Porn

[sammael]

This is a mature topic, so if anyone can't deal with/is too young then feel free to leave I'm pretty sure everyone on here is capable of it.

Upon reading an article I came across, I am left with more questions than answers on the subject (pretty normal for me). The article is entitled 'Husband busted watching porn' and to sum it up, appears to me to be about different/conflicting views and perspectives on porn. I have thought about this in the past, as I have noticed different people have different attitudes and tolerances towards porn. In particular relevance is women regarding their men/boyfriends/husbands (watching porn) as in the scenario in the article. Anyway, this is what I have been thinking...

Is it justifiable to be watching porn in a relationship? And by this I don't mean as a consensual tool (watching together), but as an alone activity, whether it is with the significant other's knowledge or not. I've always kind of thought of porn as a (poor) substitute for sex, thereby making it unnecessary in a relationship. But I guess if one is not achieving sexual satisfaction (or no sex at all), is there really anything wrong with it? It could be just a harmless release, which would be healthy and even potentially beneficial.

The article states 'It means he has made the choice to watch porn without you and without your knowledge,' like an accusation. That really grates on me for some reason. He has to get her permission for everything he does? In all honesty I'm not really sure I see anything wrong with it, apart from the little dishonesty. But at the same time it does seem wrong, I'm just not really sure why. I think the reason is because I actually don't see anything wrong with watching porn/getting off alone, but I do admit it's a bit sneaky doing it without the partner's knowledge. But then if he told her she wouldn't be happy about it judging by her reaction. An irrreconcilable difference in opinions.

I remember reading somewhere about a guy whose girlfriend/wife rarely had sex with him because 'it was her body and she could do what she wanted with it'. His response was something along the lines of 'well, then his body was his body and he could do what he wanted with it', and he was sleeping with other girls. Now, although this is wrong, I can certainly see where he is coming from. Flawed logic, or (too) perfect logic?

 

[Jesse]

Porn is fine.

Also statically speaking someone is masturbating to this right now.




I wonder if that counts as immature.

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

If one of the person in the relationship is resorting to porn, erotica, romance novels, romance films etc. to fulfil their wants, there is probably something wrong with their relationship.

 

[MissQuote]

If someone neglects the needs of their partner in favor of a fantasy then there is a problem.

Beyond that, it is safe to assume that most girls are going to enjoy imagining, from time, being swept off their feet in a show of confessed love and most boys are going to enjoy looking at pictures of pretty boobies (and stuff). And vice versa too. It works the other way also. Human nature.

 

[MissQuote]

Porn is fine.

Also statically speaking someone is masturbating to this right now.




I wonder if that counts as immature.

WHY???? Was that necessary?

 

[Jordan~]

My issue with porn is always one of the power balance between audience, producer and actors. Amateur porn I think is generally all well and good - what could be unpleasant about watching people who either care about eachother or who at least share a mutual attraction having sex? Sex is nice and good, I think we can all agree once we abandon our Judeo-Christian hang-ups. However when there's an element of economic coercion involved it becomes rather sinister.
As for porn in a relationship; to each their own. If you're in a relationship and you want to watch porn, either on your own or with your partner, then whatever. Good for you. Otherwise then equally power to you.

 

[Melllvar]

If one of the person in the relationship is resorting to porn, erotica, romance novels, romance films etc. to fulfil their wants, there is probably something wrong with their relationship.

If someone neglects the needs of their partner in favor of a fantasy then there is a problem.

Some people have higher sex drives than others. What are they supposed to do when their partner doesn't want any (more)? Force it on them? Go find someone else?

Porn is fine.

Also statically speaking someone is masturbating to this right now.

Guilty as charged.

 

[Agent Intellect]

Philosophically, I consider myself polyamorous (I haven't put it into practice yet - I'm still working my way up to monogamy) so I really don't see a problem with porn. If your partner watching porn is bothersome to you, it's probably more indicative of your neuroticism and insecurity than your partners perversion.

 

[GYX_Kid]

You can't stop people from fantasizing. Even if you don't catch them in the act of watching porn, they're still probably having mental activity about people other than you from time to time. Maybe that's one cheating-value notch below porn, i dunno, depends who you ask.

My imagination usually beats porn anyway, if i'm feeling like i care enough to have a sex drive.


^self-fulfilling prophecy? Maybe, actually definitely, but i'm not speaking personally

 

[CLOfriendOSE]

I think the idea that there is a problem if somebody in a relationship wants sole ownership of their partner's sexuality. I can understand monogamy in terms of safety - I don't want my boyfriend sleeping with strange people, but there are certainly times when one of us is ready to go more often than the other. In these cases the only option, without masturbation, would be rape.

Quite frankly, no one person is ever going to make all of my dreams come true, and in a relationship of the quality I have we are not together (solely) for the sex. We are together because we're best friends and because we are capable of communication with one another, which is rare for the both of us (it's not easy to find people who talk about metaphysics and philosophy for fun).

I don't have experience in straight matters, but perhaps if a woman feels the near to bare children than the man masturbating could be disconcerting. You know, not saving the best swimmers and all.

 

[MissQuote]

Some people have higher sex drives than others. What are they supposed to do when their partner doesn't want any (more)? Force it on them? Go find someone else?

In regards to my comment, this is not what I was implying. In fact nearly as from from it as I would have imagined anyone would have read it.

I meant more along the lines of if one partner is choosing to be satisfied by viewing porn while they have a willing, eager (and possibly hurting from the neglect) partner in the other room.

This sort of scenerio, though, would be most likely in a case where the porn has become an addiction, and when we delve into ideas about addiction there is always the looming questions on whether addiction is a display of a weak will or a unhelpable disease or any variation inbetween. Another possibility is that the person veiwing the porn while a real willing partner is ignored is that the ignored partner is undesireable, or willing for sex, but not of the variety that the other wishes for, or perhaps not speaking up, any number of things.

Any number of these things would be a clue to deep problems within a relationship.

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

Some people have higher sex drives than others. What are they supposed to do when their partner doesn't want any (more)? Force it on them? Go find someone else?

Not my problem.

 

[psion]

Not my problem.

If you want a long term relationship it is your problem, unfortunately. You are going to run into this eventually whether it is because two people have different sex drives or because someone is just tired/stressed and just wants to come home and sleep.

(Not implying that you do necessarily want a long term relationship, but if you do ^)

I don't see what the huge problem is about watching porn in a relationship anyways, it's just looking.

 

[Melllvar]

In regards to my comment, this is not what I was implying. In fact nearly as from from it as I would have imagined anyone would have read it.

Yeah sorry, looking back on it I think I read that wrong and lumped it together with Proxy's statement.

I meant more along the lines of if one partner is choosing to be satisfied by viewing porn while they have a willing, eager (and possibly hurting from the neglect) partner in the other room.

Well, porn addiction seems kind of silly. I tried to find some statistics on how common it is but all I got were some (apparently) untrustworthy ones and other articles debunking the untrustworthy ones (edit: this may be slightly more reliable). The other example seems more realistic.

Overall though I think my point was just that porn usage != relationship problems (necessarily).

 

[Gather_Wanderer]

I've done it before and, for some reason, felt a little uncomfortable with it. Then I talked to my gf about it and she had no hangups with it at all and even admitted that she would consider it over long periods of my absence, which does happens from time to time. Weirdly enough (perhaps to some self-servicing individuals out there), she said that she fantasizes about ME when doing her thing. (When I first heard that, I immediately thought of the movie "I Love You, Man" in which Jason Segel's character chastises Paul Rudd's character, saying "It's weird masturbating to someone you're in a relationship and already having sex with" )
From then on, I thought I was ok with it.

I'm not certain as to how it works with other people. Do they "imagine themselves in the act" when watching others go at it, in the way of possibly substituting random guy/girl for themselves and desired person? If that is what most people do, I can say I do not do that. I suppose that is what could make someone feel "dirty" or "wrong", though I wouldn't necessarily argue in favor or the latter.

 

[Ex-User (4771)]

I dont think watching porn, even in a relationship, to be an issue at all. It give people a way to explore their sexuality and perversion in an environment without the judgement from another person or without doing something they regret and having to worry about someones's "loose lips". I mean who hasn't watched a porn that was extreme or just not quite right or even that would bring your sexuality into question? Plus what is harder to deal with a bad bait in which you did some weird shit to yourself or a bad attempt at some weird shit you tried with your mate that says that they will never tell? Call me paranoid but people give away secrets EVERYDAY out of spite or any other irrational emotion that is presented.

Porn gives you the ability to fantasize about things you would never dream of doing in real life or with another person. So bait on my friends in relationships, bait on!

 

[addictedartist]

one mans porn is another mans paycheck. hehe

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

one mans porn is another mans paycheck. hehe

rofl

Yeah sorry, looking back on it I think I read that wrong and lumped it together with Proxy's statement.

Melllvar has a crush on me.

 

[MissQuote]

Tsk tsk, you two. Lets try to keep this topic clean now.

 

[Melllvar]

Melllvar has a crush on me.

Nah, I just think you're kinda hot. Big difference.

Tsk tsk, you two. Lets try to keep this topic clean now.

I'll wash it off after I'm done.

Serious comments on this topic coming next time.

 

[Reverse Transcriptase]

Porn is fine.

Also statically speaking someone is masturbating to this right now.

I wonder if that counts as immature.

Statistically speaking, there is also a non-human primate masturbating right now. And there's probably about 50 ground squirrels masturbating. Masturbation is just common for animals with paws that easily reach their junk!
There's also a good (and mature?) TED talk on the subject, about ground squirrel masturbation. Unfortunately I couldn't find it. But I found an article about it: http://boingboing.net/2010/09/29/why-squirrels-mastur.html

But I did find this TED talk!! http://www.ted.com/talks/mary_roach_10_things_you_didn_t_know_about_orgasm.html at one point she points out that semen that have sat around in the testes for more than a week tend to lose their head-banging ability. And so men have an evolutionary excuse to masturbate. Women have no excuse. <3

You can't stop people from fantasizing. Even if you don't catch them in the act of watching porn, they're still probably having mental activity about people other than you from time to time. Maybe that's one cheating-value notch below porn, i dunno, depends who you ask.

My imagination usually beats porn anyway, if i'm feeling like i care enough to have a sex drive.


^self-fulfilling prophecy? Maybe, actually definitely, but i'm not speaking personally

RELATIONSHIP MIND CONTROL!! YOU CANNOT THINK ANYTHING THAT IS NOT PURE LOVE TOWARDS YOUR PARTNER.

Uhh I might've taken that too far.


But I do have a porn story.

I went to a strip club last summer, for my first time. (I was also on shrooms... it was a weird day.)
A lot of strippers were approaching me, trying to get me to pay for private dances or for overpriced non-alcoholic drinks.

But a couple days later I was watching porn and it really hit me... the vast amount of professional pornstars are strippers! And it just... really threw me off. Porn felt really dirty and wrong and grimy to me. And very fake. I dunno. Amateur porn is often better, you actually see flirtatious and loving looks in their eyes.

 

[Minuend]

If one of the person in the relationship is resorting to porn, erotica, romance novels, romance films etc. to fulfil their wants, there is probably something wrong with their relationship.

I don't really consider it fulfilling a relationship, it's more like spicing. Like buying new underwear (like in the movies, it's supposed to be super hot). But even if it were needed, what's wrong with that? People have different kinds of relationships, it needn't be wrong for them.

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

I don't really consider it fulfilling a relationship, it's more like spicing. Like buying new underwear (like in the movies, it's supposed to be super hot). But even if it were needed, what's wrong with that? People have different kinds of relationships, it needn't be wrong for them.

Because god says its wrong. lol

You're correct. One size does not fit all. Perhaps, I should have put an additional clause in my statement.

Take 2:

If one of the person in the relationship is resorting to porn, erotica, romance novels, romance films etc. to fulfil their wants and the other has a problem with this, there is probably something wrong with their relationship.

 

[sammael]

I find the wide range of different opinions, both here and elsewhere, very interesting. No one can say anyone else's opinion/perspective is right or wrong (barring extremes), that's entirely dependant on the individual.

The way I see it, there are two extremes. The first, either perverted sexual desires or unreasonable expectations of sex/acts from the partner, and the second, not fulfilling/meeting (depriving?) the partners (healthy) sexual needs i.e. not putting out. In the second situation, as has been pointed out, how then is that person supposed to meet their needs? If those needs are not unreasonable, then it is/should be a problem that concerns both parties. Denial is almost as bad as the first extreme in my opinion. Obviously neither is healthy, and there is bound to be problems of one kind or the other.

Somewhere between those two extremes are where most people fit in, and have to find a way to work together. Along with the differing opinions, that's when things start to get interesting.

 

[Lostwitheal]

http://www.smbc-comics.com/?db=comics&id=2073#comic

 

[shoeless]

my boyfriend watches porn. so do i. holy shit, go figure.

sometimes i even look at the history on his computer to find recommendations (or i'll just straight up ask him). it's not a big deal. at least, it isn't to me, given we don't have the time/location right now to boink every ten seconds.

there's nothing wrong with porn as long as you don't derive all your sexual expectations from it. then you're just left with an unrealistic view of sex, and you'll probably never be good in bed.

 

[Dimensional Transition]

There's nothing wrong with watching porn and jerking off.
If I was in a relationship I'd still continue, albeit maybe a little less often. A lot of married men, the majority I think, still masturbate.

The thing is, masturbation isn't only about relieving sexual tension, it's also about just having fun by yourself when you're bored. Plus men have to ejaculate at least a few times a month, because the sperm has to be released every once in a while. Maybe the rate at which sperm is produced has something to do with a person's sexual drive, although this is just an assumption I just made.

I think I read somewhere that the average 18 year old man masturbates once a day. This only decreases very slightly over the years, so even 65 year old men still masturbate a couple of times a week.

 

[Linsejko]

^Men do not *have* to release the semen. It's ideal, (see TED talk referenced above), but the body can take care of itself. I never actually jacked off until age 17, believe it or not. (Was a super christian!)

I think this topic is kind of boring and obvious for INTPs, haha. We need to start this argument on an ENFJ forum for some real fun.

 

[Lostwitheal]

YouTube - ‪Every Sperm is Sacred‬&rlm;

 

[pjoa09]

^Men do not *have* to release the semen. It's ideal, (see TED talk referenced above), but the body can take care of itself. I never actually jacked off until age 17, believe it or not. (Was a super christian!)

I think this topic is kind of boring and obvious for INTPs, haha. We need to start this argument on an ENFJ forum for some real fun.

OH FINALLY, I AM NOT ALONE.

Relief.

But I was agnostic before jerking off. I thought it was perverse and unnecessary until I did it myself.

You don't need to but if you realise it's an option and your life is rather dull you might just become God's least favourite child. Maybe Satan would be a bit afraid as well.

But wow.

My Opinion:

Hell yes, you can masturbate.

But what if you masturbate to your own partner? Atleast ejaculate to your own partner?

Is that perverse? Maybe your partner would feel slightly disgusted and aroused at the same time?

What if your partner masturbates to you masturbating to her masturbating?

 

[cheese]

What on earth would be wrong with masturbating to your own partner? I don't get this line of thinking at all. The only possible danger comes in with imagining someone else (actually being with someone else, not just being turned on by their sexuality, although that's potentially dangerous too). If you're both working on a monogamous relationship, then it just seems really dumb and counter-productive to outsource for sexual gratification of any sort. I mean cmon, we're prone to stray anyway. If monogamy means something to you (and I'm not saying it has to) then it makes sense to put in effort to stay as faithful as possible, instead of opening up all these little holes. Allowing yourself a little license here and there mentally just seems like asking for trouble. A lot of affairs are started accidentally. A thousand tiny steps. The same goes for female porn too btw (love fantasies, swept-off-your-feet fantasies, etc).

But yeah, what's wrong with masturbating? Or with using your partner as stimulus?

(*edit
I think Gaylord Focker in Meet The Parents - not sure which one - mentioned masturbating to his own wife as well, at his wedding reception toast. Or something like that. He was drunk.)

I'd say there's a difference between being personally turned on, ie imagining yourself with whoever, and impersonally turned on - which just involves a sexual reaction to the general sexuality on display. The thinking and boundaries are different, and everything starts in the head.

 

[cheese]

The article states 'It means he has made the choice to watch porn without you and without your knowledge,' like an accusation. That really grates on me for some reason. He has to get her permission for everything he does?

That seems like a common knee-jerk response as a result of the fear of being controlled. (I'm not saying it is from you, just that it's something I've come across a lot in similar situations.) Wherever sex of any form comes into play, it's better to assume it'll have an impact on the other person in the relationship than not. At least in conventionally monogamous relationships, sexuality is exclusive and confined to your partner. It's one of the main markers of exclusivity. Any breach or blurring of this marker is a potential conflict-trigger. Porn involves the person's sexual energy being expended in response to people other than his/her partner, so the fact that it'd need to be talked over first is understandable.

So it's not so much a matter of her wanting to have control over his entire life. Demanding he ask for permission before he takes a dump would be a different matter, since it really is none of her business. But sex being something held more or less sacred in a monogamous relationship, any area of sexuality is directly related both to themselves, and to the relationship, so it's well within reasonable rights to expect boundaries to be set before action is taken.

Of course, most people don't think this way and assumes the other person is on the same page as them. It's quite possible the man wasn't being sneaky or deceptive at all.


I'm also curious what people think about the usual defense, "this is fantasy/mental exploration; people know the difference between fantasy and reality, and always prefer reality". What if you met someone in reality that matched your fantasy model? Doesn't reality > fantasy only work because there isn't anyone in your life worth leaving your partner for, or at least they're not willing to go out with you? Again, porn just seems like a really dumb idea in a relationship. If you're going to be satisfied with one person, fucking be satisfied with them. Otherwise you're setting up destructive mental habits.

The solution would seem to be polyamory, of course. Rarity increases value - so spread the love over several people so sex and love no longer have the meaning conferred by exclusivity, right? Most people seem emotionally incapable of doing that though. Even if they could imagine themselves with a harem, they'd be torn up if their partner had the same.

Of course, some people can walk that happy line between togetherness and separation/exclusivity and exploration without building up incremental damage towards their relationship. Or they're enlightened enough to free themselves from jealousy. But I think most simply don't have the mental strength or willpower to handle themselves, and little cracks and habits of thought build up over time. And since they can't handle their partner cheating either, they have to compromise somewhere.

 

[Jordan~]

Re: the exclusivity of love and pornography:

For me, I want exclusive love because I naturally become very devoted to one person when I love them. I want it for me, not necessarily for other people, not even necessarily for him. I feel like it would be wrong of me to limit someone I love, to tell them that they can't do what they think would make them happy because I don't want them to. At the same time, it would hurt me if I was cheated on because I would blame myself for being an inadequate lover - I love the object of my love, so it can't possibly be their fault, as when I'm in love they become my definition of perfect. Therefore it must just be me failing to meet their needs, which damages my self-esteem and makes me question my value as a lover, and whether or not I'm being cruel to my beloved by being with them when someone else might be able to love them better. So for me it's quite the opposite - I can imagine my partner being with a harem, but I wouldn't want one and I'd feel like I should be the one-man harem I can't be if that's what he wants, that I'm just not good enough.

Of course, this way of thinking drove me to nervous breakdown and I'm rather worried that it leaves me hopelessly incapable of dealing with a failing relationship. I should really overcome it, but it's just my intuition and I don't really know how to conquer it. Plus I'm attached to the unrealistic romance of it - I'm an idealist and it seems ideal to be utterly devoted to the one you love.

That said, I would still watch porn if I was in love with someone. I would still fantasise in my head. It's not as if there's any kind of emotional interaction going on when I do that - I don't want to be in a relationship with the pornstars, I just want to appreciate them aesthetically and sexually. Equally when I watch an amateur video - someone's home movie of them and their partner having sex - I don't want to get between them, I just want to watch their consummation of their love, because it's enjoyable on several levels - aesthetically, sexually, and emotionally in that the obvious passion they feel for eachother if they're actually in love is quite moving. I don't consider it a breach of exclusivity because the 'expending of sexual energy' is as meaningless to me as riding a bike. It's just sex.

The difference between sex-with-partner and sex-with-others ("just sex") is that sex-with-partner is an emotional expression, it's the physical actualisation of what you feel for one another, whereas sex-with-others is just masturbation with another person there helping, with no real emotional connection. Satisfying in a wholly different way; the same actions but not the same behaviour. My response to my partner masturbating to porn would be, "How nice for you, you're doing something you enjoy" - that's a good thing, I want him to enjoy himself. As I say, I can even conceive of not minding my partner actually having sex with someone else, so long as the relationship, as it exists in our minds, was exclusive to him and me; naturally, though, I would fear that emotions would develop if he were to have sex with the same person more than once, that he would begin to feel for them what he feels for me, and that he might then forget about me - that he'd have found someone better.

This is difficult for me because, as I say, it makes me feel that I'm not good enough, so I don't want to burden him by being with him; on the other hand, I have a very strong compulsion to want to be with him, I love him. Two conflicting demands held in equal weight by the same mind: a double bind, and the madness in which that results.



This is just me, of course. Other people think about relationships differently, and that's the bottom line, really: there is no objective way in which we can understand the role of porn in a relationship, because the people involved in that relationship it will make it very different to other relationships. There are no universally applicable rules. "To each their own."

 

[Trebuchet]

I don't think you can ask if porn is okay in relationships, because the question is too big. Most men like porn, some women like it, and most people seem to be able to separate fantasy from reality. I agree with those who say the answer is in the middle.

I talked to one man who had to give up porn because he found it addictive and it was making him objectify women in a way he didn't like. This was very responsible of him, and clearly porn was wrong for him.

If porn hurts a relationship, that's bad. I have talked to a few women who had some fantasy that they could be all things to their partners at all times, and that even noticing that other women exist was some sort of betrayal. Their partners must accept the idea, early on, that porn is out of the question. I don't think that is wrong, but the one who hates porn must be prepared to provide another outlet with lots of imaginative and active sex.

A romantic relationship has to find some sort of balance, a way to satisfy both partners sexually and emotionally. The chance that both people are always interested to the same degree, at the same time, in the same activity, is really low. So negotiations and compromises have to take place.

I don't see a problem with porn or romance novels or masturbation or fantasies, as long as they aren't used to hurt the partner, excuse neglect, or as a substitute focus. Lying about it is bad, and so is putting your partner in a position where they feel they have to lie. Leaving your partner constantly frustrated by denying them sex is probably more harmful to a relationship than porn.

 

[Cavallier]

Huh. I assumed everybody's response would line up with mine more or less and I wouldn't get the opportunity to post anything.

Assuming the relationship is healthy and there is no sexual or other form of frustration existing between the partners here is my view of porn/masturbation:

Masturbation/watching porn is purely self-referential pleasure and I don't see anything wrong with that. Masturbation and sex are not the same thing. At all. I'm disturbed by how much people lump the two together. A happy couple has sex for very different reasons and with ultimately different outcomes than when one of them watches porn. Sure, they both end in an orgasm but other than that they don't compare or even relate on any other level. During sex the partners focus on each others pleasure as well as their own. They are enjoying the feel of each others bodies and they take pleasure in each other. When you masturbate you are taking pleasure in yourself. You are enjoying the way you feel and enjoying the experience of being aroused.

I think of porn and masturbation as being similar to taking a bath. You wouldn't ask your partner for permission to take a bath right? It is a personal exercise so you don't go around broadcasting that you're going to take a bath. You have a nice secluded place you go when you take a bath. You might even lock the door. You enjoy taking a bath WITH your partner but you don't always get the opportunity to and sometimes you just want to sit in the tub and soak for a while. It's a different experience. It doesn't require a lot of effort on your part and it's often more relaxing. It's not that different from masturbation in my opinion.

Am I crazy?

 

[Smooch]

If you're both working on a monogamous relationship, then it just seems really dumb and counter-productive to outsource for sexual gratification of any sort. I mean cmon, we're prone to stray anyway. If monogamy means something to you (and I'm not saying it has to) then it makes sense to put in effort to stay as faithful as possible, instead of opening up all these little holes. Allowing yourself a little license here and there mentally just seems like asking for trouble.

I just would like to say that I agree with this.

 

[Trebuchet]

Porn involves the person's sexual energy being expended in response to people other than his/her partner, so the fact that it'd need to be talked over first is understandable.... But sex being something held more or less sacred in a monogamous relationship, any area of sexuality is directly related both to themselves, and to the relationship, so it's well within reasonable rights to expect boundaries to be set before action is taken.

Given how fraught the whole subject is, this is exactly right. I think hiding porn from your partner is only going to lead to trouble. Eventually, there will either be a big unpleasant reveal and a fight, or it will remain hidden and just be a guilty pleasure. A guilty pleasure is quite different from an innocent pleasure, and if it is sexual pleasure, not a good idea at all.

What if you met someone in reality that matched your fantasy model? Doesn't reality > fantasy only work because there isn't anyone in your life worth leaving your partner for, or at least they're not willing to go out with you?

I don't think so. Reality has more to it than just being unsuccessful at finding a fantasy. Love isn't based on perfection. A person's level of commitment matters, as does the perceived level of commitment of the partner. I've seen people stay in totally destructive relationships, and it wasn't because they couldn't do better. People are very complex. Sexual attraction isn't the whole of a relationship.

Again, porn just seems like a really dumb idea in a relationship. If you're going to be satisfied with one person, fucking be satisfied with them. Otherwise you're setting up destructive mental habits.

I sort of agree. In my mind, if you are in a monogamous relationship, stay monogamous. (Unless you are a member of the US Congress, of course.) It is just that I don't see porn as equivalent to infidelity. Nor do I see it as clear evidence of being dissatisfied with your partner. I like Cava's comparison to a bath. For some people, porn may be infidelity, but not universally.

 

[xbox]

Huh. I assumed everybody's response would line up with mine more or less and I wouldn't get the opportunity to post anything.

Assuming the relationship is healthy and there is no sexual or other form of frustration existing between the partners here is my view of porn/masturbation:

Masturbation/watching porn is purely self-referential pleasure and I don't see anything wrong with that. Masturbation and sex are not the same thing. At all. I'm disturbed by how much people lump the two together. A happy couple has sex for very different reasons and with ultimately different outcomes than when one of them watches porn. Sure, they both end in an orgasm but other than that they don't compare or even relate on any other level. During sex the partners focus on each others pleasure as well as their own. They are enjoying the feel of each others bodies and they take pleasure in each other. When you masturbate you are taking pleasure in yourself. You are enjoying the way you feel and enjoying the experience of being aroused.

I think of porn and masturbation as being similar to taking a bath. You wouldn't ask your partner for permission to take a bath right? It is a personal exercise so you don't go around broadcasting that you're going to take a bath. You have a nice secluded place you go when you take a bath. You might even lock the door. You enjoy taking a bath WITH your partner but you don't always get the opportunity to and sometimes you just want to sit in the tub and soak for a while. It's a different experience. It doesn't require a lot of effort on your part and it's often more relaxing. It's not that different from masturbation in my opinion.

Am I crazy?

No youre not crazy, I agree w/you. Some people view porn as "cheating" sometimes, and I dont exactly see how that's even possible. I don't care either way actually. I also agree that we should bring this up on an ENFJ forum, would be fun.

 

[Yet]

Huh. I assumed everybody's response would line up with mine more or less and I wouldn't get the opportunity to post anything.

Assuming the relationship is healthy and there is no sexual or other form of frustration existing between the partners here is my view of porn/masturbation:

Masturbation/watching porn is purely self-referential pleasure and I don't see anything wrong with that. Masturbation and sex are not the same thing. At all. I'm disturbed by how much people lump the two together. A happy couple has sex for very different reasons and with ultimately different outcomes than when one of them watches porn. Sure, they both end in an orgasm but other than that they don't compare or even relate on any other level. During sex the partners focus on each others pleasure as well as their own. They are enjoying the feel of each others bodies and they take pleasure in each other. When you masturbate you are taking pleasure in yourself. You are enjoying the way you feel and enjoying the experience of being aroused.

I think of porn and masturbation as being similar to taking a bath. You wouldn't ask your partner for permission to take a bath right? It is a personal exercise so you don't go around broadcasting that you're going to take a bath. You have a nice secluded place you go when you take a bath. You might even lock the door. You enjoy taking a bath WITH your partner but you don't always get the opportunity to and sometimes you just want to sit in the tub and soak for a while. It's a different experience. It doesn't require a lot of effort on your part and it's often more relaxing. It's not that different from masturbation in my opinion.

Am I crazy?

no... I find that you described it really well
I agree with everything you wrote in this post!

 

[Roni]

Re: the article 'Husband busted watching porn'

The whole thing really grated on me too, right from the heading: Busted?
Some crime is assumed. Instead of challenging the assumption the sexologist gives advice about dealing with the criminal.
Her unprofessionalism would be obvious if hubby had chosen a non-sexual indulgence instead:
"Husband busted eating a chocolate biscuit!"
"Husband busted reminiscing about childhood pet!"
We'd expect a professional to address wifey's craziness, not join in on the hubby bashing.
These resonated with me:

You can't stop people from fantasizing.
My imagination usually beats porn anyway

..there is a problem if somebody in a relationship wants sole ownership of their partner's sexuality.

RELATIONSHIP MIND CONTROL!! YOU CANNOT THINK ANYTHING THAT IS NOT PURE LOVE TOWARDS YOUR PARTNER.

It's not just the 'Porn Bad' assumption that bugged me, it's the bad counselling. Even if hubby was setting fire to kittens the wife is this doctor's concern, not him. But wifey included "I felt sick" in her request for help and the "doctor" ignored it.
A decent professional would be asking why this bothers the poor woman so much. Wifey hints she has a body issue and the response is almost callous - "much larger sizes.. flaws and all" - what?
Doctor, I feel like my husband is no longer attracted to me.
Well yeah, you are fat and ugly, but he probably doesn't mind.
Disgraceful!

Then she has the nerve to say "ringing a helpline can often lead to bogus advice" about hubby's alleged request for help. Bah!

 

[Roni]

Re: porn - sex - fantasy - masturbation

I agree with everyone saying these are all different things.

The thing is, masturbation isn't only about relieving sexual tension, it's also about just having fun by yourself when you're bored.

..Masturbation and sex are not the same thing. At all. I'm disturbed by how much people lump the two together...
You have a nice secluded place you go when you take a bath. You might even lock the door. You enjoy taking a bath WITH your partner but you don't always get the opportunity to and sometimes you just want to sit in the tub and soak for a while. It's a different experience. It doesn't require a lot of effort on your part and it's often more relaxing. It's not that different from masturbation in my opinion.

Beyond that, it is safe to assume that most girls are going to enjoy imagining, from time, being swept off their feet in a show of confessed love and most boys are going to enjoy looking at pictures of pretty boobies (and stuff).

I'm also curious what people think about the usual defense, "this is fantasy/mental exploration; people know the difference between fantasy and reality, and always prefer reality". What if you met someone in reality that matched your fantasy model?

I think the 'masturbation is not the same as sex' idea has been covered.
I also think porn and fantasing are quite different but probably not worth quibbling.
I don't think anyone's explored Cheese's question yet re fantasy/reality so I'll focus on that.

I never understood the appeal of porn - I found the scenarios too ludicrous (hot babes washing car, creepy dude perves on them, everyone decides to have sex) or offensive (boss calls secretary into his office) to have any chance of arousal. I've had the visual arousal thing explained to me, I get that a viewer could suspend disbelief for the sake of the visuals, I even found a way to accept the existence of offensive scenarios (more difficult for me since I have very clear expectations of behaviour when my boss calls me into his office!) and believe just because a man enjoyed all the boobies and stuff didn't mean he condoned the behaviour in the backstory. Accept, yes. Understand, no.
Until I came across some Hentai tentacle porn and *ahem* reacted appropriately. It never crossed my mind for a second that reacting to this stuff implied I secretly wanted to be brutalised by aliens. Or anyone. Real life brutality is so completely not my thing that the slightest hint of it will slam my walls up faster than he can say "oops" and kill the mood for hours. So what's the appeal?
I read once that many women include brutality in their fantasies. It serves the function of giving them permission to be aroused in a world that still has some major issues with female sexuality (it's 2011 and still rape victims have to prove they didn't ask for it? Girls still call each other sluts? Britney Spears? Come on people, sheesh! ... but I digress).
Maybe 'being swept off her feet' is a variation of the same thing? I don't know - I'm not into romantic stuff.
For me I think it's that the characters are animated and the aliens and monsters are so clearly fantasy creatures that my suspension of disbelief happens automatically, letting the story go straight to the bits it's meant to go to. The visuals themselves don't matter to me (they have the same impact on me when they're pixelated) but this medium seems effective at conveying sexy ideas. Then my own joy of fantasy takes over.
So finally I understood what the guys had been trying to tell me about their own experiences with porn.

This is not something I'd want to share with a partner - I'd be too worried he'd get the wrong idea about my desires. And I'd still never enjoy watching ludicrous or offensive stuff with him even knowing it was mere fantasy and not his true desire. So these media for fantasy would have to remain private.
Unless we both enjoyed toon porn. I could just see me giggling with a partner while Scooby Doo ...

It was at about this point in my musings I started laughing - at myself, at most of you, thinking:
You know you're an INTP when you write analytical essays about porn instead of, you know, just watching it.

 

[Roni]

... and just in case I gave anyone the impression I was like all cool and open-minded and stuff...

But what if you masturbate to your own partner? Atleast ejaculate to your own partner? Is that perverse? Maybe your partner would feel slightly disgusted and aroused at the same time?

What on earth would be wrong with masturbating to your own partner?

Eeuw! Eeuw! Eeuw! A thousand times eeeuw!

Any guy who wants his sex on me rather than with me is looking for a punch in the head.
Period. Not negotiable. Go demean a magazine you pervert!*

And if he wants to watch me masturbate ... No. That's mine.
It's something I might do in my fluffy slippers wearing a mud mask and slices of cucumber on my eyes (possibly inspired by the slicing of said cucumber). It's private.
He'd probably want high heels and eye contact, inspired by him asking for it. That's not masturbation - that's a performance.

And if he 'busted' me in my fluffy slippers I would feel invaded or robbed or ... hang on... why am I trying to explain this to introverts?

In fact, why are there not more comments here like:
Poor man! His nosy extravert wife won't even let him wank in peace!

*If you truly prefer your man wanks over you instead of magazines then the presence of porn in your household is the least of your worries.

 

[Roni]

Re: relationships

If you're both working on a monogamous relationship, then it just seems really dumb and counter-productive to outsource for sexual gratification of any sort.

I'm probably reading more into this than you intended but once I got the idea I couldn't let it go.
I assumed:
1) the couple is committed to working on the relationship;
2) a breach of 'monogamy' (as the couple defines it) is a betrayal; and
3) the couple needs to avoid betrayal.
It became:
This betrayal-phobic rules-loving couple is doomed.

Our sexuality is inextricably tied to our sense of self. Even people comfortable with 'just sex' acknowledge this in the strategies they develop to protect their emotional self from the encounter. Monogamous couples revel in it, incorporating all kinds of non-sexual aspects of themselves into their sexual relationship.
Drawing a mutually understood and accepted line between 'sex' and 'not sex' is probably impossible.

Including fantasy in the definition of 'sex' (particularly when one of them is an introvert) is close to relationship sabotage.
Eg- consider Mrs home with small children (a predictable 'rough patch') watching a mindless daytime soap involving someone submitting to the charms of a saccharine hero. Mrs finds her near comotose libido waking up with its potential to enrich the couple's evening when Mr gets home. If this technically counts as a betrayal by the couple's own definition does she keep it a secret? Does she force herself not to react in the first place? What kinds of silly, unnecessary restrictions have these two created for themselves? Do they allow cucumbers in the home?

Worse trouble for them is in why they restricted themselves this way - to avoid betrayal.
'Outsourcing' for different kinds of gratification is accepted by all but the most psycho couples as a normal part of life - healthy people maintain relationships with extended family, friends of both sexes, workmates, health professionals and so on. The sources of betrayal are endless - time with friends, spending money, the level of thought in mother's christmas gift etc can all lead to hurt feelings.
And the biggest betrayals always come from within the relationship anyway - mother's gift may not hurt your wife too much, but telling her to "get over it" sure will.
Sooner or later all of us will betray our partner in some way.

This couple would do better if they put their energy into strategies for surviving betrayal, not avoiding it.

 

[cheese]

... and just in case I gave anyone the impression I was like all cool and open-minded and stuff...



Eeuw! Eeuw! Eeuw! A thousand times eeeuw!

Any guy who wants his sex on me rather than with me is looking for a punch in the head.
Period. Not negotiable. Go demean a magazine you pervert!*

And if he wants to watch me masturbate ... No. That's mine.
It's something I might do in my fluffy slippers wearing a mud mask and slices of cucumber on my eyes (possibly inspired by the slicing of said cucumber). It's private.
He'd probably want high heels and eye contact, inspired by him asking for it. That's not masturbation - that's a performance.

And if he 'busted' me in my fluffy slippers I would feel invaded or robbed or ... hang on... why am I trying to explain this to introverts?

In fact, why are there not more comments here like:
Poor man! His nosy extravert wife won't even let him wank in peace!

*If you truly prefer your man wanks over you instead of magazines then the presence of porn in your household is the least of your worries.

Whoa, whoa whoa!

You think porn is fine in a relationship even though the act of getting off to it is demeaning to the people involved?

What the fuck? Maybe I've misunderstood something here....

And what the hell is wrong with masturbation? It's perverted, but somehow acceptable? Porn is demeaning, but it's fine if your partner practises demeaning people in a perverted manner as long as you're not involved? HUH?!

Goddamn, if anything's a bad idea that would be. Encouraging your partner to practise mentally demeaning other people, I mean.

This couple would do better if they put their energy into strategies for surviving betrayal, not avoiding it.

It doesn't have to be mutually exclusive. Prevention is a darn sight better than cure though. Putting effort only into one is lopsided.

But yeah, I think most people don't try nearly as hard as they should, or profess they do, to 'love' each other. ie respect, care for, cherish, appreciate, forgive, etc. There's definitely room for more effort. This isn't exclusive to romantic relationships, but it probably matters more than usual there.

----

I agree that the presumption inherent in articles like this is pretty damn annoying.

----

Any argument that uses the status quo to argue for why things *should* be that way is more or less discarded, for me. Unless they show the current situation is optimal, all you're saying is 'well, everyone does that, so everyone does that, so everyone does that so... accept it'.
It's discarded with extra speed when the status quo used is very far from optimal in terms of success rates (high percentage of divorces, etc). I AM NOT SAYING PORN CAUSES DIVORCE. But I do mean that it's obvious that something we're doing isn't working. (Could be monogamy itself.) So borrowing from an infected pool to prove why the pool is perfect doesn't work, unless you've got something else.

----

By 'outsourcing' I was talking ONLY about sexual gratification. The other examples you listed are not outsourcing, because they're not exclusive to the relationship. Sex is. Porn/fantasy isn't necessarily infidelity, and masturbation isn't necessarily sex, I agree. That wasn't my point though.

----

Alright, the sexual response. It's very varied, it means a multitude of things, etc. I wasn't saying 'don't masturbate' or 'don't watch porn'. But I do think fantasising about you yourself being with someone else could be impractical for the purpose of monogamy, for many people. This is different to what people like Gather_Wanderer for instance does. (I think I mentioned this in my original post.)

I think there's a difference between personal arousal and impersonal arousal.

Impersonal arousal is a response to the sexual elements in a situation. Eg watching porn and being turned on by the sex, or the people's arousal, or particular body parts, or the symbol of sexuality represented by the body/movements. In a real-life situation this would equate to the kind of sex where you're essentially just masturbating using the other person's body. (I don't mean emotionless sex necessarily.)

Personal arousal is a response to the individual, by the individual. Again, it's not necessarily emotional, but it involves more attraction and an active response rather than a passive, 'using' response. Eg sexual desire and attraction for (ie desire to have sex with) one of the actors.

I think in most situations both are combined, but imo it'd be best if when outsourcing the former was predominant. The more personal it becomes, the more easily applicable that pattern of thinking becomes irl. Again, the fact that 'everyone does it' doesn't really prove anything to me. Lots of people suck and are hurtful, lying, cheating, self-deceptive, dishonest idiots.

----

There are also many different kinds of stimuli, as other people have mentioned. There's unrealistic porn, amateur porn, toon porn, pseudo-amateur porn, horse porn, erotica etc. I think the difference is important because some porn, like some movies, just teaches dumbshit thought patterns and values. (And iirc it *does* have an impact on reationships, particularly young/inexperienced ones.) [Seriously, some of the bs they spout in movies is so cringeworthy I feel like beating up the scriptwriter/director/producer/whoever made it so bad. And the thing is I KNOW it'll come back to haunt me in the kids in my neighbourhood.]

I can understand appreciating amateur porn. But different things for different people, I guess? As Roni demonstrated. As long as you understand the difference between what you watch, and reality - the further apart the two are.

----

Like I said before, porn/fantasy don't seem to be a problem for some couples. In general, I don't think it's a useful or productive habit - I think the energy could be put to better use. (Like taking an actual bath, for instance, instead of comparing it to one. Although, baths...) One where there's less danger of training your mind in certain patterns. I find most people I meet overly focused on relationships and sex, which is correlated with them treating people (unwittingly) as products to be bought and sold. Indulging in using people solely for your own pleasure doesn't seem like a good habit. In real life, there's give, not just take. In stories and movies there's personal investment. In most porn, there isn't much else besides the aspect of personal pleasure.

In a relationship imo it's fine to 'use' your partner in that manner, because that's not nearly the full extent of your interaction, and it's based on a foundation of knowledge, interaction and permission. It comes from a complete and full appreciation of the individual in all their forms. In that context, it's not a destructive habit - especially as it's consciously limited to one person. Conscious limitation aids in securing monogamy, as well. (That is, if you're not naturally unsuited to monogamy in the first place.)

----

Tbh though, this is starting to sound a little bit crazy. Getting off to people doesn't mean you're going to start treating them as less-than-human. (I think.) There are definite correlations between the extent of porn usage, fantasising, commercialising of human individuals, etc. But if there are those for whom it works, and those for whom it doesn't - the problem must much deeper. Does porn facilitate the cracking? Are porn users in successful relationships better at compartmentalising and correctly categorising? Is there no link between porn and attitudes at all? Blah blah blah?

Not to mention there are people who *enjoy* being objectified by strangers. Although that minority doesn't necessarily prove anything about the larger issue.

 

[Roni]

You think porn is fine in a relationship even though the act of getting off to it is demeaning to the people involved?

There are no people involved. Magazines and movies are objects.
Porn is fine. Treating real people as objects is not.

And what the hell is wrong with masturbation?

Um, nothing. I'm a big fan.
Maybe what I haven't made it clear is that I consider it a personal/private exploration of sexuality. It's inherently self-absorbed. The thing that made me go eeuw was the idea of incorporating that self-absorption into sex with someone else.
I also go eeuw at the idea of couples shitting in front of each other. It's the same level of eeuw.

Porn is demeaning, but it's fine if your partner practises demeaning people in a perverted manner as long as you're not involved? HUH?!
Goddamn, if anything's a bad idea that would be. Encouraging your partner to practise mentally demeaning other people, I mean.

hahaha agreed! In my example I've just punched him in the head and sent him home to a magazine. Pretty sure he's no longer my partner!

One other point:

But I do think fantasising about you yourself being with someone else could be impractical for the purpose of monogamy, for many people.

For most people, I would think. If there's someone else out there you want to be with then your current relationship is in trouble. No argument there.

I don't think that's what anyone has meant by fantasy in this thread. We're talking porn - pictures, movies, ideas. It's just tv people and it's not real. People can be aroused by them without imagining themselves in the image but even if they do slip into the fantasy they're still just having sex with themselves in that moment only.

 

[cheese]

There are no people involved. Magazines and movies are objects.

I thought you might say that. People generally don't get off to magazines. They get off to the people in magazines.

Porn is fine. Treating real people as objects is not.

I'm saying the line is possibly blurred.

Um, nothing. I'm a big fan.
Maybe what I haven't made it clear is that I consider it a personal/private exploration of sexuality. It's inherently self-absorbed. The thing that made me go eeuw was the idea of incorporating that self-absorption into sex with someone else.
I also go eeuw at the idea of couples shitting in front of each other. It's the same level of eeuw.

Ok. I don't really understand this, but ok.

One other point:
For most people, I would think. If there's someone else out there you want to be with then your current relationship is in trouble. No argument there.

I don't think that's what anyone has meant by fantasy in this thread. We're talking porn - pictures, movies, ideas. It's just tv people and it's not real. People can be aroused by them without imagining themselves in the image but even if they do slip into the fantasy they're still just having sex with themselves in that moment only.

Affairs start in the head. What's going on physically during masturbation only involves one person, true, but mentally? Nope.

And tv people are not real? What we see has no effect on our behaviour?

But I guess we're going into video-games-create-mass-murderers territory here. So I think I'm going to stay out.

 

[Oblivious]

I suppose that when a person chooses to act in a porno, a certain understanding is reached, which includes possible objectification. The same way the choice to cook includes the risk of being judged. Unless one has had no choice but to act in a porno, but then that's a separate issue. The choice to view porn is in context with actors who chose to act in that porn with the knowledge that they are being objectified.

Speaking generally, not necessarily about couples, the existence of porn and masturbation allows a personal and private exploration of sexual issues, and therefore fills an irreplaceable role. It affords independence from a need that requires the cooperation of another individual. Therefore I would say it is an important concept because sex is an intensely private and personal issue.

The suppression of the sexual maturation of an individual through the outlawing of exploration through porn and masturbation is a stunting of healthy psychological growth. It's like keeping a child in a sexual closet, which goes on to sustain a vicious cycle of sexual retardation when that child goes on to have children (through sex I suppose).

The argument that sexual exploration promotes the degradation of moral values and objectification of women only betrays a form of sexual retardation on the part of the proposer. We know that rape is wrong, but do people really know why it is an aberration on the emotional and psychological level? I regret to inform that many do not!

In the case of couples, I doubt many young people of my generation are deceived into the thinking that porn is morally reprehensible. If this would be an issue, it should have been dealt with in the courting stage. If it still is an issue for a married couple, then it is more of an issue of trust and understanding then it is about morals, because there is nothing wrong with porn and masturbation.

And of course I am not talking about porn depicting psychotic behaviour.

 

[Hadoblado]

Roni I think your abhorrence for non-private (I don't think public is the right word here) sexual exploration is more of a personal preference than a position from which you can argue, correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Roni]

Roni I think your abhorrence for non-private (I don't think public is the right word here) sexual exploration is more of a personal preference than a position from which you can argue, correct me if I'm wrong.

I think personal preferences are precisely what we are arguing here. Specifically the miscommunicated ones of the couple in the original article.
I'm bringing up my own preference for privacy in sympathy with the 'busted' husband. He was home alone and not expecting to be interupted. Wifey is judgemental and gets a sexologist to validate her disapproval. I think that would be horrible for him.

 

[Hadoblado]

I guess I look for the correctness of porn use in a more objective moral sense (if such a thing were to exist :P).