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Forum Mafia Game #2

The Gopher

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Yeah I actually love this Nk. I mean... in the sense that it's so out there mafia might have overplayed underplaying it in a sense.

Zerk was so against the lynch on Happy and with the Helvete NK it is an interesting dynamic contrast which will be amazing to look at no matter what side she's on. Most interesting is my two reads in Happy and Helvete were completely off.

Hado want my post now or an hour or so later? I don't want to detract from NK and lynch talk what do you think?
 

The Gopher

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24 hours is a bit much I was thinking 6-12 at most. Anyway I'll see what other people think.

I'll have dinner and watch it at any rate.
 

Reluctantly

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meh, so Happy was Town. Well a shit Town then because he didn't even try to defend himself.

Still think Zerk is mafia. She didn't have a problem staying on Helvete when we all went on Happy. Why? I think she wasn't even fazed at the thought of Happy being mafia because she didn't even openly consider switching to Happy. And I'm willing to bet lynching Helvete is to make anyone double-guess voting her, because would she NK Helvete and make her look like a target if she's mafia?

I know, I know, if she's not mafia, that's what the mafia would do to get us to go after Zerk anyway, which is why it's the perfect play for getting us off Zerk.

I'm waiting to see what Gopher says about Hado. I've got some questions about his strange behavior against Gopher as well.

And Game of Thrones was awesome this week. :D
 

Hadoblado

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I personally want the response asap, but I don't think it's good for the others to be distracted from the night actions so quickly. I'm very wary of making this game our personal showdown.

Yeah I'm certainly a bit confused about the Helvete NK.
 

Hadoblado

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meh, so Happy was Town. Well a shit Town then because he didn't even try to defend himself.

Still think Zerk is mafia. She didn't have a problem staying on Helvete when we all went on Happy. Why? I think she wasn't even fazed at the thought of Happy being mafia because she didn't even openly consider switching to Happy. And I'm willing to bet lynching Helvete is to make anyone double-guess voting her, because would she NK Helvete and make her look like a target if she's mafia?

I know, I know, if she's not mafia, that's what the mafia would do to get us to go after Zerk anyway, which is why it's the perfect play for getting us off Zerk.

I'm waiting to see what Gopher says about Hado. I've got some questions about his strange behavior against Gopher as well.

And Game of Thrones was awesome this week. :D
Please don't wait on the case. State your thoughts. The whole reason he's waiting is so as not to distract you.

Also your entire post looks like you've been successfully wifomed :cat:
 

Hadoblado

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@Gopher
Post it when you wake up tomorrow morning IMO. That'd be 11.5 hours +your laziness :DDD

That way everyone's had opportunity to comment.

Ima go back over Helvetes filter and try and figure shit out.
 

The Gopher

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^ Yeah part of the reason I'm waiting is because if I post straight away it allows mafia to not take positions or give ideas before I post where they have all the information. Town should be happy to post, see my post then post again.

Also Lynch talk and Nk talk.
 

Reluctantly

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Uh-huh. You would say that, given my mafia read on you. It's alright though, I will make a case, but I need to wait on everyone else. And there's still players that need to participate. This game is less about making cases and more with convincing other people, so I'll wait, thank you.
 

The Gopher

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7785 words if everything gets copied into a word document. That's as much proof I can give that I'm not changing it.
 

Reluctantly

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Also your entire post looks like you've been successfully wifomed :cat:
Hardly, though it may seem that way. If Zerk wasn't mafia, there'd be no reason for mafia to NK Helvete. Reason being, mafia thrive on confusion and taking out someone vague like Pmj would have been a much better move. But no, Helvete was removed as if to make a perfect move that would steer away from Zerk. Nice try.
 

Hadoblado

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What. I'm not telling you to make a case. Why would a mafia hado say that?

Making cases = convincing people.

I mean if you've failed to make the case, who have you convinced?

Sounds like you just don't want to do anything.
 

Hadoblado

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Hardly, though it may seem that way. If Zerk wasn't mafia, there'd be no reason for mafia to NK Helvete. Reason being, mafia thrive on confusion and taking out someone vague like Pmj would have been a much better move. But no, Helvete was removed as if to make a perfect move that would steer away from Zerk. Nice try.
Well, I disagree with that, but I'm glad your discussing so I won't complain.
 

Reluctantly

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Making cases = convincing people.
I disagree. Making cases gives mafia a chance to distort and dissuade.

But playing with people to trap them in corners so that they become their own case is much much better. So I'll sit back. You can write up all the essays on your own WIFOM arguments. I'll let the game speak for itself.
 

Urakro

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Probably just going to lurk this one out (I have those privileges, right?)

That said, I don't really have much. I'll still be reading and thinking, and just put thoughts in notepad. So far, I think Sinny is town, which is good to cross off the list of suspects.

Hado, (being the perfect player with so many layers of understanding) is supremely hard to read. Whether he got town or mafia, he'd always come up with convincing things to say, thus his role is completely encrypted. Though I'm not meaning to draw suspicion to him, because he's just as likely town as the other.

redbaron hasn't really felt any need to convince anyone of anything, he just playin the game which seems typical. More town than mafia.

Zerk feels town, and I don't mind the thought of reluctantly as town. Bronto's replacement is completely shadowed by his un-involvement, so 50/50 there too.

I don't know about gopher, which all seems closely tied with hado. And Jenny, I'm not sure about either.

Coolios, ciao.
 

Hadoblado

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Okay Reluctantly. Don't mind me.

You're interacting etc., so I don't actually mind. I lose sight of my goals sometimes. My bad.

Urakro you don't have lurk privileges sorry. We need you in on this. You're not *that* confirmed, and even if you were, a confirmed town is very valuable to have around, as people can actually trust them. At no time do you ever reach a point of not needing to contribute.

Besides, part of the town read on you is the precedent you set by having posted so much. If you went quiet, that unspoken promise is no longer worth anything, and thus our confidence in you diminishes.
 

PmjPmj

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I'm a bit pissed off, really. I know I'll have to substantiate these claims at one point or another (or maybe I won't; that's entirely my prerogative) but right now, this is the impression I get:

Hado (Vote Hadoblado - I'm nothing if not consistent) is to my mind a Mafia player. To me, the way he started the game (#10 "conspicuous silence"; #21 "Lurk > ??? Town win!!" - plus other mentions of lurking) smacked of someone who was unsure of how to proceed. Not uncommon for a new mafia player.

His proclamation of a town victory being desirable reeks of a cover tactic. Either he’s a really bad town (unlikely) or he’s being a bit full on to obfuscate the truth - he’s a Mafia.

By #36 he comes out swinging with bold assertions such as “If you vote for yourself, I vote for you” etc. Well, isn’t that a wonderful way to actually announce, right under your fucking noses that he’s going to get a cheeky vote in (which would potentially tip the scales) for someone who would very likely be a town player. Maybe. I admit that’s speculative at best, but think about it.

At some point or another, he asked one of the Cheese people to change their avatar for “The town’s benefit”. Again with this positioning. Nobody knows that this guy is a townie. Nobody. We have no data, and yet here he is parading around like he fucking owns the place, dictating to people.

I call him out on his bullshit, and it’s politely ignored - not just by Hado, but by the other people I suspect:

FOS Redbaron - yeah, he’s defended me but:

He’d know I’m a town if he’s a mafia git
He knows I’m inexperienced and therefore very unlikely to be a threat

He rocks up and proposes the odd argument, but I dunno. Something fishy going on there.

FOS Gopher - you talk too much, and I’m willing to bet it’s a smokescreen. Y’all playing off one another, creating a lot of noise. A clear picture is - in my mind at least - forming here.

Hado himself - whilst not acknowledging my post - did back down for a short while after I posted. If not to alleviate suspicions and fly under the radar for a bit, then what? I think he wanted to avoid the hounds picking up on his scent further.

I’m still trying to get a read on bug w/ tits person, and also Sinny. Speaking of which - WTF, Sinny? Two hours or so researching aliens? Whilst I have certainly done that in the past, sending a couple of brief PMs to you does not constitute two hours of research. Let’s not also forget that I announced my suspicious before I bunked off the game to do some RL shit.

Let’s cut to the chase - open your fucking eyes, people. I implore you to consider Hado. If I’m wrong (post hanging), I’ll gladly STFU for a while and reconsider my options… but as I say, a clear picture is forming in my mind.

(sorry for incoherence; busy in work, and that was off the cuff. Also, YOU try conveying Ni concepts with concision without the luxury of time ;/)
 

Urakro

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Besides, part of the town read on you is the precedent you set by having posted so much. If you went quiet, that unspoken promise is no longer worth anything, and thus our confidence in you diminishes.
I'm sorry, me no understand. How is it my posts in Day 1 'change' from innocent to bad by me not posting on this day?
 

Hadoblado

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@Pmj
How long did you spend researching and making that post? You referenced particular post numbers, so I'm assuming you at least did some reading? But you also said you had no time. Did you memorise the post numbers from your first read?

How much mafia have you played? You just said RB knows you're inexperienced and therefore unlikely to be a threat. How inexperienced are you exactly? Because this is most people's first or second game.
 

Hadoblado

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@Urakro
Part of the reason people read people that post lots as green, is that, while they may have not got a green read yet, if the trajectory stays constant they trust themselves to be able to read that person red or green. If that person then opts not to post, they no longer have that particular reasoning applied to them.
 

PmjPmj

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@Pmj
How long did you spend researching and making that post? You referenced particular post numbers, so I'm assuming you at least did some reading? But you also said you had no time. Did you memorise the post numbers from your first read?

How much mafia have you played? You just said RB knows you're inexperienced and therefore unlikely to be a threat. How inexperienced are you exactly? Because this is most people's first or second game.
I did some research into you on Friday and made notes (oh, I am so on to you ;)) and wanted to make a case later that evening, but ended up being legitimately busy over the weekend. A cursory glance on Sunday evening (too late to post; day was over) I had showed me that you weren't on anyone's radar. That irked me, because to me, you're fucking obvious.

I've played mafia (well, werewolf - ha) once or twice. But, again, that was about a decade ago and on a forum with far less intelligent individuals, so it was a completely different ball game.

Sorry mate. Nothing you say or do will change how I perceive you. As far as I'm concerned, you're a mafia player. A cunning and slithery one - I'll give you that.

I'm not giving up. Until I am offed or people see the truth, I will be all over you like a rash.

:beatyou:
 

Sinny91

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I'm a bit pissed off, really. I know I'll have to substantiate these claims at one point or another (or maybe I won't; that's entirely my prerogative) but right now, this is the impression I get:

Hado (Vote Hadoblado - I'm nothing if not consistent) is to my mind a Mafia player. To me, the way he started the game (#10 "conspicuous silence"; #21 "Lurk > ??? Town win!!" - plus other mentions of lurking) smacked of someone who was unsure of how to proceed. Not uncommon for a new mafia player.

His proclamation of a town victory being desirable reeks of a cover tactic. Either he’s a really bad town (unlikely) or he’s being a bit full on to obfuscate the truth - he’s a Mafia.

By #36 he comes out swinging with bold assertions such as “If you vote for yourself, I vote for you” etc. Well, isn’t that a wonderful way to actually announce, right under your fucking noses that he’s going to get a cheeky vote in (which would potentially tip the scales) for someone who would very likely be a town player. Maybe. I admit that’s speculative at best, but think about it.

At some point or another, he asked one of the Cheese people to change their avatar for “The town’s benefit”. Again with this positioning. Nobody knows that this guy is a townie. Nobody. We have no data, and yet here he is parading around like he fucking owns the place, dictating to people.

I call him out on his bullshit, and it’s politely ignored - not just by Hado, but by the other people I suspect:

FOS Redbaron - yeah, he’s defended me but:

He’d know I’m a town if he’s a mafia git
He knows I’m inexperienced and therefore very unlikely to be a threat

He rocks up and proposes the odd argument, but I dunno. Something fishy going on there.

FOS Gopher - you talk too much, and I’m willing to bet it’s a smokescreen. Y’all playing off one another, creating a lot of noise. A clear picture is - in my mind at least - forming here.

Hado himself - whilst not acknowledging my post - did back down for a short while after I posted. If not to alleviate suspicions and fly under the radar for a bit, then what? I think he wanted to avoid the hounds picking up on his scent further.

I’m still trying to get a read on bug w/ tits person, and also Sinny. Speaking of which - WTF, Sinny? Two hours or so researching aliens? Whilst I have certainly done that in the past, sending a couple of brief PMs to you does not constitute two hours of research. Let’s not also forget that I announced my suspicious before I bunked off the game to do some RL shit.

Let’s cut to the chase - open your fucking eyes, people. I implore you to consider Hado. If I’m wrong (post hanging), I’ll gladly STFU for a while and reconsider my options… but as I say, a clear picture is forming in my mind.

(sorry for incoherence; busy in work, and that was off the cuff. Also, YOU try conveying Ni concepts with concision without the luxury of time ;/)

Haha, well, well, well mr PMJ, finally decided to catch up with us!
Well, not per se, idk what you were doing on your end of the screen.. I just know, that you weren't contributing to mafia whilst you were online :p

But I'm glad you're mad and have come in swinging, if there's one thing you've just done, it's convince me that you're Town, lol.

Welcome aboard.
 

Hadoblado

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Helvete's complete filter (I think)

Why does no defense from goph or jenny (who was voted for before zerk even knew her role) make you suspicious of cheeseum? I mean, it probably is just badly phrased and not what you meant at all?
Yeah jenny mentioned coffee but she's also sleeping, which I see as counterproductive.

Maybe coffee is good to keep handy but you should also use other helpers such as ritalin, methamphetamine, cocaine etc.
Creating confusion, trying to look like town.

Can you ramble sensibly. What do you think of zerks stance on lynching?
In a partial defense for Urk, I wouldn't find is posts too suspicious so far, confusing as it seems. It seems similar to how Cheeseums was forever just speaking his mind last game sounding out ideas, as he was unsure how the game was supposed to be played. It's still the very early stages and every other game I've seen is just shit posts for the first few pages, it seems like a genuine attempt at kicking things off. That said, I do want to see an explanation from his mouth, I wouldn't want some cheap trick early bird meta let him gain town points so early and easily.
Anything to appear town is it hado? :D
I'm going to bed, I have to do real life tomorrow. In the meantime I've noticed Happy is still online and lurking probably. Not really helping town of sorts anyway.

As I still want answers:

Vote Happy
I'v just skim read the thread and will come back with more in a while.



Isn't asking people questions part of generating content? I didn't have long last night as I had to work and will be busier now that I have commitments. Last game I was obviously town and got nk'd sure. But I didn't really know what the best approach was and just tried focusing on inconsistencies and proving my townliness. Better I was Nk'd last game than hado the cop.





Ok thanks for the clarification.

Unvote Happy
I would like to know why you are holding back the gopher case hado and your other read? I would like to believe it's not just so you can backpedal later.
Hado why are you so against lynching bronto today? I would much rather mislynch inactive town than mislynch active town. If they are scum then it forces them to participate and offer more content to slip up on.
I dislike the idea of posting and using suspicion lists this early on* as it allows mafia to clearly see which people are suspicious of who and can easily manipulate that their own advantage. What do you think about this Gopher?

*if at all

Sinny, I want to know why hado is so suspicious to you? He has suspicions and has made gopher talk a lot which can only be a good thing. Yes it is early but is that only more reason to tunnel people? We are currently at a huge disadvantage as there is little information and mafia know pretty much everything. Saying tunneling is unnecessary makes absolutely no sense as the longer we procrastinate with spilling info the easier we make it for mafia to win.

Why does your dislike to hado's play style weigh him closer to mafia above other users?

Why exactly is RB smeared by hado's association? They like, have literally nothing to do with each other. The roles are randomly generated.

Why are you reading people based on your preference to them?

It's good to rely on intuition but you can't use it as a basis for all your convictions (@everypeoplehere) as it's such an easy cop out ruse for mafia to use so they look like scum hunting town.

Give me reason not to vote for you sinny.
How is it basically a no lynch? It prevents scum from easily slipping through without having to lift a finger like artsu. I understood what you meant about bronto and I was asking more generally, sorry I could of phrased it better to begin with.
I still don't really get this though. Yes we'll have more information to work from after a mis lynch, which will most likely happen at this stage. We gain a slight information advantage at the cost of an active town and are still left with the problem of potential lurking scum.

I doubt we'll manage to lynch scum D1 (I really want this to get proved otherwise) and think a cop read on an inactive would be a waste. You checked Puffy for a potential ally and got lucky, we need this kind of information at this point and rather than finding out by mis lynch we can learn by more forgiving methods.

I also disagree with your read on bronto btw. I doubt his alignment would change his opinion on whether he'd want to play or not. Even if it were just to toll I'm sure he'd do that regardless.
I have no idea, both would be fine. Although at least pmj has said he will post more. What about jenny though, if there is no replacement (the game took long enough to kick off to begin with so I'll be surprised if there is) don't you think she'll just turn into another lurker?
I would like to know Sinny's stance on this?
Bearing in mind you gave her a town read last game too, what do you see that is different in her play from last game to this game?
Yeah it's perfectly plausible so I just want to look for the differences in play. I have some ideas but would like some things answered first :P
I'm going out for a while and may comment later before bed, if not then the weekend.
OK so funny thing right, I come home and there's a 90's rock party going on to night club levels of activity. I was going to answer everything now but no WiFi in my room (using data) and didn't feel like sitting in the corner of a dark room...
By RBs reasoning I'm scum right? :D
I got content and its coming tomorrow morning I promise. So until then, happy scum hunting! :)
Ok so first of all I want to apologize for my unnecessary post last night, I just couldn't resist...
There's been a fair few posts since and I'm not sure of all the exact questions you guys want answering, but these stood out to me so I'll address them and add my own thoughts in general.



I don't know why you are inferring I think you are scum. You were tunneled earlier and I'm fairly happy with the way you answered. The main issue being your meta in such a noob game as others have pointed out. I'll be interested to see hado's case later as he knows you much better and I'm sure I'm missing a lot.

I don't actually have any scum reads. This game is a huge learning curve for me and I've been purposely holding back so far to allow me to gain a lot without exposing myself too much. I have been trying my best to figure out who is most likely to be town; if I can deduce the most likely to be town then by process of elimination I am left with a few names which are more likely to be scum. This is day 1, it is unlikely for scum to slip up. All scum have to do is not look like scum to blend in with town if people are focusing too much on finding the scum. I am not seeing scum so I am trying to look at it the other way, to find most likely scum.

For instance knowing that I am town, I don't really know a thing and have been reluctant to make judgments. A scum Helvete would have probably tried to form some kind of accusations against someone based off others suspicions to make it look like I'm not trying to hide so much. I have let myself slip (admittedly a little too far). A scum Helvete wouldn't of slipped like this.

I have also been looking for inconsistent behavior from the players who played previously. Zerkalo's stands out to me as she is being more active, questioning more things and generally being more ballsy. It occurred to be that if she rolled scum this time it would be unlikely she would play the same as last game and this game she seems to be playing fairly pro town. I'm finding this very hard to read. She said the vote for urakro was to test for others reactions. Now she has voted for me in a similar way (hit and run) but has said she's posting a case later. This is cool, I can see more reason to make a case for me and it seems like a more reasonable vote based on the way I'm being perceived.

I found Sinny's list really strange and fairly baseless. She is more chill this game but still isn't really giving a lot and really didn't offer anything much after I asked about it. I would really like to see more reasoning behind what she's thinking as right now I'm struggling to pin her as town and I want to.

I have a pool of 5 players I have deduced are most likely scum. I still think targeting a lurker isn't such a bad idea. We take out useless town at worst, mafia at best. We still get everyone's voting patterns and d1 interactions to look back to, a cop check and a night kill which is a huge facet of valuable information. I think for the payoff it's completely worth it compared to probably mis lynching an active town.

I'll review the thread again, and please ask away as I'm sure there were, or are more questions. I have the time today.



I look forward to seeing this, I hope it's not another social experiment :P
Why are these mutually exclusive?

You make a lot of stuff just about yourself, you also assume everyone has you as their top scum read and post a lot of stuff where it's not instantly obvious what you mean. It's not hard to see why this is misleading, the ambiguity is always leaving you an exit and it's on us for not understanding everything exactly how you meant.
His answer is in RB's quote in the post, it won't even show up when he quotes it. It is actually frustrating as hell :P
I know it was directed at RB, the question just made no sense to me. It also seemed like you pretty much assumed everyone has you as a top scum read just because hado and rb have you as their top scum read. While I obviously want to hear their reasoning and will take it into account, I can't take their word for it. For the same reasons I couldn't trust rb and hado last game when they're were saying how confident they were of each other as being town, it looked way too suspicious to just take their word for it.

But when you ask stuff that clearly makes no sense it doesn't help your case in clearing yourself from being scum.
Lol just make your post on me already and change the subject
I'm playing cautious, my mafia reads were way off last game.



Pls show me how I've influenced lists?

Why is the lurker lynch weird? Also bronto isn't the only lurker dispite what the others say. Happy is very red right now.
I'll elaborate more tomorrow, I'm posting as I can't sleep...
Zerk, I never asked for a lynch on bronto, you're twisting my words. I asked hado why a lynch on bronto was bad because hado specifically said lyching bronto would be bad. There was a distinction between bronto and the other lurkers made which I wanted to clarify.

(I'll finish reading the rest of the thread now)
Urak asked how my job went earlier (can't remember where). It went well but isn't the most socially enabling work and often have to work during inconvenient times.
I was free for hours yesterday and then no one said anything until I was busy again...

Happy is my biggest suspicion as of now, as he offered absolutely nothing except for saying he was commuting with low battery and that he would post later, which he didn't. This was a day ago, still nothing. I know he is busy but this is just avoidant and really needs to be addressed as it just seems like smoke in the mirror atm. I would be happy for either a lynch here or bronto to get rid of lurkers. Zerk already pointed out bronto will probably get mod killed so I would prefer to send a vote on Happy.

Zerks main point on me is trying to lynch bronto out of the inactives, which I just pointed out simply isn't true and is a misunderstanding of what had been conversed between hado and I. I wanted to know hado's reasoning on why a lynch on bronto in particular would be bad. He gave an answer, which I actually disagreed with for the most part, but left anyway as most of it didn't matter that much at the time. Any lurker lynch for me would have been good.

It's good cheeseum found a replacement and here Blarraun comes waltzing in pointing fingers at Urak and I with little more than just fuzzy logic. He pointed out two dynamics and just said out of the two groups we would be the most likely scum, why?
Are we the most convenient candidates out of the two groups? I can see why a scum blarr would jumble the numbers to show why I would look scummy and send a vote my way. The Zerk rolling scum twice has been addressed, it's perfectly plausible and shouldn't be dismissed as unlikely, because it is just as likely. I don't know how alignment would affect jenny's play when you consider her outside game pressures and dislike reaching for those straws.

Why is Urak a likely scum candidate? This I really want explained as others have expressed.
This is a fair point. At the time you were busy defending yourself with the only other actives being hado rb and urak, who were all pretty busy. I don't really have issue with any of you. rb's case on you fell apart. you and hado are keeping your cases until later and I have a town read on urak. I wanted to just follow the events as they transpired as I'm not reading you guys as scum.
EPWOB out of all you guys who were active in that time I'm finding hado the most suspicious because he is spending all his time building a case on you gopher and not actively hunting himself. I'm not sure what he's building it from exactly, he isn't saying and he's sure been dedicating a lot of time on this since very early on. This is his get out clause from participating from the current game as it stands. He has a lot of time for this, there is still the night period and D2, why is he using all this time and wasting D1 time in finding a better suited target for a lynch?
I'm sorry but I never understand any of your reasoning. A previous read surely gets re evaluated after new, potentially incriminating information comes up. Your initial perception is final. You don't add up and just seem to be holding off from any real reasoning. I've not understood like anything you've said and I find this horrible if you are really town.

I wont vote him because there's already a vote on him?! WHAT?
It's actually very clever if he is scum. It comes off as extremely pro town but simultaneously gives him an excuse not to actively participate. It's better than just brushing stuff off on outside commitments.
Zerkalo why shouldn't we lynch happy over me today?
So he should post what he has. He should be at least open enough to post a bare bones case to show, to prove he really is doing what he says he is doing, then he can elaborate later.

Hado prove to us you aren't just wasting our time
@Hado, thanks for the explanation but what's wrong with gophers suggestion or a simplified version or even just posting half and sitting on the other for the start of D2. if you got NK'd it would only prove you correct so we could hunt gopher. actually if gopher is green mafia would nk you anyway to make gopher a target, yeah alright fucking wifom...

What are peoples thoughts on pmj? it's early wee morning hours uk time so it's pretty unlikely we'll hear anything in time.
I want zerk to answer my question on me over happy.
I'm not really sure on pmj, I have a neutral read on him so far and want to hear more. I think it would be better pursued D2. I think he would be a good candidate for a cop check.
Is the best way to filter by going on the total posts link then clicking individually on the players list of posts? Or is there a simpler way?
urrgh fine. It was pretty clear I was doing this, I just hadn't done it yet.

Vote Happy
No I was asking for an updated opinion based on what I've said since.



I'm being active to try and alleviate my suspicions, I know I'm suspicious. What am I being avoidant about?
I've been answering the questions thrown at me. When I'm asking questions I'm not trying to deflect attention from myself but bringing up other things which I do think need addressing.

Yes Uruk has time to build a case and lynch me but this doesn't have much to do with my second point. I didn't understand Sinny's reasoning and found it absurd. It's like she's defending me from an old read and I wanted to point this out and have it explained.
So question me about specifics. Just saying I've shown varying degrees of town and that it isn't clear the whole time what about so I'm the best option out of a limited choice is pretty weak. Grill me, don't just vote me because you've given up or can't be bothered.
Ok so this makes a bit more sense. But remember that editing isn't allowed :P
Urak are you talking about "all Hado has offered is a conspicuous silence, indicating that Sinny is either right or wrong."

Taken from a very clear lol post. It didn't mean anything and lead to nothing.
OK so what's your view? Because I just don't see it as very pro town taking in the context of the game.
Directed at urak
I have asked her and she has ignored me and then come out with her latest shit about happy as lynch bait. But right now we need a lynch and if Happy flips red we have a very strong connection to zerk.
You still said you would prefer a lynch on me which paints the portrait of mafia no matter how ambiguous you phrased things. I am treating the situation like I am in the worst light because really, I have nothing to hide. I know how it's looking for me and it's pointless to pretend otherwise, I just want to try and prove that I am in fact town.
that was the point you re hashed a couple of times, regardless of whether it was your weakest or not which is why I said it was your main point.
"-what i dont like about helvete is that so far he comes across as very null and im inclined to write that off as a scum-leaning read
-says he doesnt like people posting their lists, as mafia could take advantage, but is also responsible(sometimes directly, sometimes indirectly) for the pressure that made most players so far produce their lists
-if you look through helvete's filter it's very difficult to even come up with questions because he has generated no input himself so far. i think it's quite abnormal for town to not openly express distrust towards atleast one player. all he's done so far that comes close to that is exerting very soft pressure on happy in like...the first few posts
-also helvete prefers a lurker mislynch rather than an active mislynch...which i find weird becuase, save for bronto, i think everyone's shown readiness to get involved. i dont think we need to worry about bronto, QT will get him modkilled or replaced if he remains inactive. but other than bronto, everyone expressed readiness to answer other people's questions when theyre free...i guess this is a very weak point but just putting it out there"



You ignored this post (it was hasty and wasn't thought out or well written but I wanted some light on this)

Please tell me how I influenced others to post their lists and ask me to explain anything I didn't make clear.
Zerk I may have missed to context of the last point after you explained it so whatever. I had a fair bit to read when I awoke. So if you could just see to my previous post and what reluctantly and I were asking you about we're all good :)
What is strange about the way I'm defending myself? What does it look like to you?
 

Urakro

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@Urakro
Part of the reason people read people that post lots as green, is that, while they may have not got a green read yet, if the trajectory stays constant they trust themselves to be able to read that person red or green. If that person then opts not to post, they no longer have that particular reasoning applied to them.
Alrighty, no probs.

Though because I hardly know exactly which side you're on, I want to ask you a question, but don't want to be met with OMGUS arguments back.

Similar to what I asked zerk, what did you learn from the last game, and how were you planning on applying it to this game?
 

PmjPmj

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Also, pelase note:

To those who also suspect / vote Hado (when you eventually catch up...): I will be watching you like a fucking hawk. If you vote for him and flip-flop at the last minute, I will rain hellfire down on you.

Obviously you must arrive at this conclusion independently, but I'd ask that you at least investigate for yourself.

Ta.
 

Hadoblado

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Okay PMJ

Well at least you've got conviction now, which is the greenest aspect of anything you've done so far. So funnily enough I'm actually reducing my red read on you :S

Kinda awkward. Also when you vote me it needs to be red and bolded otherwise it doesn't count.

Continue to develop your case on me though, as is it's kinda weak. That's not smack talk. As you said, you didn't have much time and didn't explain it very well. If you actually believe I'm mafia you need to do more than what you've done.
 

Sinny91

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Okay, I'm unsure what to make of the NK too.

Yeah I actually love this Nk. I mean... in the sense that it's so out there mafia might have overplayed underplaying it in a sense.

Zerk was so against the lynch on Happy and with the Helvete NK it is an interesting dynamic contrast which will be amazing to look at no matter what side she's on. Most interesting is my two reads in Happy and Helvete were completely off.
meh, so Happy was Town. Well a shit Town then because he didn't even try to defend himself.

Still think Zerk is mafia. She didn't have a problem staying on Helvete when we all went on Happy. Why? I think she wasn't even fazed at the thought of Happy being mafia because she didn't even openly consider switching to Happy. And I'm willing to bet lynching Helvete is to make anyone double-guess voting her, because would she NK Helvete and make her look like a target if she's mafia?

I know, I know, if she's not mafia, that's what the mafia would do to get us to go after Zerk anyway, which is why it's the perfect play for getting us off Zerk.
Hardly, though it may seem that way. If Zerk wasn't mafia, there'd be no reason for mafia to NK Helvete. Reason being, mafia thrive on confusion and taking out someone vague like Pmj would have been a much better move. But no, Helvete was removed as if to make a perfect move that would steer away from Zerk. Nice try.
But I do think Zerk was saying weird things just before EOD1.

I think there was a whole Zer, Reluctantly, Helvete dynamic going on, I just have no idea bout the nature of the dynamic.
 

PmjPmj

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Okay PMJ

Well at least you've got conviction now, which is the greenest aspect of anything you've done so far. So funnily enough I'm actually reducing my red read on you :S

Kinda awkward. Also when you vote me it needs to be red and bolded otherwise it doesn't count.

Continue to develop your case on me though, as is it's kinda weak. That's not smack talk. As you said, you didn't have much time and didn't explain it very well. If you actually believe I'm mafia you need to do more than what you've done.
Thanks for the voting tip.

VOTE HADO

According to you, I need to develop my argument and build a case. More bullshit. I don't need to do anything right now. I want other people to read your posts and come back to me with their thoughts. I have highlighted with reasonable clarity why I think you are suspicious, and I'm operating on the same amount of data (limited) that everyone else is.

Thus, stop blowing smoke up my ass. Your attempts to cast doubts over my perceptions are weak, and obvious.

:beatyou:
 

PmjPmj

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Also, stop sidling up to me. Defend yourself or sit the fuck down. The only thing 'awkward' here is your own realisation that you're slowly being backed into a corner.

:rip:
 

Hadoblado

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Urakro I don't OMGUS. Not if I can help it anyway. I'm human, so it does change the way I see things when I'm attacked, but I fight the instinct to OMGUS with every fiber of my being. Look at last game where Sinny was up in my grill the entire time and I still elevated her to confirmed town. Look at just now with PMJ. Look at how I'm coordinating with Gopher about his impending counter-case.

It's a bad read to think I'd flip OMGUS on you. But this is a very good question.

What did I learn from last game?
1) Don't make Sinny mad.
2) Don't put all your eggs in your own basket, as this prohibits new townies from finding their feet.
3) I was dead wrong about ESC, and I need to make room in the way I perceive reads to allow for people such as ESC to be town. I still don't know how to find that tell.
4) The 'quiet' areas on my radar need to have more suspicion placed on them by me. None of the three actual mafia that game drew my genuine attention. Sure I nailed at puffy because I had a cop read on him, but prior to that read I wasn't as sure on his read as much as say, Cheeseum or ESC for example.
5) Contrary to how I function in almost every other aspect of life, in mafia, I'm apparently high charisma and low wis.

There's other smaller things, like specific aspects of people etc., but they're mine to keep.

How was I intending on applying it to this game? Well, you've read my explanation of my intended lurker gambit. I wanted to do more thinking and less bullying.
 

Sinny91

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About Hado & Gopher.

Man. You guys are making me doubt my protown reads on you, simply because your bloody cases are such a fucking ball ache. eye ball ache. Is there any need? Be succinct, you might think you're epic-ly efficient, using so many bloody words.. But in my books it's anything but. You shouldn't need so many words to convey your meaning/message. You're messages should be very clear and simple...

People who talk too much, tend to talk bollox, in my experience. You say you don't want to cause a scene or a distraction, but even your conversation about not being a distraction is a distraction.

I probably won't even read the majority of your cases. Your wasting my time. I'll follow my gut with you two, and on your heads be it!!
 

Sinny91

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Urakro I don't OMGUS. Not if I can help it anyway. I'm human, so it does change the way I see things when I'm attacked, but I fight the instinct to OMGUS with every fiber of my being. Look at last game where Sinny was up in my grill the entire time and I still elevated her to confirmed town.
Your ego is just.. something else.

I'd love to get to know you irl, to see if it's justified.
 

PmjPmj

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About Hado & Gopher. Man. You guys are making me doubt my protown reads on you, simply because your bloody cases are such a fucking ball ache. eye ball ache. Is there any need? Be succinct, you might think you're epic-ly efficient, using so many bloody words.. But in my books it's anything but. You shouldn't need so many words to convey your meaning/message. You're messages should be very clear and simple...

People who talk too much, tend to talk bollox, in my experience. You say you don't want to cause a scene or a distraction, but even your conversation about not being a distraction is a distraction. !
*nods*

Also, I am absolutely stealing "eye ball ache".

:ahh:
 

Hadoblado

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@PMJ
No, atm you're all bluster. As both town and scum, I would not bother with a case this weak. I understand that Gopher's about to drop a case on me. I don't know what he's going to pull, but I'm putting money on it being a lot stronger than yours.

I can see some players arrayed against me, but I'm not yet willing to give up what I see as productive, in favour of something I'm not convinced is a threat. There are people yelling at me, but they've forgotten their pitchforks. These arguments are weak. Ask Gopher, who apparently agrees with your conclusion, but I'm banking does not mirror your reasoning. Ask ika when they show up.

You admitted they were weak here:
(sorry for incoherence; busy in work, and that was off the cuff. Also, YOU try conveying Ni concepts with concision without the luxury of time ;/)
Okay weak is not the words you used, but you said it wasn't coherent. It's a Ni concept (pure intuition), and yet you haven't tried to properly explain it. When I had a complex case I posted multiple thousands of words trying to make it clear. Now, instead of improving the case you have admitted is incoherent, you're talking shit with me.

It doesn't seem like you really want to hang me good sir. Get to work.
 

Reluctantly

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Urakro I don't OMGUS. Not if I can help it anyway. I'm human, so it does change the way I see things when I'm attacked, but I fight the instinct to OMGUS with every fiber of my being. Look at last game where Sinny was up in my grill the entire time and I still elevated her to confirmed town. Look at just now with PMJ. Look at how I'm coordinating with Gopher about his impending counter-case.

It's a bad read to think I'd flip OMGUS on you. But this is a very good question.

What did I learn from last game?
1) Don't make Sinny mad.
2) Don't put all your eggs in your own basket, as this prohibits new townies from finding their feet.
3) I was dead wrong about ESC, and I need to make room in the way I perceive reads to allow for people such as ESC to be town. I still don't know how to find that tell.
4) The 'quiet' areas on my radar need to have more suspicion placed on them by me. None of the three actual mafia that game drew my genuine attention. Sure I nailed at puffy because I had a cop read on him, but prior to that read I wasn't as sure on his read as much as say, Cheeseum or ESC for example.
5) Contrary to how I function in almost every other aspect of life, in mafia, I'm apparently high charisma and low wis.

There's other smaller things, like specific aspects of people etc., but they're mine to keep.

How was I intending on applying it to this game? Well, you've read my explanation of my intended lurker gambit. I wanted to do more thinking and less bullying.
It's incredible how you say so little with so much. No one cares about last game, lol. ESC and a lot of the original players aren't here, people have different roles, it's a different game. Posting too much is also suspicious. Sinny is right, be concise. Your case on Gopher is hard to follow and you rely on us trusting you to read him. Ridiculous, well unless you were mafia, then you would expect people to just trust you. Maybe.

Anyway, if you want to participate, who are you suspicious of other than Gopher? Forget Gopher; why do you focus on him above all the other players? Why is Zerk not even questioned to you? You've got to see more than just Gopher right now or yes, I think you have severe mafia tunnel vision. And not the whole game isn't a WIFOM other than your Gopher read, just in case you pull another "your argument is weak for mafia or town".
 

Hadoblado

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Sinny

Ideas are not designed to be conveyed. I didn't want to write thousands of words, but the complexity of the thing I was trying to convey demanded it.

As for gopher, that's his meta. If he doesn't shitpost all day he won't survive the early stages.

If you think that I'm deliberately making things wordier than they need to be, I invite you to say what I'm saying with less words without sacrificing acuity. I'm sure there's a lot of inefficiency, but it's not like I'm payed by the word.

Actually I don't invite you to do that because it's a waste of time.

^I take your point :D
 

PmjPmj

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@PMJ
No, atm you're all bluster. As both town and scum, I would not bother with a case this weak. I understand that Gopher's about to drop a case on me. I don't know what he's going to pull, but I'm putting money on it being a lot stronger than yours.

I can see some players arrayed against me, but I'm not yet willing to give up what I see as productive, in favour of something I'm not convinced is a threat. There are people yelling at me, but they've forgotten their pitchforks. These arguments are weak. Ask Gopher, who apparently agrees with your conclusion, but I'm banking does not mirror your reasoning. Ask ika when they show up.

You admitted they were weak here:


Okay weak is not the words you used, but you said it wasn't coherent. It's a Ni concept (pure intuition), and yet you haven't tried to properly explain it. When I had a complex case I posted multiple thousands of words trying to make it clear. Now, instead of improving the case you have admitted is incoherent, you're talking shit with me.

It doesn't seem like you really want to hang me good sir. Get to work.
And thus began the dick-swinging contest.

I've pointed people in the right direction. Early on in the game I called you out. I'm banking on someone making a better case for you. If they don't, I'll have to step it up.

You aren't even denying anything. You're hiding behind this transparent defence of "Ner ner! Not enough evidence! Not enough to go on! Can't catch me!". Let's let other people decide whether or not my case is worth a second look, and whether it deserves further fleshing out. Right now, I couldn't give a flying shit what you say. Even the way you call the mafia "scum", as if to create a void between them and yourself, trying to convey your '''''disgust''''' for them.

You're all hot air and bullshit, and soon it'll all come tumbling down around you.

Your defence is weak; your behaviour is condemning. Deal with it.
 

Reluctantly

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Alright, I'm going to address Pmj's Hado case so Hado doesn't get to toss it all away,

Hado (Vote Hadoblado - I'm nothing if not consistent) is to my mind a Mafia player. To me, the way he started the game (#10 "conspicuous silence"; #21 "Lurk > ??? Town win!!" - plus other mentions of lurking) smacked of someone who was unsure of how to proceed. Not uncommon for a new mafia player.

His proclamation of a town victory being desirable reeks of a cover tactic. Either he’s a really bad town (unlikely) or he’s being a bit full on to obfuscate the truth - he’s a Mafia.

By #36 he comes out swinging with bold assertions such as “If you vote for yourself, I vote for you” etc. Well, isn’t that a wonderful way to actually announce, right under your fucking noses that he’s going to get a cheeky vote in (which would potentially tip the scales) for someone who would very likely be a town player. Maybe. I admit that’s speculative at best, but think about it.

At some point or another, he asked one of the Cheese people to change their avatar for “The town’s benefit”. Again with this positioning. Nobody knows that this guy is a townie. Nobody. We have no data, and yet here he is parading around like he fucking owns the place, dictating to people.
Although this isn't a conclusive argument (as is the nature of the game) it does suggest Hado is trying too hard to appear Town. I mean, hey, that's what mafia do right? Town people don't really need to try and appear anything; they just need to participate.

So no it's not a strong argument imo, but it's definitely not weak either.
 

Hadoblado

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Reluctantly I was specifically asked a question by urakro. Obviously someone cared.

Does nobody fucking care why Helvete died? I'm being attacked by three people, while answering questions from a fourth, and awaiting a case from a fifth. You wonder why I post so much? Because you people demand it. If I didn't respond you'd think me being scummy, just like PMJ did when I didn't respond to his case day one.

If I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't, honestly you people can go fuck yourselves.

Gopher and I specifically made room for you guys to talk here. Gopher wanted less time, I wanted more. For you people to talk. Without us. PMJ came in and got all up in my face about me not responding. WHAT THE FUCK AM I SUPPOSED TO DO?
 

redbaron

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Day 1 vote analysis:

QuickTwist said:
OFFICIAL VOTE COUNT:

Players
1. PmjPmj - 0
2. Reluctantly - 0
3.Helvete - 1, zerkalo
4. Breadbaron - 0
5. hadototheMtotheothertothemotherfuckingblado - 1, PmjPmj
6. Jennywocky - 0
7. Bronto (The Shadow Cart) - 0
8. Sinny 91 - 0
9. The Gopher - 1, Happy
10. Rook Cheeseumpuffs - 0
11. Happy - 7, Jennywocky, Gopher, Sinny, Helvete, Urakro, Reluctantly, Hadoblado
12. zerkalo - 0
13. Urakro - 0

Not Voting: Bronto, Redbaron, Rook

Happy HAS BEEN LYNCHED! HE WAS:

VANILLA TOWNIE.
I actually voted Happy to make sure the lynch went through, as per Gopher's suggestion, so it's 8 on Happy.

Out of these, the ones who I was suspicious of on Day 1 were Sinny, Helvete and Gopher. Helvete's conftown now. Sinny and Gopher are not.

I eased up on the Gopher case because I remember after Game 1, going back and seeing just how and what ESC had done that could have tipped me off to him being town and stopped my tunnel. Amid his endless inconsistencies, there's at least method and a style not outside of his personality. On top of that, there wasn't any evidence of ESC voting in a townie lynching.

As far as I'm concerned, 3 strikes (of the good kind) meant that while it still would have been really hard for me to ignore a lot of the potentially scummy shit he was putting out - I could have gone for better targets. I let myself get distracted by town and despite the fact I had 2 other people correctly predicted as mafia, I stopped pressuring them. At that point if by Day 3 he still hadn't even voted, well fuck it - because that actually is just really scummy. He didn't do that though.

Any-fucking-way my point is that neither Gopher nor Sinny exhibit these good strikes. And this isn't about comparison to the last game either, that's just the only mafia game I've played so I don't talk about my 'experience' I just reference the last game. These are general behaviours that in conjunction point to scumminess.

But now, Gopher - how much am I supposed to let slip by on the basis that your meta-game is to have an inconsistent persona and not make any real headway. Why should anyone be expected to legitimately spend an entire game struggling to read you, with you doing little to nothing in the way of making clear and concise posts?

The weirdest shit ever for me, was this: Gopher starts calling out Sinny for being inconsistent, then Sinny calls Gopher town.

?

How does that even work. Sinny? I've been avoiding you Day 1 because I wanted to not start an argument at a point in the game where we have zero information and it could all just be pointless, but how does this make sense? If you're Town, how does being called inconsistent and potentially scummy make you think someone is actually Town? it's out of character with everything you've done before and shit, everything I know about your personality: when someone calls you scummy, you call them scum right back. You do this everywhere on the forum, but in this particular thread you're suddenly unsure of yourself.

To add to that, I can buy this bus. I'm not going to speculate before ONE of them flips red but there's another peculiar thing about this:

If you look at the actual voting order on QuickTwist's post, you see that right after Gopher votes Happy - Sinny UNVOTES Bronto. How fucking obvious a mafia ploy is this?

Gopher is taking the lurker route of targeting, and Sinny is taking cues from the experienced player. If Sinny were mafia, she'd have no problem following Gopher's lead based on their personalities and Sinny's not exactly the type to fuck around and be non-obvious about her intentions.

Gopher: you're massively inconsistent, all I read from you is WIFOM and to put it in your own words: if you really were red, you wouldn't read as red. Yeah, you'd just read as one big case of mentally disarming fucking nothing. Despite being the most active poster in the thread, you're giving me sweet fuck-all.

Which is why I used the votes last game to cut through the bullshit - voting patterns don't lie. Lynches are a massively chaotic point in the game, and it's one where mafia are completely exposed. If they go for a no-lynch, it's dead-fucking-obvious that they're playing against town (or a lurker - which you weren't), so they're forced to vote and they're forced to make sure that the lynch hits Town - all shit that you have for sure done.

Plus, on Day 1 without the luxury of having fleshed out strategy - it's the best time to catch mafia acting in unison out of confusion as to what they really should be doing. They've got the choice of contradicting their buddies unplanned, or going along with them.

Voting patterns are exactly how I cut through the bullshit and nailed both Zerkalo AND Puffy at the very start of Day 2 - so in this area of the game I'm confident. They gave some very small but not really telling reads on Day 1, but the voting just gives that shit away. It ties all the little inconsistencies together, where my incorrect reads of Ruminator and ESC didn't - neither of them voted Town.

Both of you are doing all of the shit that tells me you're scum.

Vote Gopher

 

Sinny91

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Sinny

Ideas are not designed to be conveyed. I didn't want to write thousands of words, but the complexity of the thing I was trying to convey demanded it.
Must be a conspiracy theory if you're having to go into so much perceived multilayered complexity.

:ninjahidewhite

:rolleyes:
 

Reluctantly

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As for gopher, that's his meta. If he doesn't shitpost all day he won't survive the early stages.
Again, you're expecting us to trust you. Why should we?

Reluctantly I was specifically asked a question by urakro. Obviously someone cared.

Does nobody fucking care why Helvete died? I'm being attacked by three people, while answering questions from a fourth, and awaiting a case from a fifth. You wonder why I post so much? Because you people demand it. If I didn't respond you'd think me being scummy, just like PMJ did when I didn't respond to his case day one.

If I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't, honestly you people can go fuck yourselves.

Gopher and I specifically made room for you guys to talk here. Gopher wanted less time, I wanted more. For you people to talk. Without us. PMJ came in and got all up in my face about me not responding. WHAT THE FUCK AM I SUPPOSED TO DO?
Throwing a tantrum doesn't help anything. It's not much different than NKing Helvete thinking it will throw me off Zerk. Problem is, there are better options as a Town player and yet you resort to this...
 

Reluctantly

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Does nobody fucking care why Helvete died? I'm being attacked by three people, while answering questions from a fourth, and awaiting a case from a fifth. You wonder why I post so much? Because you people demand it. If I didn't respond you'd think me being scummy, just like PMJ did when I didn't respond to his case day one.
It's funny how you're pushing so hard for us to talk about Helvete when there is so much more going on and we now know he's verified Town. What's the point? What do you expect to get out of it? Throwing mass amounts of details is strange.
 

Reluctantly

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By details I mean Hado's posting of all of Helvete's posts in one post with no point to reference him.
 

PmjPmj

Full of stars.
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So no it's not a strong argument imo, but it's definitely not weak either.
Can there be such a thing as a strong case on day 2? Unless someone has royally fucked up, I doubt it.

All I'm asking is that people look into Hado's posts / behaviour and decide for themselves. I've been calling bullshit on him since Thurs/Fri (can't remember which). I would like people to take a punt - to 'suck it and see' as it were, but perhaps not everybody will take issue with him the way I have.

Right, I have to attend a meeting now and then I have a lunch date, so I'm afk for a bit. At least you all know where I stand. My balls are very much exposed and swinging free.
 

redbaron

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I don't find that to be a scumtell Reluctantly. I've seen that done in many, many games. It's a way for people to see what Helvete had said and why he might get NK'd.

Yeah a point of reference helps but it's also really cumbersome and it's not like the post is unhelpful. I still don't buy a Hado + Gopher bus, and my own reasoning tells me Gopher is the active scum here, not Hado.
 

Hadoblado

think again losers
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Gopher if you're around can you please step in here? If you're town, and you suspect me, you've probably got decent reasons. But I cannot believe you'd agree with the reasons these people are putting up, and they're offering me no way to defend myself, because every defense is automatically hearsay to them.
- You have a heavy shitpost meta
- Talking about Helvete is a good idea
- People will talk about me regardless later once we've actually payed attention to the day 1 lynch+NK, so it's not as if I can possibly hope to avoid attention by pointing to Helvete anyway
- Reluctantly's reasoning is wifom whereby all things that could be interpretted as either red or green is being interpretted as red in order to align with her preconceptions, and this was true of her interpretation of the lynch and her attack on me now
- posting Helvetes filter was not a scum move since I was planning on going through it anyway, and it could only save town time. It wasn't a town move either, but it's not a mark against me.
- There is no way I can respond to this mob, since they both want me to stand up *and* rollover. I can't shut-up while also meeting my accuser's arguments.
 

Sinny91

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Day 1 vote analysis:

I actually voted Happy to make sure the lynch went through, as per Gopher's suggestion, so it's 8 on Happy. (Sinny: Are you sure you're not the one Bussing here? Jumped at the chance to vote, didn't you? )

Out of these, the ones who I was suspicious of on Day 1 were Sinny, Helvete and Gopher. Helvete's conftown now. Sinny and Gopher are not.

I eased up on the Gopher case because I remember after Game 1, going back and seeing just how and what ESC had done that could have tipped me off to him being town and stopped my tunnel. Amid his endless inconsistencies, (Sinny: Eyes was not inconsistant, you and Hado are just fucking deluded) there's at least method and a style not outside of his personality. (Sinny: The personality you knew so well, so well, that you were wrong about him and lynched him?!) On top of that, there wasn't any evidence of ESC voting in a townie lynching. (Sinny: Nor me, on purpose.. I thought we all agree'd we wanted a lynch on day one? No white knighting? So I DIDN't WHITE KNIGHT, durr!)

As far as I'm concerned, 3 strikes (of the good kind) meant that while it still would have been really hard for me to ignore a lot of the potentially scummy shit he was putting out - I could have gone for better targets. I let myself get distracted by town and despite the fact I had 2 other people correctly predicted as mafia, I stopped pressuring them. At that point if by Day 3 he still hadn't even voted, well fuck it - because that actually is just really scummy. He didn't do that though.

Any-fucking-way my point is that neither Gopher nor Sinny exhibit these good strikes. (Sinny: Not like you could read em anyway!) And this isn't about comparison to the last game either, that's just the only mafia game I've played so I don't talk about my 'experience' I just reference the last game. These are general behaviours that in conjunction point to scumminess.

But now, Gopher - how much am I supposed to let slip by on the basis that your meta-game is to have an inconsistent persona and not make any real headway. Why should anyone be expected to legitimately spend an entire game struggling to read you, with you doing little to nothing in the way of making clear and concise posts?

The weirdest shit ever for me, was this: Gopher starts calling out Sinny for being inconsistent, then Sinny calls Gopher town.

?

How does that even work. Sinny?

I've been avoiding you Day 1 because I wanted to not start an argument at a point in the game where we have zero information and it could all just be pointless, but how does this make sense? If you're Town, how does being called inconsistent and potentially scummy make you think someone is actually Town? it's out of character with everything you've done before and shit, everything I know about your personality: when someone calls you scummy, you call them scum right back. You do this everywhere on the forum, but in this particular thread you're suddenly unsure of yourself.

(Sinny: Basically that works because I'm a team player, and not a cunt. I was really under the weather, I was really feeling apathetic, and I was really cautious. But now I'm back with a bit of an umph! And I'm on my laptop by the way, can you notice the difference? I don't see how I can defend my previous apathy vibe, when it was pretty legit)

To add to that, I can buy this bus. I'm not going to speculate before ONE of them flips red but there's another peculiar thing about this:

If you look at the actual voting order on QuickTwist's post, you see that right after Gopher votes Happy - Sinny UNVOTES Bronto. How fucking obvious a mafia ploy is this?

(Sinny: Erm, I don't see how you came to that conclusion. All I can tell people is that Gopher gave me the initial idea to vote Bronto as I agreed Bronto was being shit. I unvoted him a bit later than I intended, but still in time to change my vote in line with the Town group lynch.. What more is there to say?

Gopher is taking the lurker route of targeting, and Sinny is taking cues from the experienced player. (Sinny: Sinny takes cue's from no one)


If Sinny were mafia, she'd have no problem following Gopher's lead based on their personalities and Sinny's not exactly the type to fuck around and be non-obvious about her intentions. (Sinny: You're thinking along the wrong line's is all I can tell you. If yo are Town, believe me, for Towns sake)

Gopher: you're massively inconsistent, all I read from you is WIFOM and to put it in your own words: if you really were red, you wouldn't read as red. Yeah, you'd just read as one big case of mentally disarming fucking nothing. Despite being the most active poster in the thread, you're giving me sweet fuck-all.

Which is why I used the votes last game to cut through the bullshit - voting patterns don't lie. Lynches are a massively chaotic point in the game, and it's one where mafia are completely exposed. If they go for a no-lynch, it's dead-fucking-obvious that they're playing against town (or a lurker - which you weren't), so they're forced to vote and they're forced to make sure that the lynch hits Town - all shit that you have for sure done.

Plus, on Day 1 without the luxury of having fleshed out strategy - it's the best time to catch mafia acting in unison out of confusion as to what they really should be doing. They've got the choice of contradicting their buddies unplanned, or going along with them.

Voting patterns are exactly how I cut through the bullshit and nailed both Zerkalo AND Puffy at the very start of Day 2 - so in this area of the game I'm confident. They gave some very small but not really telling reads on Day 1, but the voting just gives that shit away. It ties all the little inconsistencies together, where my incorrect reads of Ruminator and ESC didn't - neither of them voted Town.

Both of you are doing all of the shit that tells me you're scum.

Vote Gopher

I don't have much more to say right now, but I might do in a bit.
 

Hadoblado

think again losers
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I have thoughts RB, but I'm scared of treading on your toes. So if you want me to refrain from saying anything, say so. I can hold back a while, or just not say anything at all.
 
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