Temporary Closure - discussion

[loveofreason]

The Forum has been temporarily closed to new members.

http://www.intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=3393

Feel free to discuss your views on the matter, or just comment.

 

[Hawkeye]

While it's a shame it has come to this I think it was the best thing to do.

 

[fullerene]

thirded... it's a shame, but I think it's quite a good idea...

 

[NoID10ts]

It is unfortunate that it came to this, but I think it was a good idea in order to weed out the problems already here and reestablish equilibrium.

I'm sure we are about to hear some tirades on the travesty of free speech rights and intolerance here. But why should we all have to suffer assholes simply for their right to be assholes? Let them be assholes somewhere else.

 

[Artifice Orisit]

The right to free speech comes with the responsibility to use it wisely.

 

[Hawkeye]

Ok,

Haruhi joined the IRC and asked me to post this.

[03:50] <haruhi> for being the same person who accused me of being XIII
[03:50] <haruhi> wtf.
[03:50] <Latro> that would make sense to me, actually
[03:50] <Latro> sounds like something face would do
[03:51] <Hawkeye> Either way, you are causing problems on the forum.
[03:51] <Latro> accuse himself of being XIII
[03:51] <Latro> thus covering himself, and creating tension
[03:51] <Latro> very face-esque
[03:51] <haruhi> But, I'm not face
[03:51] <haruhi> and I have not broken rules
[03:51] <Hawkeye> it doesn't matter
[03:51] <Hawkeye> you are a troll
[03:51] <haruhi> it does, because that's the stated ban reason
[03:51] <haruhi> no, I'm not
[03:52] <Latro> I admittedly didn't see much trolling
[03:52] *** Venture quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
[03:52] <Latro> I wouldn't be surprised if haruhi was face
[03:52] <haruhi> But, I"m not
[03:52] <Latro> but I still didn't see much trolling
[03:52] <Latro> sorry, there's no evidence for me to say that
[03:52] <Latro> I AM, however, curious if lor has IPs
[03:52] <Latro> and connected the two of you that way
[03:52] <haruhi> She can't, because I use my isp all the time
[03:52] <haruhi> I'm happy for her to check
[03:52] <Latro> ...
[03:53] <Latro> it's very easy to get IPs, haruhi
[03:53] <haruhi> yes, but I"m saying she can't have that evidence
[03:53] <Hawkeye> its also easy to mask them...
[03:53] <haruhi> like you said she might
[03:53] <haruhi> yes, but I'm not facetiouspersona
[03:54] <Hawkeye> your writing style is simlar to face's yet your goals are more like XIII's
[03:54] <haruhi> I did that a little to annoy him, after he made that thread about me
[03:54] <haruhi> but I'm not him
[03:55] <haruhi> wait, he didn't make the thread
[03:55] <haruhi> he just spammed it to death
[03:55] <Hawkeye> on the forum it takes you 5 mins to discover who XIII is
[03:55] <haruhi> Because I was instantly accused of being him
[03:56] <haruhi> yes
[03:56] *** gigglegirl (Val@ecnet-FD4C670.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net) left ()
[03:56] <haruhi> The fact of the matter is, I'm not facetiouspersona
[03:56] <haruhi> so there has been a mistake
[03:56] <Hawkeye> you couldn't find all the information in 5 mins
[03:56] <haruhi> because that was the stated reason for the ban
[03:56] <haruhi> I read through the old threads, and I"ve been lurking for 2 weeks
[03:57] <Hawkeye> I still think you are XIII
[03:58] <haruhi> And you think XIII is face?
[03:58] <Hawkeye> nope
[03:58] <haruhi> then my stated reason for ban is incorrect
[03:58] <Hawkeye> quite possibly
[03:58] <Hawkeye> but, I'm not an admin
[03:58] <haruhi> I'm not XIII
[03:58] <haruhi> but that's irrelevant
[03:58] <Hawkeye> exactly
[03:59] <haruhi> Actually, fuck it
[03:59] <haruhi> Can somebody write this down?
[03:59] <haruhi> I'm going to confess
[04:00] <haruhi> if you post it in the ''temporary bans'' thread
[04:00] <haruhi> deal?
[04:00] <Glove> lol okay
[04:00] * Hawkeye will listen
[04:01] *** ihavesuccessfullypeed quit (Quit: mibbit.com: i need to pee again D
[04:01] <Hawkeye> awesome reason to quit xD
[04:02] *** buc|eat changed nick to bucolic
[04:03] <Hawkeye> the Japanese have two written dialects... lovely
[04:03] <haruhi> I am XIII, not facetiouspersona. I have been intentionally dropping references to face being XIII for the past day, and the link between Haruhi and XIII was already established. This was an attempt to create general confusion about identities, and paranoia amongst admins. I deliberately tried to make my writing style seem like facetiouspersona's, in order to exacerbate the situation. If you...
[04:03] <haruhi> ...want proof that I am XIII, and not face, observere the writing style of my earlier threads. Also observe that face tried to post through a proxy, but was banned. If he was me, he would not have been banned (because I was already successfully posting through a New York proxy, not that that's an achievment). Admins will be able to verify this information.
[04:04] <Hawkeye> Mmm
[04:04] <Hawkeye> that does follow my view
[04:04] <haruhi> Further verification: the proxy is located on White Plains
[04:04] <haruhi> IP: 208.185.17.7
[04:04] <haruhi> now please post that to the thread
[04:04] <Hawkeye> but then again, XIII did say I was unintelligent
[04:04] <Hawkeye> ^^
[04:04] <haruhi> lol
[04:04] <haruhi> fair play
[04:05] <haruhi> Glove, you doing it?
[04:05] <haruhi> or you, Hawkeye?
[04:05] <haruhi> I'm very glad that my plan has suceeded so spectacularly, but I can't let face take credit.
[04:05] <Hawkeye> If you want me too. Be warned however... Your ban may still stand for other reasons
[04:05] <haruhi> *succeeded
[04:05] <haruhi> yes
[04:05] <haruhi> I expect to stay banned
[04:05] <haruhi> please include that last sentence, as well
[04:05] <haruhi> thanks
[04:06] <haruhi> the one about credit
[04:06] <haruhi> and all the details
[04:06] <Hawkeye> I will, although I don't like that statement
[04:06] <haruhi> ok
[04:06] <haruhi> :-) You didn't write it
[04:06] <haruhi> put it in quotes, or summat
[04:07] <Hawkeye> I'll copy the entire Chat text
[04:07] <Glove> glad I got on irc
[04:07] <Hawkeye> ^^
[04:07] <Glove>
[04:07] <haruhi> Haruhi was quite masterful, no?
[04:07] <haruhi> yes
[04:07] <haruhi> yes, Haruhi was
[04:07] *** Glove quit (Quit: CGI:IRC)
[04:08] <haruhi> You posted it yet?


I have done this. Take what you will from it.

 

[Ogion]

Indeed Cognisant.

Ogion

 

[fullerene]

my main question is "what to do about troll-like characters in the future?" This all sort of lasted as long as it did because face was troll-like, but never able to be pinned down with solid, concrete evidence. Are we willing to tighten the "trolling" rules a little bit by clamping down on personal attacks? That is... he made plenty of them, in little parts of his posts--but never egregious enough to get himself banned. It seems like amending things so that those are tolerated a little less could help out quite a bit... but what does everyone else think?

edit: oops... I didn't see hawkeye when this was posted, sorry. This was not in response to it at all

 

[Red Mage]

@Hawkeye: That's the completely and utterly shitty thing about trolls is that there is no way they can "lose" and they always believe they've "won" somehow. In this instance, two of the most notorious trolls who were only kept around out of sake of being an open and free-thinking forum were banned. Big freaking deal, right? Nothing came of it. Sure, they had to close new membership, but that will come to pass. Sure, the quality of the forum has taken a hit, but that too will come to pass. I'm trying to reread that chatlog, especially the parts in red, but I fail to see how XIII or Face have "won" anything besides a permaban. They've only proven that they are sad little men with no lives.

 

[loveofreason]

Don't you just love a mastermind that has to blow his own trumpet?

 

[Toad]

fucking bastard pretended to be haruhi and made us think it was Face? That bastard...that dirty dirty bastard. My annoyance of him has now turned into intolerance.

 

[Felan]

I think I am most bothered by the ease with which two people can be so disruptive.

I am glad for their ban though.

 

[Red Mage]

That douche: "Hey there I'm someone new. No I'm not I'm Face! Haha! Oh my god you guys just fell for it! I can't fucking believe this shit. You guys are all so dumb! Srsly lol u gais r stoopid! I'm actually the brilliant and talented Mr. XIII!"

The rest of the forum: "Um, okay? How about a nice big permaban?" *goes on with life*

 

[Ermine]

It's a shame this ever had to happen.

Besides XIII, Haruhi, and Face being an extreme nuisance, we established members need to stop treating new members in such an openly suspicious manner. It's plain rude to suspect people before they do anything. Benefit of the doubt is the best option until something happens. Our suspicions may have merit, but I think such suspicions are best kept in PMs. I've observed that the more discussion and uproar there is about the disruptive members, the more they thrive. If the forum is going to win, we need to cut off their source of victory: our reaction. If we don't openly pay attention to them, they have no audience, no source of victory. Why can't we just keep quiet and report the disruptive member if something goes wrong and PM an admin?

 

[fullerene]

that's a hugely important thing, I think. When I started badgering citizen x (a bit) in that opening thread, I did it because a lot of people were suspicious. Hearing from other people, it came down to myself, anthile, lor, snowqueen, banana mango, and I think (though I can't remember) one or two other people--all of whom I knew (at the time) by name had expressed suspicion. I then googled all of the common phrases that someone looking for essays, like he said he would, would google, and never once did INTPf turn up within 10 pages. Then when I asked, his phrase concerning INTPf didn't turn up til the 13th page. I then looked at the "simple confirmation you're an INTP" thread sitting over in the lounge, where, it was not just that his second-example was "not-INTP"... but that it was saturated in arrogance. "hahahahah... silly man. I told you we'd be back in the car by exactly [this time]. You and your sub-INTP mind should have lilstened to your intellectual superior."

And all of that was combined with things he said, and the way he said them (which I would still prefer not to say so explicitly, since they're a nice weapon to have), in relation to what I had gathered on his personality in IRC, as well as the forum.



I'm not so much saying that to make excuses, but I realized that nobody else knew any of that (indeed, I couldn't really say it all because it involved other peoples' suspicions, which I didn't want to do without their consent at the time--I relaxed a bit for the sake of this post, though, since he seems to have gone inactive--but I won't forget him).... so it probably looked like I just had minor suspicions and jumped-the-gun on the poor, possibly-unsuspecting new person. Unfortunately, I think I opened pandora's box instead. I'm not sure whether everyone would have accused the next person of being xiii if they hadn't seen me do it there, but I still sorta feel bad about it nonetheless.

That said, I really like ermine's suggestion... if we're unsure of someone, I think we should PM lor about it. That way, people who draw a lot of suspicion will show up on her radar, and she can check up on it or keep a closer eye on them for trollish-personal-attacks or whatever else she does... but if it's only one person's suspicion, we won't chase off newcomers or make unnecessary enemies.

 

[echoplex]

So Harui (?) or whatever was XIII? omg, I'm sooooo shocked. What sucks is that they made such a valiant attempt to hide it. They didn't remind me of anyone else at all.

Yeah, this is all a shame. We could be getting legitimate new members to positively add to the forum, and instead we get someone just trying to settle a score with profile after profile. What's worse is that if this guy really wanted to contribute in a respectful way, he would be a very beneficial force to the forum. Oh well though.

And yeah, this is an understandable decision. I'm not really sure what it will accomplish though. A "troll" may just wait the period out, especially if it doesn't last long. And we'll be losing potential real new members.

At least this will give the Witch Hunt...I mean Introit forum a rest for a while.

 

[EloquentBohemian]

I don't think there is anything I could add to what has already been said.
Ermine, that is very well put, concise and excellent advice which I, for one, will follow.

 

[Kuu]

*facepalm*

Now I'm gonna have to do all the alien threads myself...

*shrugs*

Oh well, you know what they say: If you want something done, best to do it yourself.



PS. DON'T FEED THE TROLLS. Make that your mantra.

 

[fullerene]

by the looks of things, though, echo, we lost a few old members in the process.

I'm not sure how much I would expect a troll to "wait it out." I mean, a troll's end goal is to tear-down a message board/forum/whatever until there are no other active members, right? To do that, they insult people as much as they can get away with without being banned, be a general nuisance and annoyance, post lots of things that nobody cares about so that you have to search really hard to find topics you care about, etc. Not only would his general lockdown delay any new troll-entrances, but in the meantime, we'll all get to hear each others' thoughts without all the "noise." This would, I would think, make the people who are here care more about each other as the relationships develop, and therefore less likely to leave in the midst of borderline-rule-breaking posts.

I have no idea if this is what lor was thinking when she closed this place or not, but basically... while it seems like dead-time that a troll could just wait out, it seems to me that it's actually time where we can peacefully rebuild the damage that's been done, and further fortify ourselves against being chased away by indirect attacks all the time.

Ladies and gentlemen: it's time to get to know each other again

 

[echoplex]

PS. DON'T FEED THE TROLLS. Make that your mantra.

It's a good mantra, but I wonder, how can we always know who's a "troll"? In a time of increased suspicion, we may run the risk of not 'feeding' anyone who isn't already an established member. Plus, a "good" troll is usually able to hide their trollish nature.

EDIT: Good point, cryptonia. I suppose there is no perfect solution. Perhaps this is the best one available. Though I wouldn't assume all trolls' end goal is to tear it down in order to remove active members. I think many would be sad if the members left. Who else would they annoy? I think most just do it for fun/attention/power trip/whatever.

Of course, whether it's their goal or not, it's often the end result.

 

[fullerene]

ah... right, of course. I was going by that link that noddy put up..... er.... somewhere. It was www.webupon.com/Social-Networks/How-to-be-a-Troll.69719

 

[snowqueen]

The Forum has been temporarily closed to new members.

http://www.intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=3393

Feel free to discuss your views on the matter, or just comment.

Thank you lor. I totally support your decision. I'm sure it was a difficult one to make, but shows real leadership and commitment to the future of this forum.

It's 8.27 in the morning here in the UK and this is the best start to the day I could have woken up to.

'm not sure how much I would expect a troll to "wait it out." I mean, a troll's end goal is to tear-down a message board/forum/whatever until there are no other active members, right?

I agree. I think the advice 'ignore' simply doesn't work with someone as determined as the last 1/2/3/whatever seemed to be.

What happened is that the whole purpose/culture of this forum was being turned into what the troll/s wanted.

my main question is "what to do about troll-like characters in the future?"

I have been thinking about this a lot and I have some suggestions.

1. The main thing that needs to happen is that the purpose of the forum is maintained. That is fairly clear - it is for INTPs and their friends. On the troll thread one of the warnings was not to let people stay who are clearly not interested in the purpose of the board. Face repeatedly said s.he was not interested in INTP or MBTI. The 'personality destruction' thread was similarly right from the start not about INTP. In future anyone who says that should be told that while their opinion is perfectly valid, this forum is not the place to do it. There are plenty of boards for general discussion of MBTI there is no need to do it here. I am quite sure the admins can distinguish between real questions of this kind and trolling ones.

2. The next thing that needs to happen is for the culture of the forum to be restored. Now that is a little trickier but I think this place has been a sanctuary for INTPs - lor asked a while ago why these INTPs are here. Well it did seem that the people here were largely gentle souls (even if they dressed up as smoking beetles and pretended to be violent children). The forum was very welcoming, it was playful in places but it also hosted some remarkable personal discussions. For many people it felt like a sanctuary away from the difficulties we all face in daily life - btw it was one of the primary weapons of the trolls - playing on our insecurities and uncertainties about life - trying to make out we should all be different, better. As I think Cog said once - the Forum was like a nursery for helping INTPs back on their feet and to a point where they could begin to strengthen themselves.

The solution I would propose is that new posters are only allowed to post up to 5 posts a day until they reach 100 posts. The rationale for this is that it is likely to deter a troll who depends on being able to raise their postcount rapidly and likes to argue, very quickly brewing up a storm. This effectively means they have to wait 20 days until they can participate fully during which time they can establish their credibility. It could be less than 100 - 70 would be 2 weeks?

3. The third thing is that we remember that this is not a democracy. The admins control the forum for our benefit and safety and we need to accept their authority. We need to agree that all questions about the running of the board are addressed to the admins via pm. If the admin then wishes to open it to forum discussion it is up to them to open one. One of the worst ways the trolls have been using the forum and using other people on the forum is by arguing and getting people to argue with the admins which reduces their authority. If a troll sees any chink in that authority they will take advantage and divide and rule.

So I propose three rules which are automatically pm'd to new members (along with a welcome message along the line of Ogion's standard one). Please feel free to disagree or edit as you with - I am only trying to come up with some solutions.

1. The purpose of this forum is to host discussions between INTPs and their friends. While not all topics need to be directly related to INTP and MBTI, there is an expectation that members primary interest in being here is to meet other INTPs and their friends.

2. As a new member, you can post up to 5 posts a day until you reach xx posts. This is to allow you time to get the feel of the forum and for us to get to know you.

3. This forum has x admins called ..... The admins serve the forum by keeping the purpose and culture of the forum clear. If they think you are not respecting the purpose and culture of the forum they will let you know.

4. If there is something happening on the forum that you are unhappy about please pm one of the admins with your concern rather than raising it directly on the forum. The membership have agreed that it is not acceptable for members to start debates about the admins' management of the forum. We trust our admins and hope you will too. If there is an issue regarding the running of the forum pm an admin to request a thread being started to address the issue.

 

[Inappropriate Behavior]

I feel like the guy who leaves a party at 2 am only to find out the next day that strippers showed up at 2:05. Although in this case it seems I should be glad as the "strippers" were male.

In a manner of speaking.

And what the hell was I doing at a party anyway?

 

[Hawkeye]

Does this mean that Face's account is still banned (permanently)?

I mean I know the method used may not have been the best to notify you of who Haruhi really was but Face was right (as was I). The evidense was right under your noses yet you couldn't see it.

I personally think Face provides a spark to this forum and I enjoyed debating things with him/her.


To have Face permabanned for this doesn't seem fair regardless to whether you like him/her or not. It reminds me of the last forum I was on. Rules for one and different set for another.

 

[preilemus]

face made multiple accounts. it would be unfair NOT to permaban hir

 

[Anthile]

Does this mean that Face's account is still banned (permanently)?

I mean I know the method used may not have been the best to notify you of who Haruhi really was but Face was right (as was I). The evidense was right under your noses yet you couldn't see it.

I personally think Face provides a spark to this forum and I enjoyed debating things with him/her.


To have Face permabanned for this doesn't seem fair regardless to whether you like him/her or not. It reminds me of the last forum I was on. Rules for one and different set for another.

This posting gives me a headache.

 

[NoID10ts]

This posting gives me a headache.

Me too.

Maybe to new members, who haven't seen the whole picture and witnessed the decline of this place since Face first appeared, it seems unfair.

If you go back and read the original face banning thread, I believe the mods were right in their original assessment and this was after Face's 1,000 post mark, if I'm not mistaken. They were kind hearted and tolerant enough to let him come back and he did this kind of stuff again and again.

Face was a troll. I can't, for the life of me, see how people can't see that. He was a good troll, very subtle and manipulative. Look how much support he's rallied for himself time and time again. This speaks to the divisive nature of his presence here.

I guess the difficulty is that he did make serious contributions, but to what end? Did he care, or was he using a tactic of pushing then pulling back, pushing further then pulling back. He used the down times and serious posts to garner support for himself and shored it up through sweet little PM's and irc chats to make people think they were friends.

That way, when he pushes again, those friends of his cry foul on his behalf to the point of getting him back onto the forum. It's a brilliant tactic, but it's ultimate purpose is to destroy this place. Old members get frustrated and leave. New members get picked off through insults that erupt into angry posts that end up getting them banned. The mods can potentially become divided over what to do and again, some leave or become disgruntled. It's a game, and the game is won by taking down the forum and moving on to the next challenge.

But the sad thing is, I think he and XIII are too fixated on this place to give up and leave us alone. they will probably wait, maybe move somewhere else for the time being, but I suspect they will be back. Too much pride to leave it alone.

 

[Carnap]

So if I understand correctly, that stupid post about sex in the streets was a joke?

 

[cheese]

^It wasn't the main point, at least.

 

[Jennywocky]

While INTPs naturally disregard/distrust authority as a means to accomplish goals, I agree with SnowQueen in the sense of more social investment in LoR and the admins as a mechanism by which to protect and moderate the forum.

I mean, really... I can't imagine LoR abusing her power, and she usually goes in the opposite direction -- undermining authority that is legitimately hers in order to prevent herself from abusing said power. Unfortunately I think that has sometimes contributed to truly abusive members to taking advantage of her flexibility and kindness. Her judgment is pretty sound. If the community could rally around their admins and help them believe more in themselves and their perceptions regarding problem members, that would help weed out issues earlier.

On other forums (using vBulletin), we have the ability to check IP addresses. This is not foolproof obviously, but it's a big indicator in terms of verifying identities -- you can generally narrow down a geographic location for a particular poster, and some IPs can even be banned.

The big issue is simply that the group must somehow protect itself again problem members, because it should be clear now that just a few problem children have the ability to shut down the entire forum. Either authority has to be invested with more power and trust (to clamp down borders or just make decisions to cull out the wolves without lots of bitching from membership), or the members themselves have to be less susceptible to group tensions and ride things out steady.

I think the rules should be consistent too, they just have to be developed in a flexible way so that they cover as much ground as possible. Unfortunately, hard and fast rules will occasionally perhaps weed out some discussion/members who are a mixed bag or who toe the line; that's unfortunately a necessary evil in terms of creating a large safe social atmosphere for people, and members have to simply monitor themselves and determine what things are worth toeing the line for. There needs to be some social sensibilities kept in mind by some members, it's not just a free-for-all; what freedom we get usually gets balanced by the limitations we accept for the sake of the group.

Also, I think it is important to remember that this is just a sub-community, it does not have to be representative of the entire world. It's not like this forum has to be everything to everyone and be open to everyone. Groups are subsets of the whole, pulled together by common interest; and they're allowed to define themselves and not just include members who fit the definition but also allow other people the option to NOT fit and to go elsewhere. If someone doesn't fit the culture this forum has created, they are free to go look for a culture that better suits their particular needs and interests; this group is not obligated to change its rules or be more flexible just to accommodate every Joe, Duncan, Ariel, and Megan that meanders down the electronic highway. THere's no malice involved with this, it's just a matter of finding a place where one fits and not forcing oneself upon environments where one does not fit. INTP tendency to flex and a desire to not be elitist (except sometimes where it sneaks out in intellectual matters) sometimes prevents groups like this from feeling comfortable in having expectations and protecting its own borders out of necessity.

 

[Hawkeye]

This posting gives me a headache.

Perhaps I am just more patient and tolerant than than others.

Anyway, I'm not going to fight for the unban as it is not my place too. I just don't agree with it.

 

[snowqueen]

Also, I think it is important to remember that this is just a sub-community, it does not have to be representative of the entire world. It's not like this forum has to be everything to everyone and be open to everyone. Groups are subsets of the whole, pulled together by common interest; and they're allowed to define themselves and not just include members who fit the definition but also allow other people the option to NOT fit and to go elsewhere. If someone doesn't fit the culture this forum has created, they are free to go look for a culture that better suits their particular needs and interests; this group is not obligated to change its rules or be more flexible just to accommodate every Joe, Duncan, Ariel, and Megan that meanders down the electronic highway. THere's no malice involved with this, it's just a matter of finding a place where one fits and not forcing oneself upon environments where one does not fit. INTP tendency to flex and a desire to not be elitist (except sometimes where it sneaks out in intellectual matters) sometimes prevents groups like this from feeling comfortable in having expectations and protecting its own borders out of necessity.

Brilliantly expressed Jenny -thank you. This is really important to understand - if someone comes into my house I expect them to respect my rules - not that I have many - but I won't let people smoke in my house for example. If I go into my local pub I will still have to respect the wishes of the publican/owner and understand that I will be kicked out and banned if I cause disruption to the 'regulars'. There is nothing wrong with setting boundaries. Otherwise we could just change the name of the forum to anythinggoes.com

 

[Ogion]

Yes, very important points, snowqueena dn Jennywocky. Thanks for pointing them out.

Ogion

 

[Decaf]

I personally think Face provides a spark to this forum and I enjoyed debating things with him/her.

I'm not trying to expand my own importance, but I am a long time member of the forum and I'm not embarassed to say that Face, Cow, etc... were the reason I left again when I tried to come back in March. Maybe they provide a spark, but the culture had absolutely shifted for the worse. Yeah, I like to talk about MBTI, but with them around the only discussions I could get going or respond to were picked at in such a way that I lost all enthusiasm to contribute. Discussions were always about the same things over and over again and it was never interesting, just compelling. Threads used to lead to insight in a lot of cases, or at least a general comradery between ALL participants.

As a side note, I also was approached by Face in PMs with flattering comments I assume were with the hopes of turning me into one of his 'zombies'. Very well written and flattering. I could see how comments like that could quickly generate a kind of friendship between him and the recipient. I'm sorry, but I've been an admin on a couple forums and other mediums and that spark you talk of is the same flame that burns down your village.

If I were an admin on this forum, I probably would have started deleting the threads entirely that consisted of the kind of ruffage we started seeing everywhere.

____

-edit-

Here's my abbreviated guide to how to spot a troll...

If you receive PMs that say:
"You seem to be intelligent and handsome. These are a nice combination. Lucky you."

or

"I love your comments. They fascinate me! I hope you respond with something very interesting for me to consider."

They're probably a troll (yes, those are PMs I received from Face). I wouldn't be surprised if other members have received identical PMs.

I have received some very kind PMs from other members that I appreciate a great deal, but these made me uncomfortable. At first it generates a sense of kinship ("Hey, I wonder who this astute person is"), followed by a desire to keep them around. What made me uncomfortable was not readily apparent to me, but I started feeling like I should do something to return the favor of the supportive compliment. Once I recognized that, it made me feel shitty, the way it always feels when one has been used.

Not that I needed my ego stroked so much, but the summon Decaf thread did its work in reminding me of the good people who were still here and made this place worth coming back to.

Anyway, all that to say, if the forum doesn't defend itself from trolls with a vigor that self-preservation should instill, it is not strong enough to survive (by that I mean teamwork... not by becoming cynical like INTPc)

 

[snowqueen]

I'm not trying to expand my own importance, but I am a long time member of the forum and I'm not embarassed to say that Face, Cow, etc... were the reason I left again when I tried to come back in March.

but I've been an admin on a couple forums and other mediums and that spark you talk of is the same flame that burns down your village.

I hope the forum returns to being a place you'd want to stay in. And your experience is really interesting to read about.

 

[NoID10ts]

Well now I'm a little depressed. Since Face has been here, I only had a total of 2 PM's from him and they involved me calling him a dumbfuck. He was fairly polite about it, though.

*Sigh* the trolls don't even like me.

 

[Decaf]

Well now I'm a little depressed. Since Face has been here, I only had a total of 2 PM's from him and they involved me calling him a dumbfuck. He was fairly polite about it, though.

*Sigh* the trolls don't even like me.

I'd rather a troll hate me then see me as a good target for zombification. Makes me feel dirty. Maybe I should start being generally more antagonistic...

 

[Anthile]

I wonder how many of us got such PMs.

 

[Ogion]

Lol, i certainly didn't. (Seeing how i was the main enemy )

Ogion

 

[Decaf]

Lol, i certainly didn't. (Seeing how i was the main enemy )

Ogion

I didn't post that part of the second PM, but that one contained a negative reference towards you. I think he assumed my attempt at changing the tone of the chat thread was somehow not in agreement with you.

As if he could make me turn against the great and powerful Ogion

 

[EloquentBohemian]

All Hail the Great and Powerful Ogion!
May many virgins pass through his tent.

[seriously... you're doing a great job]

 

[Da Blob]

Well now I'm a little depressed. Since Face has been here, I only had a total of 2 PM's from him and they involved me calling him a dumbfuck. He was fairly polite about it, though.

*Sigh* the trolls don't even like me.

But I like you NOID10ts, but then I am just a lurker - not a troll. Somehow i got caught up in the negative 'spirit' that was going on in the forum about the time of Face's 1000th post. I just no longer 'fit in' here (my own fault I will admit) However, it does seem that anytime a group of people start accomplishing something, Chaos in one form or another arrives on the doorstep...

I do not know, perhaps a generic way of providing feedback to posts, one to five stars, If a new person gets nothing but one star ratings, s/he should take the hint and modify their communication style or content.
( Da Blob anticipates a one-star rating on this comment...)

 

[Ogion]

Ogion

 

[Auburn]

Discussions were always about the same things over and over again and it was never interesting, just compelling. Threads used to lead to insight in a lot of cases, or at least a general comradery between ALL participants.

*sigh*
....recently, I've felt it that way too. I log on now but just see the same things over and over - more issues with the forum, and more threads about them.
It's disheartening...

I'm really sorry I don't have the time/energy to read everything, nor any valuable insight...
I guess it's rather hypocritical of me... ):

 

[Decaf]

*sigh*
....recently, I've felt it that way too. I log on now but just see the same things over and over - more issues with the forum, and more threads about them.
It's disheartening...

I'm really sorry I don't have the time/energy to read everything, nor any valuable insight...
I guess it's rather hypocritical of me... ):

On the contrary. I went through months of that lurking (and sometimes outright avoiding the forum). Its now our job to fix what someone else broke. It'll be tough, but the whole point is that now we make it better and stronger for the experience. This forum, if treated with the love of its members, will become stronger after having gone through this (as it will when it goes through the trials that await it).

Maybe what we need is a holiday of shouting. For one whole day we all moan about what we all went through and then we lock all these threads and move on. Who's with me?

 

[NoID10ts]

But I like you NOID10ts, but then I am just a lurker - not a troll. Somehow i got caught up in the negative 'spirit' that was going on in the forum about the time of Face's 1000th post. I just no longer 'fit in' here (my own fault I will admit) However, it does seem that anytime a group of people start accomplishing something, Chaos in one form or another arrives on the doorstep...

I do not know, perhaps a generic way of providing feedback to posts, one to five stars, If a new person gets nothing but one star ratings, s/he should take the hint and modify their communication style or content.
( Da Blob anticipates a one-star rating on this comment...)

I never perceived you as a troll Blob, at all. We may have had our differences, but I know that you are sincere and aren't trying to undermine the forum. In hindsight, I was disrespectful towards you and I regret that. Obviously, spiritual issues tend to be a hot button in my current circumstances.

You have just as much right to be here as anyone else, you haven't violated any rules of the forum that I am aware of, and it's a shame to think that I had a part in making you feel like you had to be a lurker.

*sigh* ....it seems like every time I log on now I see the same things over and over - more issues with the forum, and more threads about them. It's rather disheartening really...

That's the point of the trolling. It's designed to divert attention away from the whole point of the forum. The purpose of this forum is to give INTP's a place to congregate, socialize, and discuss the many issues that are of interest to us. The trolling has subverted that and made us do nothing but focus on the trolls and the state of the forum in general.

But now measures are being taken to correct course and go back to normal. I think that's where this place is headed again.

I hope.

 

[fullerene]

Auburn, we sort of need you here, now. You bring sensitivity and a drive to get to know individual people that's sorely lacking everywhere else, and knowledge of the cognitive functions second only to decaf. You've also creativity and artistic talent that work wonders (collage of the forum members, anyone? And don't act like I didn't see that yin-yang think you drew ) in a situation like this. I won't say what will force you to come and help, but I know you could still do good things here, and I think that you might be irreplacable in that regard .

 

[Ogion]

*sigh*
....recently, I've felt it that way too. I log on now but just see the same things over and over - more issues with the forum, and more threads about them.
It's disheartening...

I'm really sorry I don't have the time/energy to read everything, nor any valuable insight...
I guess it's rather hypocritical of me... ):

And the posts in this thread are really encouraging (for me, as i really doubted my 'position' in this forum, and prolly for a lot of other people)

Ogion

 

[flow]

I'm pleased with the handling of this terrible situation, I'm sure more trolls will eventually follow... Whatever. We will overcome!

 

[Decaf]

I'm pleased with the handling of this terrible situation, I'm sure more trolls will eventually follow... Whatever. We will overcome!

Fool me once, shame on... you. Fool me... can't get fooled again!