INTP vs INTJ

[Kianara]

Just occurred me, in case we need it:

Dastardly anti-INTJ plan #23;
Inflitrate an INTJ forum and ask who is the smartest poster.


​

What're plans #1 - 22?

Sad part is, it might work, they would all say they were, then the arguments would begin, not so bad at first, just whatever they think is wrong with each other would be brought up, but shortly they would all lose their confidence since they would all be arguing on an even playing ground and it would get personal. Then they would all implode and we would be the only introverted rationals left AHAHAHA

Eh. It would probably work on the majority of INTJs, but not all of them. Especially since we probably won't lose our self confidence over other INTJ's comments. We'd be too sure that they're wrong. Plus you'll still have some (like me) who wouldn't really care what the others said and watch in amusement as they imploded. How will you get rid of the rest then?

WE WON'T DIE!!!

Is this why you continue to insist that Descartes was an INTJ via signature? We all know he was an INTP..

No way, but that's a debate for another thread. XP

 

[JoeJoe]

We essentially turn into idiots when faced with a situation we are completely and utterly unprepared for. I, naturally, avoid such situations by preparing for every eventuality.

In order to avoid being surprised, I run through every possible situation in my head. For instance, if my mom is late picking me up, I immediately run through my worst case scenario that my entire family died in a car crash to avoid being surprised if this is the case.

That's exactly what my INTJ father does as a job. He does a thing called FMEA (Failure Mode and Effects Analysis) for a car seat and car interiors company (Johnson Controls). That means, they try to find out every single thing that could possibly go wrong from design to production, so that the mistakes can be aborted in the design process and thus save money.

 

[IfloatTHRUlife]

@ kianara- Quick thought, if you cant trust the judgment of another person, especially one from another INTJ enough to consider its validity and argue against it, then why are INTJs considered open minded? Between posts in forums from people claiming to be INTJ, and my personal experiences with an INTJ i know, i see INTJs as being completely oblivious to others ideas of what might be true.

I have noticed them rethink certain situations once they have had time to think by themselvses, but that doesnt make someone open minded, it makes them cynical.

(this was not a personal attack, just a question i was thinking about)

 

[Kianara]

@ kianara- Quick thought, if you cant trust the judgment of another person, especially one from another INTJ enough to consider its validity and argue against it, then why are INTJs considered open minded? Between posts in forums from people claiming to be INTJ, and my personal experiences with an INTJ i know, i see INTJs as being completely oblivious to others ideas of what might be true.

I have noticed them rethink certain situations once they have had time to think by themselvses, but that doesnt make someone open minded, it makes them cynical.

(this was not a personal attack, just a question i was thinking about)

I take no offense, I understand that it's not a personal attack or the like.

I trust some people's judgment and impressions, and if someone I trust in that way criticizes me or gives me advice I'll take it. However, I don't just hear someone's opinion and say, "Oh, okay!"

I listen to all people, regardless of station (because, like INTPs, I'm generally unimpressed by station unless well deserved and proven) but run it through my 'thought filter' first. I suppose you could say we're open minded in that we will consider any idea. And I mean any idea or concept. We'll think about it, we'll debate it, we'll sleep on it, but we won't make it our own unless it passes certain personal standards.

For instance, take myself as an example (I'm the only INTJ I know, so I'm the only example I can give...). Whenever I have an idea (for a novel, for a science project, a post on a thread, whatever) I will let it roll around my head for a bit, but it's not a 'resident' idea in my mind until it goes through the 'gauntlet'. Essentially, until I run something through the gauntlet, it stays in my mind's 'idea hotel' where it meets other ideas, grows, and changes. After a while though, I take an idea and I run it through the gauntlet, looking at it from every angle, attacking it, probing it's weaknesses, and testing it's validity. If it survives my 'gauntlet' then it moves out of the 'hotel' and into it's own house, where it will reside in my mind forevermore.

If an idea fails the gauntlet, it's either put back into the hotel until it can make it, or shredded and deleted forever.

I'm not exactly sure why you think rethinking something when given some time is cynical though. Sometimes we'll immediately discount an idea, but let it stay in our minds for a while and discover, upon further thought, that it's much more valid than we originally thought.

 

[IfloatTHRUlife]

"I listen to all people, regardless of station (because, like INTPs, I'm generally unimpressed by station unless well deserved and proven) but run it through my 'thought filter' first. I suppose you could say we're open minded in that we will consider any idea."-Kianara

This is actually a reason i didn't even want to mention what i said, but i still said it because, even though you will listen to anybodies ideas, you still have to criticize every aspect of it before you accept it.

Not saying i just say "oh okay", but i also don't have to apply such great effort to decide whether i believe someone or not, which is why i say INTJs are cynical, you dont trust others unil you have applied your "gauntlet".

 

[Kianara]

"I listen to all people, regardless of station (because, like INTPs, I'm generally unimpressed by station unless well deserved and proven) but run it through my 'thought filter' first. I suppose you could say we're open minded in that we will consider any idea."-Kianara

This is actually a reason i didn't even want to mention what i said, but i still said it because, even though you will listen to anybodies ideas, you still have to criticize every aspect of it before you accept it.

Not saying i just say "oh okay", but i also don't have to apply such great effort to decide whether i believe someone or not, which is why i say INTJs are cynical, you dont trust others unil you have applied your "gauntlet".

INTJs are self confident. It's our big strength, along with being (overly in some cases) pragmatic. Unless I am absolutely sure of someone and their ideas and input, I won't just believe it or adopt it. I do this because I like to know and have my opinions and beliefs affirmed before I let anyone else see them.

If I can't defend my thoughts from myself, I refuse to defend them before others. Which essentially means that I disown those thoughts/beliefs or just put them back into temporary residency until I can own them.

We're not openminded in that we'll believe and accept what's given to us, but we'll listen and consider everything. Even if we initially discount it. And yes: we are cynical in that we'll put anything and everything through hell and back before we'll believe it, but I don't see that as a bad thing.

Part of the reason we're self confident to begin with is that we know what we believe when it comes to just about anything. We know what we have not yet affirmed. We know what we know and know what we don't know. We have this air of 'arrogance' because we've tested and tried all our beliefs and are secure in this knowledge.

I don't think it's truely 'cynical' in the classic sense. (ie: bitterly or sneeringly distrustful, contemptuous, or pessimistic. / showing contempt for accepted standards of honesty or morality by one's actions) We just like our confidence in who we are, and the only way to keep that is to question who we are and what we believe.

 

[IfloatTHRUlife]

Its all good *waves a white flag* I never intended to look so much into this..

 

[Da Blob]

Its all good *waves a white flag* I never intended to look so much into this..

white flag or checkered flag?

 

[IfloatTHRUlife]

What was there to win? If someone won something i either want my prize or consolation prize.

 

[Perseus]

INTJs are self confident. It's our big strength, along with being (overly in some cases) pragmatic. Unless I am absolutely sure of someone and their ideas and input, I won't just believe it or adopt it. I do this because I like to know and have my opinions and beliefs affirmed before I let anyone else see them.

Self confident to the state that they think they are always right and dismiss the ideas of other people. Why they get hated is because they no fully well that others are opposed to their views and go secretly behind the backs of others.

Their weakness is that Snakes (ENTP) can put ideas into their head without them knowing. They take the credit which amounts to plagiarism, but their defence is that do not know they are doing it.

I prefer the Secretary Bird IXXJ who lacks this vanity, but still confident enough. She does not leave you feeling robbed and exploited. She likes to get her own way though.

 

[Kianara]

Self confident to the state that they think they are always right and dismiss the ideas of other people. Why they get hated is because they no fully well that others are opposed to their views and go secretly behind the backs of others.

We're self confident, but if someone is more qualified than us, we won't just ignore and discount them and their ideas. We know what we know, but we also know what we don't know. And yes: We have a tendency to implement our own plans even when/if others may not agree, but we do so with good intent.

 

[Jesin]

more qualified

How do you decide that?

we do so with good intent.

Well, yes, but good intent does not always translate to good results.

 

[Wisp]

Hmm... I'd post, but it would probably come out to say about what Jesin said.

 

[Da Blob]

We're self confident, but if someone is more qualified than us, we won't just ignore and discount them and their ideas. We know what we know, but we also know what we don't know. And yes: We have a tendency to implement our own plans even when/if others may not agree, but we do so with good intent.

well our own ideas do taste better than the ideas of Others
that why I hope to learn the talent of Inspiration
which allows others to claim my ideas as their own....!

 

[Kianara]

How do you decide that?

INTJs can be pretty vain, and we're self-confident, but we're also pragmatics. Variances in individuals can balance this out. Some INTJs are more confident than they are pragmatic and will put more stock in their ideas, even if someone else's are better. Some INTJs are more pragmatic than confident and will do whatever is most efficient (whether or not it includes the implementation of their own ideas).

Generally, the differences vary by individual and by subject. I'm confident in areas I'm familiar in, but in unknown territory I'll put more stock into other's ideas.

Well, yes, but good intent does not always translate to good results.

Indeed, but we always have a backup plan. It may not work, but we always have several in place.

If we don't we'll go into clinical shock.

 

[Carinthian]

Well I've always thought I was an INTP than this...

 

[Carnap]

I was with an INTJ. Man, was that hard. He wants to marry me, but I cannot do it. I have such strong principles. I would express them and he would say I was right. I would talk ten minutes without a pause about why I was against TV from reasons like social determinism to phenomenology of conciousness and he would say I was right. So I thought, ok, he is against TV, too. And then, I would come home, and he would be watching it on the internet !

I have to admit, my temper came out and I broke things, screamed and yelled.

This has happened any time I am PASSIONATELY AGAINST SOMETHING and I find he doesn't care.


He does not have the Perception we have.

 

[pussinboots]

my boyfriend is an intj and i'm incredibly surprised at how sensitively he reacts to criticism from me. i really expected a citadel of stoicism or at least a backbone to buck up as he's an intj but it's really not the case at all.

i'm not known to be vicious but i do admit to a perverse sense of humour and if anyone was to catch my throw....i'd definitely thought it would be an intj.

yer, i too find this combination difficult.

i actually thought i'd hit jackpot with this 'one' (intj) but wowee..........despite the delicious similarities, the differences require industrial strength of action.

 

[Razare]

INTP = Laid back
INTJ = Driven

 

[The Fury]

INTP = Laid back
INTJ = Driven

INTPs can be very driven when they want to. If I find something I'm passionate about, I'll put a great deal of effort into it. Of course, that's somewhat of a rarity.

 

[Kianara]

my boyfriend is an intj and i'm incredibly surprised at how sensitively he reacts to criticism from me. i really expected a citadel of stoicism or at least a backbone to buck up as he's an intj but it's really not the case at all.

i'm not known to be vicious but i do admit to a perverse sense of humour and if anyone was to catch my throw....i'd definitely thought it would be an intj.

yer, i too find this combination difficult.

i actually thought i'd hit jackpot with this 'one' (intj) but wowee..........despite the delicious similarities, the differences require industrial strength of action.

There are always individual variances in behavior, but part of his reaction could actually be some sort of an INTJ thing.

We are very aware of criticism, though we usually develop a mask strong enough to hold up to even the most poisonous barbs at a young age. But we are almost hypersensitive to rejection from those we care about. A slight turn of phrase or expression can tip an aware INTJ off to (mostly) hidden feelings of their loved ones.

If you directed your criticism at your INTJ directly and he has not developed his mask very well (it takes years of honing) he could be reacting to what he percieves as outright rejection.

We care about very few people, generally fewer care about us in return. When we see rejection from someone we love, it hurts more than 100 criticisms from people we don't care about.

I don't know your INTJ personally, but this is just what I've learned.

 

[pussinboots]

But we are almost hypersensitive to rejection from those we care about. A slight turn of phrase or expression can tip an aware INTJ off to (mostly) hidden feelings of their loved ones.

If you directed your criticism at your INTJ directly and he has not developed his mask very well (it takes years of honing) he could be reacting to what he percieves as outright rejection.

We care about very few people, generally fewer care about us in return. When we see rejection from someone we love, it hurts more than 100 criticisms from people we don't care about.

I don't know your INTJ personally, but this is just what I've learned.

kianara, i think you are quite on the money. he carries a massive fear of rejection.
thanks for your intj insight and taking the time.

 

[Kianara]

kianara, i think you are quite on the money. he carries a massive fear of rejection.
thanks for your intj insight and taking the time.

Hey, anytime. I do pride myself on my INTJ insight (With my usual self-confident INTJ way ). It's kind of fun being on a forum where just knowing my own type is useful to others. If he starts doing any other strange things, you know who to ask.

 

[Carnap]

Hey, that is so interesting kianara ! My fiancé is INTJ and he never let me break up with him the hundreds of times I've tried (times when I've felt we don't have the same principles, and when I feel that someone doesn't have the same principles as I do, I lose feeling for the person quickly).

Is his way of hanging on just a fear of rejection? Or is it a deep attachment?

 

[Kianara]

Is his way of hanging on just a fear of rejection? Or is it a deep attachment?

Well, I had a really long response, but my computer deleted it so I'll be a little less verbose.

INTJs are close to very few people. We don't make friends easily and are usually slow to open up to them and become close. Being open with others is... risky (best word I can think of) in our minds. We open up to somebody, become close, and put ourselves in a position where they can hurt us, not through the usual means (though we fear those too) but by rejection of ourselves.

I mean this rejection in a different way than usual. With most people, INTJs are somewhat aloof and self-confident. Because all other people see is the outer shell, our masks and the front or normality we put on for the rest of the world. When they reject us, we don't care. They're only rejecting our mask. It is only to a select few that we take off our mask, our protection for.

By showing somebody, carefully chosen and trusted, our inner, honest selves, we become very sensitive to rejection from that person because we can't tell where it's coming from.

Your INTJ probably doesn't understand that you're rejecting him because of differing principles (we're not very good with interpersonal relationships as a rule), he just sees that you're rejecting him and is assuming that you're rejecting him. His whole honest self that he has fearfully and hesitatingly revealed to you.

To answer your original question, his 'hanging on' is both an expression of a fear of rejection AND a sign of deep attachment.

Because he wouldn't fear your rejection if he wasn't deeply attached to you. It is because he is very close to you that he fears your rejection, because it would be unavoidable evidence (even to an INTJ) that he is unworthy (or a loser, or worthless; whatever it is he doesn't want to be, for me it's unworthy) to you.

He sees it this way: I open up and reveal myself to you. You reject me, I do not understand why. You reject my true self that I revealed to you. It hurts beyond all belief. I will try and hold on to you because I really like you and because your rejection will be the confirmation of all my worst fears (and undermine my self-confidence and convince me, once and for all, that relationships with people will only ever hurt me).

Not sure if I answered you well, but it makes (mostly) sense to me. If I wasn't clear, I'd be happy to try again.

(Edit: maybe I should make an INTJ help desk thread, where I answer questions the INTPs have about their J cousins. XP)

 

[pussinboots]

Hey, that is so interesting kianara ! My fiancé is INTJ and he never let me break up with him the hundreds of times I've tried (times when I've felt we don't have the same principles, and when I feel that someone doesn't have the same principles as I do, I lose feeling for the person quickly).

Is his way of hanging on just a fear of rejection? Or is it a deep attachment?

omg, Carnap.............this is my life at the moment. he will fight tooth and nail to keep me, he says it isn't fear that motivates his struggling to hold on to me but rather, a deep belief that he just 'knows' that we're meant to be.

he thinks i'll come to my senses soon enough............haha.

and Kianara - keep up the good work! i'll be mooching your good words, and it's guaranteed that i'll be back )

 

[Carnap]

Thanks so much !

Yes, pussinboots, it is so strange that you have the same situation ! Mine said something similar. Every time I try to pull away he says 'oh, you're being delirious again.' And ignores me until I stop talking about seperation.

He always says he knew he wanted to marry me from the start. I'm always just like...ummm...not me !

 

[Sapphire Harp]

Every time I try to pull away he says 'oh, you're being delirious again.' And ignores me until I stop talking about seperation.

Maybe someone else would offer different advice, but I once found myself in a position like that, trying to extract myself from a relationship with either an ISFJ or an INFJ... Long story short, any contact at all was treated as still part of the relationship, with the expectation that it would shortly return to whatever she preferred.

Ultimately, it seemed like I was being viewed as too weak to make a decision about ending it... or something like that. Maybe it was just a plan to force reconciliation by rejecting everything else. I don't know, but in the end I rejected any and all contact entirely to get her to stop trying to revive the relationship.

It also seemed like a thing of disrespect to have my thoughts on feelings about the issue summarily dismissed.

Anyway, I hope your two INTJ connections are more empathetic and open minded than my IXFJ was. I don't know how much this all crosses over to apply, but you might be in for a troubling time if it does and push comes to shove about the end of a relationship.
​

 

[Carnap]

It also seemed like a thing of disrespect to have my thoughts on feelings about the issue summarily dismissed.

Totally see what you mean ! I feel like I've thought that phrase in my head a million times.

 

[snoop]

INTJs are close to very few people. We don't make friends easily and are usually slow to open up to them and become close. Being open with others is... risky (best word I can think of) in our minds. We open up to somebody, become close, and put ourselves in a position where they can hurt us, not through the usual means (though we fear those too) but by rejection of ourselves.

I mean this rejection in a different way than usual. With most people, INTJs are somewhat aloof and self-confident. Because all other people see is the outer shell, our masks and the front or normality we put on for the rest of the world. When they reject us, we don't care. They're only rejecting our mask. It is only to a select few that we take off our mask, our protection for.

By showing somebody, carefully chosen and trusted, our inner, honest selves, we become very sensitive to rejection from that person because we can't tell where it's coming from.

Your INTJ probably doesn't understand that you're rejecting him because of differing principles (we're not very good with interpersonal relationships as a rule), he just sees that you're rejecting him and is assuming that you're rejecting him. His whole honest self that he has fearfully and hesitatingly revealed to you.

To answer your original question, his 'hanging on' is both an expression of a fear of rejection AND a sign of deep attachment.

Because he wouldn't fear your rejection if he wasn't deeply attached to you. It is because he is very close to you that he fears your rejection, because it would be unavoidable evidence (even to an INTJ) that he is unworthy (or a loser, or worthless; whatever it is he doesn't want to be, for me it's unworthy) to you.

He sees it this way: I open up and reveal myself to you. You reject me, I do not understand why. You reject my true self that I revealed to you. It hurts beyond all belief. I will try and hold on to you because I really like you and because your rejection will be the confirmation of all my worst fears (and undermine my self-confidence and convince me, once and for all, that relationships with people will only ever hurt me).

Kianara - Thanks for speaking what's on my mind lately, especially after receiving a major pushback from the INTP guy that I'm talking to. I think I also took it as a major rejection. The pain and agony was just inexpressible. I can't verbalize it or express it in any way... There were moments I thought I would not make it 'coz it's too painful. I kept thinking why I have to open up to be understood and then got rejected. It certainly felt like fallen from heaven to hell. I'm slowly learning to pull myself together again.

 

[Kianara]

Kianara - Thanks for speaking what's on my mind lately, especially after receiving a major pushback from the INTP guy that I'm talking to. I think I also took it as a major rejection. The pain and agony was just inexpressible. I can't verbalize it or express it in any way... There were moments I thought I would not make it 'coz it's too painful. I kept thinking why I have to open up to be understood and then got rejected. It certainly felt like fallen from heaven to hell. I'm slowly learning to pull myself together again.

Hey, no problem. I'm here whenever you need an ear. I'm sorry that your INTP pushed you back. It hurts when you open up, put yourself on the line, and get shut down. It happens with friends too, I think that I've found a great friend, open up, and they immediately put up a Stop Sign (Which is a metaphor I use in my mental processes. Long story.) and pull back. It just sucks when you have you, your very self, and it's rejected.

But don't let yourself fall too far. We're INTJs, remember. If it makes you feel better, just for a time, it might help to withdraw and be extremely distant for a while. Just temporarily. It helps me collect my inner self and shuts up the annoying people trying to 'help' (which I don't mind, but it becomes smothering).

I was reading some articles yesterday and came across one that said that, of all the types, INTJs have the hardest time finding mates. I'm starting to think that it's very true.

 

[snoop]

But don't let yourself fall too far. We're INTJs, remember. If it makes you feel better, just for a time, it might help to withdraw and be extremely distant for a while. Just temporarily. It helps me collect my inner self and shuts up the annoying people trying to 'help' (which I don't mind, but it becomes smothering).

I was reading some articles yesterday and came across one that said that, of all the types, INTJs have the hardest time finding mates. I'm starting to think that it's very true.

It took me 3 weeks to rebound. It was really difficult to pull myself together but I survived, without cutting him off or yelling at him.

I think INTJ girls have the hardest time finding mates and I've given up years ago until this guy came by. Most girls that I know stay with the guys that they knew from college so keep your eyes open and be willing to work on it. It does get a lot harder later on to find the right guy when you start working.

 

[Chronomar]

Huh. My dad is an INTJ too. How odd.

My dad is also an INTJ. Really odd. This pattern (or coincidence) means further investigation.

 

[Kianara]

I think INTJ girls have the hardest time finding mates and I've given up years ago until this guy came by. Most girls that I know stay with the guys that they knew from college so keep your eyes open and be willing to work on it. It does get a lot harder later on to find the right guy when you start working.

Amen. It probably doesn't help that we don't really need people. Not really. So we're less apt to be actively looking for a mate.

I've been despairing lately actually, looking at the statistics and calculating my chances of dying a virgin. You can just guess what they look like.

If genetics have some minor part in personality type, I can see why female INTJs are less than 1% of the population. We're not very good at passing our genes on.

 

[The Fury]

I think everyone needs people, if you never interact with others then you have no chance to grow as a human being. It is through adversity we flourish, others force us to evaluate who we are as people. I've spent weeks, by myself, living almost as a hermit and I think the times I do that weaken me.

You're only sixteen, I didn't meet my first girlfriend until college.

 

[snoop]

Amen. It probably doesn't help that we don't really need people. Not really. So we're less apt to be actively looking for a mate.

I've been despairing lately actually, looking at the statistics and calculating my chances of dying a virgin. You can just guess what they look like.

If genetics have some minor part in personality type, I can see why female INTJs are less than 1% of the population. We're not very good at passing our genes on.

I agree with "The Fury" that we need people. Just that we can only control ourselves but we cannot control what other people do. Over time, we'll learn how to accept things and people who are so different from us. It's something against the nature of an INTJ... but we do it to survive.

It's interesting to link our personality with genetics... =) Sometimes, I feel like I'm an alien travelling on earth. In a way, it's so hard for me to give up that INTP guy is because he understands how it feels to be an alien. We share the same difficulty.

 

[Gorgrim]

Amen. It probably doesn't help that we don't really need people. Not really. So we're less apt to be actively looking for a mate.

I've been despairing lately actually, looking at the statistics and calculating my chances of dying a virgin. You can just guess what they look like.

If genetics have some minor part in personality type, I can see why female INTJs are less than 1% of the population. We're not very good at passing our genes on.

But if an ENFJ get's a child that turns out to be an INTJ, and ESFJ's are more likely to have children, it's fine. And who knows if intj's can't come from non-INTJ mothers

anyway i have a question: You think intj's are feminine by nature as being women, that they enjoy relationships etc more than providing for the family? Intj's seem like awesome partners, even if it takes a certain person to appreciate them.. I could only see a problem if both people in the relationship want's to work , since that defeats the purpose of a real relationship imo... The guy just needs to have space to actually be a guy in the relationship, even if the intj women has an approach different from Feeling women... there's hope, there's 40% T-ing women out there...

 

[Kianara]

I think everyone needs people, if you never interact with others then you have no chance to grow as a human being. It is through adversity we flourish, others force us to evaluate who we are as people. I've spent weeks, by myself, living almost as a hermit and I think the times I do that weaken me.

You're right. I spoke in haste and arrogence. Everyone needs people to some degree (even if you just rule them from atop your throne XP). And I do enjoy my friends and family very much. Thank you for the correction.

You're only sixteen, I didn't meet my first girlfriend until college.

I know. I also have family pressure because my cousin got married at 19 (and she wasn't pregnant or anything).

I agree with "The Fury" that we need people. Just that we can only control ourselves but we cannot control what other people do. Over time, we'll learn how to accept things and people who are so different from us. It's something against the nature of an INTJ... but we do it to survive.

I've been realizing why I have so much trouble with people an emotions lately. I can't control or even predict them. I try my best and I'm usually pretty good, but I can't help being surprised from time to time, and I hate surprises. (I don't hate the intent behind birthday presents or nice things like that, I just generally take pains not to be totally surprised by them. When I am surprised, I'm usually happy beyond belief, if it's a 'nice' surprise, or go into clinical shock, if it's a reeeeeally bad surprise.)

It's interesting to link our personality with genetics... =) Sometimes, I feel like I'm an alien travelling on earth. In a way, it's so hard for me to give up that INTP guy is because he understands how it feels to be an alien. We share the same difficulty.

I know that (if there is even a correlation) it's not a great one, but over the ages I think that the ability of a type to find a mate and reproduce, which is generally greater for ES types than IN types, must have had some bearing on how the types began to be more or less common. And we are aliens. What're you talking about. XP

 

[Kianara]

But if an ENFJ get's a child that turns out to be an INTJ, and ESFJ's are more likely to have children, it's fine. And who knows if intj's can't come from non-INTJ mothers

I know it's not set in stone, I was just thinking of long-term changes. If, over 100 generations, INTP/INTJ types are less likely to find a mate and reproduce than, say, ESTJ or ESFJ types, wouldn't it have a small bearing on the spread of types after 100 generations?

anyway i have a question: You think intj's are feminine by nature as being women, that they enjoy relationships etc more than providing for the family? Intj's seem like awesome partners, even if it takes a certain person to appreciate them.. I could only see a problem if both people in the relationship want's to work , since that defeats the purpose of a real relationship imo... The guy just needs to have space to actually be a guy in the relationship, even if the intj women has an approach different from Feeling women... there's hope, there's 40% T-ing women out there...

Hmmm... I don't think I can accurately give a good answer as to whether or not INTJ women enjoy relationships more than providing for a family. I think a lot of that depends on individual variation and how they're raised. I know that I don't really have too much of a leaning.

I want to be a novelist, so I won't be making too much money at the outset. I don't have some sort of complex that makes me want to provide for the family. If I was married and my husband had a good job and was fine with me staying home to write, that would be ideal for me. If I was a single mother and had to provide, I would do that.

As for giving the guy room to 'be a guy,' I don't think that'd be to much of a problem with most INTJ women as long as he wasn't being stupid and inefficient about it. As long as it's practical, I myself would see no problem.

But, again, I can only really speak for myself here. *yells for snoop to come give her opinion*

 

[Razare]

Perhaps you might consider becoming more in touch with your feeling side? This may make you more desirable to be around.

I'm not saying disregard logic, simply figure out a way to integrate feeling into your logical systems. Maybe you ladies already do this to some degree, but for me it's been a challenge.

Like....

I'm feeling X because of Y. Placating this feeling by doing Z will improve my mood, which on some level is important to me, and therefore logical to do.

Maybe this sounds silly to you but I think some of us walk around like robots, I know I used to.

 

[Kianara]

Perhaps you might consider becoming more in touch with your feeling side? This may make you more desirable to be around.

I'm not saying disregard logic, simply figure out a way to integrate feeling into your logical systems. Maybe you ladies already do this to some degree, but for me it's been a challenge.

Like....

I'm feeling X because of Y. Placating this feeling by doing Z will improve my mood, which on some level is important to me, and therefore logical to do.

Maybe this sounds silly to you but I think some of us walk around like robots, I know I used to.

It's kind of interesting that you say so, because just yesterday I came to the conclusion that I should try and develop my Fi more. That I should not try and use logic to overanalyze my feelings, but just accept that they dont' make sense and deal with it.

 

[Razare]

Also, I would say don't be confined by your "type". I was an INTJ that morphed into an INTP because of successive failures. It was great that I failed so much back then because it matured me. (Though, it did make me very lazy too which is not good.)

Now that I'm an INTP, I'm deciding that feelings aren't all that bad and plan to slowly morph into an INXP. Maybe even an INFJ who is very capable in the logic department, if my motivation ever returns to me.

Changing is slow and difficult, but I believe it makes you a more likable person if you desire relationships. Because of my inherent thinking nature, I can always get along with the NT types. So why not branch out so I can get along with the NF types too?

 

[FacetiousPersona]

Also, I would say don't be confined by your "type". I was an INTJ that morphed into an INTP because of successive failures. It was great that I failed so much back then because it matured me. (Though, it did make me very lazy too which is not good.)

Now that I'm an INTP, I'm deciding that feelings aren't all that bad and plan to slowly morph into an INXP. Maybe even an INFJ who is very capable in the logic department, if my motivation ever returns to me.

INTPs are meant to evolve into an INTJ. I'm astounded that this has occurred, because it is like Raichu evolving into Pikachu.

 

[Razare]

Well in many ways it was a regression. I was depressed for a time and lost a lot of confidence in myself. I was never a strong J either, like I would procrastinate back then too, just I'd make sure I met any deadlines. So the subtle inclination toward P was there.

Just the step backwards made me realize a lot. All the stuff I valued back then was silly, even if I achieved it all, where would it leave me? I'd just want to achieve more to keep myself entertained. That's really what it was, self entertainment, with little regard for other people. I don't mean to belittle other INTJ's either, I was just a very immature one.

I'd rather explore the other direction in life as logical understanding and academic acheivements I now view as shallow interests on my part. I'm going to become an accountant and do a boring simple job, so really this stifles any INTJ left in me (stifles the INTP too). There is no choice left but to find more purpose in life.

 

[pussinboots]

Well in many ways it was a regression. I was depressed for a time and lost a lot of confidence in myself. I was never a strong J either, like I would procrastinate back then too, just I'd make sure I met any deadlines. So the subtle inclination toward P was there.

Just the step backwards made me realize a lot. All the stuff I valued back then was silly, even if I achieved it all, where would it leave me? I'd just want to achieve more to keep myself entertained. That's really what it was, self entertainment, with little regard for other people. I don't mean to belittle other INTJ's either, I was just a very immature one.

I'd rather explore the other direction in life as logical understanding and academic acheivements I now view as shallow interests on my part. I'm going to become an accountant and do a boring simple job, so really this stifles any INTJ left in me (stifles the INTP too). There is no choice left but to find more purpose in life.

I'm really sitting with this post, Razare.....thanks for your honesty - it all really resonates with me.

 

[Carnap]

Do INTJs have disorganized books and papers all over their office or house? I know I do. I was in my professor's office, he's a Logician. His office is hardly decorated but has piles and piles of papers and books halfway up the ceiling.

I want to type him as an INTP (yeah, just based on that, I know, not so good) because it gives me hope that I will one day overcome my procrastination and be a professor in the university.

 

[Razare]

Depends. It's bound to be more orderly than an INTP, the problem is whether they've developed a sensing function. Everything may have a logical place, but if an INTJ doesn't see it sitting there, then they wont interact with it and move it to its proper place.

If the sensing function is slightly to moderately developed, they're apt to be neat freaks.

 

[brain enclosed in flesh]

Funny. I always thought this friend of mine was an INTP because we 'connected', had similar senses of humor, etc. But after reading this I would have to say he's an INTJ. Never occurred to me, because he seemed so open-minded in our talks. But it's like he would go along with the idea to show how easy-going he was but never follow through. Very rigid, too, and he LOVES his routine. Then it's like he weighed the pros and cons of our friendship, concluded that the cons outweighed the pros, and that was it. Gone gone gone, with no return.

Reading this has been very enlightening; it gives me some peace.

Oh, and my dad is an ISTJ. I think the J is so hard on us Ps. It makes us question our worth.

 

[Oblivious]

If you learn to get things done as well as Js, but remain a P in behaviour, people will either love you or curse the injustice of this world. Its like you're either extremely lucky or extremely talented.

All intps really need is focus and confidence. With that its really hard to stop us.

 

[Kianara]

Depends. It's bound to be more orderly than an INTP, the problem is whether they've developed a sensing function. Everything may have a logical place, but if an INTJ doesn't see it sitting there, then they wont interact with it and move it to its proper place.

If the sensing function is slightly to moderately developed, they're apt to be neat freaks.

Ummm... when I'm stressed and preoccupied with something in my mind, I usually end up cleaning my room. Just putting everything back where it should belong and putting my hands to good use. This unfortunately means that when I'm stressed, my mom is happy because I'm cleaning my room for once.

I don't put my Se function to very active use usually. However, every few weeks or so (it varies), I get these 'Se moods' where I am all but out of character. For the day or three that it lasts, I take dangerous risks and look for situations where I am likely to injure or hurt myself. I start fights, almost break my ankle, and fall down the stairs for the heck of it. All to get a rush of Sensory input.

Whenever I'm like that, it generally scares my friends to some degree since I suddnely seem to be hyper-aware of everything around me when I'm usually somewhat oblivious. I'll know somebody is behind me when they're being silent and such.

So, I'm not exactly sure whether my Inferior Se function is actually developed or just has days where it takes over my mind.