Stranded in university

[Nawyrus]

I'm getting disconnected from reality. No practical subject holds any interest in me anymore. Fear used to strike me at the last moment, so I used to get things done, like studying. Now I just can't, The Wall is too high as you can see. A portentous blockade!

It is becoming sadly comical. I've had 3 days to study for a test, weekend, but I just couldn't. It seems like a self-fulfilling negative prophecy, I was expecting that. Instead, I was reading the marvellous Moby Dick, and a bit of The Catcher in the Rye, now I'm obsessed with this kind of literary escapism.

The events just followed naturally, and 2 hours before the test I thought, well, it is too late, I won't go. Not nearly a rational outcome, since I've been going to this class every Monday, 4 hours of suffering and writing, for what? Not even going to the damn exam! The decision itself is alright, since I would get a nice zero, in homage to my lack of effort, without the support of the beautiful rote memorization.

The simple minded motivation that drives all the humanity is now completely gone. I refuse to do things motivated by fear, or by an undeserving instinct to compete and be on top, or by accepting the flock's path. In fact, I abominate any kind of trials, toils and tribulations, whatsoever. Even my opinions are not strong anymore, it seems foolish to be hugged by hard convictions.

But no, I have to achieve, I have to graduate, I need ambitions, I can't underperform in relation to my family pattern. Otherwise I will be a beggar, people say. I suppose I would be rather happy with the money a low life job can provide, as long as I maintain a necessary level of isolation and intellectual stimulation, a dark room with a good computer. As long as I keep poetry in the soul. Ironically, I don't see myself dropping out from this hellish course. I feel stranded, living a lie for a certain comfort, social status, and a greatly possible future regret.

 

[ApostateAbe]

I suggest you quit college for a while. Do your best to find a job. You will fail because of the bad economy and your lack of qualifications, but that is all according to plan. Move back in with your parents and keep looking for a job. Fast food joints will turn you down, but you will find a job as a night janitor. You won't be able to stand the hours and the poor pay. Get fired from your job because you didn't finish your rounds twice. Your parents will nag you to go back to college, and you won't be able to stand it, so move out and live in your car. Eat from soup kitchens and churches, and read at night using the light in your car. Then go to a trade school or community college, and choose an economical career path.

It may seem like I am joking, but such a course of action is far better than continuing on your current course. Failing courses is burning down bridges, because it stays on your records, and you gain debt to boot. It really is difficult to get motivated to succeed in school just by willing it. You need life to kick you in the ass, first.

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

Put a teaspoon of cement in your next coffee and harden up.

 

[downsowf]

I feel your pain brother. I remember taking classes in undergrad that were requirements, or that ended up being stupid, and just not caring anymore. I could've just dropped the classes but instead ended up with bad grades. It took a few reality checks to get my act together. It took me a little while to find what I was interested in, and once you find your interest, the motivation to learn that subject will naturally follow.

And other times, you become disenfranchised with the whole enterprise of a college education in general, and perhaps want to rebel. I think this is where lack of motivation is coming from. The absurdity of the structure, and the kind of "education" the college alleges to offer. It's not supposed to be easy. You're going to have to search for your interest, and you're going to have to take some shitty courses. Luckily, I had a professor who I followed all through college. He was probably my saving grace from me not wanting to drop out after my first year.

University can open your eyes and change your life, but it has to be a proactive decision on your part. I've been in your spot, and I know next semester you'll be on top, not for the sake of being on top, but because you definitely hold yourself to a certain standard or else you wouldn't care so much.. Good luck dude.

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

When I was five years old I made a business with the other 5 year olds in the neighborhood. The business involved digging dirt, putting dirt in plastic bags, knocking on doors and attempting to sell the dirt to the home owners. Lets just say we did not sell much dirt.

 

[SpaceYeti]

I dropped out of college twice. I simply don't think I'm made for typical book learnin'. Not the way the current system says I have to do it, anyhow. I respect anyone who does do it for showing that they're proficient in whatever area, but I don't have the patience for the boring BS when I could be studying my major instead.

 

[kantor1003]

I've been in your spot, and I know next semester you'll be on top

I wouldn't be too sure about that. I'm almost three years in and it only seems to be getting worse - feeling disconnected*, confused, anxious and at times scared. Often reading completely unrelated books motivated by, among many reasons but with this of particular relevance to this post, a sort of escapism, as the op put it (was not the biggest fan of the catcher in the rye). It's not sure that it will get better within the first few years at all. For me it's been like being stuck in a form of existential crisis for the last few years, with the intensity of it gradually increasing. Perhaps it's workings is like that of gangrene.

* I started working out 3 times a week in an attempt to ground myself, connect more (cure the at times overly assertive, and more and more imposing feeling of disconnection), having something heavy and real pressing down on my back I supposed, would help with this. It didn't.

In fact, I abominate any kind of trials, toils and tribulations, whatsoever.

For my part, I abominate all honorable respectable toils, trials, and tribulations of every kind whatsoever

What came first, the chicken or the egg?

 

[Minuend]

ApAbe is has very good advice. If there's no motivation to study, why do it? I wasted a few years in school because I thought I had to, without any direction. Took some time off while working and saving up money. Now my motivation is existent. People, who tell you to study, are too preoccupied with social status. A "normal" job pays well enough to cover heaps of books and games. You can be perfectly happy having a normal job if you put your mind to it.

Is it really that difficult to get a job, tho?

 

[downsowf]

I wouldn't be too sure about that. I'm almost three years in and it only seems to be getting worse - feeling disconnected*, confused, anxious and at times scared. Often reading completely unrelated books motivated by, among many reasons but with this of particular relevance to this post, a sort of escapism, as the op put it (was not the biggest fan of the catcher in the rye). It's not sure that it will get better within the first few years at all. For me it's been like being stuck in a form of existential crisis for the last few years, with the intensity of it gradually increasing. Perhaps it's workings is like that of gangrene.

I get what you're saying. Just trying to give the kid some words of encouragement. There were many times in my life I wanted to run away, quit, forsake the world, etc... Once you start thinking that it's alright to not finish the task, this could quickly turn into a life motto. University is not for some people. I get that. Better to cut your losses. The satisfaction he will get from graduating/accomplishing the task will far outweigh all the shitty times he's having right now. It's not easy. No one said it should be. But try going out in the real world right now, finding a job, and see how happy you'll be in that situation. Sometimes it just takes perspective.

 

[Kuu]

Couldn't have said it better myself. This describes perfectly the last 3 years of my 'life'. At least you get enough concentration power for literary escapism...

Though I wouldn't call it a disconnection from realty: nothing could be further from the truth. It is actually reconnecting to reality, getting tired of the farce that is western civilization...

 

[thelithiumcat]

I can relate to some of the above.

Escapism... I find myself doing this all the time. For a bit of background... I've been very... isolated in my grammar school years so that even if I do want to talk to other people I treat it as a new, unusual situation with no discerned rules or set reactions which work for me... Anyway, I think that's the reason why I've become quite so autonomous; I treat most issues as something for me to solve. This leads to me having more difficulty than most in doing work because (I presume) they can reference friends and I end up with huge mental blocks. The work becomes a pressure so I've started avoiding it and escaping from it; particularly from school whenever I have an authorised absence.

It's not just work.... it's also degree course choice. I don't feel motivation for any degree. I then take examples of experiences from my current subjects to tell myself why I wouldn't be able to do the degree (or wouldn't have the motivation or heartfelt passion to do it). My indecision's lead to it being pretty much too late to apply this year (at least for courses of a high enough level for me to consider doing - I am aware that my perspective of my abilities is pretty skewed and so I should aim higher, not that I don't already) so I feel trapped which further hinders motivation. It's not that I don't like to do things (or don't know that I need to do them), but I put them off and become more pressured from not doing them.

The lack of motivation is a big factor in my predictions of how things will turn out for me in foreseen situations. I find myself asking how a simple question of degree choice becomes such a complicated issue. It might be an existential crisis, but I'm not sure I understand the term. I feel that I am going to end up stranded until I give up on the idea of a degree and get on with whatever I want to do at the time... because doing things the system's way doesn't seem to work for me.

Getting a job sounds all well and good, but it's another huge mental obstacle for me, supported by a lack of experience. I'm far too.... for lack of a better word... polite. Asking for a job to me sounds rather presumptuous. Freelance sounds alright but then there's the even worse idea of asking someone for payment.

Motivation, information and direction would be useful here, it seems.

 

[pjoa09]

I can relate to some of the above.

Escapism... I find myself doing this all the time. For a bit of background... I've been very... isolated in my grammar school years so that even if I do want to talk to other people I treat it as a new, unusual situation with no discerned rules or set reactions which work for me... Anyway, I think that's the reason why I've become quite so autonomous; I treat most issues as something for me to solve. This leads to me having more difficulty than most in doing work because (I presume) they can reference friends and I end up with huge mental blocks. The work becomes a pressure so I've started avoiding it and escaping from it; particularly from school whenever I have an authorised absence.

It's not just work.... it's also degree course choice. I don't feel motivation for any degree. I then take examples of experiences from my current subjects to tell myself why I wouldn't be able to do the degree (or wouldn't have the motivation or heartfelt passion to do it). My indecision's lead to it being pretty much too late to apply this year (at least for courses of a high enough level for me to consider doing - I am aware that my perspective of my abilities is pretty skewed and so I should aim higher, not that I don't already) so I feel trapped which further hinders motivation. It's not that I don't like to do things (or don't know that I need to do them), but I put them off and become more pressured from not doing them.

The lack of motivation is a big factor in my predictions of how things will turn out for me in foreseen situations. I find myself asking how a simple question of degree choice becomes such a complicated issue. It might be an existential crisis, but I'm not sure I understand the term. I feel that I am going to end up stranded until I give up on the idea of a degree and get on with whatever I want to do at the time... because doing things the system's way doesn't seem to work for me.

Getting a job sounds all well and good, but it's another huge mental obstacle for me, supported by a lack of experience. I'm far too.... for lack of a better word... polite. Asking for a job to me sounds rather presumptuous. Freelance sounds alright but then there's the even worse idea of asking someone for payment.

Motivation, information and direction would be useful here, it seems.

A bad idea but a retail business is easy to ask for payment. Depending on how well you sell it might not be that bad. But it is difficult to find something cheap and sell for a whole lot more. Probably in isolated countries or cities it might work. This day and age has been far too rigorous for such businesses to prosper.

 

[digital angel]

Where do you see yourself? What do you want to be? Do you have an answer to these questions? If not, did you have one at one time? If you did have an answer(s) to the aforementioned questions, why don't you have answers now?

 

[Nawyrus]

I get what you're saying. Just trying to give the kid some words of encouragement. There were many times in my life I wanted to run away, quit, forsake the world, etc... Once you start thinking that it's alright to not finish the task, this could quickly turn into a life motto. University is not for some people.

As I heard in some Dawn of War game: "The acceptance of defeat is an invitation for its repetition." I usually finish what I start or what I give my word, but school is a different situation, there failure is coming in masses. Today I haven't gone to another exam, slept the entire day.

It hasn't always been like that, in my first year in university I was among the top 10% or less, in perfomance. Back then, I was full of illusions, but already disgusted. Then in the second year I requested a leave of absence for a semester, but family pressure was so annoying that I ended up coming back. Next one, I overachieved. Then after that I locked up again the course. Repeated the cycle and got horrible results but went until the end, and this is continuing till today.

Some facts, I'm in a top institution's chemical engineering course and here in Brazil, it is public, although hard to get in. I'm not paying to study. It is in my city, so I'm not out from my home or losing money. I'm not in risk of being kicked out for now. Abandoning this course seems like madness.

Where do you see yourself? What do you want to be? Do you have an answer to these questions? If not, did you have one at one time? If you did have an answer(s) to the aforementioned questions, why don't you have answers now?

No, but it seems where my life is going may be where I don't wan't to be.

 

[downsowf]

Today I haven't gone to another exam, slept the entire day.

Take your next exam. You'll feel better about yourself after you take it. I can promise you that.

hasn't always been like that, in my first year in university I was among the top 10% or less, in perfomance. Back then, I was full of illusions, but already disgusted. Then in the second year I requested a leave of absence for a semester, but family pressure was so annoying that I ended up coming back. Next one, I overachieved. Then after that I locked up again the course. Repeated the cycle and got horrible results but went until the end, and this is continuing till today.

It sounds like you put a lot of pressure on yourself, give maximum effort one semester, and then get burned out the next. Take some "easier courses" next semester, gain some balance in your life, or maybe take courses completely different than what your major is. Apparently, you like fiction or literature in general. Perhaps all you need is a change to spark your intellectual excitement again.

facts, I'm in a top institution's chemical engineering course and here in Brazil, it is public, although hard to get in. I'm not paying to study. It is in my city, so I'm not out from my home or losing money. I'm not in risk of being kicked out for now. Abandoning this course seems like madness.

That's a great opportunity you have. You obviously recognize this. I don't know how it is for other people, but for me it is harder to go back to something once you've been away from it. My focus and discipline need to remain with whatever it is I'm involved with at the time. I'm not sure if I would have been able to finish college if I took a break. It probably would've been a permanent break. You might be different.

Again, good luck. My vote would be for you to stay in university and stick it out. You probably only have a few years left (if that) which is nothing in the grand scheme of things. Having a permanent job is when you have to worry. I figure I'll switch jobs every few years because of boredom after I finish grad school. However, having my degree will give me options to what kind of job I want to switch to (at least that's the hope).

 

[digital angel]

It does sound like you recognize that you're in a good institution and that you've done well. You can still do well. A degree in chemical engineering is quite a feat.

Like Downsowf, I vote that you should stay in the program(of course, the decision is yours to make). Perhaps you can take one less course or two per quarter or semester for a bit. Let us know how you do.

 

[Nawyrus]

Last day in the bus I was struck by an interesting thought, relevant to my signature. Conscience itself may be crippling to someone's capability to stay on the rails and do whatever is expected, specially when everything seems to make no sense. If you've never questioned anything and always had an easy time accepting ideas from others, followed the easy way, acted to impress/please people, the chances you will be a highly productive and "happy" individual are elevated. I'm aware and have questioned things that I'm sure most people never will in their entire lives. Maybe that is my wound. Right now, the only thing that destroys any kind of joy in me is university.

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

Last day in the bus I was struck by an interesting thought, relevant to my signature. Conscience itself may be crippling to someone's capability to stay on the rails and do whatever is expected, specially when everything seems to make no sense. If you've never questioned anything and always had an easy time accepting ideas from others, followed the easy way, acted to impress/please people, the chances you will be a highly productive and "happy" individual are elevated. I'm aware and have questioned things that I'm sure most people never will in their entire lives. Maybe that is my wound. Right now, the only thing that destroys any kind of joy in me is university.

Unless you're specifically studying hard science or engineering, university is merely an indoctrination institution. Though, with that said, people whom are fond of the ideas that the university puts forward are the one generally attending. Ideas are not challenged in any meaningful way and people attend to hear conformation about the things they already believe in. The result is the production of intellectuals. People who are specifically trained in producing ideas for the consumption of people like themselves. They may think they are special, unique, sophisticated, intelligent and above the rest of society but they're not. They value ideas for idea's sake. As if all ideas are equal in merit and equally correct. In reality this is not the case. The merit of ideas are not equal and ideas are either correct or they're not correct. Stupid ideas generally become popular and then are championed by the media and politicians. People such as myself, trained in ratiocination, are left to deal with this nonsense produced by intellectuals engaging in mental masturbation.

In conclusion I would like to state if you're not studying hard science or engineering and dislike the nonsense that these people produce by means of mental masturbation, you're not going to particularly enjoy university.

P.S. Actually there is something funny about this. They like portray themselves as anti status-quo but they're precisely the people who are always attempting to validate the status-quo or expand upon the status-quo.

 

[kantor1003]

I'm not sure whether I agree on you regarding ideas and with them either being correct or false as I think it greatly depends on areas of study, discourse or field of inquiry. If one has an idea, for instance, about a piece of art (either in evaluating it's composition or in creating), it is more difficult to speak in terms of good and bad because the criteria with which to judge by are so wast when dealing with subjects, or perception if you will, in addition to what many would call objective reality, instead of, for instance physics, where you, optimally, only have to see to what extent an idea line up with observable reality. With that said I'm at a university studying something that falls under "soft science". There are certain subjects pertaining to the field I'm studying that seems to be less of an intellectual masturbatory exercise in that they actually do follow the scientific method to some extent and produce something more than mere fancy written speculation at best, but overall I agree with your notion that it is indeed "a production of intellectuals" and "people who are specifically trained in producing ideas for the consumption of people like themselves", even though I think I'm far from qualified, or knowledgable enough, to make this, arguably presumptuous, judgment (I still do though). Great post Proxy (you gave me some food for thought) and I also, more specifically, really liked your PS.
I've recently have been arguing quite a lot regarding the merits of what I study with a fellow student, and it have been quite a few fruitful discussions even if perhaps the only value they have for me is "the idea for it's own sake".

 

[pjoa09]

Unless you're specifically studying hard science or engineering, university is merely an indoctrination institution. Though, with that said, people whom are fond of the ideas that the university puts forward are the one generally attending. Ideas are not challenged in any meaningful way and people attend to hear conformation about the things they already believe in. The result is the production of intellectuals. People who are specifically trained in producing ideas for the consumption of people like themselves. They may think they are special, unique, sophisticated, intelligent and above the rest of society but they're not. They value ideas for idea's sake. As if all ideas are equal in merit and equally correct. In reality this is not the case. The merit of ideas are not equal and ideas are either correct or they're not correct. Stupid ideas generally become popular and then are championed by the media and politicians. People such as myself, trained in ratiocination, are left to deal with this nonsense produce by intellectuals engaging in mental masturbation.

In conclusion I would like to state if you're not studying hard science or engineering and dislike the nonsense that these people produce by means of mental masturbation, you're not going to particularly enjoy university.

P.S. Actually there is something funny about this. They like portray themselves as anti status-quo but they're precisely the people who are always attempting to validate the status-quo or expand upon the status-quo.

So that spells stay out of school? I spend so much time pondering if I should go. Too bad I am stupid.

 

[Words]

I've always been motivated more by the way I learn, rather than the topic itself. That means that regardless of the topic, if I don't learn it in a specific manner, I won't care about it. It also means that I have the potential to be engaged by all subjects, provided that I learn it in a specific manner. Maybe you're the same.

My preferred method of learning is, by the way, group study conversation. I think it's because I could immediately bounce my half-assed ideas and receive input, listen to perspectives, and the human, emotional connection.

Proxy has a point. If ever you feel like focusing on something and if you had a choice, choose something that works with the maths or the natural sciences or both. Social Science, the Humanities and the Arts are not going anywhere.

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

'Ideas for idea's' sake is fine as long as people don't try and reshape the world as a result without first analyzing the probable end result. People really need to understand the ramifications of institutions. I think there is a brilliant paper on this by Frederic Bastiat, 'That Which is Seen, and That Which is Not Seen'.

I can mention some examples of what I am alluding to but that may upset people so I will refrain.

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

So that spells stay out of school? I spend so much time pondering if I should go. Too bad I am stupid.

I see school as an investment. You go there to learn skills which will in turn enable you to earn a relatively higher income. If you go there be sure you're learning something that will achieve this. You do not want to be ending up with a Degree in some field that ultimately relegates you to a $10 an hour job because there is a saturation in the market. A nice example of this is psychology. Everyone does it. Everyone wants to go to grad school and eventually work in academia or a private practice. Reality shows us that the amount of people who want this and don't achieve is is magnitudes greater than the people who do achieve. Philosophy is probably worse.

 

[pjoa09]

I see school as an investment. You go there to learn skills which will in turn enable you to earn a relatively higher income. If you go there be sure you're learning something that will achieve this. You do not want to be ending up with a Degree in some field that ultimately relegates you to a $10 an hour job because there is a saturation in the market. A nice example of this is psychology. Everyone does it. Everyone wants to go to grad school and eventually work in academia or a private practice. Reality shows us that the amount of people who want this and don't achieve is is magnitudes greater than the people who do achieve. Philosophy is probably worse.

Shit, I guess I am not going to college after all. Got a job that I think will sustain me forever.

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

Shit, I guess I am not going to college after all. Got a job that I think will sustain me forever.

Become an industrial electrician and specialize in small instrument fitting and PLC programming. You will be looking at 80k+ a year.

 

[Nawyrus]

Unless you're specifically studying hard science or engineering, university is merely an indoctrination institution. Though, with that said, people whom are fond of the ideas that the university puts forward are the one generally attending. Ideas are not challenged in any meaningful way and people attend to hear conformation about the things they already believe in. The result is the production of intellectuals. People who are specifically trained in producing ideas for the consumption of people like themselves. They may think they are special, unique, sophisticated, intelligent and above the rest of society but they're not. They value ideas for idea's sake. As if all ideas are equal in merit and equally correct. In reality this is not the case. The merit of ideas are not equal and ideas are either correct or they're not correct. Stupid ideas generally become popular and then are championed by the media and politicians. People such as myself, trained in ratiocination, are left to deal with this nonsense produced by intellectuals engaging in mental masturbation.

In conclusion I would like to state if you're not studying hard science or engineering and dislike the nonsense that these people produce by means of mental masturbation, you're not going to particularly enjoy university.

P.S. Actually there is something funny about this. They like portray themselves as anti status-quo but they're precisely the people who are always attempting to validate the status-quo or expand upon the status-quo.

I'm studying engineering and I like it, I hate the course. I would like to understand deeply calculus, heat transfer, mechanics of solids, but that's not what is intended, studying that way is in fact sometimes against success. It is structured in a way to award rote memorization. Just to fake understanding and progress. Parrots are the "brilliant" students. These people that study just by around 20 old tests and already solved exercise lists.

They don't dominate concepts, if you start to discuss whatever discipline with them, they just can't. What they do is acting like a computer, copying. Unfortunately, most if not all professors were created in this system and continue this non-sense. So I'm not against specific ideas, I'm against the backbone of fake education. Pure memorization for what? Forget everything in the future, while living a lie in the present. What a waste of time. But at least in the end you will believe you are an engineer. This kills me.

 

[^_\\]

I'm studying engineering and I like it, I hate the course. I would like to understand deeply calculus, heat transfer, mechanics of solids, but that's not what is intended, studying that way is in fact sometimes against success. It is structured in a way to award rote memorization. Just to fake understanding and progress. Parrots are the "brilliant" students. These people that study just by around 20 old tests and already solved exercise lists.

They don't dominate concepts, if you start to discuss whatever discipline with them, they just can't. What they do is acting like a computer, copying. Unfortunately, most if not all professors were created in this system and continue this non-sense. So I'm not against specific ideas, I'm against the backbone of fake education. Pure memorization for what? Forget everything in the future, while living a lie in the present. What a waste of time. But at least in the end you will believe you are an engineer. This kills me.

"They don't dominate concepts" dominate is not normally used this way in english though your meaning is pretty clear.

Apparently brazillian education is particularly bad for rote memorisation. ttp://v.cx/2010/04/feynman-brazil-education so don't feel bad thinking the whole world works this way. if you want to do more education somewhere else it might be less bad.

"But no, I have to achieve, I have to graduate, I need ambitions, I can't underperform in relation to my family pattern."

Maybe give your word to a family member that you will finish the degree with a certain grade?

about being unable to study. If you have internet try revisiting your understanding of a concept. I find that if I go over a concept I will memorise it better than if I just hammer till it sticks.

"Pure memorization for what?" For the piece of paper that will allow you to work as an engineer and will bring you in line with your family pattern.

"I would like to understand deeply calculus, heat transfer, mechanics of solids, but that's not what is intended, studying that way is in fact sometimes against success."

Maybe all you need is a computer and internet but if you do well in your degree you will be able to afford faster internet, computer and a nicer room and will be able to work as an engineer.

"If you've never questioned anything and always had an easy time accepting ideas from others, followed the easy way, acted to impress/please people, the chances you will be a highly productive and "happy" individual are elevated. I'm aware and have questioned things that I'm sure most people never will in their entire lives. Maybe that is my wound."

Would you trade?


"The simple minded motivation that drives all the humanity is now completely gone. I refuse to do things motivated by fear, or by an undeserving instinct to compete and be on top, or by accepting the flock's path."

What about doing what you set out to do

"But no, I have to achieve, I have to graduate, I need ambitions, I can't underperform in relation to my family pattern."

there it is.

or to prove that you don't have to be a simpleton or a parrot to do well?

Also, I don't think there's anything wrong with using simpleminded motivations to attain a goal so long as you are in control.


I really hope you do well.

 

[Nawyrus]

I've managed to pass in 17 of a total 27 credits, locked 6 and abandoned 4. I
haven't studied even 24 hours, considering the entire sum. I'm content though, eliminated a lot of important and annoying disciplines with an optimal lack of effort.

 

[pjoa09]

Become an industrial electrician and specialize in small instrument fitting and PLC programming. You will be looking at 80k+ a year.

Isn't that just $6k a month? it is a fair amount but not worth college IMO.

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

Isn't that just $6k a month? it is a fair amount but not worth college IMO.

Many people have college degrees and don't earn that much. People should factor in the expected return on their investment in education otherwise they will be relegated to low wage employment and a mountain of debt.

 

[EditorOne]

I am very sorry to be late to this one.

Starting sophomore year of college, I was Nawyrus. I ended up never getting a degree, working a year as a carpenter, then getting a job as a newspaper reporter. I'd have been better off getting a job on the back of a garbage truck, financially, although it did have its moments.

Let me suggest that the problem might not be the course of study, the individual courses, or any particulars. It might finally be a big-picture answer, the kind we can overlook because, in education, we've so caught up in a system that literally does things on an "examine the trees one by one, disregard the forest" process starting in kindergarten.

What if Nawyrus is just bored to death, sick to death, unable to continue, with the process of education itself? With the prospect of spending every day learning? I'm not sure where he is or how education works there, but by the time someone in this country gets an undergraduate degree, there have been 17 years of education. Masters, add one or two more. Doctorate, one or two or even more if it gets swampy and you get bogged down.

That's a long time to experience the same process day after day. Initially it's challenging: Yes, I've got third grade nailed, but that fourth grade stuff looks tough. Etc. Then you find out there's nothing you can't handle in the world of academics, even if people think you're kind of nerdy. While we aren't butterflies, and can focus for however long it takes to get something important done, one of the motivators for us, one of the signposts that says "this is important," is wilting for Nawyrus as it did for me and, probably does for others: We know damn well we are now competent at the process of learning, so why continue?

I tried very hard to get my family to go for a year away from college. No go. This was the cultural norm, do what your family wants. So I stuck it out, apparently in a passive-aggressive way, and endured four years but got no degree due to incompletes and a couple of Fs. Then I had to get to work to support a family, my own.

I sent for my transcripts last year, as it briefly seemed I might get a chance to go back and finish the degree just for yucks. It's an interesting transcript, goes from As and Bs down to Cs, a couple of Fs, and an increasing number of incompletes. And in the last semester, I was astounded to discover 40 years later, I had signed up for courses I had no idea I was signed up for. I'm not sure where that fits on the list of mental maladies, but I believe I'll use the French I learned and slug it "grand ennui."

All that happened before I discovered INTP and all that. So of course I thought I was broken; it also marked the third game-changer in my life where I'd just given up: An important girlfriend, American football, and now college. Had I stuck with and fought for any one of the three, my life would have been different. So I resolved never to quit anything again, and I haven't. The corollary for that, however, is to know your limits. I'm picky about what I take on, because I'm not going to quit it. Stupid, yeah, but it's a good trait to have in your bag.

Anyway, I'm just saying: Take a year off, man. Go do what we used to call Vista and is now called Americorps. Or the Peace Corps. Or walk across American or your country and rely on the kindness of strangers. Do anything except sit your butt in a chair and learn. Then reconsider.

You need, as Seven of Nine would say, to regenerate. You can't regenerate if you remain embedded in what it is that's causing you to degenerate. Think of it intellectually as "nap time" for your life.

My two cents.

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

Going on from what EditorOne said, university almost killed me inside. Still got my bachelors of engineering with first class honors. The only thing that restored my sanity during the period was manual laboring during the long summer break.

 

[pjoa09]

@E1 What if you can't see it as any use of your time anymore? That you'd be better off working than spending 4 years in school?

 

[lucky12]

Manual labor, intense workouts, good sleep, and a good sense of humor.

I flunked out of first year university, am now in college. Last year in college my marks were terrible, I barely tried/showed up.

I watched as many dropped out. They would lie to themselves, always saying how they "couldn't do it anymore." And then there were those who manipulated class mates and discriminated against those who sometimes had a trouble with the materials.

I motivated myself by helping the hopeless, kind of sticking it the assholes. I'm doing alright now, I still do get stressed and breakdown but I have this mentality now where I make myself get shit done even if it means staying up for days. Unhealthy? Maybe. It immerses me into this intense reality and I generally correct my behavior.

Just remember that you deserve to be there after all you went through just to get there. I never should have listened to anyone who "guided" me through school. Teachers, family, and friends gave me all the wrong advice and I hit the lowest point in my life, then it just got worse with other issues popping up.

luck is on your side,

 

[downsowf]

Let me stress that there is a difference between going to college to get a degree and going to college to get an "education." I have no doubt that college is not particularly necessary to become proficient or knowledgeable in a subject of interest.

Where I come from at least, having the degree is mandatory to get your foot in the door for any job you might want. Basically, having a degree will grant access if you're lucky; no degree means you won't even get your foot in the door or be considered. This is a shitty reality, but this is the reality where I'm from. A degree is good to put in your arsenal, especially if you have no idea what you want to do after college.

I ended up getting a job in New York and working in finance after college. I did not even take a business course; however, the degree was my tool to follow my intent to live in New York and experience the city for a few years. So a college might not be necessary to become knowledgeable. I agree with Mark Twain when he said not to let school get in the way of your education or something like that. But many benefits might be reaped later by sticking it out and earning that degree.

But like I said before, the situation might be different where you are from.

 

[EditorOne]

"@E1 What if you can't see it as any use of your time anymore? That you'd be better off working than spending 4 years in school?"

PJ, slice it thinner than all or nothing. Set yourself a year away from school with a firm resolve to make a decision at the end of that year. There is no urgency in making a final decision. So don't. As I advise so often, be patient with yourself and be kind to yourself. I believe we have a tendency to go all-or-nothing, and it's a good tendency to question on some things.

It's amazing several of us found relief in hard, manual work. My teenage summers were spent at what was then the largest private campground on the east coast. It was a great combination of routine (garbage and restrooms), new things (the owner was also a contractor, and built his own house, store, swimming pool, etc.; he also built popcorn warmers and display equipment for movie theaters. There's about nine trades involved in all that), and meaningless socializing with "summer kids" who'd be around for a week, a month, or the summer. And some suntan while lifeguarding. By the end, it was a lot more real to me than school. What I remember most and with the most fondness, I guess, is the hardest work, masonry, shingling a vast roof in the heat of July, etc. Perhaps it was simply that, unlike school (and then unlike journalism), at the end of the day there was something tangible I'd produced that would exist and be useful for quite a long time.

 

[pjoa09]

@E1 I am not in school, I just graduated from High School, felt like I didn't value money enough, told myself I'll take gap year. Wound up working in the family business and even though it's not the best thing, I don't really see a better occupation. Unless if I got paid to play in the NBA or something outrageous. I tried to get into a university and just never showed up for the tuition fees. I just can't see it happening anymore. Can't see it being worth anything.

I also had that stranded feeling in High School, I was producing Bs in the first semester and Fs in the second.

I just feel a bit guilty for just cutting by and I think it could bite back. Not exactly sure how though.

 

[EditorOne]

The "bite back" is the "what if." "What if" university opened doors you don't even know exist unless you go to university?

Or the whole journey thing. "Success is a journey, not a destination." Do you or do you not feel you've cut your journey short, or do you feel it's still taking place?

All very existential. In what's almost our modern definition of "normal paradigm," you have personal responsibility for decisions affecting both you and others, acts of free will, without really knowing, at the moment you must act, what's good, bad, right or wrong. A lot of people seem to veer off at this point and say there's no such thing as free will, so, "whatever," but you're not buying that.

Not knowing the meaning of it all, or the meaning even of some of it, pretty much goes on forever, but it feels most intense, it seems, at just about your age: Out of high school, full of uncertainty, uneasy about a great many things. If what you are doing right now is not insufferable, keep doing it and look for things within it that you know appeal to the INTP personality: tweak the processes you see, look for ways to innovate the business, and just keep asking "why? why? why?" There was a Kurt Vonnegut book with, I think, a prophet or cult leader of a pretty laid back cult of bokononism? The guru would make fun of people like us, but simultaneously acknowledge the integrity of our existence, with little poems. "Fish gotta swim, bird gotta fly, man gotta ask, why? why? why?" Don't hold me to the details, I can remember chunks of Vonnegut but often fail to link them up with the right title. But those are good books to read, all of them, when you are feeling kind of broody.

 

[pjoa09]

The "bite back" is the "what if." "What if" university opened doors you don't even know exist unless you go to university?

I am pretty sure it'd allow me to seek employment and an easier life to a certain extent. I am pretty much a sore thumb by not going to university. Makes me doubt my decision. I have yet to find something that I am good at. Maybe I cut the search short in the wake that I could just be good at what my ancestors have been doing for years. I have a better bet on that than anything else so far. Haven't had much of a compliment in my areas of interest anyways.

Or the whole journey thing. "Success is a journey, not a destination." Do you or do you not feel you've cut your journey short, or do you feel it's still taking place?

I think I have cut the cord so to speak. I just wanted to get rid of the 'real world' fear. I don't think I have cut the journey short. I just went off the tarmac and into the woods. The warmth of time is gone. I meet people now and then, but I never see them twice. Most old ties are growing cold and the new ones aren't warm at all. It's like I am in space drawing away from the gravity of Earth. I was distant then and I am even more distant now.

All very existential. In what's almost our modern definition of "normal paradigm," you have personal responsibility for decisions affecting both you and others, acts of free will, without really knowing, at the moment you must act, what's good, bad, right or wrong. A lot of people seem to veer off at this point and say there's no such thing as free will, so, "whatever," but you're not buying that.

Not knowing the meaning of it all, or the meaning even of some of it, pretty much goes on forever, but it feels most intense, it seems, at just about your age: Out of high school, full of uncertainty, uneasy about a great many things. If what you are doing right now is not insufferable, keep doing it and look for things within it that you know appeal to the INTP personality: tweak the processes you see, look for ways to innovate the business, and just keep asking "why? why? why?" There was a Kurt Vonnegut book with, I think, a prophet or cult leader of a pretty laid back cult of bokononism? The guru would make fun of people like us, but simultaneously acknowledge the integrity of our existence, with little poems. "Fish gotta swim, bird gotta fly, man gotta ask, why? why? why?" Don't hold me to the details, I can remember chunks of Vonnegut but often fail to link them up with the right title. But those are good books to read, all of them, when you are feeling kind of broody.

Kinda lost here. I don't know much about writers. I don't read very much. I am not exactly INTP. I think I am some strange Tony Stark type hybrid. IXTP with a hint of outrageous extroversion when I am drunk.
I think I am afraid of being alone?
I have this idea that there is no free will. In the end you will get a boring job and at one point you will get sick of it and if you had no responsibility to stick to it you will leave. I am just trying to avoid bothering so much for something that won't change enough. I'd be consumed by work and I'll never see the light again. So I just figured I'd better kill it now. What difference does it make. One less memory to be nostalgic about. So far it has been true as well, I am droning into a constant pace and the only thing that keeps me from completely droning out is that I don't get paid and I have a couple friends.

 

[Kuu]

I have this idea that there is no free will. In the end you will get a boring job and at one point you will get sick of it and if you had no responsibility to stick to it you will leave. I am just trying to avoid bothering so much for something that won't change enough. I'd be consumed by work and I'll never see the light again. So I just figured I'd better kill it now. What difference does it make. One less memory to be nostalgic about. So far it has been true as well, I am droning into a constant pace and the only thing that keeps me from completely droning out is that I don't get paid and I have a couple friends.

I've been calling this the quarter-life crisis for a couple of years now. I think it is a development unique to our generation, though it has been brewing since some 50 years ago, perhaps.. It's not a discontent with just the university system, but the whole of the civilizational structure. We feel the crushing oppression of a hyper competitive society based on the ultra-fast production and consumption of mostly banal things, a vast information flood and relentless instability. The absolute disconnection of education from the real world; where one is trained to be an obedient and competent cog in a system, not to become an independent thinker and creator, contrary to the hype. The almost complete crushing of human dreams and ingenuity as people get reluctantly sucked into corporate dead-end jobs (those that get jobs) and a life of constantly compromising their principles and dreams for some tenuous economic safety, slaving away your youth and hoping for an early retirement to then fade away... instead of actually living your life. A monolithic culture where there is only one path to progress, only one road to happiness, only one way to knowledge.... Where is humanity going, as a whole? Where are we as individuals going? Why study this, take that job? To what end? What will it achieve? Most people seem to just drift into stagnation once they run out of energy to resist...

An utterly bleak future of meaningless decades we seem to have no control over. The death of hope or trust or direction in this whole civilization, basically.

Not only in the US, but throughout the world, it just seems we are in total free fall and people caught between the sword and the wall and have nothing left to loose are going deeper into despair and desperate measures...

 

[EditorOne]

Kuu, would you mind taking the time to engrave that on my tombstone? You've nailed it.

Although dissatisfaction with unfulfilling jobs goes back at least to the 1950s. Before that people were dissatisfied with dangerous jobs and brutal jobs. There's always something like a child labor sweatshop or a coal mine or guiding a wooden plow behind oxen to keep us from singing, dancing, writing poetry and whatnot.

We are by nature, in a great many cases, dissatisfied creatures. That's easy enough to just say and grasp, but when you are in the throes of being one of those dissatisifed creatures, like the original poster, it's hard to have that kind of perspective. "Hello, I'm drowning? Stop thinking and throw a line?" So here's the line, PJ, (and Nawyrus) same as before: It's too soon to say your process of decision-making about your life is finished. You're just in a train station waiting to find a train going in whatever direction you want to go. No hurry; if you miss one train, another will be along shortly. In the meantime, seek diversion, even where you think you won't find it. Fill your brain with anything except the products of your own thinking, because right now the only thing happening there is fermentation and you're getting sour pickles for thoughts.
​

 

[walfin]

Just turn up for the tests next time. There is always a chance that you will be lucky and won't fail. There's no way to avoid being unlucky if you don't give luck a chance.

 

[pjoa09]

@E1 Feels more like I missed the train everyone else took. Ended up getting on another train in haste.

 

[RaBind]

I keep thinking to myself that life is like a marathon, if it is a race, you'll be shocked at the amount of running you have to do at the start and at the amount of running you have managed to do at the end.

Somewhere in the middle of the two you’re sure to be lost and question yourself why am I doing this? In the end there are only the people who make it and the people who don't. Respect to the people who don't make it because everyone has been there and not all of us make it. The only secret to life, if there is one, is to continue when you are feeling down and maybe one day you can look back and smile at all the times when you had to struggle, glade that you made it through.

I'm not sure if anyone can relate to this, but I gain enjoyment in finishing things, like a project or several written work. The only motivation I have in starting something is that it could potentially be useful. Maybe it's just that you've forgotten what it's like to struggle and accomplish something, if this is the case than, like everyone else says, breaking down you goals into smaller ones to aim at them individually might work (like taking easier courses and moving up the ladder).

(Your not alone guys)

Spoiler

Five For Fighting - 100 Years - YouTube
In the end you only really remember the moments that have been meaningful to you, hope you find what your meant to do and how you can do it

 

[Enne]

But no, I have to achieve, I have to graduate, I need ambitions, I can't underperform in relation to my family pattern. Otherwise I will be a beggar, people say. I suppose I would be rather happy with the money a low life job can provide, as long as I maintain a necessary level of isolation and intellectual stimulation, a dark room with a good computer. As long as I keep poetry in the soul. Ironically, I don't see myself dropping out from this hellish course. I feel stranded, living a lie for a certain comfort, social status, and a greatly possible future regret.

Staying the course will give you options that attending to short-sighted comforts won't. It sounds like what you need is to gain lateral skills - a way of "banking" / storing future options for yourself.

If you're studying engineering (which discipline?), you will need to get your grades up and establish some form of competence. When you entered the degree program, what types of projects did you foresee yourself working on? If you have a handle on that, you can start working towards the types of internships, open ended and independent projects you'd like to be working on. Take some time out to see what types of work goes on in the field or in research labs. It may sound counterintuitive since you are losing interest with it all, but finding out more about what happens after you jump through the hoops can motivate you to stay on-course.

I've been calling this the quarter-life crisis for a couple of years now. I think it is a development unique to our generation, though it has been brewing since some 50 years ago, perhaps.. It's not a discontent with just the university system, but the whole of the civilizational structure. We feel the crushing oppression of a hyper competitive society based on the ultra-fast production and consumption of mostly banal things, a vast information flood and relentless instability. The absolute disconnection of education from the real world; where one is trained to be an obedient and competent cog in a system, not to become an independent thinker and creator, contrary to the hype. The almost complete crushing of human dreams and ingenuity as people get reluctantly sucked into corporate dead-end jobs (those that get jobs) and a life of constantly compromising their principles and dreams for some tenuous economic safety, slaving away your youth and hoping for an early retirement to then fade away... instead of actually living your life. A monolithic culture where there is only one path to progress, only one road to happiness, only one way to knowledge.... Where is humanity going, as a whole? Where are we as individuals going? Why study this, take that job? To what end? What will it achieve? Most people seem to just drift into stagnation once they run out of energy to resist...

An utterly bleak future of meaningless decades we seem to have no control over. The death of hope or trust or direction in this whole civilization, basically.

Not only in the US, but throughout the world, it just seems we are in total free fall and people caught between the sword and the wall and have nothing left to loose are going deeper into despair and desperate measures...

Working class, lower to the bottom of the pyramid life has always been like this. I think that what it is is more of an expectation to be able to do more with your life. Post-World War II marketing of moving to the suburbs, steady jobs, "attainment is within your grasp" is something that has been packaged and repackaged over the last fifty years. It has left lower classes with this belief that we are more than worker bees - "anything is possible" - that has led to the overreaching responsible for the mess that so many are in.

 

[Pride]

The one thing that keeps me going when I feel completely crushed is my own arrogance. The inability to reconcile failure with my bloated sense of self-importance and vanity.

It is a lie that I choose to ignore and wholly believe in, and it has kept me going until now, and will remain as a force of motivation.

Because all external motivations have failed so far - familial & societal pressures, expectations of friends and peers.... even factors like money and status.

But the self... if we are so proud of our own capabilities, if we overestimate our own self-importance and worth then... would it not be a failure of the mind, a weakness, not to match our self-perceived capabilities?

If University, if work, if society and even life itself is one giant game...

Do you not want to win?

If you don't care about winning the,

Do you not care about being right?

 

[RaBind]

The one thing that keeps me going when I feel completely crushed is my own arrogance. The inability to reconcile failure with my bloated sense of self-importance and vanity.

It is a lie that I choose to ignore and wholly believe in, and it has kept me going until now, and will remain as a force of motivation.

Because all external motivations have failed so far - familial & societal pressures, expectations of friends and peers.... even factors like money and status.

But the self... if we are so proud of our own capabilities, if we overestimate our own self-importance and worth then... would it not be a failure of the mind, a weakness, not to match our self-perceived capabilities?

If University, if work, if society and even life itself is one giant game...

Do you not want to win?

If you don't care about winning the,

Do you not care about being right?

Nice. Everyone says it but there is a lot of truth in not giving up until you reach success. Since being determined provokes the same attitudes as being stubborn, about what you want to achieve, why does society discourage the act of being stubborn?