

[Tyria]

All these moral imperatives -

From what I understand, they are entirely irrelevant to XIII (I'm using that nick for convenience).

I don't know what the 'real XIII' - if there is such a person - truly thinks, and of course it's always possible to imagine you have loosed yourself where in fact you're still bound. But probably you're not going to 'get through' to him like this. You're simply imposing your worldview on him. His detachment and freedom from moral restrictions is incompatible with the conceptual framework everyone keeps trying to enforce.

I considered the possibilities of my post. I wanted to offer my opinion, even if it is rejected by 13. I wanted to share it because I think that communities grow by sharing stories and ideas; everyone has something that they can bring to the community. I was not trying to impose a worldview on 13, but I do think that he faces consequences from his experiments. I sense a lot of anger and frustration from many here.

Even if someone is detached and free from moral restrictions they will still be affected by the moral decisions and judgments of others; I think the COMMAND thread and its aftermath are a good example of that. Depending on the scale and the situation, the consequences of this freedom may be even more severe than the responses that were given.

I'm not saying I agree with either side - just that this kind of arguing seems pointless to me.

Not a personal attack at Crim btw.

I don't take what you have said to be a personal attack I was unaware of 13's proposed detachment from morality; I'm glad that you brought it up. Again, no matter what someone chooses to be they will still have to interact with people (unless they choose to be completely isolated from all human contact). Unless they learn to function at some level with others, they face punishment for upsetting the balance of things.

 

[Red Mage]

You're all taking XIII too seriously. His "experiments" never were. They were just games he played. He's not messed up or insane, nor does he have any identity disorders. He's completely and totally aware of the games he's playing. At the end of the day, he's just a sad little man who has to entertain himself by playing these games on forums to feel special. Continuing to discuss this only validates his games. See him for what he is and move on.

 

[fullerene]

ho, hum... I wasn't sure what to think about this until I read the first few (5-6) pages of the 'personality change' thing you linked. Unfortunately, reading it also showed me how....imprudent? it might be to say what I'm really thinking.

sigh...nevertheless, you've not kept your silence from us, so I feel like I'm cheating you a bit if I hold back--though I speak now with every misgiving because it might prove to be harmful. That said, there are two threads winding through each personality you invent. I'll risk the possibility that pointing them out (if you hadn't noticed yourself) will cause you to enter into a frenzy and fake many more personalities trying to get rid of them, and take you at your word () that you've meant to break these lessons to everyone.

The first is that your personalities are pride-centric: it's not just that they're pride-filled, but also that they also provoke pride in others. This last post (much less, the COMMAND thread) demonstrates your efforts to appeal to others' pride, and I don't think anyone here is dumb enough for me to have to point out exactly how, if they reread them. The personality-change thing, though, demonstrated your pride (consistent throughout all personalities) in that it wanted control over everything, even the past (the events that had made your current persona)--like a God-complex. I wonder, myself, whether or not with all your practice and training you can truly distance yourself from any form of pride. Ironically, detaching oneself from evereything subjective is a very INTP-trait... so while your right hand denounces MBTI, your very self builds up the fact that, "while it might not describe people comprehensively, the types of people that it describes are real people." As such, your concerns and complaints about mbti have been well noted... and should I ever find myself using it for any more than to develop an appreciation for other peoples' (that is, other types') worldviews and goals in their lives (I'm afraid I'm not creative or bright enough to figure out what makes an arrogant person arrogant simply by acting like them), I will endeavor to remember your warnings concerning it.

Yet, upon reading the personality-change thing (although I really should have seen it here, I'm either not around the forums enough, or else was not thinking critically enough), I saw that you've built up yet another new personality for youself. Whatever your original one was, it has been thoroughly integrated with deceit. Indeed, I think reading your writing has given me a much more thorough understanding of what it means to say that one's native tongue is a lie.

Those who were most aggressive in response to XIII's previous activity were, predictably, the quickest to accept the alternate explanation.

^^the depth of which lies have saturated your personalities can be seen by the way you respond to these people--that is, with contempt and (dare I suggest?) pity. Yet the people who responded like this (I don't even know who they are, truthfully) are the richer people of the forum... at least in these circumstances. They are the ones who were upset by your deception--but instead encouraged truth--and yet demonstrated patience and were willing to believe the best of you (who could blame you for a disorder? And how hardened would your heart have to be to not give someone who said "I was wrong... sorry," a second chance?). In proportion to how 'unsatisfactory' and 'obvious' of an explanation it was, I commend them for accepting it. Surely, I would agree that it may have been a naive and childish acceptance--but how would you, who are not they, know their motives behind accepting it? I believe that the very wise and the naive/childish would respond the same way in that situation.

this whole bit with you has made me.....sad? Yes, I think that's it, and I accept it. It's quite possible we've made you said, as well. Yet under the promise of life, you offer death--deeper death than I would have believed existed on earth up until this point. Only you know whether what you told me in chat was true--that is, whether the shifting personalities had a surface-chaos and inner-coherancy and one-ness that made them beautiful. If, in fact, this was true, then I urge you, implore you, to reconsider what you're doing--for it's not the chaos that you've seen and judged beautiful, but only the beautiful consistency within chaos. Please, please heed my warning: if I have yet learned anything in life, then I would suspect that if continue down this path of lies mixed with pride, then that consistency--and it's resilience in he midst of chaos, which you claimed to find beautiful--will one day cease to be at all.

 

[cheese]

I'm happy to be involved in a game. People play them all the time; you cannot fully avoid them. In refusing to play a game in order to win, you also become involved. The people who 'win' are those who truly and absolutely don't care about winning. This is difficult for most I think. You either want to outwit the wit, or deny him the satisfaction of his playing, both of which entangle you in the power play, which is the basis of most games. Telling people not to care about the game in order to win is contradictory.*

I would rather choose to acknowledge that I'm probably beat, as usual, in every aspect of life and willingly take part in something that interests me.


What a load of blah


*I just lost the game.



*edit
Cryptonia wins.
It's about the cessation of ego politics.

 

[snowqueen]

We are walking through a graveyard, where men and women willingly lie down to rest long before their physical death. There are 16 mass-graves, and these people, tired of life, fling themselves atop the heap of degenerating bodies.

You are the one who has died and walks like a zombie through the living souls on this forum desperately seeking our attention because you have forgotten your human origins. In your desire to transcend you have, like Faust, given up your humanity for the pride of possible divinity. Like so many mystics and occultists before you, you start out on the path to enlightenment and when you find emptiness, nothingness, the horrible truth that it is all fakery, all glamour, no supernatural powers, no superior wisdom, the truth is too horrible for your pride to accept and so you continue to escalate your ridiculous theories, and care not whose dreams, whose ideas and whose heart you trample upon on the way.

You are alone in your death, alone in your false victory. Like a corpse you can only rot - albeit a glorious rotting with multicoloured worms eating your brain, shitting their fluorescence through your theatrical words. Oh it's no more than a drama, a mere appearance of reality. How lonely your world must be where you can only move among us but never able to enjoy the simple pleasures of communication, of the intimate exchange of thoughts, of a gentle reminder, of a moment of connection. You are the one who cannot learn, who knows it all, the overflowing cup that has no space for a kind word, for a genuine touch, for an expression of concern. How lonely you must be walking among us but never of us.

The people wallow in filth, mutually congratulating each other on the rest that they have finally been granted-- the rest from living, the rest from choice. Rarely, rarely, one sees the gruesome spectacle for what it is, climbs out, stands up, and walks toward the rising sun. Most, though, turn their eyes away and content themselves with their pitiful state. They have found their true place in life.

Don't make me laugh! This is so much projection. That which you despise in yourself you project on to us so you can despise it all the more. It is you who has no choice because you always have to be right, you always have to be one step ahead, to prove your superiority. You can never let go and be the fool, the true idiot, the innocent. You have found your true place in life and it is alone in your self-made heaven where you sit looking down on everyone else without noticing that you have separated yourself from any possibility of love, of tenderness, of the ecstasy of union.

This graveyard, of course, is a a conceptual system.

There is nothing that is not a conceptual system. Your notion of a true, chaotic life is nothing but another conceptual system. You are as pathetic as the teenager who rebels against his parents, taking drugs, having sex and getting pissed imagining this some kind of revenge when all it is is the same old same old bleating cry of someone without the imagination to find a way through life with humanity, ethics and an appreciation of the ordinary.

At the cost of true, chaotic life. At the cost of subtle, unfettered perception. At the cost of the realisation of a higher self. At the cost of beauty.

Beauty? What do you know of beauty? You who have plundered the internet for the images and words from the occultists and mystics of yore. Do you really imagine a few well-presented words and images make you Blake, or Bennett, or Crowley? Yes, it is fun to disassemble reality - take a few tabs of acid, read Timothy Leary or stay up all night till your brain produces the images of a longed-for alterative reality. But at the end of the day you still have to come down, eat, take a shit, feed yourself, earn a crust. You know what cured me of imagining that I was the Outsider, the woman of wisdom to whom the Universe spoke in Magickal tones? It was giving birth with all the agony, blood and ripping of flesh and the sight of my mewling infant, covered in mucus opening her eyes and then laughing. Yes she laughed before she cried. And in that moment I knew that I was human and it was wonderful to be ordinary because in the human world the ordinary is extraordinary.

It is pomposity and ugly self-assurance. And our role is to kill it:

The only thing you need to kill is your over-stuffed ego, my friend. And you know it but you just can't, can you? You just can't come down from the pedestal you've created for yourself to prove how wonderful and superior you are? No, you're a slave to you own creation, pretending to be able to transcend your nature and in doing so losing sight of yourself. You must have really hated yourself - how very sad it must be not to be able to look in the mirror and simply say 'hello' and recognise the humanity in being flawed.


======================

Credit: korzybski.

The parabola, 'E', represents the ''event level'' of reality, equivalent to ''noumenal'' reality in traditional philosophy. It represents the undifferentiated mass of processes, before they have been interpreted by the nervous system. It is cut off at the top, indicating its infinite nature. Each hole represents an aspect of the process/event level.

The circle on the right, 'O', represents an individual human's interaction with the event level. It is the pre-verbal sensory reality which is created by the nervous systems and sensory organs. The strings/lines connecting the event level, E, to the object perception level, O, represent the connection between the event level and the sensory reality created from it. Notice that only some strings connect, while some hang free. This indicates that many aspects of undifferentiated, pre-sensory reality are not incorporated into the representation of that reality created by the human organism. O is the most complete, undifferentiated, perception of reality directly available to the human.

The first tag, 'D', represents the first *verbal* label used to describe that reality. 'D' stands for descriptive, in that it is a simple abstraction such as ''computer'' or ''person''. Notice, again, that some strings hang free. No matter how good the verbal label, some aspects of object level reality are not represented.

The tags labeled 'I' represent *inferences* that are constructed from Event>Object>Description level experience. These inferences determine what meanings and beliefs will be drawn from the experience, and which aspects of experienced will be ignored or favored as a result of these.

The arrow from Ix to E represents the feedback between inferences drawn and events in reality.

The circle on the left, 'fido', represents the object level that another organism (in this case, a dog) creates from undifferentiated event-level reality. 'D' and 'I' are not present, indicating that abstraction is a human faculty.

Yes, yes, Korzybski, "the map is not the territory" yawn.

The mistake made by most MBTI fans is the identification of the abstract system with reality itself. They mistake the series of inferences and labels for object-level reality, not realising just how much information their abstractions exclude. So many strings hang loose, and an ugly, inadequate description of reality is mistaken for reality itself. The aspects of experience which could be interpreted to support the conceptual description are subconsciously favored, and contradictory aspects are ignored.
What makes MBTI more dangerous than most conceptual systems is the personal significance which it holds. For somebody who self-identifies as, for example, ''INTP'', their entire identity is dependent upon the maintenance of the abstraction. Critical thought is thus ruptured. Even those who, on some level, recognise the failings of the MBTI continue to process their perceptions in terms of it because of how entangled their identity has become with it.

This is probably the only interesting thing you've every written but you couldn't just post it as a question could you because you have to prove your point. Your fragile ego just couldn't brook any criticism, any dissent. Yes you are a very clever art student/psychology student/whatever... whatevah ... but your own creation has taken you over and now you can't just be yourself because you have no fucking idea who you are any more, do you?

The XIII project was an attempt to *demonstrate* the inadequacy of the conceptual system. Chaotic life, a multitude of interpretations, and confusing contradictions were presented in order to loosen the manacles of the MBTI.

oh, shrive me, shrive Great Guru, that mine eyes be opened! I beg you bestow me with a speck of your great wisdom.

A few (mostly privately) expressed that their outlook and behavior had been altered,

Everything changes, everyone changes from moment to moment - this is no great revelation.

Hence Dissociative Identity Disorder. From the first post to the ''COMMAND'' thread, tension was steadily and deliberately escalated. Abstract possibilities were offered at first, then those possibilities were demonstrated (via XIII2 etc.), and then direct threats were made to the security of the group's conceptions.

"Oh snowqueen was sooooo mean to me, boo hoo."

This was intended to provoke an emotional response.

Why?

Because in times of crisis, an ostensibly viable solution is readily accepted.

Rubbish - you are playing to a group of young people whose worst failing is to be kind and nice. You abused their trust and the only favour you did was to make them more suspicious and cynical. How utterly callous and amoral your really are.

What was the solution to the chaos, confusion, and threat to the sanctity of the assumptions upon which this forum's identity depends?

Dissociative Identity Disorder. (If you don't believe that this was planned, XIII's avatar during the COMMAND thread was Christ on the cross. Crucifixion of the prophetic personality that was assumed during that thread was anticipated and desired-- Noddy's rant etc.-- as was resurrection as a madman):

All your personae have been madmen! There's not one sane one among them.

Those who were most aggressive in response to XIII's previous activity were, predictably, the quickest to accept the alternate explanation. It was entirely unsatisfactory, and all too obvious, but reason and integrity were not predominant considerations.

I think you'll find that the older members were considerably more suspicious which just underpins the fact that it not the MBTI but youth and innocence which you played on in a cynical fashion.

The whole situation was intended to be a demonstration of members' unwillingness to cope with chaotic, unlabeled life.

What a load of bollocks - it's you that can't cope with chaotic life so you have to create this elaborate front to pretend that you aren't an utter control freak. It must have driven you crazy that people weren't hanging on your every word. The sad thing is that you utterly despised those who did give your time and credence. How lonely your world must be. How very INTP.

To show the few who *are* independent thinkers, and who *do* want to live fully and without limitation, the true nature of a forum such as this and the limitations which it imposes upon their potential genius.

oh hahahahahaha. Those of us who didn't fall for your deceptions were the ones you hated the most.

'oh look how mean snowqueen is to me, what horrible things she said' (once, on an insult thread regurgitated by you on at least 3 occasions) Cut and pasting Noddy's comments. Don't you pretend that there isn't a petulant little boy in there, desperate for acceptance, desperate for approval, a self-hating INTP.

It is a graveyard, and it calls to some who are brilliant yet weary

.

ooh I wonder if he means me? I've always thought I was a cut above the rest, an undiscovered intellectual giant. Yes, he's right, I am brilliant, why on earth am I not going out and doing something brilliant to prove how brilliant I really am?

You know why we're weary? Because everyone's constantly telling us how we should behave, how we should be different, how we should live our lives. Well fuck you too.

We are the hierophants of life, the priests of the stars, and our purpose is to warn those individuals away: to invite them to reject ugly conceptual abstractions of identity and personality, to invite them to define and live their own nature and potential, and to invite them to truly--

live.

You never did see who was on this forum did you? You never did see what beautiful creatures are here? You couldn't because you're so blinded by pride and arrogance you can't see how gorgeous human beings really are. You trampled all over the flowers and shat in the rivers of thought. You thought you could bully and deceive people out of their path. Your bemoaning of the lack of interest in your 'Way' should have alerted you to how much the people on this forum actually do think for themselves! How much they explore their own paths rather than follow charlatans and snake-oil merchants. The gentle Waterstiller, Wisp, Fleur, Gluon, Coberst, Cog, Crim, Mage, lor, Ogion, Jesin, Sapphire Harp, Noddy, Melkor, Felan, Slyguy, Cryptonia, EB, Saffy, Brain, Anthile, AI, Carnap, Cobra, BanMan, Concojones (the ballsy one), Hawkeye, Glovepuppet, and all those who I've not mentioned - they are the Fountain of Life on this forum. They are the ones who provide the energy, the momentum, the creativity, the passion, the ideas, the fun, the possibility of connecting with another. All the things that you deny yourself through your intolerable arrogance.

That is real, that is human, that is the heart where you only have a big gaping hole. You are just a blip - a fantastically creative one - but at the end of the day, just a blip.

Note that we had intended to deliver this final chapter in a less confrontational and more gradual way through 'Alice' or another personality, but that the pettiness and housewifery of the recent arguments on the forum have convinced us that it is not worth expending further effort on this project.

bollocks. You knew you couldn't keep Metteyya's identity secret for much longer and denied of another persona for Metteyya to defend you had to give up.

The moral victory is ours.

 

[brain enclosed in flesh]

I love you, Snow Queen. All I can say about XIII/whatever is that from the first instant I laid eyes on one of his posts I knew he was the contrivance of immature insecurity. I can't help but feel sorry for him.

 

[preilemus]

hmm...

...


If progress was caused by rational men...

...

It would happen much quicker...




... I'm done

 

[Hawkeye]

Hmm,

I've been reading all the stuff you have posted. I found it quite interesting and it entertained me and I thank you for that. However, you do seem to be full of yourself and think you have an upper edge on other people who you assume are blinded by the MBTI system.

This is unfortunate as you have caused a barrier to appear between you and others. Abusing peoples trust is never a wise thing to do. I hope you are satisfied with your findings and that they prove useful to you in your lonely high tower.

 

[Thaklaar]

The "point" he was trying to make (or that he claims he was trying to make) was trite. If he had started an open and honest discussion around his concerns about this site and MTBI in general it wouldn't have lasted more than a few pages. That he had to construct this (looks back) crap, three and a half month "experiment" do do the same thing tells me he's a pretentious, manipulative little shit who's not worthy of the excellent dissections of his behavior I've seen posted here.

 

[Ulysses]

Manipulative and callous he may be, but does that also make him wrong?

 

[NoID10ts]

This place is sullied.

I don't trust any new members anymore. I was one of the first to try and make peace with XIII after my rant, even though, like snowqueen, I had my reservations.

But honestly, I felt guilty after the rant thread because I hate all this stupid fucking grandstanding and drama and in a moment of frustration I allowed myself to be pulled into it. I wanted out of it so I decided to make peace and let it go. My conscience is clear regardless of XIII's deceptions.

It's impossible to have any kind of productive relationship with these people because they will always set themselves up to never be wrong. They rig the game. For those of you who defend this bullshit, you can't afford to be this naive in life. The more seasoned among us will second that I'm sure.

It's too bad XIII isn't the only one like this that we have here.

I think I'm done with it.

 

[Thaklaar]

Manipulative and callous he may be, but does that also make him wrong?

How would you judge? His choice to use a three month long deception rather than an honest discussion makes it difficult for me to figure out exactly what he was trying to convince us of. Although, his imperious nature would have probably prevented useful discussion.

 

[Carnap]

hahaha! remember when Metteya called XIII intelligent? How convenient...

This all could have been expressed and discussed without the theatrics.

 

[snowqueen]

Manipulative and callous he may be, but does that also make him wrong?

He made only two points

- that the MBTI 16 types are not adequate to describe the nuances of personality of humans.

- that if you become too obsessed with 'being' your personality you lose the possibility of developing yourself in a free way.

Both these points have been made here frequently (and are worth making, I agree.)

The real problem is his faulty logic because his conclusion is "therefore the MBTI is a terrible system which enslaves and limits people and anyone who is interested in it or subscribes to it is condemning themselves to mediocrity."

If he had posted his thesis in a clear manner, it would have been torn to shreds pretty quickly - I mean, look around you - how many people on this forum do you see who are conformists, narrow-minded, timid thinkers?

Systems of categorisation are potentially dangerous because they can be used by others to create divisions and disadvantage - the thread on gifted children and the COMMAND thread debate that. It is perfectly possible that the MBTI could be used in that way and that is a valid debate to open.

So there was nothing particularly new or revelatory about what XIII was promoting and it could have been a very entertaining and literary exposition if XIII hadn't believed his own lies (his superiority). Actually the problem wasn't even the manipulation, deception and lying - it was that he could not cope with any dissent or engage outside of his planned course of action. His experiment was a failure because none of the personalities he created could actually interact with the people on this forum in a true human exchange - so they were never really a 'new' personality - they were always just an act. If they were real personalities he would have been able to interact with us. So underlying it all there still remained an isolated, egotistic, arrogant, narcissistic individual which no amount of false personalities could hide.

It's not necessarily a bad thing - I think lots of great artists are like that - but it's a very lonely place to be.

 

[Concojones]

XIII, Metteyya:

You made your point ages ago - in posting about experiments and MBTI limitations. Those posts were reasonably straightforward and were positively received, to your own surprise. You were ahead of plan - your plan. Our interest was awoken, and some of us intended to try some of your ideas.

At that point you could have aborted your 'cunning plan' and helped us discover whatever you were trying to show, by giving additional in-depth, thought-provoking info, personal stories, etc. In return, you'd have seen your advice in action.

Instead, you blindly stuck to your 'cunning plan', under the assumption 'the end justifies the means'. Fair enough, IF ONLY IT HAD WORKED. Has it? Just look at this forum's collapsing interest in your ideas. What better measure to track your results?

If at this point you're still thinking "I probably saved some people", I think you've missed my point. You need to change course, my dear.

 

[Ulysses]

Systems of categorisation are potentially dangerous because they can be used by others to create divisions and disadvantage - the thread on gifted children and the COMMAND thread debate that. It is perfectly possible that the MBTI could be used in that way and that is a valid debate to open.

That's the thing, you see. I haven't been involved in the XIII discussions as of late, so I am indifferent to how he proves his point so long as it is a valid point. I haven't read any of his posts in their entirety either, save for this one. XIII's logic might be flawed and the effectiveness of the MBTI system is open to debate, but as you've already mentioned, he/she has made two valid points. How many people on these forums have given up on developing their social skills after being told that they're introverted?

You also asked me how many conformists, narrow-minded and timid thinkers I see on these forums. I know I'm probably going to be shot for saying this, but to be honest, I see quite a few.

 

[snowqueen]

That's the thing, you see. I haven't been involved in the XIII discussions as of late, so I am indifferent to how he proves his point so long as it is a valid point. I haven't read any of his posts in their entirety either, save for this one. XIII's logic might be flawed and the effectiveness of the MBTI system is open to debate, but as you've already mentioned, he/she has made two valid points. How many people on these forums have given up on developing their social skills after being told that they're introverted?

You also asked me how many conformists, narrow-minded and timid thinkers I see on these forums. I know I'm probably going to be shot for saying this, but to be honest, I see quite a few.

Well I can't see the world through your eyes and we all interpret the world differently so fair enough. I wonder if you mistake caution for narrow-mindedness and timidity? Scepticism for conformity?

I don't know how many people have given up on developing their social skills as a result of doing MBTI but a good way to find out would be to start a thread and ask that question on the INTP section or the MBTI section. Open up a conversation, respectfully, with genuine interest and I'm quite sure some people will participate and a lively debate will ensue. If it's something you care about then there's nothing stopping you doing that. It's an interesting question.

But you have to remember that we are all different, we have the right to determine our own path in life (within the usual boundaries) and it isn't up to any of us to tell others how to lead their life. You have no idea what's good for another person. There are few universal answers. To work out what's good for you takes a lifetime, save your energy for that rather than judging others.

 

[Jesin]

That's the thing, you see. I haven't been involved in the XIII discussions as of late, so I am indifferent to how he proves his point so long as it is a valid point. I haven't read any of his posts in their entirety either, save for this one. XIII's logic might be flawed and the effectiveness of the MBTI system is open to debate, but as you've already mentioned, he/she has made two valid points.

Two valid points that many if not most people here already knew. And he caused how much trouble just to get across those simple points? He could have just stated those points in the first place, and that would be the end of it.

How many people on these forums have given up on developing their social skills after being told that they're introverted?

Umm, none?

 

[Ulysses]

I wonder if you mistake caution for narrow-mindedness and timidity? Scepticism for conformity?

Not at all. See the quote below.

How many people on these forums have given up on developing their social skills after being told that they're introverted?

Umm, none?

 

[snowqueen]

[snowqueen fails to see how Jesin's answer is conformist, narrow-minded or sceptical - flippant, jokey maybe]

Isn't 'flippant' a fantastic word when you say it over a few times? very satisfying on the lips, fun to say.

Another favourite of mine is 'gusset'.

 

[Felan]

Anyone that rambles long enough is bound to hit on a good thought now and then. If clichés are your thing than even a broken clock is right twice a day (unless it's digital).

MBTI offers an opportunity to see the strengths and weaknesses in how you process information and interact with others. I think sometimes people do tend to become more of whatever type they test as and I actively *try* to nudge them away from such pursuits. If any such persons exist here their "problem" (if it is really even that) is far less severe than XIII's. He suffers the exact problem he espouses against, only in reverse, he is in flight from understanding his nature. Unfortunately by taking on poorly executed and ham-fisted exaggerations of other personalities, actually I would call them anti-personalities, he deprives himself of any real growth.

I found XIII interesting at first, till the meltdown where he degenerated into a low replacing a bunch of posts with "-". Nor did I find his portrayal of the emotional touchy feely XIII2 very convincing but thought it a work in progress. I even offered an observation on what I perceived was a flaw in his language, specifically XIII2 used a lot of conditional and qualifying terms.

He corrected that flaw in his language but suffered other flaws, like the excessive use of the objectifying 'feelings' rather a more natural expression of emotion. I didn't make that observation, interested in whether he would discern it himself. I was curious to see where he went with it and how it developed.

I was, no am, disappointed that this whole thing wasn't a personal journey that XIII was making for himself. Like his portrayal the emotional person or his portrayal of a spiritual person or his portrayal of one who would seek to teach and elevate his fellow, XIII is nothing more than the caricature.

But that is merely my unfired clay impression. I haven't enjoyed his posts for quite awhile and wouldn't be saddened if he found else-haunts. I doubt that will be the case though, for even his departure is increasingly a burlesque "Where's Waldo".

 

[cheese]

- places self at Felan's feet -




*edit
I think stating points isn't always enough. Sometimes these things need to be shown - especially if the audience is narrow-minded, as that will prevent the point from coming home through a mere intellectual medium. (This is not in defence of XIII, but in the showing vs stating point.)

Again it seems to me that perspective is the only answer here. Narrow-minded people probably have no way of perceiving their limitations. Assuming XIII truly had discovered some great truth, and we were all rolling about blind in the muck, it would be pointless for us to attempt to prove him wrong within our flawed and inadequate framework. However this seems to be what we're doing. I'm not making a judgement on this framework - I have no way of doing that accurately - it's just that this doesn't make sense to me. We're applying a cookie mould to a pair of scissors. (That's quite possibly a terrible analogy.)

I don't seem to be very good at human/emotional things, and seeing the deep truth behind blah blah - I can't even express it (plus I'm late for work). This argument just doesn't work logically to me. I can't see ways of proving either side is right, and both are using arguments that only make sense in the context of that side's accuracy to demolish the other.

Assuming the forumers' framework is correct - perhaps railing at XIII and asking him to consider morals and values etc is the right way of getting at the human soul "we know is within". There just doesn't seem any way of proving the accuracy of this framework - or either framework. The problem isn't mere factual inconsistency - it's the collision of entire systems, each consisting of interdependent 'facts' that help support each other, yet we seem be using proofs built up in one to dismiss the other, disregarding the incompatible axioms in both.

I suppose the only thing anyone can do is work with what they have. It would just be nice if we could recognise we're playing with incommensurable perspectives here, and that self-referential, circular arguments are simply insufficient proof for the other party.


Now this seems like a totally pointless post, but dammit I'm doing it anyway.

 

[echoplex]

Ha. Discordia indeed.

I hope this person finds happiness and peace in his life. I hope he can learn to appreciate others' views better than he has seemed to here. I imagine doing so would make him a far happier person. If this person is truly a sick person who is to be felt sorry for, then I see no reason to launch insults and blame at him. In fact, I can see how doing so may continue to inspire his negative self-expression. Offering encouragement and forgiveness would ultimately be the right course of action, although criticism is also understandable. Remember, even a "troll" has a real person behind it.

Also, I hope that this forum can take something positive from this. I think he actually made some good points, even if he made them in a bad way. I was able to take some positive from it, although I can understand the negative as well.

It would actually be nice to see his argument(s) discussed in a simpler, more direct and less metaphorical manner than the way he presented them.

 

[Sapphire Harp]

Assuming XIII truly had discovered some great truth, and we were all rolling about blind in the muck, it would be pointless for us to attempt to prove him wrong within our flawed and inadequate framework. However this seems to be what we're doing. I'm not making a judgement on this framework - I have no way of doing that accurately - it's just that this doesn't make sense to me. We're applying a cookie mould to a pair of scissors.

I can acknowledge that as a possibility, Cheese... but I don't really believe it because it runs against my experience. To me, it seems like every revelation I find gets me to a finer level of simplicity... Things get easier, simpler, less serious, more open...

To put it another way, I expect to find great truths to be like someone sitting in the middle of a vast glade and can see a long way...

XIII just seems like an obstinate clam hiding in a labyrinth...

But Cheese, don't knock your own posts... It's still worth it to try, even if the rubix cube of your thoughts is still all mixed up. I think the rest of us can discern what you're getting at. We certainly have enough common ground on this forum to do it.
​

 

[snowqueen]

- places self at Felan's feet -

ditto!

*edit
I think stating points isn't always enough. Sometimes these things need to be shown - especially if the audience is narrow-minded, as that will prevent the point from coming home through a mere intellectual medium. (This is not in defence of XIII, but in the showing vs stating point.)

I agree absolutely - and that is what makes brilliant fiction, drama and art. But I prefer to be able to choose it not have it imposed upon me. It's like Shakespeare turning up at my house uninvited and spouting Othello to me to warn me about jealousy but refusing to stop and tell me whether he likes sugar in his tea and whether he finds people who don't know the difference between there and their as irritating as I do!


A

Assuming the forumers' framework is correct - perhaps railing at XIII and asking him to consider morals and values etc is the right way of getting at the human soul "we know is within".

I don't really care about XIII - he lost that privilege long ago. I care about the people on this forum who have shown me kindness and acceptance. Make no mistake - XIII had only contempt for us. His profile image during the whole COMMAND thread was the quote from his previous 'leaving' post where he stated just that. I wrote that tirade for the pure literary pleasure - it seemed a fitting 'requiem'. It was 'scissors' for his 'scissors' to use your metaphor. I know it seems harsh and cynical to some of you, but sometimes you have to stand up against those who would crush and control us.

I suppose the only thing anyone can do is work with what they have. It would just be nice if we could recognise we're playing with incommensurable perspectives here, and that self-referential, circular arguments are simply insufficient proof for the other party.

If that's what you can produce when you're in a rush then I wouldn't worry about incoherence. That is beautifully expressed.

I can acknowledge that as a possibility, Cheese... but I don't really believe it because it runs against my experience. To me, it seems like every revelation I find gets me to a finer level of simplicity... Things get easier, simpler, less serious, more open...​

This old lady agrees.

 

[Concojones]

I don't really believe it [XIII having discovered a great truth] because it runs against my experience. To me, it seems like every revelation I find gets me to a finer level of simplicity... Things get easier, simpler, less serious, more open...

If you look through the 'theatrics' to what XIII is really saying, it's simple:
"play different roles; it expands your personality". That's really all there is.

 

[Felan]

If you look through the 'theatrics' to what XIII is really saying, it's simple:
"play different roles; it expands your personality". That's really all there is.

If I see someone put the biggest reddest juiciest strawberry in a bucket of shit, I've lost all my appetite for that strawberry. Saying I should still value that strawberry is lunacy.