Pod'Lair review

[snafupants]

I'VE GOT THE MAGIC DECODER RING!

Vyy'zai Se'Ti = ESTP
Vyy'xai Se'Fi = ESFP
Zai'vyy Ti'Se = ISTP
Xai'vyy Fi'Se = ISFP

Vai'zyy Si'Te = ISTJ
Vai'xyy Si'Fe = ISFJ
Zyy'vai Te'Si = ESTJ
Xyy'vai Fe'Si = ESFJ

Xyy'nai Fe'Ni = ENFJ
Xai'nyy Fi'Ne = INFP
Nyy'xai Ne'Fi = ENFP
Nai'xyy Ni'Fe = INFJ

Zyy'nai Te'Ni = ENTJ
Zai'nyy Ti'Ne = INTP
Nyy'zai Ne'Ti = ENTP
Nai'zyy Ni'Te = INTJ

Zyy=Te
Zai=Ti
Nyy=Ne
Nai=Ni
Vai=Si
Vyy=Se

Now why was I the one that had to do that?

The one? Were you? Didn't Fukyo post a similar equivalency table before?

 

[cheese]

I posted one like that before too!

 

[Lyra]

@Architect . More in-depth info on Powers and how they work. This should inform you (in a way highly relevant to you personally) about the aspects of P'L theory we discussed on the last page.

Here is the Zai Power Flows video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OipaLZY7mGc

And the Nyy Power Flows video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLb05PdIXeo

And the Zai distinct signal video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pX9_hPsQm3I

Finally, Xai vs. Zai resonating:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wpDGhfEhkE

 

[BigApplePi]

Pod'Lair translations

I'VE GOT THE MAGIC DECODER RING!

Vyy'zai Se'Ti = ESTP
Vyy'xai Se'Fi = ESFP
Zai'vyy Ti'Se = ISTP
Xai'vyy Fi'Se = ISFP

Vai'zyy Si'Te = ISTJ
Vai'xyy Si'Fe = ISFJ
Zyy'vai Te'Si = ESTJ
Xyy'vai Fe'Si = ESFJ

Xyy'nai Fe'Ni = ENFJ
Xai'nyy Fi'Ne = INFP
Nyy'xai Ne'Fi = ENFP
Nai'xyy Ni'Fe = INFJ

Zyy'nai Te'Ni = ENTJ
Zai'nyy Ti'Ne = INTP
Nyy'zai Ne'Ti = ENTP
Nai'zyy Ni'Te = INTJ

Zyy=Te
Zai=Ti
Nyy=Ne
Nai=Ni
Vai=Si
Vyy=Se

Just to add to that ...
Xyy=Fe, Xai=Fi. Technically = should say <--> to please PL
Pod'Lair lingo: Z thinking, N intuition, X(gee)* feeling, V sensing

*I haven't verified all the pronunciations.

 

[Architect]

The one? Were you? Didn't Fukyo post a similar equivalency table before?

I posted one like that before too!

Apologies, I either forgot it or didn't realize what it was. Still my point is that PL should maintain this list.

Lyra, thanks, will watch the videos later.

 

[Lyra]

@Architect our main audience isn't MBTI enthusiasts, long run, so we're not really tailoring it to them. We're offering a select sort of person with some involvement with that subculture to play catchup, and getting everybody else's position in relation to us clear and on the record.

That said, I'd assumed the approximate correspondences (epistemological concerns aside) were obvious.

 

[Architect]

@Lyra

Architect our main audience isn't MBTI enthusiasts, long run, so we're not really tailoring it to them. We're offering a select sort of person with some involvement with that subculture to play catchup, and getting everybody else's position in relation to us clear and on the record.

Hm, I think you have it backwards. The majority of people don't and won't care about typology, why should they care about Pod'Lair?* I've been using typology for 25 years, and outside my wife haven't gotten any interest. Annoying since the problems between people could have been helped if they understood the context of what they were doing. ESTJ's are either indifferent or actively hostile to it, because, well, I'm not sure. ISTP's brush it off because they don't like theory.

You folks want to help humanity, a laudable goal, but you would be much better served by catering to the people that actually care. A ready made audience, we would have taken up an extension to Typology instantly. You could still maintain the independence too, start with the MBTI improvement, then have the main theory on it's own (with it's own terminology even) separately if you want as the advanced material.

As it is, a search for Pod'Lair shows a page of negativity, and the videos have few views and fewer subscribers. **

That said, I'd assumed the approximate correspondences (epistemological concerns aside) were obvious.

A better statement of how you guys are misunderstanding your audience couldn't be said. Thinking of the other thread where we're talking about physicists and science education, I see a parallel here.

* As you've noticed and lambasted typology for, when people do have an interest they get it wrong and have an overly simplistic approach. Well, that's better than nothing, and typology has the advantage that at least you can take a simplistic approach - getting it mostly wrong - but giving you a very basic idea of how it's working.

** The fact that it took me - a typology expert, two years to warm to PL enough to give it a go, and have spent weeks on it while making little progress should speak for itself. Which is the reason I made this thread.

Edit: a note on branding. Taking an example, nobody in my extended family (some 50 people) would touch PL with a 10 foot pole. Too 'weird looking'. You might have some progress with the New Age crowd (what are they now, the 'Old Age'?), you know the pseudo-hippies who drive expensive Priusus? The problem with them is they already have a mish-mash of ideas, they'll take anything from pop Quantum Mechanics to pop Buddhism. So that's not a good audience either.

Do you guys have a marketing plan? I don't need an answer personally, but you get my point.

 

[BigApplePi]

Zai Power Flow video. Just to add to what Thomas Chenault is saying (in the intuitive style), here it is in Zai style:

Perfection of X = X is complete and X is consistent. That is how one tells if X is perfect. So one can conclude:
Imperfection of X means X is either incomplete or has contradictions.

 

[BigApplePi]

@Lyra. Sorry to trouble you but would you happen to have that link to PL Sourcebook again? My copy will eventually go out of date. Appreciated if you have it. Search fails.

 

[Architect]

@Lyra. Sorry to trouble you but would you happen to have that link to PL Sourcebook again? My copy will eventually go out of date. Appreciated if you have it. Search fails.

Didn't I just give it to you??

 

[BigApplePi]

Didn't I just give it to you??

Yes thanks, but wasn't that from your archives/history? Wasn't that the pdf, not the link to the pdf?

 

[Architect]

Yes thanks, but wasn't that from your archives/history? Wasn't that the pdf, not the link to the pdf?

A link to the PDF on their site, from my browsing history.

 

[Lyra]

Edit: a note on branding. Taking an example, nobody in my extended family (some 50 people) would touch PL with a 10 foot pole. Too 'weird looking'. You might have some progress with the New Age crowd (what are they now, the 'Old Age'?), you know the pseudo-hippies who drive expensive Priusus? The problem with them is they already have a mish-mash of ideas, they'll take anything from pop Quantum Mechanics to pop Buddhism. So that's not a good audience either.

This isn't an answer to your post as a whole, but this is actually very pertinent to our intentions. We don't intend to just place Pod'Lair within the current social context-- achieving a compromised fame or authority in the typology community would be a less than trivial feat to accomplish. The types of market-leaders we're going up against are honestly little better than astrology columnists in quality. It's an incredibly easy game to play. Achieving a somewhat noticeable propagation in culture at large, in a compromised form, would also not be extremely difficult.

But we see what we would be adapting to as itself a compromised state of human functioning, and I at least don't see the aspects of it which make us currently too 'weird' a historical constant. Pod'Lair's main position is that this is itself a symptom of not understanding what our theory encompasses, and that it would be incompetence and dishonesty to pander to that sickness. We think we have ways of making a far bigger noise/show/deal/whatever than people are currently anticipating, and that history will come down on our side and recognise how pivotal this is so long as we do that and continue to-- and I'll leave that at that.

For me personally, I'm, as I've mentioned to you before, making a prediction in accordance with Spenglerian Meta-History. IMO Western Civilisation will, over the next 200 years, approach a stage in its morphology which parallels the Syncretism which sprung up in Rome around the start of the Common Era. I am playing a very long and very calculated game in which excessive acceptance of the wrong kind now would be a serious negative, and in which Pod'Lair is an appropriate form to fill in a stage in Western Civilisation's Morphology which is coming, bar early death, in one way or another. A bit like how people get old or go through puberty in different ways, but inevitably take their position in that stage in the cycle somehow.

This morphology goes very deep, as does the ways in which Pod'Lair, by my assessment, relates to it. My primary model of working-- which led me to Pod'Lair, and which makes it no less amazing and game-changing and history-rebooting a discovery-- has historically been one that informs upon the life-cycles and structure of human civilisations and the affective currents which sweep individuals and societies along and away with them.

I do appreciate your ideas on this, but to really get where I personally am coming from it's necessary to realise that it is a very strange and very highly analytical and coldly rational place. Not what any of the critiques of Pod'Lair around imagine, or what anyone who has addressed me on this forum has assumed.

I would refer you to the His Dark Materials Thread ('like Finnegan's Wake', I know), if only to watch the introductory videos on Spengler on the second page... but if you personally have questions or comments, perhaps I can deal with them here.

 

[BigApplePi]

Pod'Lair Critiques

Critiquing Pod'Lair as an art form is quite different from critiquing it as a science or as something socially practical. It does quite well as an art form IMHO. Predicting where it will go socially would not be likely at present. The answer may depend partly on where Pod'Lair itself would like to go.

The way we review Pod'Lair on this Forum has been heavily influenced by the way it has been presented here. Perhaps critiques should be prefaced by indicating whether they are addressing art, science or social practicality.

 

[Architect]

Summary: I didn't learn anything beyond what I've already learned with advanced MBTI on Ti. The information could have been better conveyed if it was written down, and would have taken less time at least, and would have been better thought out, developed and organized.

Checkpoint: At this point I'm continuing to see the pattern that there does appear to be some value in Reading, but outside of that is material not different from, or more developed from advanced MBTI.

Zai Power Flows

0-7:30 Talking about perfection/imperfection. Not useful, truthfully sounds like the adolescent philosophy I came up with many years ago.


7:30-8:30 Talking about the internal nature physical nature of Zai'vyy/ISTP. This is odd, Zai/Ti is internally focused, but internal body awareness (thirst as Tom says) is more the domain of Vai/Si.

9:00"Vai/Si & Zai/Ti are the ready stance of the psyche". Sounds good but low on caloric content. Is that true? Not clear that it is or not.

9:20 Constant qualities, clarity and lucidity. He's trying to get back on track here. Zai has its 'scope' set on perfect. Sure, vaguely ... I would say Zai/Ti is a clarity/lucidity pattern seeker. It doesn't have it always, but is always looking for it. Which Tom is saying to some degree or another, this ties back into his perfect discussion.

13:30 Zai/Ti as a Shepard for the rest of the pod powers/functions. Yes, but only for Zai/Ti dominants. Not for my INFJ wife who is a Ti tertiary, with her Ti is an imperfect advisor.

Why does he look up so much? Looks to be a conscious affectation, inspired by PL probably.

14:40 Precision. Flaws in the system. That's a nice little observation of Zai/Ti.

19:00 Dispassion. Yes, Zai/Ti is at odds with Fe.

25:00 Zai/Ti will figure out how to play a computer game better - diagnostic. Sure. "Perfection is awesome and imperfection is shit". Disagree with this, depending on what he means. Taking the example of problem solving for Zai/Ti, "imperfection" (unsolved problem) is uncomfortable, but exciting. Perfection (finding the solution) is great ... for about 5 minutes.

28:00 "Zai/Ti is fast, so fast you have to figure out what it did afterwards, almost always". I'm doubtful of this. Many times (such as on a problem I'm working on now) it's sloooooowwwwww ... it depends on how difficult the problem you're applying Zai/Ti to.

39 Zai/Ti is a discerning, desconstructive thinking. Absolutely, Te is a constructive type of thinking.

40- Deductive reason - Zai/Ti is to remove confusion from the psyche. Yes, as in right now! My Ti is finding nothing new here ... see summary.

 

[BigApplePi]

A link to the PDF on their site, from my browsing history.

I stand corrected. Rushing around too much this morning.

 

[Architect]

The types of market-leaders we're going up against are honestly little better than astrology columnists in quality.

A value judgement, but I'd point out that regardless they've achieved acceptance and success.

history will come down on our side and recognise how pivotal this is so long as we do that and continue to-- and I'll leave that at that.

OK, you're call.

For me personally, I'm, as I've mentioned to you before, making a prediction in accordance with Spenglerian Meta-History. IMO Western Civilisation will, over the next 200 years, approach a stage in its morphology which parallels the Syncretism which sprung up in Rome around the start of the Common Era.

Possibly. I had similar ideas when younger (not trying to imply the ideas are juvenile but convey my personal development of such). Eventually I came to suspect that the more likely scenario of a Deus Ex Machina in the form of some kind of technological Singularity. The basis for this is strictly observational, what I'm seeing happening from working within the industry and personally in the world culture. It has the force of a physical law and thus I believe it's probably inevitable.

In such a case the search for meaning and identity will be even more important, and in that context PL will likely find a position, so perhaps we are in violent agreement from different directions.

I do appreciate your ideas on this, but to really get where I personally am coming from it's necessary to realise that it is a very strange and very highly analytical and coldly rational place. Not what any of the critiques of Pod'Lair around imagine, or what anyone who has addressed me on this forum has assumed.

I would refer you to the His Dark Materials Thread ('like Finnegan's Wake', I know), if only to watch the introductory videos on Spengler on the second page... but if you personally have questions or comments, perhaps I can deal with them here.

I'm approaching the question of whether to stop or continue with this. When you get to your 40's you have to make the decision whether to trivialize your time or make the most of it. I'm in the latter camp, but considering a Singularity you might wonder why it matters. I'd call it hedging my bets

 

[Words]

I like the style of focusing on a key word to represent an idea. 1:1. It makes things exact. You can reference the abstract reality immediately. It makes it ready for conventional use. It's easier to understand. As with most attempts of new terminologies though, I sense that some ideas are unnecessarily distinct from others. It's not perfectly 1:1. It's better than what I usually encounter though. So many theorists put out something like 5 terms and pretend that they don't all mean the same thing. Well, maybe they don't exactly mean the same thing but there's too much similarity between one concept and another to make sense of things. Exactness makes way for good connections. It makes way for neat logical flows.

I also like the use of common terms. So many daily terms represent so much.

 

[BigApplePi]

Pod'Lair review: Zai

I like the style of focusing on a key word to represent an idea. 1:1. It makes things exact.

Nothing is exact. One of the tools of understanding is everything is fuzzy. (<-- see link) I Know what you mean though Words. We can try to be as precise as we can ... as opposed to beginning with something letting it take us on a joy ride.

Pod'Lair calls "Zai" a concept for "Perfection." MBTI prefers the term, "Thinking." I like the word Thinking because it is more common usage and not as narrow as "Perfection." When it comes to human behavior, thinking may have a fuzzy meaning, but that very quality has the virtue of broad application while "perfection" is more a target than a reality. By narrowing the meaning of thinking, Pod'Lair restricts itself in the short term and attempts to recover later. We can still think of it as an art form.

Words are meant to convey meaning and to distinguish among words having different meanings. We only need to narrow them should they get too close to other words. Restricting or broadening their meaning (as with the word "perfection"), is a luxury. The word becomes a symbol and a power in its own right instead of the original meaning.

 

[own8ge]

Re: Pod'Lair review: Zai

Nothing is exact. One of the tools of understanding is everything is fuzzy. (<-- see link) I Know what you mean though Words. We can try to be as precise as we can ... as opposed to beginning with something letting it take us on a joy ride.

Pod'Lair calls "Zai" a concept for "Perfection." MBTI prefers the term, "Thinking." I like the word Thinking because it is more common usage and not as narrow as "Perfection." When it comes to human behavior, thinking may have a fuzzy meaning, but that very quality has the virtue of broad application while "perfection" is more a target than a reality. By narrowing the meaning of thinking, Pod'Lair restricts itself in the short term and attempts to recover later. We can still think of it as an art form.

Words are meant to convey meaning and to distinguish among words having different meanings. We only need to narrow them should they get too close to other words. Restricting or broadening their meaning (as with the word "perfection"), is a luxury. The word becomes a symbol and a power in its own right instead of the original meaning.

So you would argue Ni dominants to think less compared to the Ti dominant?
I lolled because I would most definitely argue the vice versa... "Thinking" has a very large spectrum of what it actually means, the word sucks. Pod'Lair are a bunch of bitches though. I was in their cult, I commented on a video: "Do not take this offensive as I do not intent it to be. I would like to play with you a little, sexually" And after that, they banned me. hehe
I did learn a thing or two from their video's though.

But yeah, I agree, all those weird names "Zah'Mazuti Sha!" etc.. Who comes up with this shit? lol. I am Nai Zyy kung fu Pow! In this video I will be discussion MahZuti Sha, Zeti Lum and Vyy peroni.

Oh and Adymus is a pain in the ass. IN THE ASS, I TELL YOU! Grandma with male genitalia; the Virgin power ranger gone bad. That is, what he is. (And he is a major hypocrite)

I love you! I love you! I TELL YOU. I LOVE YOU.

 

[Coolydudey]

@Architect (and anyone else interested), perhaps you could summarise at the end of your review the positive points of pod'lair, such as typing tips? It could prove a useful resource for enhancing MBTI and granting a fresh typological perspective...

 

[BigApplePi]

Here is an application of the Six Tools of Understanding. I post it as an exercise and a sampling, not as something exhaustive or deep. There are six tools for understanding:

Perspective, Translation, Distance, Motion, Fuzziness, Hierarchy.

Perspective - MBTI has a perspective on classifying human temperaments. So does Pod'Lair. I haven't seen Socionics, but perhaps it does too.

Translation - the above are different treatments, but about the same thing. Correspondences can be found and translated one to the other.

Distance - MBTI is better known. People on this Forum are close to it but vary with how closely they hold it. Pod'Lair is distant to MBTI people but held close to those within Pod'Lair. Pod'Lair is possibly held at a distance with a difficult to leap boundary.

Motion - MBTI. lots of things going on in research but not coordinated. Pod'Lair. Tightly constructed with rigid, directed motion.

Fuzziness. - MBTI. Difficulty in classifying people via available tests, but classification malleable and applicable. Pod'Lair. Ease in classifying but only if test is available. Once done, what have we?

Hierarchy - BAP may present something later; Pod'Lair has formality and an open hierarchy of sorts.

 

[BigApplePi]

Re: Pod'Lair review: Zai

own8ge

So you would argue Ni dominants to think less compared to the Ti dominant?
I lolled because I would most definitely argue the vice versa... "Thinking" has a very large spectrum of what it actually means, the word sucks.

Did I say that? I've completely lost you. When you say, "vice versa" do you mean Ni dominants think more? To me, Pod'Lair is loaded with Ni dominants. I will have to ponder why and how Ti dominants relate to that. Adymus has said (~2010) that a Ti who is convinced will push his belief (paraphrase) as valid. He has gone over to the Ni beliefs simply because he now believes. Is there a flaw in his thinking? That's my job. My own intuition says there is something missing.

Note this: I've not forgotten Lyra has said I'm obsessed with him. I received that as innuendo but he is half right. I'm driven to find the correct critique of Pod'Lair AND MBTI. I'm driven to put them together. I'm driven to do that and I can only be proven correct if my greatest critic will accept what I say technically. Lyra WILL bend afterall for he has acknowledged the INTP correspondence with Zai'Nyy. The difference in Pod'Lair and the MBTI is more than just Xai codes. It goes to the very heart of thinking versus intuition and my job is to explain that.

I spent some time working on my "Hierarchical Behavior Theory" essay this afternoon. I think I've found an answer if not THE answer. Unfortunately it's hard to express but I will work on it, dammit. Unless it's clear, no one will give a damn.

P.S. If all that love was meant for me, it is appreciated. As EyeSeeCold would say, "It's a cold, cold world out there."

 

[Architect]

@Architect (and anyone else interested), perhaps you could summarise at the end of your review the positive points of pod'lair, such as typing tips? It could prove a useful resource for enhancing MBTI and granting a fresh typological perspective...

@Coolydudey

My intention is that when I complete the review (meaning I reach a sufficient degree of proficiency that I feel I can make a judgement on it) I will submit a full summary in a new thread describing the positive/correct aspects, the negative/incorrect and my conclusion.

I started this thread to save people the trouble of doing it themselves; they can see what I found and decide if it's worth pursuing for themselves.

 

[Lyra]

@Architect, leaving presentation aside, I think you may have missed the point of the Power flows.

Each power is assigned a 'concept of' and a distinct way it unfolds through time and the Peaking Cycle. This doesn't really come through only looking at one, but when you conceive of them all in terms of that structure...

1) It's far more accurate than any other descriptions around
2) It's phenomenological, in the sense that it actually accurately captures how the power kicks in and how to feel for/direct this process
3) the way powers work as a whole is really clarified

It's also based on clean samples. You still haven't addressed how it could be that Pod'Lair is no better than MBTI whilst having so far superior results in terms of read identification, and how this alone is surely the best way to form accurate individual representations and siphon off inaccurate/unfalsifiable ways/bases for looking at this all.

Or the real time aspect I described, the real-time energy flows, etc. etc. Or the long post I made laying out how the whole theory unfolds from that on the last page.

Or momentum/modulation dynamic, as mentioned there.

It's really ridiculous to still be asserting that this is no different than 'advanced' MBTI without showing just how any of that fits into it.

 

[Architect]

@Lyra

Architect, leaving presentation aside, I think you may have missed the point of the Power flows.

I'm sure I missed the point.

Each power is assigned a 'concept of' and a distinct way it unfolds through time and the Peaking Cycle. This doesn't really come through only looking at one, but when you conceive of them all in terms of that structure...

1) It's far more accurate than any other descriptions around
2) It's phenomenological, in the sense that it actually accurately captures how the power kicks in and how to feel for/direct this process
3) the way powers work as a whole is really clarified

It's also based on clean samples.

OK, but I don't know what you mean here. What precisely is the Peaking Cycle? What does it mean they are assigned the 'Concept of'? What do you mean by clean samples? Continually I see a lot of referents and terminology which mean nothing to me. Makes it tough.

You still haven't addressed how it could be that Pod'Lair is no better than MBTI whilst having so far superior results in terms of read identification, and how this alone is surely the best way to form accurate individual representations and siphon off inaccurate/unfalsifiable ways/bases for looking at this all.

I'm not disagreeing

Or the real time aspect I described, the real-time energy flows, etc. etc. Or the long post I made laying out how the whole theory unfolds from that on the last page.

OK, I'll read that. However without a roadmap I'm just hopping around, hoping I'll find something that sticks. Wastes a lot of time and slows everything down.

It's really ridiculous to still be asserting that this is no different than 'advanced' MBTI without showing just how any of that fits into it.

Remember I'm not really asserting anything, until I get to the end. This thread should have been titled "Pod'Lair Review Blog". I'm presenting my findings in realtime as a core-dump. These are my notes which will coalesce into a conclusion eventually, but I'm still open-minded. Mrs Architect is amazed I'm still 'putting up with it' as she puts it. She would have given up long ago. My intellectual rigor and self respect won't be satisfied until I figure out whether there's meat on the bone.

 

[Architect]

OK, I'll watch the "Nyy Power Flows video" next without taking such close notes on what is being said. I'll sit back, watch the trippy colors and try to Ne/Nyy my way to understanding it.

 

[Lyra]

Sure. Also try getting the gist of the general structure being presented, given what you've already seen with the Zai one.

So, there's a concept, and then a flow from source concerns down to more gross behavioural manifestations. This flow is usually (possibly always, will check) divided into 3 x 3-point sections, each of which has their own sub-heading that characterises the overall function of its 3 points. Comparing the way the 3 point sections are different between different powers gives an overall map. This map is in its totality far more precise and phenomenologically accurate than any other map out there.

For example, 'innate hunger' is used for the first 3-point section Nai and Vai, whereas 'constant qualities' is used for the first the first 3-point section of Zai and Xai. Comparing Xai and Zai then gives a very precise understanding of what each of the points, and the words used in those points, means. Same with Xai to Xyy, or Zai to Nai.

This also applies to each of the other 3-point sections, and to seeing how the energy is variously described as developing from 1>9.

I'm not saying that's one of the easiest parts of the theory to quickly grasp. But it does represent the phenomenon as is (any simpler would be misrepresentation) and it is very different than MBTI. And it has far superior potential for high-level self-understanding of the kind you've mentioned being interested in.

I would file it under 'advanced', though. You don't need to work with this material to follow the course on Reading I recommended to you earlier in this thread. But it is useful to know it's there, and what kind of structure it has-- and that it is very much more structured and accurate a presentation of the way Powers work than has ever been presented elsewhere.

@Architect

 

[Lyra]

At this stage in Pod'Lair's rollout, there is so much depth and layered inter-connected precision to the theory that... we really haven't constructed an 'exegesis' for a lot of it. Everybody involved has figured it out for themselves either from the kinds of material available now (or far less than it) or by discovering it. A lot of information is only given as a system of pure info and patterns which is superlatively useful and effective when used in conjunction with dedicated Reading training, but which is not yet given in anything less than pure form. A lot of getting it is about feeling it out. Testing the words against practical experience, using them as guides to experiencing and discovering the phenomenon for yourself instead of assuming that they are the theory themselves.

IMO this trains the intuition, is desirable (given currently abhorrent standards of intellectual laziness and mundane label-attribution), and filters for the perspicacious and talented. IMO people who complain would never have discovered this for themselves, and are really being given a gift about which they're not in a position to make demands (about what the phenomenon should be, or how simple it should be, or how hard to represent etc.) That said we are always striving to make this easier to understand and communicate, so more and more glossaries and exegeses will be presented as time goes on. But there is, IMO, a risk in that of people not looking beyond the words and re-constructing the whole understanding for themselves by practical experimentation and investigation-- through Reading, using materials as a guide, trying to find the actual referent for words we use (always something Readable) instead of assuming some glossary summary is the referent.

For now it's best for newcomers to focus on Reading and how it practically is superior to anything else available as a kind of Proof of Concept, and as a route into the associated/derived/relevant material. A proper realisation of its implications alone should occur in the insightful, and motivate them to both investigate thoroughly and to withhold judgement until having done so.

At this stage we are interested in pioneers and players, not consumers. We give a lot, but we don't really want people who can't do the rest for themselves, given the info available. It's indicative of a lack of meme-independent talent and development. Our plans for those people are further down the line. (And, about the time argument, no really groundbreaking field was trying to tailor itself to those kinds of requirements in its truly developmental stages. It just doesn't work like that. We're not out for consumers so we won't either.)

 

[Architect]

@Lyra

So, there's a concept, and then a flow from source concerns down to more gross behavioural manifestations. This flow is usually (possibly always, will check) divided into 3 x 3-point sections, each of which has their own sub-heading that characterises the overall function of its 3 points. Comparing the way the 3 point sections are different between different powers gives an overall map. This map is in its totality far more precise and phenomenologically accurate than any other map out there.

OK

For example, 'innate hunger' is used for the first 3-point section Nai and Vai, whereas 'constant qualities' is used for the first the first 3-point section of Zai and Xai.

OK, 'innate hunger' makes some sense for Vai/Si, as that is an internal body physical function/mojo (Personality Junkie made this point recently). And 'constant qualities' ... sure, that could be an adjective for Zai/Ti, as that is logic oriented thinking. Now ...

Comparing Xai and Zai then gives a very precise understanding of what each of the points, and the words used in those points, means. Same with Xai to Xyy, or Zai to Nai.

Hm, you lose me here. What is imprecise, is the matter of 3's. Why 3x3? Why does that come down to 3 point, and then seemingly lost when it distilles down 'innate hunger'? The correspondence between 'innate hunger' and 3x3 is not clear.

Further, 'innate hunger' and 'constant qualities' aren't precise, they are adjectives that could mean a lot of things. How does comparing the two give precise understanding of the mojos? I believe I understand what you mean here, but I don't see how imprecise concepts result in precise conclusions.

I would file it under 'advanced', though.

That's fine, but again I'm hearing what you say it is, and I think understanding what you are saying it is, but the results I'm seeing aren't what you say.

 

[Architect]

Summary: I got less from this than the previous, and this time I sat back, tried to 'zone' into what he was saying and just watched the trippy effects. Empty words that didn't do anything.

Checkpoint: It's looking like the knowledge available to PL is not of a form very amenable to Reason. This is reminding me of the time I belonged to a 'sang-ha' (I'll try anything once) which is a pseudo-Buddhist group (pseu-boo). The claims where somewhat similar and the path to understanding was similar. There you had to make some leap of faith before the full truth became available. Which is when I left, if you have to suspend Reason then you open yourself up to believing anything. Many other aspects of the group are the same as this, there was a lead male, acolytes, etc. The pattern I'm seeing here is of descriptions and words that don't really mean anything by themselves and you get a blank wall when you try to find the precision of what is being said.

Now this isn't entirely a fair comparison, that group made claims of 'astral travel' and psychic mind reading. The PL people merely claim a way to better manage your 'powers', however none of the 'theory' is making it across as an actual theory to me. I'm still open minded however.

Next: I'm giving up on these videos and will drop the last two. Instead next I'll get back to Reading, I did see value there before.

Ne

 

[Lyra]

Checkpoint: It's looking like the knowledge available to PL is not of a form very amenable to Reason. This is reminding me of the time I belonged to a 'sang-ha' (I'll try anything once) which is a pseudo-Buddhist group (pseu-boo). The claims where somewhat similar and the path to understanding was similar. There you had to make some leap of faith before the full truth became available. Which is when I left, if you have to suspend Reason then you open yourself up to believing anything. Many other aspects of the group are the same as this, there was a lead male, acolytes, etc. The pattern I'm seeing here is of descriptions and words that don't really mean anything by themselves and you get a blank wall when you try to find the precision of what is being said.

Now this isn't entirely a fair comparison, that group made claims of 'astral travel' and psychic mind reading. The PL people merely claim a way to better manage your 'powers', however none of the 'theory' is making it across as an actual theory to me. I'm still open minded however.

I know this is your blog and all, but your research skills aren't the best. What I claimed in the last post was that the intended referent of the videos you're watching is something approached through Reading. Reading is, at its more literal levels, falsifiable and there and far more amenable to reasoned interrogation and analysis than is any typological system. The referents are very clear (bi-field face, spider hands, etc.)-- the same principle applies all the way through the system, but a more advanced skill-set is needed to find some of that useful/applicable.

Your characterisations are wrong and honestly very insulting. I haven't taken any leaps of faith and I've laid out my view on Pod'Lair here in great detail and depth. That you'd just stick some ten-a-penny cult/mystic analogy onto all of Pod'Lair as an 'explanation' when the only individual member you've interacted with approaches it like that is just lazy thinking. Both had a 'lead male'-- are you serious? This need to constantly, publicly display incompetence by preventing a summative abstraction from insufficient data after every few minutes of incomplete research baffles me.

I'm taking the time to try and help you out with all of this, but I grasped everything I'm explaining to you on my own (as somebody approaching Pod'Lair doing my own research) and in quite a short amount of time.

That said returning to Reading does sound like the best course of action.

 

[InvisibleJim]

The claims where somewhat similar and the path to understanding was similar. There you had to make some leap of faith before the full truth became available. Which is when I left, if you have to suspend Reason then you open yourself up to believing anything. Many other aspects of the group are the same as this, there was a lead male, acolytes, etc. The pattern I'm seeing here is of descriptions and words that don't really mean anything by themselves and you get a blank wall when you try to find the precision of what is being said.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxJyfqeaKU8

 

[Lyra]

You people are all retarded. Why the did I have to be born into a species filled with so many imperceptive morons.

 

[Architect]

@Lyra

I know this is your blog and all, but your research skills aren't the best.

Well I've worked at the highest level of physics research at an international level, and corporate research in measurement science since for my entire working life, so I'm not sure what to make of that. At any rate ...

What I claimed in the last post was that the intended referent of the videos you're watching is something approached through Reading. Reading is, at its more literal levels, falsifiable and there and far more amenable to reasoned interrogation and analysis than is any typological system.

I got that, however what of my questions above on trying to arrive at a precise meaning of ... ah shit, I see the problem, we have a misunderstanding. You know the forums have some weird behavior, at least in Safari. I see you gave a reply to my post, but when I refreshed this morning it didn't show up so I thought it got ignored. I'll read it and get back to you.

Your characterisations are wrong and honestly very insulting. I haven't taken any leaps of faith and I've laid out my view on Pod'Lair here in great detail and depth. That you'd just stick some ten-a-penny cult/mystic analogy onto all of Pod'Lair as an 'explanation' when the only individual member you've interacted with approaches it like that is just lazy thinking.

Apologies, I was afraid you'd feel this way. Again you have to understand the approach I'm taking, which is dumping everything that is coming to mind. This is how I do my investigation, everything is a possibility (see The Maze Metaphor on Personality Junkie), including that you have the Kings Jewels, or that it is a cult group as some have claimed. I'm doing this in this thread to try and clear the air on this topic. By putting all my thoughts out there I'm giving people a chance to see that I've considered all angles, and I'm giving you a chance to refute them. I'm not saying you are a cult group, but that I can't help seeing a (possibly false, possibly true) comparison.

So honestly try to have a thick skin about it, I'm not trying to insult you and am keeping an open mind, however it is true that I'm reminded of that other group, and indeed other people have made similar comparisons. With the marketing approach taken its somewhat inevitable I think.

That said returning to Reading does sound like the best course of action.

I'll read your last post (which was missed) and go to reading next.

EDIT: OK I read your post. That makes sense, but I still don't have answers to my questions above ('innate hunger' etc). This is 'the wall' I'm talking about, when I try to zero in on a meaning of some concept I hit a wall, or rather blank air. I understand that not all knowledge is necessarily or easily available to logical reasoning - I'm a musician and this is true of music where it has to be experienced - but I have yet to find an example of where Truth can't be approximated by this approach.

 

[InvisibleJim]

You people are all retarded. Why the did I have to be born into a species filled with so many imperceptive morons.

Yolo Lyra.

 

[BigApplePi]

You people are all retarded. Why the did I have to be born into a species filled with so many imperceptive morons.

@Lyra. That is an excellent question* and you brought it up. Since you yourself must not be a moron, what do you think the answer is?

It could be important to answer this for it affects the progress of this thread. One person is offering to teach. Another person is a willing student. The teacher explains. The learner states how far he has gotten, where he is at, and what hinders his progress. Assuming the subject to be learned is there, available and learnable, how can we proceed?
____________________

*At first I thought it not a question as I missed the question mark at the end.

 

[Architect]

One person is offering to teach. Another person is a willing student. The teacher explains. The learner states how far he has gotten, where he is at, and what hinders his progress. Assuming the subject to be learned is there, available and learnable, how can we proceed?

To elaborate my approach it's best to read this excellent post

We begin with the premise that INTPs seek convergent truth. This is not only consistent with my observations of and experiences with INTPs, but is also predicted by the fact that their dominant function, Introverted Thinking (Ti), is a Judging function, which points to their intention to come to convergence, closure, and certainty. With that said, I also suggest, in concert with Schallock, that we cannot ignore the role and importance of the other three functions. ...

in trying to make their way from Ti to Fe, from one “known” to another, INTPs are faced with a theoretically infinite number of divergent points or potentials (i.e., “dead ends,” “false leads,” or “rabbit trails”) along the way. Without access to a “bird’s-eye view,” (which we might think of as being reserved primarily for INJ types), the INTP cannot see a direct route from Ti to Fe. His view is limited to what can be seen from his current location in the maze (the option to go left or right, but not straight ahead, for example). Then, using these “knowns” (Ti), he proceeds to consider his theoretical options by way of Extraverted Intuition (Ne)). Bear in mind that, at this point, it is virtually impossible to determine the benefits of choosing one direction over another. But by trying each theoretical option, the INTP is able to determine which paths don’t work in hopes of eventually finding the path that does work.

This perfectly describes how I spend most of my time, now and in the past, and how I'm conducting this little investigation. I started with a blank mind (as blank as I could make it) and proceeded. The Reading part was a high point, I was beginning to think there really was something there, this was a path in the maze that is looking good. But now, after going through the videos of Ti & Ne (I'm too lazy to look up the PL equivalents and I don't naturally remember them) I'm at a path which seems to be a dead end.

I hope Lyra isn't insulted, but he has to understand that I got more from reading that one article quote above, indeed more from those two paragraphs then I got from two hours* of listening to Tom discuss Ti & Ne. As I said the Maze Metaphor truth is immediately apparent; the most fun, interesting and transcendent times I've had in life have been when learning something new by searching through the maze looking for the truth at the end. And the maze article was plainly written, it was understandable, the PL videos haven't been.

That could be due to the nature of what they are trying to teach - I'm OK with that, but ... well, at some point you have to cut your losses, so I think that dropping these videos is probably best at this time.

* To put that in an economic perspective, my time bills out at about $100/hour, so those videos cost me approximately $200.

 

[Lyra]

* To put that in an economic perspective, my time bills out at about $100/hour, so those videos cost me approximately $200.

My last 3 girlfriends all earned at least 6x that amount. And I'm an interdimensional alien emissary who scored 100% in every subject in final/national examinations. Let's not patronise one another here.

Well I've worked at the highest level of physics research at an international level, and corporate research in measurement science since for my entire working life, so I'm not sure what to make of that. At any rate ...

Again, my credentials (for my age) have always been good, in so far as I've cared to have them. So what? I still see the people who examined me or whose games and institutions I played as being subject to critical oversights, retard-level social credulity, and general epistemological sycophancy. Position has never been any guarantee of competence or self-possession, in that regard. I'd pride myself on the very predilection for insight into and involvement with fringe and supposedly extreme movements/activities/individuals that will likely prevent me continuing on their path much longer far more than on any accolades they have given or can give.

Let's level with one another here. I respect demonstrable competence in perceiving and interacting with new phenomena as is. In empathising, understanding, and rationally reflecting. Individually and fully, not in terms of the social landscape of memetic assignations and assumptions and shallow forms which it is so, so easy to gain the stupid majority's respect in terms of. Almost everybody on this forum is incompetent to even engage in such an activity (lazy immediate reaction/assumption in accordance with a tawdry, superficial image of rationality is the norm). Anybody who's going to earn my respect will do so by demonstrating to me that they're far above that norm, not by referencing involvement in things commonly respected.

 

[InvisibleJim]

My last 3 girlfriends all earned at least 6x that amount. And I'm an interdimensional alien emissary who scored 100% in every subject in final/national examinations. Let's not patronise one another here.

Not sure if serious.

 

[Architect]

My last 3 girlfriends all earned at least 6x that amount. And I'm an interdimensional alien emissary who scored 100% in every subject in final/national examinations. Let's not patronise one another here.

Unfortunatly our communication has taken a turn for the worse, hopefully we can save it. I merely meant that as an indicator of my cost function for path navigation

Again, my credentials (for my age) have always been good, in so far as I've cared to have them. So what? I still see the people who examined me or whose games and institutions I played as being subject to critical oversights, retard-level social credulity, and general epistemological sycophancy. Position has never been any guarantee of competence or self-possession, in that regard. I'd pride myself on the very predilection for insight into fringe and supposedly extreme movements/activities that will likely prevent me continuing on their path much longer far more than on any accolades they have given or can give.

Let's level with one another here. I respect demonstrable competence in perceiving and interacting with new phenomena as is. In empathising, understanding, and rationally reflecting.]

I'm not questioning your competence, but am providing a run log of my thoughts.

Perhaps if we could instead continue the 'innate hunger' discussion above? Can you help me precisely understand what you meant by that?

 

[Lyra]

Ok sure. Will probably get to it tomorrow.

 

[BigApplePi]

Architect (copy Lyra).

As I said the Maze Metaphor truth is immediately apparent; the most fun, interesting and transcendent times I've had in life have been when learning something new by searching through the maze looking for the truth at the end. And the maze article was plainly written, it was understandable, the PL videos haven't been.

That could be due to the nature of what they are trying to teach

For the INTP I like the idea of the maze: Entering the maze, confronting possibilities, experiencing and discarding, and looking forward to the end point. That is exactly what I like to do even though for all that I'm not a confirmed INTP.

A good part of the problem is we are dealing with an INFJ guide and a Pod'Lair topic which is a good part (not all) INFJ oriented. So let's look at INFJ ~ NaiXyy from the INTP POV.

INFJ = Ni Fe Ti Se. The INTP avoids conscious Ni. Why? It's like starting at the end of the maze. Leading Fe is way premature. It seems presumptuous. The Ti's are in different ballparks and can't compete with each other. One is major league; the other is a supporting role. Se is foreign to the INTP. It is used only under initial conditions and soon discarded. Hence lack of communication.

Even this description may fail a NaiXyy. That's poor Fe on my part. If I were going to do better, I would have used Pod'Lair language and researched every step of what I said in Pod'Lair. But I failed to do that. Hence I'm a moron in Pod'Lair's eyes.

Here's one reading (conceptual) I give an NaiXyy ~ INFJ = Ni Fe Ti Se.
I have a vision of where I want to go (Ni). I will spread the word around (Fe). I will support this with proper thinking (Ti). My target is presentation. (Se). ..... <-- does this fall short?

 

[Da Blob]

Science and Pseudoscience in Clinical Psychology

One of the major goals of this book is to distinguish scientific from pseudoscientific claims in clinical psychology. To accomplish this goal, however, we must first delineate the principal differences between scientific and pseudoscientific research programs. As one of us has noted elsewhere (Lilienfeld, 1998), science probably differs from pseudoscience in degree rather than in kind. Science and pseudoscience can be thought of as Roschian (Rosch, 1973) or open (Meehl & Golden, 1982; Pap, 1953) con- cepts, which possess intrinsically fuzzy boundaries and an indefinitely extendable list of indicators. Nevertheless, the fuzziness of such categories does not mean that distinctions between science and pseudoscience are fictional or entirely arbitrary. As psychophysicist S. S. Stevens observed, the fact that the precise boundary between day and night is indistinct does not imply that day and night cannot be meaningfully differentiated (see Leahey & Leahey, 1983). From this perspective, pseudosciences can be conceptualized as possessing a fallible, but nevertheless useful, list of indicators or “warning signs.” The more such warning signs a discipline exhibits, the more it begins to cross the murky dividing line separating science from pseudoscience (see also Herbert et al., 2000). A number of philosophers of science (e.g., Bunge, 1984) and psychologists (e.g., Ruscio, 2001) have outlined some of the most frequent features of pseudoscience. Among these features are the following (for further discussions, see Herbert et al., 2000; Hines, 1988; Lilienfeld, 1998):

(list follows)

http://www.guilford.com/excerpts/lilienfeld.pdf

I wonder why the West Coast is such a haven for pseudoscientific cults? Oh well, at least it is easier to offer therapy to former members of these cults, than former members of pseudo-relgious cults like the Branch Davidians...

 

[Architect]

Architect, Lyra).
For the INTP I like the idea of the maze: Entering the maze, confronting possibilities, experiencing and discarding, and looking forward to the end point. That is exactly what I like to do even though for all that I'm not a confirmed INTP.

Yes maybe I'm asking too much, or too little, but what I'm seeking is something like that article. I can read it, the meaning is readily apparent, and gives me something to think about to deepen my understanding. Perhaps PL isn't amenable in that way - yes it could be a more complex theory - but if I could get to understand even one concept that made sense, was new, insightful and useful then I'd be happy at this point.

A good part of the problem is we are dealing with an INFJ guide and a Pod'Lair topic which is a good part (not all) INFJ oriented. So let's look at INFJ ~ NaiXyy from the INTP POV.

Interesting point. My experience with INFJ's (married to one) is that they live in a complex, I'd say convoluted world that is hard to explain. They usually aren't good at explaining their internal world either. It took me, oh, about 20 years to understand what Mrs INFJ wants in a house! She could never express it in a way that made any kind of sense. Ni is too strong, and Ti too weak for her to convey the richness of her inner world. Also with Fe secondary she speaks in the language of emotion, and I speak in the language of thinking. This is when we miscommunicate.

Yes, perhaps something like this is going on here. I think Tom says he is INFJ, as does Lyra. Tom is speaking in hints and allusions, which seem to have great meaning for him and his followers, but don't make sense to an Ti outsider. Adymus made sense of it, but it seems he is also in the same location.

 

[Architect]

I'VE GOT IT!!!!

@Lyra

Summary: I found a highly useful video which not only makes sense, but corresponds with my personal experience and observations. I've taken detailed notes and will practice some reading with this more refined system.

====================
Watching this video

1st Gear

This is testable, sensible, and corresponds to observations I've made but haven't made systematic. This stuff is great! Notes

1st Gear
Seeing the pod Powers/Functions as physical cues

Rear Right of psyche, Zai (Ti), Xai (Fi)
• Eyes/disengage go to right (up, side or down)
⁃ Zai/Ti is more of a 'check' (yang quality)
⁃ Xai/Fi is more of a drifting to the right (yin quality)

Front Right of psyche, Nyy (Ne) Vyy (Se)
• Widening of eyes, carriage lift (opening up). Objective/Perception powers, there's a drinking in of the environment. Eye's widening, perk up, carriage lift.
⁃ Nyy/Ne = dancing eyes, widening of eyes, eyes are sort of bobbing one place to the other, a lilting
⁃ Vyy/Se = Laser eyes. Directed, pulling information from the world.
• The Carriage lift happens when the objective/perceptive power is super stimulated. Lifting of the torso, along with the head and the eyes
⁃ Nyy/Ne (buoyant carriage lift with dancing eyes)
⁃ Vyy/Se (an 'amped' quality with laser eyes)

Rear Left of psyche, Nai(Ni), Vai (Si)
• Disengage to the left (up, side or down)
⁃ Nai/Ni 'Ni drift', has a drifting look (Yin quality)
⁃ Vai/Si 'Si check', directed (Yang quality), grabbing a specific memory, very precise

Front Left of psyche, Xyy (Fe), Zyy (Te) (objective discernment powers)
• Articulation (verbal and non verbal)
⁃ Xyy/Fe Warm articulation
⁃ Zyy/Te Cool articulation
• Jutting (looks like head butting, occurs when it gets revved up)
⁃ Zyy/Te Cool 'head butting'.
⁃ Xyy/Fe Warm 'head butting'.

Not sure where these go in the table/TBD
• (Discernment powers)Mouth tightening on the right, accessing Zai/Ti or Xai/Fi
• (Discernment powers)Mouth tension on the left, accessing XyyF/Fe or Zyy/Te
⁃ Zai/Zyy 'grimace'
⁃ Discernment power Rictus
⁃ Xyy,Zyy on the left rictus
⁃ Sneer (Xyy sneer (disgust), Zai sneer (like a animal))
• Shrugs
⁃ Left, right, both
⁃ Right = Zai, Xai (discernment powers on right)
⁃ Left Xyy, Zyy

 

[InvisibleJim]

I wonder why the West Coast is such a haven for pseudoscientific cults?

Generally erroneously well meaning parents coupled with a large middle class and a celebrity culture?

Summary: I found a highly useful video which not only makes sense, but corresponds with my personal experience and observations. I've taken detailed notes and will practice some reading with this more refined system.

It would be nice to tabulate these all, it's clear that pod'lair identifies 8 potential bunches of expressional cues; but they are absolutely wrapped up in colour filters instead of workable references.

I also don't understand how they categorise which two are what I would term the 'primary-ego' block in addition, which takes precedence.

I also don't understand the logic behind why some drifts/checks are disengaging and others aren't in addition to how these relate to the attitude (essentially intro-vs-extro) of the pod-powers at play.

 

[Architect]

Drilling down, here are the cues for an INTP, am I missing any?

INTP Cues

• Ti Check to the right
• Ne Dancing eyes, carriage lift when engaged
• Si Check to the left
• Fe Warm articulation, head butting when engaged
• General Spider hands (fingers separated)

 

[Lyra]

@Architect

Those are the basic 1st gear ones, yes. Also leaning to the right or left, or tilting the head-- but that can get a little more to do with higher gear signals. Also right and left rictus etc. (contortions of the mouth) in combination with the same kinds of signals for the eye-checks (or warming, for Xyy).

Spider hands also falls under Yang vs. Yin gesturing etc., and the very obvious/testable patterns there.

I guess the obvious next step (as you said) would be to apply what you've learned from that video in Reading, and to work through the other gear videos on MRR.

 

[BigApplePi]

Summary: I found a highly useful video which not only makes sense, but corresponds with my personal experience and observations. I've taken detailed notes and will practice some reading with this more refined system.

Nice work Architect. Now that information can be checked out. When you say you will practice reading, do you mean in your personal life or Pod'Lair videos?