Maintaining Relationships

[Fallenman]

Sometimes the most interesting thing for me to do before writing an essay or a thread is in trying to guess what the title of my piece should be knowing that linear paths is not something I know well when it comes to conveying my thoughts. At least to the general populace, because I know exactly how I got from nuclear warheads to the fruit fly if you only just took my path you would too .

So it has kind of been an unspoken rule of mine to stay away from making comments that would encompass INTP's in general. As much as I feel I know I am INTP I am constantly questioning it, probably another indicator that I am one. But this one I am taking from other examples. So on another thread someone was pointing out the difference between an INTJ and an INTP, where an INTJ would sacrifice body and soul to finish an project, or achieve some objective goal, outside and separate from the INTJ. The INTP on the other hand sacrifices the external world for the internal project, something that is subjective to the INTP.

I know i'm butchering this but the key note is that INTP's are incredibly subjective in the way they think, and INTJ's objective. Te versus Ti. So today I was in a class where the question was posed what stresses you in life. The people before me threw out school work and money so all the default answers were gone and I came up with the next best thing, maintaining relationships. Attempting to fit everyone in, giving them a slot. Now I just threw it out there for discussion, in reality I have plenty of time to see anyone. The issue though is that I don't want to see a lot of people, and in fact I'd rather see some people over others. The reasoning being is that it is incredibly subjective. I'm doing it for me, who do I want to see who do I think would lead to my having the best time. But I decided to pretend as if I was only stressing about finding the time.

Well they ran with it, expanded on it, one girl gave examples that depicted exactly what I meant in my head, although hadn't explicitly stated. So the teacher chimes in about a similar experience that she had, but both of them said something along the lines of they were committed towards seeing certain people for certain amount of time. I think at some point we all come to this realization, that you are committed towards spending time with people in order to maintain a relationship.

Well lets see if I stay true to my title. Basically this is what I was thinking. Ok my natural tendency is to do what makes me feel better, which is to hang out with Joe (fictional character) who has a car and can take me places (i'm currently a pedestrian), rather than Al who lives within walking distance but cannot drive and has not much to do (based on a real story). Obviously I wanna hang out with Joe more, but the point isn't who can do most for me but rather am i giving each of them their due share. The list of people I have to see goes on but there was recently a Tug-Of-War between two best friends where Al was getting upset with me because I was spending all my time with Joe. Joe, the bigger man, understood when I told him that I did need to spend a little bit of time with Al so that he wouldn't be offended and so Joe left me to my own devices. But this is where I had to come to terms with the fact that sometimes I have to realize that it isn't always about me. But at the same time it probably still is about me because I'm just trying to maintain the relationship so that Al would stop bothering me lol.

So long story short, do you have a difficulty maintaining relationships (i'll allow it to be broad family friends & acquaintances), and if so do you think its because we, more than most, fail to take value in honoring objective cultural standards, what ever you wanna call it, which dictates that we spend X amount of time with people. Is it because on any given day we're more likely to be thinking about something that pertains to ourselves more than things that pertain to other people. What say you!

 

[Adymus]

So it has kind of been an unspoken rule of mine to stay away from making comments that would encompass INTP's in general. As much as I feel I know I am INTP I am constantly questioning it, probably another indicator that I am one. But this one I am taking from other examples. So on another thread someone was pointing out the difference between an INTJ and an INTP, where an INTJ would sacrifice body and soul to finish an project, or achieve some objective goal, outside and separate from the INTJ. The INTP on the other hand sacrifices the external world for the internal project, something that is subjective to the INTP.

I know i'm butchering this but the key note is that INTP's are incredibly subjective in the way they think, and INTJ's objective. Te versus Ti.

I actually disagree with this, neither is more objective or subjective than the other.

From the start to finish of their peak cycle, an INTJ goes from Ni to Se, beginning with a subjective conceptual model and turning it into tangible and objective reality.
This is actually not very different from what an INTP does; Beginning with Ti, our personal and subjective understanding, and from their we end with Fe, articulation. This is actually an objective outcome in the same right, we begin with a purely subjective understanding, and end with expressing it in way that can be objectively understood and related to by other people. So they actually both begin with subjectivity and end with objectivity.

I know there was more to your OP, but I read the first paragraph and had to clarify that.

 

[Adymus]

So long story short, do you have a difficulty maintaining relationships (i'll allow it to be broad family friends & acquaintances), and if so do you think its because we, more than most, fail to take value in honoring objective cultural standards, what ever you wanna call it, which dictates that we spend X amount of time with people. Is it because on any given day we're more likely to be thinking about something that pertains to ourselves more than things that pertain to other people. What say you!

And now for the actual topic:

Yes I do have difficulty with maintaining relationships.

Difficulty with adhering to cultural values is part of this, but it is mainly a factor of energy. I only have so much energy to give to people, and when I do I want to make it count. This is why I am very selective of what friends I am going to keep close, and what friends I will be seeing less of. My ideal friends are the ones that stimulate me in some way, mainly intellectually, and the people that I get consistent amounts of high outputs of stimulation from I keep very close. These are the friends that I can do pretty much anything with and still really enjoy it. I am most comfortable with, and they probably know me better than any of my other friends. However, I don't have very many of these, I think there are about five people in my life right now that would fall into this category

There are also friends that I have that give me very conditional stimulation from, for instance our high energy moments are when we are doing very specific things such as making music, playing some game, etc.
These are friends that I might visit fairly regularly, but I will have a bit more of a shallow relationship, I probably won't share my deep secrets with them, and I don't really show them what goes on in my mind to the extent of my close friends. But they are still interesting people that I am still enjoying being around when doing certain activities. I actually have quite a few friends that would fall into this umbrella.

Sometimes a friend goes from close friend to conditional friend, if something in one of us changes. This actually happened after high school, I began finding myself and realized I need more in my life than just hanging out and playing video games. So the close friends that I had made in highschool became conditional friends because we actually were not very compatible, nor did we have very much in common anymore. So I pretty much only saw them from time to time when we had something in mind to do that I knew I could enjoy.

The conditional friends are also the first to get cut from my relationship catalog, especially if the condition that bound us in the first place is lost.

Edit: About the "it's not all about me." thing... You should be considerate to those your care about. But it is your life you are in charge of, not theirs, you shouldn't have to make yourself please people if you are getting nothing in return. There is nothing wrong with cutting friendships with people if that friendship no longer serves a purpose.

 

[Fallenman]

Thanks for the responses.

Its funny because you categorized your friends in much the same way I did but I broke conditional friends into acquaintances and friends, but the distinction is very blurred, and people often went from one side to the other depending on specific circumstances. Right now I've got about 4 close friends but none of the relationships are what they were at their peak. But I don't think i've really cut close friends out although I certainly understand what you mean.

About the INTP/INTJ distinction. I think what I might have meant is that INTP's take interest in only in what interests them while an INTJ can go above their interests and work on any project. What makes an INTJ able to focus in depth into a subject, but leaves an INTP simply content at understanding? But I do realize that both types have internal cognitive functions that is very subjective. But I made that paragraph off of a quote that I think you gave to someone else in another thread which was of a person saying that INTP's thinking is incredibly subjective like it was something along the lines of Ti is a very subjective thought process.

Oh were you simply pointing out that both INTJ and INTP's are subjective? Sorry I seem to be a bit scatter brained ^^.

 

[Adamastor]

F*c* I've never structured things this way.

For me friends would be what Adymus called close friends and I have a difficult even in maintaining those. In other words I didn't even bother with conditional friends, because putting the way Adymus have already put, it is in fact some shallow relationship and I dunno, I was pretty confused about the different levels of relationship, I was always to close in my own self and interacted only with those crazy ones that dared to approach me.

I am trying to chance this now, because

(...) I began finding myself and realized I need more in my life than just hanging out and playing video games.

I am in high school and that's pretty much it... I am trying to put some effort in maintaining relationships but, needless to say that I am failing miserably; I grew and developed closed in myself and this is not something that can promptly change from a day to another, what I am trying to do now is kinda of being more open minded, starting noticing the beautiful things of the outer world and in other people.

It feels like I am starting a journey to discover moments of enjoyment that are not as lonely as they were before. And I keep telling myself that this sounds promising

 

[Ermine]

I do have a bit of a problem with that. Though it can either be really difficult, or only a slight nuisance depending on who I'm dealing with. If I'm dealing with someone who expects constant interaction, I would have a hard time with that, even if I like the person a lot. It's seriously draining, and eventually just turns into one more part of my routine: call so and so and hang out. I don't like my friends/loved ones to be just a fixture in my routine. I want to genuinely value and love them. Sometimes that means we hang out all the time. Sometimes it's on very rare occasions. Just so long as we value each other and profit. I just don't want my relationships to turn into something mundane.

Though I think it's all a matter of setting reasonable expectations. For example, I limit phone calls from the start. I don't readily give out my number until it's necessary. I often don't spend much more than 5 minutes on an individual phone call. They expect me not to call, and don't expect me to use phone calls as quality time. I guess phones really drain me, so this is really important when it comes to maintaining relationships. If they don't feel deprived, then it's not a problem keeping relationships low key, even if I highly value a person.

Another thing that makes things much easier is that I don't typically have "best friends", and if I do, I limit it to one person. I don't know if this is the most healthy option, but maintaining relationships is much easier when I don't get too incredibly close to anyone. But I guess it works because most of the time, the people in my life that do have best friend status were either my sister, or my roommate. In any case, both were family. There are a lot of allowances that make a sisterly relationship much easier than a "best friend" relationship.

Another thing to consider is that my definition of friendship seems to be at a deeper level than most people's definition. There are many people who view me as their friend when I view them as acquaintances. When it's at such a level, it's very easy to maintain. All I have to to is smile and say hi.

 

[Onis]

I don't maintain relationships.

I think of it as illogical and somewhat rude (in my personal opinion, I don't think of it as general bad thing to do). If you're not into seeing me right now, and you're spending time with me just because you might need me later for something, uhh... no thank you. Come back to me later when you actually have something meaningful to say. Don't waste my time when it has nothing in it for you (although I don't mind people wasting my time if they do need specifically me - even if that's just hanging out for their enjoyment). And really, I don't mind waiting a week or two years, I'm the type of person who's around for ages and I'll just pick up from where we left last time.
So yes, I find it personally insulting, although I know it is not intended that way.

Most of my friends don't know each others, so I don't have the problem that one needs more time than the other and I don't cope too well with clingy people. I've tried to hold my temper, but eventually I just get really annoyed from being badgered daily to do things for that person, become anxious (sometimes accompanied with anxiety attacks) and end the friendship.

I'm quite strict about this, but I've attempted to learn to explain how I act think and feel when necessary.
There's been plenty that think that I'm 'stubborn' and that I should stop thinking too much and do things their way because it's the 'correct path to happiness'... but there are people who accept me as I am, and I'm extremely grateful for that, and attempt to say that to them in various ways. (although I'm often being quite clumsy about it...)

 

[Inappropriate Behavior]

How long does this maintaining need last?

Outside of family, I've maintained relationships for close to 10 years (longest). I've not seen nor spoken to any friend/girlfriend from my teen/twenties years since my teens/twenties. After high school, I left everyone 'behind'. After college, same thing. I guess I've just considered such things as transitory anyway so when time came to move on, I did. Usually with minimal problems beyond missing people for a time.

Sometimes I felt a need to get out of a relationship prematurely for various reasons. I've found the easiest way to do that is to become unreliable. That may not be the best way but one of my failings is that I too often seek the easiest path.

 

[grey matters]

Ditto for me IB

 

[Adymus]

About the INTP/INTJ distinction. I think what I might have meant is that INTP's take interest in only in what interests them while an INTJ can go above their interests and work on any project. What makes an INTJ able to focus in depth into a subject, but leaves an INTP simply content at understanding? But I do realize that both types have internal cognitive functions that is very subjective. But I made that paragraph off of a quote that I think you gave to someone else in another thread which was of a person saying that INTP's thinking is incredibly subjective like it was something along the lines of Ti is a very subjective thought process.

Oh were you simply pointing out that both INTJ and INTP's are subjective? Sorry I seem to be a bit scatter brained ^^.

Well to begin to understand this, you must first understand that the INTP and INTJ are very different creatures by a wide margin. Don't think that being one letter away makes us almost the same, the Adaptive and Directive (P and J respectively) dichotomy is by in large the biggest separator between types. The INTJ and INTP are literally not even playing the same game.

As directive types the INTJs are driven to push, to implement, to bring about their worldview. It is actually not an accurate statement to say that they don't have to be interested in something to do it. You see, they are Ni dominants, which means it is their future vision that they are interested in achieving, meaning they are willing to put forth work and effort to achieve this future outcome. What they are interested in is the result, they are driven by the fact that the final outcome is going to be something great or practical or useful, etc. If they don't believe their hard work and trouble is going to lead to anything worthwhile, they won't do it, in other words they will not have an interest in it.

Now for an INTP, we are not driven by practical application like the INTJs are, we are motivated by having a chance to expand our personal logical model, we are motivated by Ti. So we go through the cycle of begining with our model (Ti), and expanding it with new information (Ne), which turns it into a concrete worldview of facts (Si), that we can then express and relate it to other people (Fe).

The INTJs proactively drive to reach their Ni future goal, and the INTPs reactively drive to understand the world through knowledge and reflection. We are motivated by two completely different things.

 

[Cavallier]

Outside of family, I've maintained relationships for close to 10 years (longest). I've not seen nor spoken to any friend/girlfriend from my teen/twenties years since my teens/twenties. After high school, I left everyone 'behind'. After college, same thing. I guess I've just considered such things as transitory anyway so when time came to move on, I did. Usually with minimal problems beyond missing people for a time.

This...which worries me. I've discovered that other people tend to want to build their lives around me. They incorporate me into their world view and their future plans. I can't be sure I'll be there in the future and I hate to put people through pain when it is time for me to move on. I want to have meaningful relationships with people so I work on developing the relationships around me. I make good friendships and keep boyfriends around for a long time. I don't mind helping people out and if a friend needs somebody reliable I'm there. I'm not known for being flaky or unreliable. However, when it looks like I need to move on because of opportunities I do so but I feel guilty for leaving behind the relationships I've begun.

I think I travel down a path and every once in a while I make a pit-stop and chat with the people there. Then when I leave they get mad because they thought I was staying forever. Bah. Maybe I should just keep to myself.

 

[lafmeche]

I have trouble maintaining most relationships. I have a few friends that really matter, and the rest are mainly acquaintances that I'll go out to lunch with occasionally to keep them on the line.

I've found that the relationships that really mean something to me don't take any effort to maintain. I only have a handful of friends like that, but I can go months without talking to them and we just pick up where we left off. They understand that I need my 'me' time and that life can get in the way. They don't hold it against me.

I really have to stress that, if you're not getting anything out of the relationship, it's okay to let it fade or even to 'break up'. You're not required to do anything. People come and go all the time with the 'normies'. It's not necessarily a bad thing.

I think there is something to what Onis is saying, that just maintaining relationships is silly/insulting/wrong/whatever, but it's what much of the rest of society does. I think it's okay for those middle-of-the-road friends who are fun sometimes, but not worth a full commitment.

How long does this maintaining need last?

Outside of family, I've maintained relationships for close to 10 years (longest). I've not seen nor spoken to any friend/girlfriend from my teen/twenties years since my teens/twenties. After high school, I left everyone 'behind'. After college, same thing. I guess I've just considered such things as transitory anyway so when time came to move on, I did. Usually with minimal problems beyond missing people for a time.

Sometimes I felt a need to get out of a relationship prematurely for various reasons. I've found the easiest way to do that is to become unreliable. That may not be the best way but one of my failings is that I too often seek the easiest path.

I'm just shy of 27 now. I've lost touch with basically everybody from my hometown, with the exception of being Facebook friends. I only maintain a handful of friendships from college (again, except for Facebook). I occasionally miss people, but it's mostly just a flashback thing. If I did call them up, I'd get sick of them just as quickly. People grow and change. I try not to worry about it.

 

[Kellhus]

I'm just shy of 27 now. I've lost touch with basically everybody from my hometown, with the exception of being Facebook friends. I only maintain a handful of friendships from college (again, except for Facebook). I occasionally miss people, but it's mostly just a flashback thing. If I did call them up, I'd get sick of them just as quickly. People grow and change. I try not to worry about it.

Is that reallty so different from how it was before you moved?

 

[DarkGreen]

It sounds like none of you have best friends. Trust me you'll KNOW when you have one because you realize that you love them in a friendly, pure way. Do any of you have one? I'm lucky to have two friends, a sister from another mister, and a best friend.

 

[lafmeche]

Is that reallty so different from how it was before you moved?

I'm not really sure what you mean. I live less than an hour from my hometown and I'm there constantly. Moving really has nothing to do with what I'm talking about

 

[Mondorius]

Trouble maintaining relationships? I guess you could say so.

I don't actually seek relationships much. I have this "lone wanderer" attitude, you see. I don't usually call people to hang out with them or organise social events, so most of my encounters happen if I'm either invited somewhere where I think I'll enjoy myself or I happen to be doing something involving other people which I find interesting.

So I may go from close to people because we're both participating in the same thing on a regular basis to not seeing them ever again, simply because we're not both there anymore.

Sometimes I do find myself wishing I'd keep some of the more interesting people around me, but the feeling usually doesn't last too long.

So yeah, I do tend to have troubles maintaining relationships, especially since I hate phones, usually stay away from most social networking sites. Emails is pretty much the only way to reliably get a hold of me.

 

[Cavallier]

It sounds like none of you have best friends. Trust me you'll KNOW when you have one because you realize that you love them in a friendly, pure way. Do any of you have one? I'm lucky to have two friends, a sister from another mister, and a best friend.

Yes, I do. It doesn't mean I have less trouble than they when it's time to move on. I remember the relationship fondly and without regret. That doesn't mean I have a strong desire to go back to it though. I just feel guilty sometimes for how easy it is for me to leave.

 

[Methuselah]

There are the people that matter, and there are the people that don't. Why waste time on those that don't when you could be spending it with those that do.

That said, being a lone wolf is unappealing. It is an empowering thing to say when one is all alone, but having truly close friends is much more satisfying. They also help ward off nihilism and run-away abstract thinking, both of which INTPs are prone to.

 

[shadowdrums4]

I used to have a lot of trouble and I guess I still do. I don't think it's quite as bad now though.

I have some best friends that I have almost no trouble maintaining a relationship with. They know and love me and I can tell them anything. I'm protective over them to an extent, and genuinely want to know what's going on in their lives. These are people I trust, and who I give any advice/help they need. I'd say I have maybe 6 of these people in my life.

Then I have my friends from things like classes I took and stuff. People who I see/talk to on a regular basis and enjoy being around. I don't really tell them as much but I know what's going on with them and try to help them out. They are the people I talk to some on things like facebook but I come out of it knowing I might not have really said anything about my own life.

Finally I have the people who I see in school/band but never talk to anywhere else, even if I like that person, I tell them next to nothing. I know very little if any about them besides what their project was about.

As for effort in maintaining the relationships, my ex explained something to me once. "Sometimes we don't know how much you care about us even though it's obvious to you in actions you take, because you rarely actually say it, you leave people wondering if you care at all."
So in relationships I actually really want to maintain, I've made some guidelines for myself.
1. Don't let the conversation be about either person too much, if I've been telling a couple stories, I ask a few times what's happening with them. If I've listened for a while, I'll throw in a related comment/story.
2. On facebook, or irl if asked "how are you" never answer "fine, how are you?" actually say how I am before asking how they are, or when asked "What's up" "Not much" is never placed alone, even if I'm just watching TV. This at least makes it easier to open up conversation once we get passed that opening phase if that makes sense.
3. Anytime, someone does something that helped me, even if it's small, thank them and tell them I appreciate it. Most importantly, every time something happens that reminds me I care about someone, I say it. Obviously not every five minutes, it's usually on a day to day basis. This one was new to me because as my ex pointed out, I thought it was obvious and didn't need to be said.
4. Never say anything about/to the person if I don't actually believe it. This way my compliments are genuine.

Any relationship that really expects anything different from me is pretty much doomed to fail. I don't see anything wrong with leaving a relationship behind that neither person is benifiting from, and especially if that relationship is hurting you in some way.

 

[quietgirl]

I know too many people and all but two know me. They are both beautiful people and I could speak to them forever if time permitted. I would call one of them my best friend and the other I love purely. I can only deal with them in a one-on-one situation. They do not know each other.


For most people, I stay out of contact with people for months or years without meaning to. I'll think about them every day but not write or call. I don't know why I do this. I just assume that they know I care about them. People know that I'm happier doing whatever it is I'm doing. My friends maintain all of the contact in my relationships. I forget that there are other people in the world at times which is probably totally self centred. I get caught up in doing things. Plus it doesn't help that people treat my life like a soap opera. It is interesting but I don't like being on display.

I can do group dinners and holidays etc but I really prefer hanging out with just one person. Being around people all the time influences my way of thinking. I dread falling into any kind of group mentality. I also feel like a shadow around others, like I'm not really there. I mostly curl up on a chair and listen to everyone else and reply to what they are saying in great depth in my head because nobody would ever get my line of thought. I don't really know how to speak to just be agreeable. It's weird. I can only be honest so I just stay quiet most of the time.

Most of the people I know fit into so many different "groups", I could never gather them in one place for dinner or anything. People give me their contact details but when it comes down to meeting up I get shy. I only feel comfortable doing something constructive and even then I hate going through the initial small talk. Women always want to talk for the sake of talking and I don't know what to say. I've tried telling a few women what I actually think and they have run a mile. A couple didn't but I could tell that they thought I was strange. So around girls I just drink tea, smile and nod and listen and try really hard not to offer solutions. I can only do that when I can't get out of it.

Hence why it's such a relief to join this forum.

 

[Riiscup]

Quietgirl, you sound alot like me. I forget to stay in contact with people too. I don't know if it's forgetting ,as much as, I just don't stay in contact. I do care about them and think about them alot, including friends from my childhood, I just get so caught up in my world and what's going on with me that I don't call. Before I know it, weeks, months and even years have passed. I mostly sit and listen to conversations too, throwing a comment or laugh in here or there. Usually I am responding in my head, but it takes me too long to figure out how to word my comments without making them sound too disconnected, or too complex, or just weird so I never actually say much. Someone said something about stimulating people or something. I am attracted to strong personalities. Most people I prefer to hang out with have really intense personalities and are quite stimulating, I guess because I like to watch and study people.

 

[Ariel]

.... I get caught up in doing things. Plus it doesn't help that people treat my life like a soap opera. It is interesting but I don't like being on display. ....

Ditto that!! I had a weird experience very recently. I was about to go into all the details but would rather not. Bottom line, a good close friend I've known for 17 years (and yes - with large gaps at times, including a couple that lasted for a few years) has revealed herself as enjoying knowing all about what's going on with me and giving me advice and even meddling with other new friends of mine about my relationship with them. In a way that makes me realize she basically just enjoys treating my life as a soap opera, even making it more of a soap opera, and trying to have control over these aspects of my life (maybe even over most or all of my life). It was a real shock to see this play out - and very disappointing.

For what it is worth she is ENTJ. She's almost near the middle line on the F vs. T spectrum, but does test out as ENTJ and overall that type description fits her pretty well. I looked up ENTJ at www.personalitypage.com and read the section for that type, regarding personal growth/development. It sounded right on point to me and I debated sending it to her but decided she's too emotionally vulnerable right now and would take it the wrong way.

My inclination is to keep her as a friend but she is demoted from being my "best friend" and my eyes are opened to the fact that she has emotional trouble and lack of personal growth and emotional development that's making things difficult for herself and those around her. Sad.

But I've got too much on my own plate to try "fixing her" so all that I did was tell her to back off in the areas where I needed her to back off. And I'm avoiding "feeding her" all the information she wants to have in order to give me all the "advice" she thinks that I "need". Blecchhh