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Owning pets is immoral

Tannhauser

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To take on a pet is essentially making an animal dependent on you. The animal has no choice, of course (unless it is a cat*), but to accept the food and shelter which is provided by the owner. This creates the illusion that the pet likes its situation – after all, it comes back for food every time – but the situation of the pet is no different than the situation of a prisoner: they are imprisoned but they depend on the food which is provided by the jailer.

So in essence, owning a pet is a purely selfish endeavor: it is an artificially synthesized co-dependency, meant to serve only the owner.

*A cat never really becomes dependent on an owner, like a dog does. It accepts the food it gets, but at any point it can say "fuck you" and leave, and living quite well by hunting rats etc.
 

Ex-User (9086)

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Is adopting a pet from a shelter to increase the happiness of both parties also immoral?
I'm sensing an SJW trap in this thread.
 

Tannhauser

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You guys are seeing the issue from the perspective of already assuming the fact that the dog is dependent on you. They are – but because they have been genetically designed to be helpless without us. The natural dog is a wolf – which lives in packs out in the wild. The worst nightmare imaginable for a wolf is to be kept imprisoned inside a house with a human all day long.

It is similar to taking a human and genetically alter his brain/physical-attributes so as to make him dependent on you, and then saying "Look, he'll die without me. Hence I am justified in keeping him with a dog collar around his neck".

How to de-domesticate them? Very simple: just don't breed more specimens of helpless creatures. It wouldn't take more than a dog's lifespan – 15 years or whatever to completely de-domesticate all dogs.
 

Rook

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With that reasoning, parenting is immoral and children should be left in the wilds to prevent them to become independent on a food source. Perhaps parenting then is immoral or what have you, but it creates a two-way situation, where the parents get the chance to raise another ape into the world and the child gets the chance at social contact and an initially easier life.

Where do you get your food? Let as assume at a supermarket. Is the supermarket then immoral for breeding dependency? Is the government immoral for enforcing a capitalist system where paid slaves labour so that people can become dependent on the supermarket? With your reasoning of pet-owner relationship being unnatural, how much more unnatural is the current state of humans who thrive in capitalistic economies?

Keeping pets is not a selfish endeavor, as log as one keeps the mental and physical health of the animal as a priority consideration.
If you have dogs, you can take them to walk with you. They can hunt. They can still roam about, but at their own pleasure instead out of necessity.
Scratching and stroking a dog or cat is far from selfish, the animals clearly gain pleasure from it, some dogs will force their ears under your hands just so that you can scratch them.
One need only to observe an animal to see whether they are happy with the arrangement.

Owning a pet in an urban area is more of a fallacy than pets in rural areas, because the former is more akin to imprisonment. Having animals on a farm or a sizable plot of land, or at least a yard that they can roam with nature aplenty is more acceptable than animals in the house or cramped spaces. That I will concede is not conducive to the health of these animals.

Remember that animals such as cats and dogs have been genetically adapted by human selection and are thus more used to the companionship of humans. The cat I live with wandered about the farm, catching his own prey. I stroked him and he followed me, whereupon I provided food and shelter more congenial than what he previously was used too. He can wander away at any time, as you say, but he obviously gains a greater chance at survival and shelter in remaining with a human.

It is an instinctual method of ensuring your survival by finding a being to hunt and care for you, much like an adult mooching off their parents.

You guys are seeing the issue from the perspective of already assuming the fact that the dog is dependent on you. They are – but because they have been genetically designed to be helpless without us. The natural dog is a wolf – which lives in packs out in the wild. The worst nightmare imaginable for a wolf is to be kept imprisoned inside a house with a human all day long.

Dogs are not wolves. They were once wolves who decided that co-habitation with humans would be beneficial. (The pack mentality remains, albeit in a much altered state)

Go to the third world, the packs of stray dogs do not act as wolves. They act as scavengers, continuing their genetic predisposition towards reliance on tall apes for sustenance.

Keeping a dog in a house is wrong, as stated above, but rural dogs have more freedom and enjoyment.
 

Happy

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It's basically Stockholm Syndrome and the more you think about it, the more fucked up it is.

In the example of dogs, would a more obedient dog be a greater victim of the Stockholm Syndrome? - Because it subjects itself more to it's master's will.
 

Tannhauser

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With that reasoning, parenting is immoral and children should be left in the wilds to prevent them to become independent on a food source. Perhaps parenting then is immoral or what have you, but it creates a two-way situation, where the parents get the chance to raise another ape into the world and the child gets the chance at social contact and an initially easier life.
Children have not been artificially genetically designed and conditioned to be helpless. Besides – keeping someone dependent on you throughout their lifetime is a different thing than rearing them and then allowing them freedom to live as they wish.

Dogs are not wolves. They were once wolves who decided that co-habitation with humans would be beneficial. (The pack mentality remains, albeit in a much altered state)t.
I am genuinely not sure if you are serious here. The wolves decided to live with humans? Come on...
 

Nofriends

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You guys are seeing the issue from the perspective of already assuming the fact that the dog is dependent on you. They are – but because they have been genetically designed to be helpless without us. The natural dog is a wolf – which lives in packs out in the wild. The worst nightmare imaginable for a wolf is to be kept imprisoned inside a house with a human all day long.

It is similar to taking a human and genetically alter his brain/physical-attributes so as to make him dependent on you, and then saying "Look, he'll die without me. Hence I am justified in keeping him with a dog collar around his neck".

How to de-domesticate them? Very simple: just don't breed more specimens of helpless creatures. It wouldn't take more than a dog's lifespan – 15 years or whatever to completely de-domesticate all dogs.

I see where you are coming from...
We didn't alter the dogs though, I think some crazy scientist did it...
If there is an organism dependent on you, and it makes a house more harmonious, and it benefits both parties, and then you neglect it, is that not immoral?
We are going from the morality of altering a dog, to whether or not dog ownership is immoral... two completely different things.
 

Rook

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Children have not been artificially genetically designed and conditioned to be helpless. Besides – keeping someone dependent on you throughout their lifetime is a different thing than rearing them and then allowing them freedom to live as they wish.
True enough, though humans do become somewhat dependent on the manner in which they are raised, the ways in which they are taught how to attain food and so forth.

Once again, the rural parable comes into play. I have known dogs on farms that have in fact wandered off away from their owners, for they had the freedom to do so. These are usually dogs who know how to hunt, so relative degrees of dependency come into play depending on where the dogs are living and how they were raised. Similar to, say, a hunter in the Amazon and a CEO who buys a bagel ^.^



I am genuinely not sure if you are serious here. The wolves decided to live with humans? Come on...

As I sketchily recall the prominent theory, it started as a matter of scavenging wolves growing more accustomed to human presence, but seeing as we lived not in those times, capture and conditioning may also be likely.
Regardless, they are not wolves now, they have evolved through human interference, just as sheep, cattle, chickens, horses, pigs, goldfish etc. etc. have under the selective hand of our species. Some species are more dependent, yes, but dogs generally have a greater freedom than most of them.
 

redbaron

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No, it's mutualism.

Benefits of pet ownership to both animals and humans are well documented.

/thread

EDIT: inb4 "mutualism is immoral"
 

Tannhauser

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No, it's mutualism.

Benefits of pet ownership to both animals and humans are well documented.

/thread

EDIT: inb4 "mutualism is immoral"

Your link describes the psychological benefits of having pets. I don't doubt those – owning a slave is probably also psychologically beneficial for the owner. Mutualism, as a symbiosis between two organisms in nature is different, as I already have mentioned, than artificially making an animal dependent on you. A prisoner in your basement will benefit from you feeding him – is that "mutualism"?
 

Artsu Tharaz

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I have a parrot.

It comes and goes as it pleases me.

Now, tomorrow I wouldn't have had such a thing, but otherwise it's quite fascinating.

However, I digress, for I planned such things before I had come by the other view to take, such as this.

That all life depends on all others, and hence your option is to detach from the world, then detach every part of your mind from every other part until you have atomic subdivisions into quantum intro-communicatory proto-universe dispersion.

Good day.
 

Tannhauser

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How can anyone prove, one way another, whether it is natural for a dog to be owned by a human? Very simple: consider the dog collar and the leash. The reason we have those, is that by its own nature, the dog will behave differently than what we humans want it to. But somehow the dog owners find it natural to decide for the dog its limits of freedom, while fully maintaining that the dog wants, by its own will, to live under their ownership.
 

onesteptwostep

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This is really pointless but it does bring up interesting points. Take North Korea for example, where the people there have lived inside only in their provinces and have no contact with the outside world. These people, if you interview them, consider their way of life better than the lives lived outside their country. While it's true that they've been conditioned to act and stay this way, if they say they're fine with it, is it fair that we consider their condition immoral? Is the regime evil? Or is it just sustaining a way of life?
 

Rook

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How can anyone prove, one way another, whether it is natural for a dog to be owned by a human? Very simple: consider the dog collar and the leash. The reason we have those, is that by its own nature, the dog will behave differently than what we humans want it to. But somehow the dog owners find it natural to decide for the dog its limits of freedom, while fully maintaining that the dog wants, by its own will, to live under their ownership.

Once again, not all dogs are leashed. To me the concept of walking a dog is them running freely about the farm, at times chasing the odd guinea fowl or vervet monkey.

Ownership is not the same as mutualism, as redbaron stated.
If some people keep dogs confined in their houses or cemented backyards and walk them on the leash, this does not mean that all people do so.
There are different degrees of human-animal relationships, and one practice does not reflect the fallacy of all these relationships, for it is not statistically representative.
If the argument of immorality is fielded, then one must at least take into consideration all the variants of these relationships, or outline which relationships are seen as morally deviant.

Shortened, that means that some people do not treat animals as 'owned pets', but rather as lifeforms who share their habitational niche within a mutually beneficial relationship.
 

Sinny91

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How are those dumb dogs supposed to feed them selves?

I debate the morality who ever bred pets for petting purposes anyway... Perhaps the idea was born from the notion of familiars or something.. or maybe a hunter just befriended his working dog one day...

Anyway, they exist, they need a home IMO.

Home could could in various shapes and forms however, but I believe all require human intervention at some level.

Same for all animal kingdom who have now been bred in captivity, some one needs to look after them.
 

Jennywocky

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it seems more complex, in practice and outcome, than some are suggesting.

For example, for exploratory processes: Leashing a pet isn't necessarily to enslave the pet (some of whom actually are fiercely bonded with the owners and actually follow them to other cities if lost or abandoned), it's also to prevent the animal from damaging property or hurting other human beings if living in proximity. Because dogs (specifically) can be territorial and view their humans as members of their family.

Let's let all the dogs go. What happens when dogs are released in droves to experience their newfound freedom? They gather in packs, potentially go feral, and are now a threat. Can the ecosystem support them? What happens when a segment of the ecosystem is hunted to extinction, how does it impact the rest of the ecosystem? Is the life of a dog running free in a stretched ecosystem more beneficial or less beneficial to the animal?

What about the spread of disease, insects bearing disease, etc?

And we don't just mean dogs, but any animal living in an arrangement with a human family. Birds, dogs, chickens, goats, cows. ("Run free, Bessie -- return to the wild!") The ecosystem is currently arranged in a way that changing it that dramatically would have profound impact.

These things don't address whether the animal should have been domesticated in the first place. It's hard for a cow to return to the wild and survive, since it's been shaped to mesh with human need. And maybe some of this adaptation of animals into human culture came for the purpose of utilitarian ends. Humans make tools, whether mechanical or biological -- it's what we do, just a more complex form of getting ants out of an anthill with a piece of straw.

So an INTP discussion has spiraled into a discussion of "morality." I just see people arguing different forms of morality. It depends upon one's initial assumptions as to whether the domestication of animals is moral or immoral behavior, since the world itself is really just the world with only "rules/principles" governing survival and success and no morality; and the species that are around have found adaptable behaviors that permit survival, and those that have not no longer exist or have been left behind on the evolutionary tree.

I'll be honest, my cat seems to have the better end of the deal. I support him, he gets the run of the house, and he's kind of a prick so i don't get as much out of him as he seems to get out of me. But then again, getting something back from him is better than getting nothing. So I allow myself to be enslaved daily in return for meager affection, lost in my throes of needy dependency. Maybe one day I will throw off the chains, but... not today. No, not today.
 

redbaron

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Your link describes the psychological benefits of having pets. I don't doubt those – owning a slave is probably also psychologically beneficial for the owner. Mutualism, as a symbiosis between two organisms in nature is different, as I already have mentioned, than artificially making an animal dependent on you. A prisoner in your basement will benefit from you feeding him – is that "mutualism"?

Compared to animals in the wild, pets live longer, have less diseases, have better care and security and also have warmth and comfort at their disposal whenever they so choose.

I can only assume you're referring to the, "wild" as being the, "natural" state of being for an animal. Well guess what - the natural state of homo sapiens is, "wild" as well.

Keeping a pet chained up or locked in without providing sufficient activity to satiate its natural desires is what I'd consider immoral. There's people who do that, but that's not inherent to pet ownership - it's a separate issue.

Not sure how this gets equated to imprisoning someone in a basement. That's a fucking stupid analogy.
 

Nebulous

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This is really pointless but it does bring up interesting points. Take North Korea for example, where the people there have lived inside only in their provinces and have no contact with the outside world. These people, if you interview them, consider their way of life better than the lives lived outside their country. While it's true that they've been conditioned to act and stay this way, if they say they're fine with it, is it fair that we consider their condition immoral? Is the regime evil? Or is it just sustaining a way of life?

The regime is evil.

If a child is raised in an abusive household, and they don't know that other kids do not get treated like they do, they assume it's normal. The kid is probably unhappy, but because they believe that it's just a normal part of life, they figure that they just have to go along with it.
The more isolated the child is, the more likely it is that they cannot imagine a better way of life. Say the kid really has no contact with the outside world. If interviewed, they may tell you that their life is indeed better than others', especially if their abuser tells them that.
"While it's true that they've been conditioned to act and stay this way, if they say they're fine with it, is it fair that we consider their condition immoral?"
It is not fair to say that abuse is okay just because someone one isn't aware they are being abused. They don't know any better. They have no frame of reference.

If the child gets a glimpse of the outside world, and realizes that the way they're being treated is not normal, you can bet they'd be furious. All their life, they've been putting up with abuse, thinking it was normal. It isn't fair.
 

kora

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I have the best answer.

historically the relationship between dogs and humans actually evolved more as a partnership than submission into slavery. Packs of wolves started following humans around, for hunting skills and presumably for protection. The idea is that humans initially tolerated their presence around camp sites as they were useful for alerting to danger. They also began hunting together as our group reliant styles were very similar and wolves instinctively understood hierarchies and sociable intelligent hunting tactics, the dogs would track and the humans would coordinate and kill. We found each other useful. Eventually we found out that puppies where receptive to accepting humans as social superiors if raised from a young age like they would accept an older dog. We then started selecting and raising them for particular characteristic such as tracking/scenting or gard dogs or shepherding (which is just hunting instincts without the agression). Working dogs are not slaves as the humans depend on them just as the dog depends on the human, one provides a service and actually enjoys doing it (collies are so enthusiastic about rounding stuff up) and the other provides protection and food. Packs have hierarchies and dogs do not have a problem with this hierarchy, even being bottom of the pack. Selection for companionship then occurred later on after working dogs were not so necessary and honestly, I don't see what is wrong with this, teh dog is still needed and appreciated and loved and the human has only taken the place of the alpha in the pack, it is not simply an unnatural dynamic of submission into slavery, as the dog has a good,life fulfilling most of its instincts.

However, there is an ethical problem with inbreeding of dog races simply to achieve an arbitrary set of aesthetic rules conforming to a standard for a breed instead of breeding them for intelligence or abilities because this leads to health problems and many see their lifespan shortening as the genetic pool gets more restricted.

I honestly see dogs as companions and they certainly see us that way as well. There is no Stockholm syndrome if the owner is not abusive. You are neglecting how similar they are to us and the fact that the alliance formed very naturally and consensually because of these similarities.
 

kora

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Farm animals however, are much more relevant to the analogy of slavery perhaps, but they are not pets. Apologies for all spelling mistakes I am in a train station.
 

Puffy

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I don't have much qualms about having a cat in the home tbh. She's surrounded by farm-land and is free to go out and hunt and explore all day, then is free to come back to a house in which she's warm, gets fed, and is given affectionate attention. She could leave whenever she wanted to, but doesn't as it's clearly a good deal.

In contrast the animals in the wild have a much less fun time. They have to face a cat who's permanently refreshed and stocked on energy, and hunts and murders them and their children for sport. Often not even eating their carcasses. :rolleyes:

(It's honestly the wild-life I feel more guilty for in having a cat than the cat itself.)

Essentially same with the dogs. With more limits, as if those limits weren't there they'd run out onto the main road and kill themselves.

redbaron basically nailed the discussion really. There's nothing essentially immoral about having a pet, just as there's nothing essentially immoral about having a child. If you can't provide for the animals needs, or you're abusive or unfair, then don't have a pet or have a serious hard look in the mirror at what a tosser you've become.
 

ruminator

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Compared to animals in the wild, pets live longer, have less diseases, have better care and security and also have warmth and comfort at their disposal whenever they so choose.

I can only assume you're referring to the, "wild" as being the, "natural" state of being for an animal. Well guess what - the natural state of homo sapiens is, "wild" as well.

Keeping a pet chained up or locked in without providing sufficient activity to satiate it's natural desires is what I'd consider immoral. There's people who do that, but that's not inherent to pet ownership - it's a separate issue.

Not sure how this gets equated to imprisoning someone in a basement. That's a fucking stupid analogy.

Well you are assuming that the comfort they get in our house outweighs the enjoyment they get in the wild. Maybe if they had a choice, they would be willing to forgo those comforts for a wild life. Lots of human beings feel the same way, live large or don't live at all.

Why is imprisoning someone in a basement not analogous?
 

Tannhauser

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Compared to animals in the wild, pets live longer, have less diseases, have better care and security and also have warmth and comfort at their disposal whenever they so choose.
OK, let me ask you this: where do you think for example a lion belongs: in the wild or in a cage in some zoo? After all, in the zoo, we can keep it medicated and protected from the enviorment and make it live longer.

I can only assume you're referring to the, "wild" as being the, "natural" state of being for an animal. Well guess what - the natural state of homo sapiens is, "wild" as well.
I totally agree with this. However, most people who live in a city, do it by choice. How many dogs have been asked whether they would like to spend their life in an apartment with the occasional walk now and then (on a leash)? This is one of the big problems with this whole thing: we humans have accustomed ourselves to live in civilized societies where we conform to various rules and behaviors, and then assume, without putting any critical thought into it, that we are totally justified in forcing any other animal to conform to the same rules.

Keeping a pet chained up or locked in without providing sufficient activity to satiate it's natural desires is what I'd consider immoral. There's people who do that, but that's not inherent to pet ownership - it's a separate issue.

That is like saying that if I keep a slave while giving him enough entertainment, then slavery is morally justified. I completely disagree that it is a separate issue.
 

Inquisitor

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Wow, I actually emphatically agree with Tannhauser for once. If you own a pet, then you better live in an area with lots of open space aka the countryside. I don't care how good of an owner you are, no pet deserves to spend its life trapped in an apartment or house, only being allowed outside for 20-30 min each day. There are some exceptions, as others mentioned. I used to own 3 cats. They were all outdoor cats and had great lives. They spent their days sleeping, eating and running around the forests and parks near my house. Lots of trees, lots of birds and squirrels to chase. I don't think you could do much better being born a cat in an animal hospital. If no one adopts you, well...it's lights out. You can own outdoor cats in suburbia, but obviously, you can't do this with dogs. That's why I say, it's countryside only for them.
 

redbaron

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OK, let me ask you this: where do you think for example a lion belongs: in the wild or in a cage in some zoo? After all, in the zoo, we can keep it medicated and protected from the enviorment and make it live longer.

How many people keep lions as pets? Seems like a separate issue to what's being discussed here.

Also a lot of lions in captivity have some health issue that prevents them from normal living in the wild.

I totally agree with this. However, most people who live in a city, do it by choice. How many dogs have been asked whether they would like to spend their life in an apartment with the occasional walk now and then (on a leash)? This is one of the big problems with this whole thing: we humans have accustomed ourselves to live in civilized societies where we conform to various rules and behaviors, and then assume, without putting any critical thought into it, that we are totally justified in forcing any other animal to conform to the same rules.
This is an issue with how separate owners treat pets, not pet ownership broadly.

That is like saying that if I keep a slave while giving him enough entertainment, then slavery is morally justified. I completely disagree that it is a separate issue.
Er, no it isn't and it's not even remotely similar. No I'm not spending 27 posts on all the ways they're different either.
 

Fukyo

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Equating pet ownership with slavery presupposes humans and animals are the same. Also worth of note is that pet ownership doesn't fulfill all conditions of slavery, only restricted freedom of movement. The aspect of forced, uncompensated labor is missing, as well as the aspect of denying them personal autonomy and agency (this is where it gets tricky, because of the assumption animals are exactly like humans, cognitively and psychologically. There is an argument to be had here about what sort of rights should animals be granted compared to humans. It comes down to a question of ethics. In the same vein we can say sterilizing animals is immoral too, performing pest control is immoral too, much like committing genocide with the aim to exterminate a certain race would be considered immoral too)

Note that animals used for the purposes of law enforcement, herding etc are not pets by definition.
 

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Dogs have (by extension of humans) been granted a weird spot in history where prized genetic functions are obsolete almost immediately.

Neither dogs nor humans need to hunt. Dogs still want to explore and hunt but the environment they exist in denies them this. Though the exact same can be said of the dog owner.

Animal Husbandry has not changed wolves because they've not mastered it and likely won't. Our spontaneous brain development is unique in the animal kingdom. Every other species outside of our immediate zone need those traits to survive. We and domesticated animals don't.

I doubt my dogs are happy being restricted to the yard all day but you can be certain they are happy that they have food whenever they need it, shelter whenever they need it, companionship whenever they need it, etc.

It is a weird situation but think about it like this. You may want to hunt for your own but you won't miss it. You'll never miss something like that. It is behind us as a species and behind our domesticated animals as well.

Over time we will shed the now-useless traits of our species. So will domesticated animals through selective breeding.
 

TheScornedReflex

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I like to hunt. Fuck you. What has hunting ever done against you?

Also, my dog would rip your face off for calling his species slaves. Have you not learnt things do not like to be labeled as slaves. He has a dream. You immoral fuck.

#doglivesmatter
 

JimJambones

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For domesticated animals, it would seem more immoral to not provide them with adequate care considering that they were already bred to have certain characteristics we favor, but may place them at a huge disadvantage in the wild. If we were to just let them all free, most would die. Knowing this, wouldn't it be more moral to make sure the care is tailored to the needs of the animal? How does one know what the animal wants anyways?

I think the slavery analogy only works if the animal was being used to perform hard labor under horrible conditions, which was detrimental to the overall health of the animal, as slavery is more of an economic arrangement than mere dependency. Many living things are dependent on other living things for survival. That is the interconnectedness of life in general.
 

Pyropyro

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Dogs are for eating. What is this pet thing that you speak of?
 

Brontosaurie

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Dogs are for eating. What is this pet thing that you speak of?

But dogs are so fucking cute when they make their abrasive noise a redundant number of times every single time anything good or bad happens!!! HOW ADORABLE! I LOVE TO HANG OUT WITH FUCKING DOGS MAN
 

Tannhauser

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I see that there is a recurring argument here that the morality of pet ownership depends on how well you take care of it.

But to be clear, that is a different discussion. For example, PETA seems to conflate the two issues, by talking about both the concept of freedom:

Because domesticated animals retain many of their basic instincts and drives but are not able to survive on their own in the wild, dogs, cats, or birds, whose strongest desire is to be free, must be confined to houses, yards, or cages for their own safety.
..and the quality of life of the pet in the cases where that freedom is taken away:

Millions of dogs spend their lives outdoors on heavy chains in all weather extremes or are kept locked up in tiny chain-link pens from which they can only watch the world go by. Millions more are confined to filthy wire cages in puppy mills, forced to churn out litter after litter until they wear out, at which time they are killed or dumped at the local animal shelter. Even in “good” homes, cats must relieve themselves in dirty litterboxes and often have the tips of their toes amputated through declawing. [...]
source: http://www.peta.org/about-peta/why-peta/pets/

I argue only in terms of the first one.

The only moral version of pet ownership would be one where you always allow the pet to do whatever it wants. But of course, that can never happen, because the natural drives of the animal will be at odds with what you want it to do. A pet owner should make a case for what gives him/her the authority to restrict those natural drives.
 
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The only moral version of pet ownership would be one where you always allow the pet to do whatever it wants. But of course, that can never happen, because the natural drives of the animal will be at odds with what you want it to do. A pet owner should make a case for what gives him/her the authority to restrict those natural drives.

this puts even the 'free cat' exception on shaky ground since most pet cats are prevented from fulfilling their natural desire to reproduce because most ppl don't want to end up with infinity cats and/or deal with spraying issues
 

Happy

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I like to hunt. Fuck you. What has hunting ever done against you?

Also, my dog would rip your face off for calling his species slaves. Have you not learnt things do not like to be labeled as slaves. He has a dream. You immoral fuck.

#doglivesmatter

Post of the day!
 

redbaron

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Tannhauser said:
The only moral version of pet ownership would be one where you always allow the pet to do whatever it wants. But of course, that can never happen, because the natural drives of the animal will be at odds with what you want it to do. A pet owner should make a case for what gives him/her the authority to restrict those natural drives.

Tens of thousands of unwanted cats and dogs are put down each year in Australia, because owners of animals that aren't desexed get litters that they can't find homes for/don't want/can't look after themselves. Animals get left in dumpsters or tossed into rivers because of this, or they're just left somewhere random to either be picked up by a nice passerby (if they're lucky) or maybe someone takes them to put them into a dogfighting ring or kick them around for giggles. Could be anything really.

So as an alteernative to this fate, I decided to adopt two desexed cats who would otherwise have been put down. They're now going to be living a longer, healthier life with plenty of love and warmth.

Both cats come inside and sleep in the bed every night without fail. They spend about 95% of their time in and around the house and do a large portion of their, "hunting" inside (they chase around mock snakes, mice and birds).

Translating the argument to dogs, it's not that much different. You either have a bunch of dead or unwanted dogs, or you adopt them where they get a statistically healthier, longer life. We can't make an argument for whether they're truly, "happier" but have you ever run across a wild dog? They're very aggressive and fearful things - they're not the, "happy" little pups that you seem to be making them out to be: as if they'd be so much happier if they were just left to be, "natural".

But their natural instincts aren't ones that give them happiness, they're instincts of survival. You're making an argument that we're making animals, "less happy" but making them be "less natural" but what's natural doesn't inherently have anything to do with happiness for any given species. Yet despite all the benefits to both owner and animal in the pet relationship, you've decided to blanket all pet ownership as, "immoral" based on some vaguely quantified (if even quantifiable at all) concept of not allowing them to be, "natural".

Humans trade off a little freedom for the security of walls, roofs, warm bedding and efficient plumbing. Instead of almost freezing to death on a nightly basis, roaming around and scrounging for food, fighting for our existence - we have a comparitively healthy and long-lived life.

Are houses inherently immoral too?
 

ruminator

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Tens of thousands of unwanted cats and dogs are put down each year in Australia, because owners of animals that aren't desexed get litters that they can't find homes for/don't want/can't look after themselves. Animals get left in dumpsters or tossed into rivers because of this, or they're just left somewhere random to either be picked up by a nice passerby (if they're lucky) or maybe someone takes them to put them into a dogfighting ring or kick them around for giggles. Could be anything really.

So as an alteernative to this fate, I decided to adopt two desexed cats who would otherwise have been put down. They're now going to be living a longer, healthier life with plenty of love and warmth.

Both cats come inside and sleep in the bed every night without fail. They spend about 95% of their time in and around the house and do a large portion of their, "hunting" inside (they chase around mock snakes, mice and birds).

Translating the argument to dogs, it's not that much different. You either have a bunch of dead or unwanted dogs, or you adopt them where they get a statistically healthier, longer life. We can't make an argument for whether they're truly, "happier" but have you ever run across a wild dog? They're very aggressive and fearful things - they're not the, "happy" little pups that you seem to be making them out to be: as if they'd be so much happier if they were just left to be, "natural".

But their natural instincts aren't ones that give them happiness, they're instincts of survival. You're making an argument that we're making animals, "less happy" but making them be "less natural" but what's natural doesn't inherently have anything to do with happiness for any given species. Yet despite all the benefits to both owner and animal in the pet relationship, you've decided to blanket all pet ownership as, "immoral" based on some vaguely quantified (if even quantifiable at all) concept of not allowing them to be, "natural".

Humans trade off a little freedom for the security of walls, roofs, warm bedding and efficient plumbing. Instead of almost freezing to death on a nightly basis, roaming around and scrounging for food, fighting for our existence - we have a comparitively healthy and long-lived life.

Are houses inherently immoral too?

That's nice reasoning, but two objections:

1. Who is making this choice that the trade-off is worth it? You, or the animal? Should it really be your choice to make?
2. Wouldn't your argument also apply to lions in zoos (that properly care for them)?
 

emmabobary

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Hig´s got it right :mad:

And how about entailing human thinking and emotions to everythig we come across?

...that´s inmoral :D :D :D
 

Tannhauser

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I will reply to the best answer now.

I have the best answer.

historically the relationship between dogs and humans actually evolved more as a partnership than submission into slavery. Packs of wolves started following humans around, for hunting skills and presumably for protection. The idea is that humans initially tolerated their presence around camp sites as they were useful for alerting to danger. They also began hunting together as our group reliant styles were very similar and wolves instinctively understood hierarchies and sociable intelligent hunting tactics, the dogs would track and the humans would coordinate and kill. We found each other useful. Eventually we found out that puppies where receptive to accepting humans as social superiors if raised from a young age like they would accept an older dog. We then started selecting and raising them for particular characteristic such as tracking/scenting or gard dogs or shepherding (which is just hunting instincts without the agression). Working dogs are not slaves as the humans depend on them just as the dog depends on the human, one provides a service and actually enjoys doing it (collies are so enthusiastic about rounding stuff up) and the other provides protection and food. Packs have hierarchies and dogs do not have a problem with this hierarchy, even being bottom of the pack. Selection for companionship then occurred later on after working dogs were not so necessary and honestly, I don't see what is wrong with this, teh dog is still needed and appreciated and loved and the human has only taken the place of the alpha in the pack, it is not simply an unnatural dynamic of submission into slavery, as the dog has a good,life fulfilling most of its instincts.

This narrative may certainly be a realistic one. Now, if you live as a hunter-gatherer tribe in the woods, and engage in a symbiotic coexistence with wolves, then that's great. They select you and you select them as companions. But there is striking difference between that, and going to a pet shop and selecting a dog to own. The dog has zero say in the matter.

However, there is an ethical problem with inbreeding of dog races simply to achieve an arbitrary set of aesthetic rules conforming to a standard for a breed instead of breeding them for intelligence or abilities because this leads to health problems and many see their lifespan shortening as the genetic pool gets more restricted.
That is true beyond any doubt.

I honestly see dogs as companions and they certainly see us that way as well. There is no Stockholm syndrome if the owner is not abusive. You are neglecting how similar they are to us and the fact that the alliance formed very naturally and consensually because of these similarities.
Again, my whole thesis is that the companionship is a one-sided, artificially synthesized dependency, where you make the animal dependent on you, making it seem like the animal benefits from being owned by you. I am talking about the bigger picture.
 

kora

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^ well the dog would also not have a say in the pack it was born into either... I have known dogs to run away, they do actually have the capacity to leave, my dog could have escaped thousands of times, one time she did, but came back and sat in front of our door whining, so it was her choice then. They had ingrained pack loyalty before we adopted them, it's just thatt we become the recipients for this imprinting and loyalty trait, it's not artificial, it's being the recipient of a trait that is naturally there. Dogs love their humans more than other dogs.
On another note, there is a really cool effect with "domesticated" canine species returning to self reliance within the context of cities. There are stray dogs in Moscow that get the subway, they are non aggressive towards humans.

http://abcnews.go.com/International...omplex-moscow-subway-system/story?id=10145833

I think they are not necessarily so domesticated as we think :-) if they are clever and not handicapped into having weird dwarfism or degenerate traits from inbreeding they know how to survive. My aunt's border collie basically just jumped over the garden gate for years to take himself for walks without her realizing. He does what he likes. London innit. Now he is a bit old and stiff though. I think he is 14 or something? Ripe old age. Smartest dog ever, he learns people's names and everything. Collies are fabulous. If you say "where is X" to him (x being person's name) he just stands in front of x looking from them to you like "wtf are you dumb" if you keep saying "where is x" he starts barking at you like he's saying "x is here you idiot ffs" and looking pointedly back and forth.

edit : omg Bronto said I said something cool *hyperventilates*

re edit : lol he is banned lol
 

QuickTwist

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I like to hunt. Fuck you. What has hunting ever done against you?

Also, my dog would rip your face off for calling his species slaves. Have you not learnt things do not like to be labeled as slaves. He has a dream. You immoral fuck.

#doglivesmatter

This post is brilliant.
 

Haim

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Arrogant humans, thinking they are above nature.
The immoral thing is to call pets "pets", we did not breed them to significant degree, they adopted to us, as we are part of nature, they live with us with kind of symbiosis, we are their environment that is it nothing more.There is nothing unnatural about a specie adopting to its environment, there is something unnatural about a specie thinking he is the controller of nature and not a part of it.
We human and dog's grandfathers found is useful to hunt together, the only thing that is different today is the environment.

Does us causing the environment to become what is it today is immoral?There is such a thing as immoral environment?moral environment?it all made up anyway, no such a thing as moral just a subjective thing in one human brain.
 

Grayman

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Genesis 1:26 ESV

Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

It's all right here.
 

QuickTwist

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@Grayman,

Its always so hard to argue with the bible seeing as how its God's word and all.
 

Haim

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SuperAwesomeNamePlaceholder 1:26 ESVI
Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish-stick of the sea and over the chickens of the heavens and over the steak and over all the multiverse and over every cockroach that creeps on the earth including Creepers.
also Haim is awesome all should fund his game development endeavors”
It's all right here, written by god.
 

QuickTwist

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If you are arguing with the almighty doG your heart is in in the wrong place.

Right, because the heart, as opposed to the traditional thinking of morals, are whats really important.
 

Silent Sage

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If sleeping around on my bed all day, having a steady supply of food and water, a safe shelter, toys, and an attentive owner qualifies as imprisonment, why don't you ask real convicts if that is immoral, since it's like the same thing, right? ha

Sure, I guess I ought to just throw my pets out onto the streets this winter as a sign of love.
 
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