Keirsey's NT Self-Image; Self-Esteem, Self-Respect, and Self-Confidence

[Sapphire Harp]

A lot of the time, many of our threads are dealing with fears, insecurities, lack of self-confidence and the like... so I thought I would draw on a section of 'Please Understand Me II' by David Keirsey and see if we can't get another angle on this.

The attached Pdf file is three pages concerning the self-image of Rationals (-NT-s). The basic idea contends that a person's self image has three different facets. The manifestations are charted as:

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I definitely recommend reading the attachment first, but do you agree with this analysis? Does this capture the essence of what gives INTPs their self-worth?

It's an approximate fit for me... the ingenuity, in particular, seems like an awkward match. The suggestion that NT self-respect derives from autonomy makes a lot of sense to me, personally... Long have I struggled to eliminate dependencies from my life, and I continue it now as I eliminate my student loans with concentrated effort...

But I think the self-confidence section is the most interesting to me. According to Keirsey, NT's self-confidence derives from their resolve...

Once Rationals resolve to do something they have, in a sense, made a contract with themselves, a contract they dare not go back on. Indeed, their worst fear is their determination might weaken, their resolve might falter, and that they will fail in their resolve.

Why is this? Why are NTs so fearful of their will power weakening? It is because they can never take will power for granted, however strong it has proved itself in the past. They know, perhaps better than others, that they are not in charge of their will, but that their will is in charge of them. Einstein was fond of quoting Schopenhauer's words: "Man can do what he wants, but he cannot will what he wills."

Rationals know, for instance, that they cannot will themselves to control involuntary functions, such as speech, sexual desire, digestion, warding off infection, and so on. After all, the involuntary is by definition not subject to the will, but must occur spontaneously.
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It's fascinating that resolve and willpower are focused around remaining in control... and yet there are so many things fundamentally beyond our control... Particularly emotions - which is something which thwart and frustrate us INTPs so often... The source of our self-confidence is continuously challenged by our own nature?

Indeed, there's a notion from somewhere in eastern philosophy that all suffering comes from needing and attempting to maintain control over things... (and ourselves...?)

So, is this to say that the rise of self-confidence in an INTP is intimately tied with negotiating a compromise between those things in our lives which can be controlled and those things that cannot?
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[eudemonia]

Interesting Sapphire. Just a quick response (whilst cooking lunch).

Firstly I am not sure I understand his differentiation between self esteem and self respect.

Secondly, I'm afraid I don't identify with this model. I can see some elements of myself in this but more when I was younger. For example, when I was younger I was highly dependent upon being seen to be competent (which strangely, Keirsey refers to as ingenuity - a word I would never apply to myself).

I don't identify at all with the 'resolve' argument.

I strongly identify with the argument regarding autonomy of thought and rule breaking. But I do not rest my self respect or self esteem on this.

For me there are two sources of self esteem - one is inside society and the other is out of society. Out of society I try to rest my self esteem in the knowledge that I am unique, I have my own path to walk and that path is somehow infused in some mysterious way, with a spiritual purpose. As far as this spiritual purpose is concerned, other people, their opinions, their comparisons, matter not a jot. Whether they see me as competent or not, successful or not, popular or not is irrelevant. It is a liberating way to be.

However, we all have to act inside society. I find that however free I aspire to become I AM affected by society. I feel good about myself when I am able to help others through my ideas and when people rate my ideas and appreciate my help. I feel confident when I am surrounded by people who share my values around knowledge, freedom of thought, rejection of dominant orthodoxies and the hegemony of the media.

 

[JoeJoe]

I think this would be why so many INTPs are unconfident. We make a contract with ourselves, but because we are so unorganized and procrastinative we fail again and again to fulfill our promises, lose our confidence in our willpower (!), which only makes it worse, and we already have a vicious circle.

I notice that I often feel cheated, when I have planned to do something and because I have postponed it so often someone else does it for me.

 

[Jordan~]

Re: Self-confidence. I'm not so sure that it's a matter of loving control. I'd say it's more to do with hating imposition. Stubbornness is a common INTP trait, particularly in the sense that we're always reluctant to do what someone tells us to do. I know I've changed my opinion on a certain course of action entirely because someone told me to carry it out: even if I wanted to do it in the first place, them telling me to do it puts me off it completely. Perhaps the situation is the same with willing. Do we not like the idea that these uncontrollable aspects of our nature can tell us what to do? There is, in the INTP, that sense of separation of different parts of the mind - there's "us", there's the emotions, and there's reason. It's almost the id, ego, superego model - emotions being the id, "us" being the ego and reason being the superego. I'd say that our fear of losing resolve comes from our fear of being told what to do; in this case by our emotions, that aspect of ourselves that we can't control, that seems like another person inhabiting our mind. The resolve and the autonomy are the same thing, I think.

 

[snowqueen]

I haven't time to respond this properly so I will return to it later, but I just wanted to say that I derive huge amounts of self-esteem from my ingenuity which is something i have in abundance. I definitely value being autonomous and think that is where I get my self-confidence from, but I agree with JoeJoe that my self-respect is often damaged by not being able to follow through things I resolve to do because of the damned INTP procrastination! I hate myself when that happens. So doesn't quite fit the Kiersey model. Of course resolve is something INTJs do manage to work with - they are like magicians, what they will appears - they can manifest. It seems like magic, but really it;s the willingness to work hard to make something work in the real world. I envy them that, but not their rigidity.

I will read the whole article later - thanks for posting it Sapph

 

[Sapphire Harp]

I think Eudemonia has a very good point in that esteem, respect, and confidence are really similar and Keirsey doesn't have a more pronounced definition available that I can find, so someone needs to split these hairs...

I was also thinking about including the Values chart from Keirsey's book, since it kind of relates to this topic... However, the aspects noted in this chart seem more like manifestations of self-image and motivations, rather than the causes of them, so...
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Eudemonia, I wouldn't be surprised if you somewhat drew on the NF words Empathic and Authentic? I feel the SP words Artistic and Adaptable, as well as the SJ word Dependable call to me. It seems quite easy to attach importance to other modes of appreciating yourself, as you encounter them in life... Indeed, I wouldn't be surprised if 'Pure NT Types' were very rare, even on this forum.
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I strongly identify with the argument regarding autonomy of thought and rule breaking. But I do not rest my self respect or self esteem on this.

Are you sure? When you were describing your basis of self-esteem outside society, to me it sounded just like this bit from the included Keirsey:

Rationals desire to live according to their own laws, to see the world by their own lights, and they respect themselves in the degree that they act independently, free of all coercion.
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Stubbornness is a common INTP trait, particularly in the sense that we're always reluctant to do what someone tells us to do. I know I've changed my opinion on a certain course of action entirely because someone told me to carry it out: even if I wanted to do it in the first place, them telling me to do it puts me off it completely.

It's definitely part of the autonomy... If someone tells you what to do, and you carry it out... even if you were planning to anyway, you've lost something of your independence to them - it's almost like a victimization, really. I remember I had feud nearly a decade long with my mother about losing weight - something I wanted to do, but which I was being told to do... After time and college separated us most of the time, I was feeling much freer to establish my own path, and proceeded to do what I originally wanted... (It's a bit of a sad story, really.)
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There is, in the INTP, that sense of separation of different parts of the mind - there's "us", there's the emotions, and there's reason. It's almost the id, ego, superego model - emotions being the id, "us" being the ego and reason being the superego. I'd say that our fear of losing resolve comes from our fear of being told what to do; in this case by our emotions...

I don't have the mental imagery of separation that you're using here, Jordan... When I feel subconscious emotions coming on, I feel like I'm seeing the straight line ahead of me twist into a curve, but I don't feel like I'm being acted on by something... and reason seems like techniques I can perform - like dance movements and gestures, but definitely not separate.

I'd be very curious how everyone else is imagining the relation of their minds, emotions, and reason since Jordan and I are doing it very differently...
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I agree with JoeJoe that my self-respect is often damaged by not being able to follow through things I resolve to do because of the damned INTP procrastination! I hate myself when that happens. So doesn't quite fit the Kiersey model.

Actually, I think it still looks like a very good fit... just because we INTPs usually have habits which give them constant failure in carrying things through, that doesn't mean we still won't base our value on it! If there's anything that rachets up my stress level, it's trying to meet an obligation when there's doubt about whether I can do it or not... It was particularly bad in school... and judging by the amount of concern over procrastination I've seen posted, I think that's another validation of this...

To me, the bigger question is, why on earth are we basing part of our value on something we're inherently so bad at? Does that make any sense to anyone?
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I think this would be why so many INTPs are unconfident. We make a contract with ourselves, but because we are so unorganized and procrastinative we fail again and again to fulfill our promises, lose our confidence in our willpower (!), which only makes it worse, and we already have a vicious circle.

So that really resonates for you, JoeJoe? This discussion is a bit dry so far... could I talk you into posting a time or a way this really manifested for you?
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[JoeJoe]

To me, the bigger question is, why on earth are we basing part of our value on something we're inherently so bad at? Does that make any sense to anyone?
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Perhaps because we are always seeking challenges? But doesn't really make sense.


EDIT: Maybe it's some kind of natural precaution of nature, so that we don't lose our heads in the clouds. Every person needs something he's not good at, so that we can relate to other people. Everybody has to be more or less equal in order to function efficiently in a society. Someone who is good at absolutely everything will soon turn arrogant. And then he will be rejected by society.

So that really resonates for you, JoeJoe? This discussion is a bit dry so far... could I talk you into posting a time or a way this really manifested for you?
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At least I find that the longer I procrastinate, the more doubts I have if I will ever achieve my goal. I think this also effects other plans. When there's something important to do, I already think I'm probably gonna fail anyways. Only the hope, that this time my willpower will be stronger is actually keeping me going.

 

[Jordan~]

I'd be very curious how everyone else is imagining the relation of their minds, emotions, and reason since Jordan and I are doing it very differently.

Funny, I'm sure I read somewhere that that was common in INTPs. Feeling like the rational self and the emotional self were separate entities, I mean.

 

[Agent Intellect]

that seems to be a pretty accurate description for myself. i know i've always defined myself by being creative, and doing it by myself. i think one of the many reasons i didn't go to college after high school is i almost felt that it was a sign of weakness, that i could acquire knowledge and become smart by myself, on my own time. attaining knowledge from an education felt like it would just make me another brick in the wall, that if i could stand out on my own, it would make me all that much stronger.

the resolve thing hits the nail on the head, too. i've always thought that i could more or less will myself into anything. when i was younger, i was heavier, and i was able to will myself to lose weight. i've always had substance abuse problems, and i've always tried to will myself off of it, by myself of course. i've never saught help at all for depression, because i've always figured i could just will it and rationalize it away. the point is, i've always thought any of my weak points i could just "get over it" through strength of will.

i think that the idea of things being out of my control is a big fear of mine, which is one of the reasons i think i can be very antisocial (and even misanthropic). other humans are one of the biggest aspects of life that are out of our control. a lot of discomfort and anxiety about society comes from the unexpected and uncontrollable nature of other people. just by being in their company, we relinquish much of our independance; we can no longer be ourselves. having to treat other people humanely means we have to change our own behavior, because we can't treat them as meer objects.

one way in which i attempt to controll the uncontrollables of reality is by gaining understanding. by reaching some sort of understanding about how reality works, i get the feeling that i can exert some sort of control over it, because i know whats going on. i think this is one of the things that makes me want to learn about many topics having to do with physics, biology, the brain and philosophy: i want to know how it all works, so i don't feel so powerless, simply being victim to the whims of unseen and unknowable forces.

i guess the main message i get from this is that my attitude is: "i want to get good at the things i want, and i want to do it independantly" which is very accurate for me.

 

[Ermine]

I'm with Agent Intellect. That entire excerpt fits me to a T. And for the whole college thing, my control will be compromised, but I'm going mainly because I'll be more independent of my parents, I'll get a little piece of paper that will allow me to get the job I want, and I have much more access to learning than I usually would.

It's one of my main paradoxes that I have serious control issues, yet I'm a strong P and am disposed to procrastinating and taking things as they come. This desire for control infiltrates so many parts of my being. For example, there's no way you could make me even consider recreational drugs. Why? Control issues. I'm scared of the idea of falling in love. Why? Control issues again. Even if I were to try something that would take away my control, I have to know what's going to happen and when. Ridiculous request, but it's what I'd need to feel secure.

Also, I found the last paragraph interesting.

And speech is a special problem for the Rationals, who are the most likely of all the
types to develop gestural tics when they try to take control of their speech. Though it tends to impair their performance, strength of resolve is of such extreme importance to Rationals that, under stress, they have no choice but to invoke their will and try harder.

This actually is a big problem for me. Unless I really get into the zone and forget about myself, I'm always stumbling over my words and developing new gestural tics. Why? Because I want to find the exact word for what I want to articulate, and I want to have control of what I'm saying and how I say it.

 

[zephryi]

I just looked up self-esteem and got: confidence in one's own worth or abilities; self-respect. That isn't very helpful. -____- However, to take a try at splitting those hairs...

Self-esteem seems to me as a sort of base indicator in how you feel about yourself; while the other two tend to be either a positive value or negative value (You have confidence, respect, or not), you can have low self-esteem or high self esteem- it's a scale.

For self respect, going with respect as a "deep admiration for someone's accomplishments", I guess this would be how you feel in regards to your actual actions, rather than your self as a whole.

For self-confidence, this seems to imply the actual taking of action. After all, you have the confidence to do something, not the esteem or respect to do something.

Looking at the actual words... Ingenious and autonomous seem like they can be flipped easily as both can be seen on a sliding scale like with self-esteem, but accomplishments can be described as either or as well. With the other words, such as artistic and audacious, dependable and beneficent, empathetic and benevolent, though, the split seems to work better. You wouldn't describe actions as any of the former words; they are words to describe people as a whole. The latter words describe actions and or people in the case of audacious and benevolent, but easily make sense as describing how an action should be for the person to respect their efforts.

For self confidence, the lines get kinda blurry again, though. You can say that NTs need to be convinced of their resolution to take action, SPs of their ability to adapt, SJs the respectability of their path, and idealists the authenticity of self in their actions, but you can also say someone is resolute, someone is respectable, adaptive, authentic. Actions can be respectable, as well. So I'm not sure how exactly to work this puzzle out.

What I'm hoping is that someone else will come along and continue untangling this linguistic knot. XD (Or find a way to contact Keirsey directly somehow? That'd be interesting, but a quick survey of his homepage only revealed information for contacting...someone... directly about the test itself. >>)
--

Anyways, all in all, I find the description fits rather well, except with ingenuity. While I take pride in ingenuity, another equally satisfying source of pride is on the knowledge bases I've built. So while I may feel pride at outmaneuvering a friend in chess, I'd also feel a pride in a knowledge of strategies I may or may not use. As for autonomy, the main reason I want to go to college is not so I can go party, etc without worrying about parental supervision, but so that I am in charge of all monetary decisions, time management, even cleaning. The appeal in going away to college lies in the independence I will have to have or muster up. For 'resolute,' I find that I have the same procrastination issues as many people have already described, and that it is a blow to my self confidence when I can't carry out my plans due to that, and a great joy when I can will myself into completing a difficult task.

Eeeeh, I type too much. Sorry. ^^;

 

[Agent Intellect]

just as a side note, are their pdf's like this for the other three types? if so, i'd be interested in reading those, too.

 

[Razare]

A lot of you are talking about procrastination and honestly, it hasn't been much of an issue for me. I definitely have it like the plague, but over the last few years I've accepted it as me rather than letting it get to me. This has allowed me to develop the attitude that it's alright to procrastinate and that I should plan for it.

So instead of worrying when I'm going to start an assignment, I basically know in my head that I am going to start at the last possible minute. If I'm going to start at the last possible minute, what do I need to do in advance? If I'm going to do an all-nighter, then I make sure to get extra sleep the night before. When I do eventually begin the task, I calmly focus on that task as if I am playing a sport or working really hard. I am in the zone, focused completely on the activity as if nothing else exists.

I also always get an approximate time estimate of how long the assignment will take. The only hiccup in this strategy is some assignments require 20+ hours of work, and those cannot be accomplished in one sitting.

The only danger I have found with procrastinating is that once in a blue-moon something goes awry and utterly prevents you from completing the task.

 

[snowqueen]

I still haven't had time to read the article though I fully intend to! Sapph I only said it wasn't quite the same as Keirsey because in the table because self-respect went with autonomy while self-confidence, with resolve while I experienced them reversed but otherwise it's the same as what you were saying.

Here are how I see the difference between the words:

Self-esteem - the regard in which you hold yourself in relation to others - or at least some sense of comparison with others.
Self-respect - the level of feeling good about yourself - purely personal against one's own values and principles.
Self-confidence - the degree to which one feels that one can do things - skills, getting the job done - for INTPs this also includes thinking functions of course! I know I can analyse and produce models for example - I have confidence in my thinking processes.

I think paradoxically I have a high degree of self-confidence in my ability, I know I can do them, but because my procrastination sabotages me, I end up violating my principles so lose self-respect. I think for other types, it's the doing that gives confidence and being able to do it by oneself (autonomy) gives self-respect.

Ingenuity - the ability to engage in creative problem-solving - being able to come up with creative solutions for gnarly problems.

Autonomy - self-determination and self-direction. Accountable to oneself.

Resolve - the ability to plan, make decisions and carry things through.

I think those three are quite different from each other.

Edit: I just looked at the second table and see that Rationals 'yearning' is for achievement! So INTJs yearn for it and do it, while we just yearn for it lol

@Razare - Yes I think that's also what I do nowadays - spend a long time thinking, reading, making notes and then put aside time to do it at the last possible time. Also I pair up with other people to work with who are more organised and get them to give me deadlines - this has saved me at work many times.

 

[JoeJoe]

OK guys, today was a really interesting day for me considering resolve and confidence.

Sooooo....
First of all, I ordered my ID card wich is 9 months overdue already (Had to pay 14€ because I already need it next week).
On the way home, I felt really good, so I went to a guy who I thought might have my bike, because I left it standing on his property right next to the road (no fence and such) and it was gone after a weekend . The bike disappeared around the 20th of May.









2008.

So I went to that guy, but only the wife was there and she didn't know anything about it but she said they would call. After this I felt GREAT.
Powerful? Maybe.
Confident? Yes.
Happy? ABSOFUCKINGLUTELY!!

I think I haven't felt that way for several months now.


And then I had Cello lessons. And I hadn't practised the whole week. Even though I promised it to my teacher and had honestly planned it.

After my lesson I just felt "normal" again.
But I'm pretty sure, that if I would finish my plans more often that GREAT feeling would be more permanent.

I suspect, that many people here underestimate how good you can actually feel.


PS: The guy didn't have my bike after all.

 

[Toad]

I find it incredible that psychologists know me so well before even meeting me. The article fits me to the tee.

Hey Cryss, doesn't the revenge part sound like me? LoL

So Melkor, you still consider my "Independence Theory" to be untrue? Now bow down to me and accept my theories as truth you insignificant fool! Muahhahah

Well speaking for myself, this article is 100% correct. Thank you so much for posting it Sapphire.

 

[Sapphire Harp]

The resolve thing hits the nail on the head, too. i've always thought that i could more or less will myself into anything. when i was younger, i was heavier, and i was able to will myself to lose weight. i've always had substance abuse problems, and i've always tried to will myself off of it, by myself of course. i've never saught help at all for depression, because i've always figured i could just will it and rationalize it away. the point is, i've always thought any of my weak points i could just "get over it" through strength of will.

I can sympathize with everything you've said here, AI... I was just thinking how strange it is that we can feel like we have incredible willpower, but bringing it to bear on a subject is another matter entirely. It's definitely referencing that Schopenhauer quote: "Man can do what he wants, but he cannot will what he wills..."

In threads on procrastination, I remember talking about strategies to seduce yourself into working on something... tricks to slip past the difficulty of awaking and focusing that will... I remember times when my willpower doesn't seem to obey me, ironically enough.

The control you mention reminds me of a blurb given out by the 'Actual Me' test a long time ago, since the profile I scored was 'Ultimate Planner'... (Post here.) Part of that profile was:
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Yours is a life of checks and balances to the smallest decimal place. No detail is overlooked. You only take precise steps that are planned out well in advance. Thinking and logic are supreme. Knowledge is the foundation. Everything is a chess match at the Masters level! Usually you're not a risk taker. It doesn't mean that you're not adventurous. It means that before you take the first step, every possible move and option that can be controlled has been thought through thoroughly. You only like to deal with probabilities in your favor at 99.44 percent. Joy for you is minimizing luck.
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It clearly reminds me of how I played civilization... I would look at the combat odds... see something like 86% chance of my winning a fight and think it was too risky, so I would hold off for a better chance... Unfortunately, it leads to a very slow, rigid, and defensive style of playing... And the same applies to living my life as well...
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But I'm pretty sure, that if I would finish my plans more often that GREAT feeling would be more permanent. I suspect, that many people here underestimate how good you can actually feel.

Oh, yea...! I forgot about that - on the days I feel like accomplishing stuff ("kicking ass", per se...), I usually get a really big high, too... But it never lasts and I can never keep it going. What's the deal with that? Is the energy expenditure too high? Is it too unfamiliar? It seems like no-one posting in this forum can sustain it for some reason...

It honestly reminds me of the Buddhist enlightenment metaphor... where reaching enlightenment is like suddenly seeing the sun peak through the clouds. It was always there, but there's just too much crap in the way... and then, afterwards, the clouds drift back in and we go back to living in the shady mire we normally exist in...?
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Funny, I'm sure I read somewhere that that was common in INTPs. Feeling like the rational self and the emotional self were separate entities, I mean.

Aye, it might very well be, but some time back I realized I'm definitely not the INTP poster child... and I mostly stopped making assumptions about what INTP is and what INTP is not...
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just as a side note, are their pdf's like this for the other three types? if so, i'd be interested in reading those, too.

Well... this one only exists because I typed it out of the book... Starting to include many sections of Keirsey's book on our forum would get kind of sketchy, so I don't plan on adding more. Sorry.
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(Or find a way to contact Keirsey directly somehow? That'd be interesting, but a quick survey of his homepage only revealed information for contacting...someone... directly about the test itself. >>)

I find Keirsey's site a bit disappointing since it's so focused on corporate consulting... And in that it would like to charge for the testing it offers. Since it seems so materialistic, I tend to think we can draw upon his texts, but after that we have to move on. Besides, Keirsey is almost 87 years old now, so he's probably got a lot else to occupy him.

~~~~~~~~~~
P.S. My 400th post.
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[motrhead]

That seems to fit me quite accurately as well.

Out of society I try to rest my self esteem in the knowledge that I am unique, I have my own path to walk and that path is somehow infused in some mysterious way, with a spiritual purpose. As far as this spiritual purpose is concerned, other people, their opinions, their comparisons, matter not a jot. Whether they see me as competent or not, successful or not, popular or not is irrelevant. It is a liberating way to be.

I feel somewhat this way, in that I have (after many years of poor self image, and yearning to fit in with mainstream society) chosen to be different, or maybe more correctly, accepted that I am different. I grew my hair and "dropped out", identifying with a much younger mindset (or older, take your pick); not that I really need to fit in any more. I grew up around older hippies, and may have subconsciously (and to some extent, consciously) identified with their attitudes and ideas, but I also identify with the younger rebellious culture; the protesters, and "new generation hippies". I spent years being *painfully* self conscious, awkward in my own skin, aware of every movement, controlling my gait, tripping over words...
I finally learned how to relax and let go. No one was really watching or judging me, and even if they were for a moment, it didn't matter. I don't have to be perfect. Sadly this realisation didn't happen until I was engaged to be married...

. I know I've changed my opinion on a certain course of action entirely because someone told me to carry it out: even if I wanted to do it in the first place, them telling me to do it puts me off it completely. Perhaps the situation is the same with willing.

This I can identify with. I have always had this problem at work. I want my ingenuity, skill, work ethic and independence to be respected. I am good at holding my tongue, but I boil inside being treated like what I perceive as "an idiot". I am a professional, and know what I am doing; usually more so than my employer. This situation can only go on for so long before I develop a serious distaste for the work, lose my will to be there or even function, and have to leave. I have learned to cope, but eventually I have to change jobs (3-1/2 years is as long as I have managed working for someone else, but I am great on my own). I am much happier working for myself. It is okay to suggest something to me, but do not "tell" me. This doesn't mean I don't follow direction well. It's more of an attitude problem, with regard to how I am being respected for my knowledge and skill...if that makes sense? I am the model employee, always the hardest working and most productive, although I do daydream and lose my focus during mindless repetitive tasks. At some point I will stop in the middle of what I am doing, question what I am doing there, and either convince myself it is worth continuing, or pack it in.

.... I derive huge amounts of self-esteem from my ingenuity which is something i have in abundance. I definitely value being autonomous and think that is where I get my self-confidence from, but I agree with JoeJoe that my self-respect is often damaged by not being able to follow through things I resolve to do because of the damned INTP procrastination! I hate myself when that happens.

This describes me as well. I cannot resist a challenge. I can always find an answer, and I will not stop trying until I do (or some outside force intervenes). I have trouble finishing simple chores due to procrastination, yet I will often stubbornly finish what I *do* start in one sustained effort. (Twenty hours a day for six days straight to build one mechanical creation.)

It's definitely part of the autonomy... If someone tells you what to do, and you carry it out... even if you were planning to anyway, you've lost something of your independence to them - it's almost like a victimization, really....

Absolutely. I feel robbed of my ingenuity and autonomy.

... i've always defined myself by being creative, and doing it by myself. i think one of the many reasons i didn't go to college after high school is i almost felt that it was a sign of weakness, that i could acquire knowledge and become smart by myself, on my own time. ...
i think that the idea of things being out of my control is a big fear of mine, which is one of the reasons i think i can be very antisocial (and even misanthropic). other humans are one of the biggest aspects of life that are out of our control. ... just by being in their company, we relinquish much of our independance; we can no longer be ourselves. ..
... my attitude is: "i want to get good at the things i want, and i want to do it independantly" which is very accurate for me.

Yes. I want to do everything myself. I don't like store bought generic solutions. I want perfect solutions that I can engineer myself. I can learn just as much as the so-called experts, so why should I accept their so-called authority? I really dislike authority, which extends to social norms and "respect". I am good at common decency and courtesy, but respect has to be earned. This relates to my dislike of "the cult of personality". I may start a thread on that subject.

... Unless I really get into the zone and forget about myself, I'm always stumbling over my words and developing new gestural tics. Why? Because I want to find the exact word for what I want to articulate, and I want to have control of what I'm saying and how I say it.

This sounds exactly like me. Which is why I prefer a forum where I can consider each word I type, and go back and proof-read and correct before I hit send. My brain is always so far ahead of my mouth, I get lost, or can't fit the perfect word. It's like I don't assign enough of my brainpower to speech. I'm too busy thinking. For some reason, a couple of beers helps.

 

[JoeJoe]

Re: Self-confidence. I'm not so sure that it's a matter of loving control. I'd say it's more to do with hating imposition. Stubbornness is a common INTP trait, particularly in the sense that we're always reluctant to do what someone tells us to do. I know I've changed my opinion on a certain course of action entirely because someone told me to carry it out: even if I wanted to do it in the first place, them telling me to do it puts me off it completely. Perhaps the situation is the same with willing. Do we not like the idea that these uncontrollable aspects of our nature can tell us what to do? There is, in the INTP, that sense of separation of different parts of the mind - there's "us", there's the emotions, and there's reason. It's almost the id, ego, superego model - emotions being the id, "us" being the ego and reason being the superego. I'd say that our fear of losing resolve comes from our fear of being told what to do; in this case by our emotions, that aspect of ourselves that we can't control, that seems like another person inhabiting our mind. The resolve and the autonomy are the same thing, I think.

I think Jordan hit the nail on the head there. My mother (ENFJ) often asks me to do something in the house (e.g tidy up room, clean up in the kitchen etc.). I think OK, fine, I'll do it, and that's what I say. But I also think, don't tell me when I have to do it. So of course I usually don't feel like it and then my mother COMMANDS me to do it. From that point on I really want to do it less and less. It usually ends in me finally getting over myself after endless nagging or my mom threatens to "tidy up" my room (i.e. throws away everything that's lying around on the floor) for example.
What really gets on my nerves, is when she asks me to do something, I don't really say yes, and then later she says:"Hey, we agreed on that you will do [blabla]."

My father (INTJ) is a bit more clever concerning these things (but he doesn't live with us anymore, so that might also be a factor). If it's something I have a bit more time for, he asks me if I would like to do it (I'm usually happy when my room is tidy) and then he says:"OK, when will you have it done?", and I can make my own "contract" and everything. Then, when the time is up, he asks me if I did what I "promised". Usually I didn't and then he asks me why, and we make a new "contract". If it takes especially long, until I get something finished, he will try to find the source of the problem . The good thing about this whole method is, that I feel worse about myself, if I don't do what I promised to do, ergo there's no one to put the blame on and to get angry at. Also, he barely raises the pressure over time, which is just right for me/us.
If it's more urgent he would say something along the lines of:"Hey, come on, we should unload the dishwasher." The responsibility remains on my side and there is no pressure.

 

[Felan]

Self-esteem is based on success. If you are successfully ingenious then you are pleased with it. If there is a flaw in the creation then you are critical of it.

Self-respect is largely independent of success. Autonomy is something that is tended to be viewed positively and valued by Rationals.

You might say something was a ingenious idea! You wouldn't likely say something was an autonomous idea! Conversely there would be less clarity in saying you live ingeniousily than saying you live independently.

So I guess in short:
Esteem is doing.
Respect is being.

 

[Toad]

Keirsey is an INTP. I wonder if he has ever strolled around in here.

 

[eudemonia]

OK, off topic (sorry)

I grew my hair and "dropped out"

You're a MAN! I thought you were a woman and was waiting for you to say something on the mothers and daughter's thread

 

[motrhead]

Heehee. I am a loving father, but I suspected you thought I was a mother. That's okay. I have had to be both for my kids at times in their lives. I actually had to look after our first newborn myself for months, while my wife was in the hospital. I was sort of feeling left out by that mothers and daughters thread
I grew up in a strict disciplinary household, and my wife's family was even worse (with violence), so our children have been carefully shielded from anything like that. We have done everything we can to allow them to be happy, well adjusted, and independent individuals. Sometimes even that isn't enough, but that is all we can do. The rest is up to them.

 

[Reverse Transcriptase]

Saphhire, I have a request! Could you upload the Self-Image section for NF (Idealists)? Given our love of NFs I think we could all find it useful... at least at the moment I need it. Fricken INFPs.

In return, I'll finish reading the posts and reply. (jk! I was going to do that anyway...)

 

[Sapphire Harp]

Arright... you've got me, Mr. Jones... NF information is attached for those who wish to examine and contrast. Idealist NF self-image being based around Empathy, Benevolence, and Authenticity...

​

​

I had read it before, but it's actually a far more interesting now that I've gone through it in depth (from typing it) and from debating out the NT supposition. If accurate, the NFs seem to have an equally insurmountable internal struggle with their self-confidence...

The problem for Idealists is that this ardent wish to be genuine at all times and everywhere actually separates them from the authenticity they demand of themselves, and forces them, to a certain extent, into the very role-playing they want to avoid. NFs report over and over that they are subject to an inner voice which urges them to "be real, be authentic"- always in the NF is that voice reminding them about being whole, unified, and true.

But with this other voice in their head, Idealists are inevitably caught in a dual role. Instead of the whole-hearted, authentic person they want to be, they are at once director and actor: they are on stage, and, at the same time, they are watching themselves being on stage, and prompting themselves with lines. The irony of wanting to be authentically themselves it often leaves Idealists feeling divided and false, standing to one side an telling themselves to be themselves.
​

I finally learned how to relax and let go. No one was really watching or judging me, and even if they were for a moment, it didn't matter. I don't have to be perfect. Sadly this realisation didn't happen until I was engaged to be married...

Motrhead... do you see coincidence here, or some correlation/causation?
​

I am good at holding my tongue, but I boil inside being treated like what I perceive as "an idiot". I am a professional, and know what I am doing; usually more so than my employer....

It is okay to suggest something to me, but do not "tell" me. This doesn't mean I don't follow direction well. It's more of an attitude problem, with regard to how I am being respected for my knowledge and skill...if that makes sense? I am the model employee, always the hardest working and most productive, although I do daydream and lose my focus during mindless repetitive tasks.

I definitely feel your frustrations here, Motrhead... At work, I feel like one of the most effective, autonomous individuals there... And any time I lose to defocusing, or evaluating what I'm doing is usually made up for by the fact that it's very rare I stop to gab with everyone else... (Sometimes I wonder if everyone else in the place spends an hour or two each day just chatting...)

Even so, I often feel condescended to and unrecognized for it... I occasionally wonder if it's a superiority / control thing coming out of the management. Recognizing there's been a lot of good work would necessitate some kind of recompense... Or a more respectful approach towards me...

Of course, I work under an ISTJ boss, so... being the lowest position in the department, by policy my work will be the lowest quality? Or, it's just an exercise in exerting authority, because it can be exercised (an issue of needing to feel in control?) Something about the situation just seems disassociated from reality - I'm not sure what, but it does frustrate...
​

Self-esteem - the regard in which you hold yourself in relation to others - or at least some sense of comparison with others.
Ingenuity - the ability to engage in creative problem-solving - being able to come up with creative solutions for gnarly problems. I just wanted to say that I derive huge amounts of self-esteem from my ingenuity which is something i have in abundance.

I cannot resist a challenge. I can always find an answer, and I will not stop trying until I do (or some outside force intervenes). I have trouble finishing simple chores due to procrastination, yet I will often stubbornly finish what I *do* start in one sustained effort.

I certainly have the compulsion to crack any problem I see in front of me... but something about this discussion of self-esteem and pride in relation to problem solving abilities... doesn't make sense to me. For a long time I can't remember feeling proud or talented or anything like that when I crack a particularly difficult problem. I just work through it and move on...

Does anyone else feel a similar oddity about this?
​

 

[Beat Mango]

Sapphire, could you also post up the one for Artisan and Guardian? Haha. (no really, please)

 

[eudemonia]

I definitely feel your frustrations here, Motrhead... At work, I feel like one of the most effective, autonomous individuals there... And any time I lose to defocusing, or evaluating what I'm doing is usually made up for by the fact that it's very rare I stop to gab with everyone else... (Sometimes I wonder if everyone else in the place spends an hour or two each day just chatting...)​

Even so, I often feel condescended to and unrecognized for it... I occasionally wonder if it's a superiority / control thing coming out of the management. Recognizing there's been a lot of good work would necessitate some kind of recompense... Or a more respectful approach towards me...​

Of course, I work under an ISTJ boss, so... being the lowest position in the department, by policy my work will be the lowest quality? Or, it's just an exercise in exerting authority, because it can be exercised (an issue of needing to feel in control?) Something about the situation just seems disassociated from reality - I'm not sure what, but it does frustrate...​

I certainly have the compulsion to crack any problem I see in front of me... but something about this discussion of self-esteem and pride in relation to problem solving abilities... doesn't make sense to me. For a long time I can't remember feeling proud or talented or anything like that when I crack a particularly difficult problem. I just work through it and move on...
​

Does anyone else feel a similar oddity about this?​

Hi Sapphire,
I haven't got a lot of time to respond to your post but I will give it more thought. I just wanted to say that a lot of the latest thinking about change and leadership is focusing on the role of conversations as being the main mechanisms through which organisations function. This is not saying that conversations are good; it is saying that organisations are nothing more than conversations - past, present and future. One of the most frustrating things that competent people disciver in mid career is that you do not get rewarded for pure competence. You have to be 'good enough' but assuming you are (and lots of people are good enough) what's more important is being known and trusted. To be trusted you have to be out there with people as a person, being authentic but not being aloof or 'unknown' or overly concerned with perfection (which scares the living daylights out of people - I have a good true story about this, if you're interested). Conversations are also, therefore, the main mechanisms by which trust is acquired and deepened. Trust is a source of power as are networks in this complex, decentralised, chaotic world.

The problem solving thing - yeah, I don't get it either. My self-referential introversion is extreme mind you - it's almost the more someone else values something, the less I value it. I have a book but I immediately lost interest in it as soon as it was published - which means it is not selling but I can't get the motivation to go round and plug it. I am not proud of it nor am I proud of anything I have 'achieved' in worldly terms. I am proud only that I have been able to learn and grow as a person, so that I feel wiser today than I was 20 years ago!

 

[Trayal]

Actually, I think it still looks like a very good fit... just because we INTPs usually have habits which give them constant failure in carrying things through, that doesn't mean we still won't base our value on it! If there's anything that rachets up my stress level, it's trying to meet an obligation when there's doubt about whether I can do it or not... It was particularly bad in school... and judging by the amount of concern over procrastination I've seen posted, I think that's another validation of this...

To me, the bigger question is, why on earth are we basing part of our value on something we're inherently so bad at? Does that make any sense to anyone?​

I'm a little late to this discussion, but I was struck by a thought upon reading this, and wanted to weigh in with my two cents.

For the question above, I can't speak for anybody else, but here's how it works for me:

I am a big procrastinator - which seems to be rather common around here for some reason, heh - and therefore I am painfully aware of the value of followthrough. This is a direct consequence of the problem that my lack of discipline with respect to meeting goals is the single greatest roadblock in my life when it comes to achieving... well, anything.

There is a great deal of frustration that comes with this understanding; I know that getting things done is important, but for some reason the knowledge does not translate into anything concrete.

Cliffs Notes: I value followthrough so much because the things I am good at are effectively worthless without it.

 

[echoplex]

The problem for Idealists is that this ardent wish to be genuine at all times and everywhere actually separates them from the authenticity they demand of themselves, and forces them, to a certain extent, into the very role-playing they want to avoid. NFs report over and over that they are subject to an inner voice which urges them to "be real, be authentic"- always in the NF is that voice reminding them about being whole, unified, and true.

But with this other voice in their head, Idealists are inevitably caught in a dual role. Instead of the whole-hearted, authentic person they want to be, they are at once director and actor: they are on stage, and, at the same time, they are watching themselves being on stage, and prompting themselves with lines. The irony of wanting to be authentically themselves it often leaves Idealists feeling divided and false, standing to one side an telling themselves to be themselves.

Wow, this actually sounds alot like me. I have felt many times like I'm "on stage" in that sense. I have agonized many times about how I wasn't "real" enough in my approach to things and/or people. I'm pretty sure I'm an NT, but I sometimes wonder. Perhaps there's an overlap to this. Perhaps NTs are just as obsessed with authenticity, just that of a different sort. I think both are perfectionists, esp. the introverted ones. I know I sometimes wonder if I can ever truly be true to myself...or if that even means anything.

 

[Rain]

A lot of the time, many of our threads are dealing with fears, insecurities, lack of self-confidence and the like... so I thought I would draw on a section of 'Please Understand Me II' by David Keirsey and see if we can't get another angle on this.

The attached Pdf file is three pages concerning the self-image of Rationals (-NT-s). The basic idea contends that a person's self image has three different facets. The manifestations are charted as:

* * * * *
​

I definitely recommend reading the attachment first, but do you agree with this analysis? Does this capture the essence of what gives INTPs their self-worth?

It's an approximate fit for me... the ingenuity, in particular, seems like an awkward match. The suggestion that NT self-respect derives from autonomy makes a lot of sense to me, personally... Long have I struggled to eliminate dependencies from my life, and I continue it now as I eliminate my student loans with concentrated effort...

But I think the self-confidence section is the most interesting to me. According to Keirsey, NT's self-confidence derives from their resolve...

Once Rationals resolve to do something they have, in a sense, made a contract with themselves, a contract they dare not go back on. Indeed, their worst fear is their determination might weaken, their resolve might falter, and that they will fail in their resolve.

Why is this? Why are NTs so fearful of their will power weakening? It is because they can never take will power for granted, however strong it has proved itself in the past. They know, perhaps better than others, that they are not in charge of their will, but that their will is in charge of them. Einstein was fond of quoting Schopenhauer's words: "Man can do what he wants, but he cannot will what he wills."

Rationals know, for instance, that they cannot will themselves to control involuntary functions, such as speech, sexual desire, digestion, warding off infection, and so on. After all, the involuntary is by definition not subject to the will, but must occur spontaneously.
​

It's fascinating that resolve and willpower are focused around remaining in control... and yet there are so many things fundamentally beyond our control... Particularly emotions - which is something which thwart and frustrate us INTPs so often... The source of our self-confidence is continuously challenged by our own nature?

Indeed, there's a notion from somewhere in eastern philosophy that all suffering comes from needing and attempting to maintain control over things... (and ourselves...?)

So, is this to say that the rise of self-confidence in an INTP is intimately tied with negotiating a compromise between those things in our lives which can be controlled and those things that cannot?
​

Where is this test at? The one to determining which NT you are?

 

[Sapphire Harp]

After checking with Rain, the misunderstanding was pretty simple… Just in case anyone else is mixed up; Keirsey’s theory is a macro-interpretation of the mbti system. The division ‘Rationals’ refers to all four NT types… (INTP, INTJ, ENTP, ENTJ.) The other categories listed in the charts are Artisans (SP), Guardians (SJ) and Idealists (NF). There isn’t a specific test just to establish your profile for Keirsey… Rather, if there is, it’s superfluous to a complete MBTI test.

* * * * *
​

It’s curious to me to look at the various sources of self-image and think about how you know if you are achieving them… It looks like an awful lot of those characteristics are established through comparisons to other people. (Competition, perhaps?)

Guardians find their self-image almost entirely through relation to other people… Artisans and Idealists heavily so… According to the theory, Rationals get their self-esteem by being more ingenious than other people? Perhaps not reveling in it, but recognizing that others have been outstripped, all the same?

It’s also funny to note that ‘autonomy’ is the only trait on the list here that specifically lessens interaction with other people… All the others are neutral or require increased amounts of interaction to satisfy?

* * * * *
​

Wow, this actually sounds alot like me. I have felt many times like I'm "on stage" in that sense. I have agonized many times about how I wasn't "real" enough in my approach to things and/or people. I'm pretty sure I'm an NT, but I sometimes wonder. Perhaps there's an overlap to this. Perhaps NTs are just as obsessed with authenticity, just that of a different sort. I think both are perfectionists, esp. the introverted ones. I know I sometimes wonder if I can ever truly be true to myself...or if that even means anything.

Decaf was saying that he felt like the four super-types model was more flawed than the sixteen type approach of MBTI... And I wouldn't be surprised of it, myself either - so perhaps that's a reason why the NF self-confidence aspect sounds so familiar to you, Echoplex? Perhaps the INTP type straddles the fence between authenticity and resoluteness?

I've personally experienced the confusion of watching myself trying to be myself, as well... but a real fear of not being authentic doesn't really resonate with me... And I can't really think of a connection between resolve and authenticity... So, I feel like there's a gap here.

Can anyone think of some other trait which could contend with resolve as the source of an INTPs self-confidence? Or any of these aspects for that matter?

* * * * *
​

*Pondering on the authenticity, simultaneous actor and audience notion...*

It's curious to think how focused on "doing" that most modern acting is based on (Stanislavski, mostly. In my experience.) The theory is, the authenticity of the moment and emotions an actor wishes to portray is created by their actions.

In pure Stanislavskian acting - every single line of text has an action assigned that guides it. For one sentence an actor will be "attacking" someone, then their next sentence they might "bait" the person they're speaking to, and then change to "seducing" them - all of the above focused on getting what their character wants.

I have known several actors who's ability to be cast is diminished by "thinking" on stage. That is an action which literally does not exist in Stanislavski, because all valid actions are done to other people. That's how realism is created onstage. And, indeed - how does one act 'thinking'? One of my friends, in particular, was told by a director in rehearsal, "You're being thinking man again! Stop it! Stop thinking and act!"

So, the default action of an INTP is considered a dead, null zone when trying to perform “authentically”…

Of course, what they are actually trying to achieve is a sense of heightened realism - more real than real… Because theatre revolves around showing the more intense, more dramatic moments of stories…

I feel like this could be useful, but I just can’t seem to wrap it back around in a way to aid the topic… Is anyone seeing a bridge across the gap?

* * * * *
​

P.S. This is a post I’m restoring from when the forum crashed… Although, I’ve expanded it.
​