Forum Mafia Game #2

[Hadoblado]

In fact fuck that, I will refrain from saying anything, so don't reply. I'll pipe up later if this is still a thing.

 

[redbaron]

Sinny I swear to god if you don't even have suspicions of Gopher you're as scum as they come (I did a rhyme). Don't fucking OMGUS me and try make this into a thing about me.

Even with mistakes, in Game 1 I put effort into investigating 4 of my reads and I was right on 2/4. I like to think that with Ruminator basically fucking AFK that she's not even relevant, so on the 3 reads I made on actual active players I was correct on 2/3.

Voting patterns don't lie.

Also, what does this even mean?

(Sinny: Nor me, on purpose.. I thought we all agree'd we wanted a lynch on day one? No white knighting? So I DIDN't WHITE KNIGHT, durr!)

No shit, that's exactly my point? In Game 1 you didn't vote on a Townie lynch and you just staunchly and stubbornly held to your views. Now suddenly you're letting someone sway your votes - and better yet - you're not even suspicious of them for it?

Sinny agreeing with Gopher - okay I buy that.
Sinny agreeing with Gopher after he pushes us to lynch Town? Not. Fucking. Buying. It.

 

[redbaron]

I have thoughts RB, but I'm scared of treading on your toes. So if you want me to refrain from saying anything, say so. I can hold back a while, or just not say anything at all.

I don't want this game to be RB vs. the world again, so make points by all means. If you're just +1'ing me on Gopher then that's fine.

Also to be honest I didn't even read your Gopher case when I saw how long it was. Last game I was convinced to lynch Cheeseums and also to switch to ESC. I even made my point that the ESC-wagon smelled fishy as fuck on Day 2, but you seemed really fucking damn sure.

Cheeseums totally understandable, Day 1, have to start somewhere and he even self-voted so...whatever. But ESC could have been avoided - and I'll just outright admit I'm blatantly saying that from hindsight and that I was overall no better. It doesn't matter if I had the right reads if I didn't put my vote where my reads were, but I want to avoid that this game.

The thing is, even though I think you're Town - I know you relatively well and it's too easy for me to understand your intentions and therefore agree with your output. I need to have my filters unsullied to be able to play this game properly.

Also: I told you I'd never let you live it down that you switched me off of my Zerkalo tunnel and onto ESC, and I was being dead serious :^)

I will not stop tunneling my good reads just because someone else who I think is town also has good reads. Last game I had zero experience so I deferred to a more adept player, this game my experience is limited, but it's still verifiable evidence of my competence at reading people.

 

[Sinny91]

Sinny I swear to god if you don't even have suspicions of Gopher you're as scum as they come (I did a rhyme). Don't fucking OMGUS me and try make this into a thing about me.

Even with mistakes, in Game 1 I put effort into investigating 4 of my reads and I was right on 2/4. I like to think that with Ruminator basically fucking AFK that she's not even relevant, so on the 3 reads I made on actual active players I was correct on 2/3.

Voting patterns don't lie.

Also, what does this even mean?



No shit, that's exactly my point? In Game 1 you didn't vote on a Townie lynch and you just staunchly and stubbornly held to your views. Now suddenly you're letting someone sway your votes - and better yet - you're not even suspicious of them for it?

Sinny agreeing with Gopher - okay I buy that.
Sinny agreeing with Gopher after he pushes us to lynch Town? Not. Fucking. Buying. It.

Dude. Your over thinking this way to much.

The above quote means that on day one in the previous game I TRIED TO PREVENT A LYNCH.

But I entered this game, intending to help lynch on day one as per consensus. Ergo, I chose m targets with that objective in mind.

I wanted Bronto to talk, and as I was experiencing that particular thought Goph popped up saying VOTE BRONTO, and I was like 'hey yea, that's a good idea! Peer pressure on Bronto! ... Then a few pages later in transpired that Bronto is just not playing at all is was about to get modkilled, just as I was thinking my vote on Bronto would bea waste , Reluctantly pipes up to suggest the very same. A bit later, I stopped being lazy on my hone and lifted the Bronto vote.

I very cleary stated that I had to get a vote in prior to work, and zoned in on Helvete and Happy for being lurkers, explained that Helevete seemed more town to me, and so joined the Happy wagon.

And as per my very last post about Gopher, he has not yet fully escaped my suspicion.

Comprende?

 

[Reluctantly]

I don't get it RB, what's scummy about Gopher? All I saw was him getting attacked at the beginning with very little to go on from Hado. He defends himself, they agree to hold off, and then Hado makes a long shitpost that doesn't confirm anything except that we have to trust him in knowing Gopher enough to know that he's acting strange and accept all his points that would be WIFOM otherwise.

Sorry, but it's silly. Gopher could be mafia, but there's little evidence now. I'd like to think you are Town RB, but this might make me change my mind, unless you can explain it.

 

[redbaron]

I don't want this game to be RB vs. the world again, so make points by all means. If you're just +1'ing me on Gopher then that's fine.

Fine because as mentioned, I didn't read your case but I peeked the spoiler and it's fucking long. I don't think you're faking your Gopher suspicion, so I don't think I'd be in danger of being sheeped by a scum Hado. Plus I don't even read you as scummy at this point so that's a double okay for me.

 

[Reluctantly]

wait, I missed your post RB. I'll read it first.

 

[The Gopher]

Okay well I finished game of thrones.

I actually really really want to post my case now but the way things are going is just perfect. It'll all make so much sense when I post this but posting it now may cut off some things.

I agree their cases are weaker than mine. Also I agree with RB, Sinny is scummy as all get out. But you seem to have targeted wrong. It almost seems as if you are saying Sinny's scummy because of how she's reacting to Gophers targeting and doesn't think Gopher is scum.

Which my current theory is, Mafia Sinny must be against Hado cause well consistency no mater his role. So she... what's the mafia word.... Oh buddying. So she buddy's up to me who she knows is town and following my lynches. Basically I agree with what you're saying but why are you voting me over Sinny? Also this literally ties into my post it's hilarious. Honestly waiting a bit has been the best thing ever and it's gonna blow your mind.

See Mafia don't want to push cases that come back to bite them. I pressure pushed bronto and then pushed for the lynch on Happy and Sinny jumps on right away both times. If I was mafia and Sinny was mafia I would be screaming at her. That's association I would not want at all. Particularly pushing a case to the finish that if I was mafia I would have known was town. Now that's.

But anyway it's hard to say much without posting my big thing that... Well here's a table of contents.

• The introduction.
• The why Hado is bullshit.
• The shocking truth revealed.
• The why Hado’s case is stupid.
• Gopher’s day one strategy section.

 

[Reluctantly]

@RB
Your post wasn't very clear to me. All I got from it is that because you think Gopher is WIFOMing he must be mafia. That's not a strong case to me and the ESC references don't really relate especially when we only have one lynch that everyone agreed on because Happy wouldn't post (well except Zerk).

 

[Sinny91]

Dude. Your over thinking this way to much.

The above quote means that on day one in the previous game I TRIED TO PREVENT A LYNCH.

But I entered this game, intending to help lynch on day one as per consensus. Ergo, I chose m targets with that objective in mind.

I wanted Bronto to talk, and as I was experiencing that particular thought Goph popped up saying VOTE BRONTO, and I was like 'hey yea, that's a good idea! Peer pressure on Bronto! ... Then a few pages later in transpired that Bronto is just not playing at all is was about to get modkilled, just as I was thinking my vote on Bronto would bea waste , Reluctantly pipes up to suggest the very same. A bit later, I stopped being lazy on my hone and lifted the Bronto vote.

I very cleary stated that I had to get a vote in prior to work, and zoned in on Helvete and Happy for being lurkers, explained that Helevete seemed more town to me, and so joined the Happy wagon.

And as per my very last post about Gopher, he has not yet fully escaped my suspicion.

Comprende?

Gopher, please see this post. Sorry about the spelling, was hitting my keyboard to hard. I was not 'buddying you', my votes were completely independent.

 

[redbaron]

I don't get it RB, what's scummy about Gopher? All I saw was him getting attacked at the beginning with very little to go on from Hado. He defends himself, they agree to hold off, and then Hado makes a long shitpost that doesn't confirm anything except that we have to trust him in knowing Gopher enough to know that he's acting strange and accept all his points that would be WIFOM otherwise.

Sorry, but it's silly. Gopher could be mafia, but there's little evidence now. I'd like to think you are Town RB, but this might make me change my mind, unless you can explain it.

Did anyone ever think Zerkalo was mafia apart from me either? Not even the fucking spectators thought Zerkalo was mafia - but voting patterns don't lie. Mafia can't collude on Day 1, they don't have meaningful time to plan strategy. It's the best time to catch them red-fucking-handed and I caught Zerkalo + Puffy last game using the same process.

Zerkalo last game threw out these stupid little, "oh noooo we lynched a Townie wow so sad :'(" (not word for word, but basically the gist of it)

Zerkalo is caring, but she's not some fucking vapid twat - but can I make a legitimate argument out of such a small thing that people would believe? No. Literally no one would have believed me if I said she put out a giant scumtell from that stupid little sentence.

But scumtells DO come in that form and you CAN find them, just as long as you understand the player, the context and then have something concrete to tie it to: voting patterns.

What I want to know is, why do you think Gopher's inconsistency can just be explained away by stupid shit like, "haha I'm an ENTP "

Then when I question him on it, he turns around and says:

"Oh just kidding bro, it's just a silly in-joke that I shouldn't have made."

No shit. He fucking knows it was a slip that Town Gopher wouldn't make. He might have inconsistencies (we all do) but there's small tells that don't fit with people's personalities. Town Gopher doesn't make that comment, because it's a shitty excuse and creates confusion. It doesn't make him look red, it just makes things into wifom.

He doesn't make a more obvious slip like Zerkalo because he's more experienced, but he's not other-worldly experienced. He's about 7 or 8 games experienced, he's still going to slip.

If you want to make a case on why I'm scum for hunting scum (lmfao), go ahead and make one. I'll be waiting.

Also, what about Sinny? Your thoughts on her? FWIW: I still read you as town.

 

[redbaron]

wait, I missed your post RB. I'll read it first.

!!!!!!

Okay, pretend my last response wasn't a thing then and we can start over.

 

[The Gopher]

Well sure I saw that. However saying they were independent and them being independent are two different things. If I take you at face value I would believe you. I would also believe all of the people in this game are town.

The reason I'm so excited right now is I literally predicted this outcome. What's going down right now is almost exactly what I thought would and is the entire reason waiting was a good idea.

 

[Sinny91]

Well, I'm not proficient in the art of mind control, so you'll have to take my word, or not, at your own discretion. They were some real simple Ne connections going on in my head, and I've provided you the narrative. I know you have this 'persistent' feeling about me, but you need to shake it off. I was just being utilitarian.

 

[Reluctantly]

!!!!!!

Okay, pretend my last response wasn't a thing then and we can start over.

heh, walls of text. It popped up while writing a message (so I didn't read it) and then I immediately went after the messages after that.

But no, I don't have a case on you, lol. Just saying as I see things.
Not to be nitpicky, but what inconsistencies do you mean about Gopher? The one's you mentioned? Cause again, that's a bit tenuous, given we're only in round 2 and it relies on voting patterns. Plus I don't really care about last game. I think people should think for themselves completely fresh and make as many arguments as possible. The inconsistencies will come out the more arguments are made and responded to and responded to critically.

 

[redbaron]

See Mafia don't want to push cases that come back to bite them. I pressure pushed bronto and then pushed for the lynch on Happy and Sinny jumps on right away both times. If I was mafia and Sinny was mafia I would be screaming at her. That's association I would not want at all. Particularly pushing a case to the finish that if I was mafia I would have known was town.

Except you can't scream at Sinny in Day 1. There's literally no way you could prevent this happening, and it's exactly what I'd expect a tag-team of Sinny + Gopher to look like.

You'd have no way of stopping it and the lynch-wagon coming from you would make her join you.

The thing is that I'm inclined to agree with you on how Sinny would play mafia. The problem is that her playing mafia this way is contingent on her having a mafia player on her team who she'd be willing to actually follow and who she wouldn't rebel against as an authority figure. That list isn't a big list.

 

[Reluctantly]

I'd like the new guys to talk soon. Who are they Rook and uh arki? They are super lurkers at this point and should provide a fresh perspective on everything, since they can go through it all at once.

 

[The Gopher]

Well no it relies on following a town OR a mafia player she's willing to follow. Just because you think her strat involves me being mafia doesn't mean her strat does. Her strat could be follow the town.

True that I wouldn't be able to scream at her though.

 

[Reluctantly]

@Gopher

This whole I've got an argument and I'm predicting everything so I know everything sounds great and all, but it's meaningless to everyone else. Can't you just make your points already?

Oh well, I'm going to bed and then going to work tomorrow. Check in if/when I get time.

 

[Ex-User (11125)]

shit i really thought helvete was scum...sorry helvete i must have been annoying to deal with but you werent defending yourself properly and i got a little too obsessed with your post-game1 comment

rb THANK YOU for calling out on sinny

speaking of shitposting i think we all need to talk a little about urakro's behaviour during the last few hours of day 1...is this reckless/bad town play or mafia realizing they read the tides wrongly? reluctntly should also be interested in this since he's talking about people who agreed on happy's lynch

You know of barnum statements (Forer effect?). I tried setting it up so that my thoughts and feelings were ambigious and could be applied to either me actually thinking your town, or that your mafia.

You're taking the bait into thinking that my statements indicate you as a mafia personality. You're identifying with that personality description more.

It's all good, man. Since then, my mind's changed quite a bit, and I agree you seem more town.

bearing in mind that nothing noteworthy happened between the two posts for this to be a believable change of mind

 

[Hadoblado]

K

Wait you both think Sinny is scummy?

I think her town. She's too consistent unless she's been specifically ordered to act a particular way, and there's no way she'd be following someone else's order like the way RB describes.

What am I missing?

Okay so gopher suspects me so this doesn't convince him. But RB: Her aggression towards me has been 1 to 1 correlation with the volume of my voice and the degree to which I presume authority. She's held off actually attacking me despite me rubbing her the exact wrong way specifically because she was dead certain last game and turned out wrong.

If she were scum, she wouldn't need to hold back on me. There'd be no doubt niggling at her. She'd get to fling her middle finger as much as she likes. Her road to victory would be to do exactly what she did last game.

@Gopher
You case better be good if you're hyping it up like this.

 

[The Gopher]

Yeah I want both of them to talk then I post my post. Or I get impatient and post it anyway since well... you'll understand when you read it but it puts me in a strange position right now.


Yeah sorry reluctantly I probably should actually post it. I was going to wait longer since more people posting thoughts first would be good as it commits mafia to their current opinions somewhat. What does the rest of the people think?

I'm not as confident in some of my conclusions simply because I don't understand the Helvete NK yet but other than that I'm ready to post when people think it's the best time.

 

[redbaron]

heh, walls of text. It popped up while writing a message (so I didn't read it) and then I immediately went after the messages after that.

But no, I don't have a case on you, lol. Just saying as I see things.
Not to be nitpicky, but what inconsistencies do you mean about Gopher? The one's you mentioned? Cause again, that's a bit tenuous, given we're only in round 2 and it relies on voting patterns. Plus I don't really care about last game. I think people should think for themselves completely fresh and make as many arguments as possible. The inconsistencies will come out the more arguments are made and responded to and responded to critically.

Fair points.

What has Gopher actually done this game to present to you as Town though? Apart from sheer activity, where has he done things that actually look Town? If you can read him, sincere congratulations because I can't penetrate that filter.

He put a countdown timer in his signature, okay? He asks people questions about what they think about other people. Cool. What does he DO though. Regardless of playstyle, surely he's going to DO something?

He's got a case coming now, conveniently after he adopts the wait and see method after Day starts. But why? It apparently prevents others from jumping on his wagon - it just as easily lets him jump on a wagon too. What's to stop him just doing the same thing?

 

[Hadoblado]

@RB
Also, mafia get to use their QT before the game starts. Or, at least, they got to last game.

QuickTwist, did the mafia get access to their QT before the game started?

 

[Hadoblado]

EBWOP
QuickTwist, were the mafia able to communicate with one another before this game started?

 

[Hadoblado]

@Gopher
Just post it. Nobody cares about Helvete or Happy apparently.

 

[Sinny91]

@Gopher
Just post it. Nobody cares about Helvete or Happy apparently.

Well, happy didn't really participate, and I'm pissed at him for that.
I was expecting a statistical town lynch, so I'm not overly dejected. I suspect one or two mafia potentially lurking in the Happy list of lynchers, and I know myself not to be one.

I am most curious as to the Helvete night kill, I would expect Urakro or yourself to have been the victim if you are both Town. Helvete must have drawn the cop or doc suspicion. Zerko has been really weird for me, I need her to get here to defend her self and her weird logic. She accused me of being a bad Townie in the last round because I made it known so obviously so that I was Town.. I don't see the issue with that.

 

[Sinny91]

** In regards to the previous game, I forgot to add

 

[redbaron]

K

Wait you both think Sinny is scummy?

I think her town. She's too consistent unless she's been specifically ordered to act a particular way, and there's no way she'd be following someone else's order like the way RB describes.

What am I missing?

Yeah but she actually hasn't been consistent, she's flipped on you and a bunch of other people. That's what you're missing.

Okay so gopher suspects me so this doesn't convince him. But RB: Her aggression towards me has been 1 to 1 correlation with the volume of my voice and the degree to which I presume authority. She's held off actually attacking me despite me rubbing her the exact wrong way specifically because she was dead certain last game and turned out wrong.

Last game she decided you were an authority figure and no amount of pleading or niceties even remotely swayed her. Okay maybe she's learnt? I can't allow you to think that, because it's not solid gameplay, it's personal. You want to believe you "won" this situation and that she, "learned".

She didn't, she's just playing the game like scum.

If she were scum, she wouldn't need to hold back on me. There'd be no doubt niggling at her. She'd get to fling her middle finger as much as she likes. Her road to victory would be to do exactly what she did last game.

I don't think so. I think again that it's not how a person brand new to playing scum would play, not even Sinny. Furthermore, if you think Gopher is scum then I honestly have no idea how you DON'T see Sinny as scum.

If you thought Gopher was town then I'd understand it. What am I missing where you suspect Gopher as scum but somehow don't suspect Sinny as scum? You know what, even IF Gopher flips green, I'm STILL gunning for Sinny because Gopher's right - Sinny could do this to town as well. I'm just really fucking sure that she's doing to to mafia.

They both implicate each other here, is what I'm saying. Lynch either one, I don't even care - but I'm not letting these reads out of my sight unless some kind of fucking amazing piece of evidence arises that tells me how not-scum they are.

 

[Hadoblado]

Wait why did you expect me to get NKed?

That makes no sense to me.

 

[The Gopher]

Starting at the beginning, this posts table of contents will go a little like this.

• The introduction.
• The why Hado is bullshit.
• The shocking truth revealed.
• The why Hado’s case is stupid.
• Gopher’s day one strategy section.

This might seem like an odd order however as the shocking truth and then finally my day one strategy will reveal it makes perfect sense. This is a long case and this is the order that makes sense in the end. There are 3000 quoted words in spoilers and 4000 words explaining everything in detail. I started writing this post at 1:30am and stopped writing at 5am. It’s now 2pm and I am going to go through it for the second time in an attempt to make things clearer.

The Introduction.
So Hado and I have known each other for a while and we both play mafia on a different level. No doubt you read his post and went... What... However he’s not entirely wrong however as I’ll get to later he picked up on the right things for the wrong reasons. In a sense I both wish I was as clever as Hado thinks I am but am simultaneously not as dumb as he thinks I am.



Why Hado is bullshit

First though, a brief look into why Hado is bullshit. Some of these points will only make sense after I destroy his case on me. Anyway I’ll stick to just saying facts, then I’ll explain the facts in my perspective since I intend to be clear and allow you to draw your own conclusions first. That said in the bullet points section still read for bias as I’m sure it slips in there.

• Okay, since half way through day one real time Hado has had a case on me.
• While he’s pointed out some things along the way he thinks are scummy he didn’t really get around to making a full case with proper reasoning like he did until the end of day one.
• Taking a really long time to make cases could be considered mafia because they have to be very careful.
• It took Hado two and a half days to make one case on one person he found really suspicious, and one person he found mildly suspicious. (RB)
• His case was almost entirely based on a first half of day suspicion and he couldn’t find anything but fluff and limp cases in the entire 2 and a half days that followed.
• He distanced himself from the lynch saying he didn’t really like it (called it basically a lurker lynch) but he didn’t have any reads that weren’t on me.
• He didn’t have any reads on people other than me apart from the fact he specifically initiated a truce so we could hunt people that weren’t super active. (Hado, RB and I)
• Now true that was also to give town breathing room but he had literally no opinion and in essence didn’t care about the day one lynch.
• He was doing things that give him power, specifically going after me out the gate (the main potential threat) and not giving me a chance to respond to his case.
• He admitted to cruising through day two and again did nothing but case me day three.
• Well while I’ll get to his case which gives his reasoning for this he did come out with a lurker strategy and then refused to answer my questions until the truce and him giving information finally “In good faith”.


Now that’s not the complete list but that’s what I have on the top of my head.
The result of his actions in short is; he gathers power for himself, he doesn’t look attached to the (now) town Happy lynch and didn’t need to give his reads on any of the potential lynch targets. This should make him harder to read day two He tried to set me up for a day two lynch before the first day is over and gets away with cruising/lurking essentially. Sure he’s active but he wasn’t involved in the lynch gave no reads but RB and I and creates drama only to take it away and say okay now the rest of you do the work for today. He also can’t find much apart from the one interaction however still believes it’s a strong case.

This is concise as possible and you can draw your own conclusions.

The shocking truth revealed

Now we move on to “the shocking truth revealed” and then the explanation in my refutation of Hado’s case. I don’t entirely explain why I believe this truth here as that’s part of my day one strategy section however it’s important you know this first.

I think Hado is town. I’ve thought this since the middle of day two. I’ve even thought RB was town. Shocking I know, why would town Gopher do this? Anybody else with the above resume I would lynch instantly and honestly I would get the lynch in most games. Let’s face it (once I’m done with his case) it’s completely useless. The entire thing is just so stupid clever it hurts. I honestly think his case on me has done more to prove I’m town than I have the entire game. If I didn’t defend him here/later I imagine the people here would lynch a play based on that play in relation to that type of case. (Partly because mafia would help them hence mentioning wanting to wait in that first post of mine you saw today)


However this isn’t any retard we’re talking about we are talking about Hado’s smart retardness. As you saw last game how his reads were wrong on “Normal” people. Now imagine his reads with his paranoia and wifom amped up to the max on me. How do I know this? Cause the first day and a half I was exactly the same. I practically assumed Hado was mafia because I wifomed myself into thinking he was playing better/worse/odd as I over analysed everything. Seeing his case on me gives me clarity into why he was thinking what he thought and it’s so relatable it hurts. (Although as town I don’t play on that level or... type of Meta initially which is part of why he misread me. I’ll explain that in my defence)

At this point in time feel free to take a minute to process that revelation however it’s best to blend the rest of the post into my defence so I’ll start that now and after I finish the paragraph by paragraph section at the end I give my day one strategy that explains why I did what I did with this revelation.


The Reply to Hado’s case.


Introduction.

In this section I explain why Hado’s reasoning for my actions is inaccurate. I also explain how he has framed the situation incorrectly. Due to this case revolving around a really early interaction I mention intuition. As I said before intuition comes first and then reasons for it come later. I go into great detail about why what I did was not a mistake based on the reasons that are clear to me at this point in time. The reasons I came up with at the time are not inaccurate however they were not complete and I understand my handling of it perhaps was a mistake. However again what he said was a mistake is very clearly not a mistake which starts Hado on a train of wrong assumptions. I aim to correct those assumptions in this section. Also something to note everything is confined to this small interaction. When I say things in relation to my suspicious it goes on and up over the 1/half day however I don’t analyse any of that simply due to it being three hours til start of day at this point and I’ve already spent most of my time just on this.

http://www.intpforum.com/showpost.php?p=533225&postcount=772

That’s the link to Hado’s case on me.

This is his reasoning for lurking in the spoiler tag. You don’t need to read it all again I’m going to quote the part that’s important later; it’s just for ease of use since I have time.

Spoiler

Okay I guess I better reveal. I wanted more to happen, but it seems other people are of a similar temperament to me in wanting to keep some things close to their chest.
The reason I wanted to lurk: Because INTPf has an issue with proactivity. That sounds stupid but hear me out. Last game everything kinda revolved around me. That was intentional, but honestly I didn’t have to try very hard. It is the nature of many people here to sit back, observe, and wait. This is not good for town.
This game I don’t want everything revolving around me. I don’t want to run for mayor. I think by being so centre stage it deprives other players of the opportunity to prove themselves. Nobody is going to be as aggressive as I can be, I’m the loudest in the room always. You guys can make all sorts of cases, and the reasoning can be perfect, but I simply yell louder and with more conviction. This is how it works IRL too. The person who is assertive and confident gets the attention (I’m not like this IRL).

So how to have an atmosphere in which people are actively doing stuff, but I’m not bullying them into doing stuff? I opted for some rather base reverse psychology. I make an obvious ploy of lurking. The people who are decent at the game see the ploy and leave me alone to do it. The people who are less experienced and not as settled see it and suspect it. It’s an obvious direction for town to go. They then have a punching bag to lay into. “How could you be so authoritarian game 1 and then be a lurker day 2?”. They’re eased into a rhythm of actually hunting scum, all the while generating the content that can then be used to question each other. In short, I was trying to circumvent the ritual day one flippancy that it’s so easy to fall victim to.
I then reveal, demonstrating that the reasons for a scum hado to lurk are ill conceived by posting at my normal rate (proving I’m not afraid to post). RB and Gopher then back what I’m doing regardless of their alignment (they have to because I know they’d understand and contradicting me would be scum tip off).
Another aim was to avoid the wrath of Sinny, who equates influence with scuminess.

Then I brainfarted, and thought that I wasn’t going to have comfortable time for the redemption phase. So I broke cover and went for simple plane aggression. I tried to avoid accruing authoritative momentum, but as you can see by Sinny’s list, the two filter dredges on me, and the people waiting on my reveal, it seems I’ve failed.
I didn’t need to bark at lurkers, as RB had that niche covered.

I didn’t need to encourage lurkers and demi lurkers, because gopher had that niche covered.

I did encourage lurkers a bit, playing good cop (not a crumb) to RB’s bad. I stand by my stated position that I do not want to lynch inactives.

I refrained from casing gopher, or from even moving in the direction of my second read at that time (redbaron), because I knew by the end of the day they’d be very active, and I don’t like voting players that are very active. I also wanted to see people actually make their own cases instead of jumping on mine. I’m not saying that the people who jumped on Gopher are just following me, because I don’t think that’s true. But when I make cases, it polarises town which is an easy state for scum to manipulate from given enough time. I don’t want to lead you, I just want to have the things I say evaluated at their own merit.

Now I’m going to break up the main post (these spoilers you should read)

Spoiler

“As mentioned, I backed out, though made it clear that my intention had been to lurk.
I’m going to simultaneously consider both town and scum variants of what happened for Gopher. I want you all to be critical of my reasoning here. If you think it possible that I’m mistaken, give me a reason why.
At this point:
- Town Gopher is trying to find a way to make town active
- Scum Gopher is trying to find a way to make himself look active, and to have town feel active without achieving anything.
Agreed?

Agreed, that’s how I was and generally do play town early and if I was scum that would generally be my intention. However I will point out this kind of scum would do this, town would do this gets Hado’s reasoning into trouble later since people are far more complicated than this and any incorrect assumption on his part throws the reasoning out the window.

Spoiler

So Gopher asks me the following:
Quote:
Why were you planning on lurking more?
Keep in mind that I expect Gopher to see me making an obvious ploy. Overt lurking is very against my meta, and unmistakably a play on my part.
- A town gopher does not know that the plot is over. A town gopher is poking the plot to satisfy their own curiosity. But in doing so, he’s actively diminishing a town hado’s plot power if he isn’t finished. He is (self reportedly) going on intuition alone, and has no hypothesis he is testing. If it’s a scumplot, there is no urgency for a town gopher to poke it now, as it will unfold on its own, giving scumtells if gopher is suspicious from the beginning.
- A scum gopher is routinely asking questions because that’s what you do to look like town. He’s not actually trying to establish anything, and thus he’s basing his behaviour off intuition alone: his intuition of what he needs to do to look like town. If he fucks up somewhere, he can blame it on faulty intuition.
I want to make it clear that there is no way in hell that Gopher thought I was lurking for the reasons a scum lurks. That would be outside Gopher’s parameters for what a scum hado could possibly do. I’m an overthinker, not a derpish lurker. I would get no satisfaction from playing mafia by lurking, even if I won. I will never, ever, lurk just to win a game. It’s unsportsmanlike and I take my games seriously.
I also want to rule out the notion that Gopher wanted to ‘increase town activity’. Every game I’ve ever played I’ve been prolific in posting. I am not a person that needs to be coaxed, even as scum. Gopher knows this well. Town Gopher did what he did through habit or through his own personal curiosity.

Okay I’ll fully admit I saw the obvious ploy, at least, the first one. However remember what just happened?

Spoiler

“I was planning on lurking more, but just realised I'm not available tomorrow night to make up for it. So I need to do more now.”

So I was like. Okay lurking was obviously a ploy I don’t like that ploy I’ve never seen it before from Hado and I became suspicious, then he seemed to break it if he’s town he has no problem telling me since it’s over. “Was planning” and then no longer, figured I’d ask the question.

In short Hado assumes I would know that the plot wasn’t over. I thought the plot was over. At this stage of the game simply getting any conversation going is the goal and this seemed like a good place to start.

To put the next parts in context I’m specifically going to bring this to your attention
.

Spoiler

“Then I brainfarted, and thought that I wasn’t going to have comfortable time for the redemption phase. So I broke cover and went for simple plane aggression.

He breaks from his play that could be mafia or town as its wifom then changes up completely. I’m already on edge from him simply being Hado and then he did a ploy I’ve never seen before that could be deliberate to throw me off. If he was town he wouldn’t need to throw me off since if I was town there’s no need and mafia already knows his alignment. This means he would only do if he was mafia and I was town and wanted to make his read unclear. That was my “logic” although at this stage I was mostly going with the flow of intuitive suspicion. I genuinely thought the plot was over which isn’t something I would do as mafia.

I wanted to increase town activity over all. If I’m talking with you others can come in and also talk with you. That wasn’t my only reasoning for talking to you as I’ve laid my reasoning out above, with my thought process paranoia and a honestly mostly curiosity (I’ve never actually seen a town lurk strategy work and couldn’t contemplate why you would)

In a sense the assumptions for the rest of his case start to break here.

Spoiler

I had some intentions. They would have been fun. I'm not going to explain them because I might use that strategy in some other game, and since it didn't actually happen, it's irrelevant.
Please compare to my explanation to ensure it makes sense. While I’m refusing to give a real answer, given that I wanted to save this strategy for another game, you can see that my refusal to answer isn’t defensive right? This is plain to see? I’m just reserving the strat for a more appropriate time.

At this point initially my response is.

Fair Hado.

I have some strategies I’ve just been waiting to use and it would suck to lose them simply because I miss planned how long I would be somewhere. (The initial reason he freaked out and broke cover.)

Spoiler

“Why are you interested in why I wanted to lurk more? How could that possibly lead you to a read? What response would a mafia hado say that a town hado wouldn't, given that both had just admitted and rescinded that intention?

Because dwelling on details of games that failed to happen doesn't seem productive. Reasoning please.”

Basically for all I know Hado could be mafia that refused to give his reasons possibly because his strategy was a mafia lurking strategy and couldn’t think of a town reason to do it. If at this point mafia Hado can pull a lurk town strategy out of his hat he’s clearly done his pre-game mafia planning.

Spoiler

As stated, I couldn’t think of any reason that his question could generate a useful read. I still can’t, and neither can Gopher as he later admits. It makes no sense for a town gopher to sacrifice my ploy in order to ask questions that don’t help town, even if he doesn’t know what my ploy is. All the same, it’s possible that it’s habitual/intuitive, which would be consistent with Gopher’s meta both as town and as scum. But I wanted to drill him for it because there’s nothing happening at this stage in the game, and this is a genuinely good lead.
Before response:
- Town Gopher is either so curious about what I’m doing that he’s willing to give away my cover (also denying less able players the opportunity to question obvious suspicious behaviour) OR is just so autopilot about asking questions he unthinkingly asked, as per his established meta.
- Scum Gopher is trying to find a way to make himself look active, and to have town feel active without achieving anything.
Sorry if these updates are repetitive, I just want to keep his possible positions on the forefront of my case.
After response:
- Town gopher sees hado attacking him by asking questions. Town gopher does not expect to be attacked so early (he usually isn’t), but he knows that what a town hado would be doing at this point is trying to bully people around to make them give tells, which is just a good idea in general. Town gopher does not see hado hammering him as scummish, even if it does make him feel defensive.
- Scum Gopher is not used to this much attention this early at all. He panics a bit. I know that sounds wifomish, but if you are scum you heart jumps every-time someone says your name. To be sniffed out his early? Shiiiiit! He composes himself, because he’s not an idiot. He knows that in all likelihood hado hasn’t got anything real, but he’s still a little shaken by the possibility he’s thrown.

This is where it really falls apart. Now I admit my reply wasn’t exactly tactful or helpful and while wifom it’s not the type of dismissive reply I would make if I was mafia and knew you to be town.

After all the pre-game stuff I would have been more careful and controlled around you. Anyway wifom over... I take a mocking tone and can’t really come up with the reasons my intuition is telling me to ask these questions. In a sense some of the reasons I’m listing here are post intuition deciphering reasons. I know Hado is scummy or seems that way I just couldn’t put into words why. Doing it now it’s obvious.

I obviously have worked out why my intuition was suspicious and it is basically habitual to ask questions, while I’m not specifically trying to get him to talk if I’m asking everyone else questions to try and kickstart town it’s only natural to ask Hado questions. Hence associating that with my reasoning and intuition in the post along with finding it defensive. A key point is he’s running on the assumptions I know it’s a ploy and as I’ve already mentioned at this point I thought the ploy was done and dusted.

Keeping in mind I have a solid intuition read, at least as solid as it can be at that point of the game that Hado is scummy/defensive but can’t put it into words. Getting attacked by an intuition read where he doesn’t answer my question and then flips the table and attacks me is screaming mafia.

Gopher: “Hado why did you do this?”
Hado: “Not gonna tell you cause reasons”
Hado: “Btw you’re scum because you asked me a question. Now I’m going to bombard you with questions implying you’re scum.”
Gopher: “What?”

Just in the same way his logic here only makes sense if he assumes I’m mafia my response only makes sense if I was assuming he was mafia.

Also “mafia me” does not freak out over one question about why I asked you a question... I am honestly offended you would even suggest that. (He says while smiling) Okay I’m not honestly offended however I think you should take up a creative writing class your imagination is truly wonderful.

Spoiler

Now, Gopher is not upset. He might be shaken, but he’s experienced at mafia, and while he’s not used to being pressured early, only an idiot would feel genuinely betrayed. I don’t think it possible that Gopher actually took anything personally, but the tone he uses suggests as much. Or, at least, a flippant rendition of butt-hurtedness.
Sarcasm: Yes
Born of false hurt or facetiousness: Not sure
So let’s break it down.
Quote:
Reasoning hado? Cause I mean what possible reason could a town person be asking questions for! Bad Gopher bad!
Sarcasm.

Implication: all questions are town question.

Implication: thinking that not all questions are town questions makes you stupid

This is peripheral pathway reasoning. If you give a moment’s thought, it’s pretty obvious that not all questions are good for town. If I ask you “what’s your favourite salad dressing?”, I haven’t furthered anyone’s understanding. The township would be better off without such a question being asked, because it fills up filters and any attention given to it comes at the cost of attention being payed to actually hunting scum.

So there are in fact questions that are not town questions. And if that is the case, it’s not stupid to believe it.

Now take the demonstrated uselessness of the dressing question, and add a skin to it that makes it seem mafia related but actually isn’t. Now it’s even more anti-town, because people don’t dismiss it. They’re investing more attention in something that is not useful, because they think they’re doing something useful. And if there are newer players sitting around watching, they might accidentally equate that line of questioning as a pro-town thing to do. Muddying everything the fuck up.
This is entirely consistent with a scum gopher’s intentions, and a town gopher knows this. A town gopher does not try to convince everyone that what he did was right, because a town gopher knows that it was a mistake.

Okay this is a long chunk let’s take it slow. The tone was supposed to be an absurdity tone. In my mind you just accused me of asking questions and that sounded ridiculous.
Sarcasm was an accurate read.


“Implication: all questions are town question.

Implication: thinking that not all questions are town questions makes you stupid”


Reality: all my questions are town questions and I know this cause I’m town.
Reality: how is this reason to suspect me? Is hado posturing? (This came into effect later)

Honestly I had no reason to believe I made a mistake. Intuition was telling me something was up and my question was valid I just didn’t know exactly why. There are reasons I’ve listed that influenced that intuition so obviously it wasn’t a mistake in hind sight. Also just another thing as the start town has nothing to go off so it’s best to bite at anything that truly gets conversation started compared to the troll voting. I had every reason to do what I was doing based on intuition so turning it around on me without given reason was so incredibly far out of my mind it completely blindsided me and I couldn’t help but be sarcastic. Later I realised that you might have legitimate reasons but at the time I was like HADO’S STUPID I ALREADY FEEL BAD ABOUT HIM MUST BE SCUM.

I’ve already gone into the whole psyching each other out thing that happened. In short town me asks a question, then doesn’t get an answer which I consider initially fair then gets question attacked about asking a question which I very much did not think was town behavior.

Spoiler

“Why are you so defensive and trying to shut down conversation?”
And here’s the guts of it. This speaks volumes.

- A town gopher has just fucked up. They know they’ve invited the attention of an aggressive player who’s acting town-like, by committing a scummy act, and they want to deescalate. Town Gopher knows he’s town, and doesn’t want to attract the attention of town because he knows it’s a waste of time.
- A scum gopher has just had his gameplan thrown in doubt. If he can get picked up this quickly, the forecast for the next four days can’t be good. He gives up on defending himself properly, and instead goes to what he knows works: misleading the town. For this reason, he does not speak in words meant to appeal to town hado, but in words meant to appeal to noob town. He’s no longer trying to convince me of his innocence. Instead, he turns on me.

Reality. Town Gopher smells blood, he’s defensive questioning already and not answering my questions I’m in fact escalating now getting more and more suspicious. I go full retard (okay I said accusing you wasn’t a mistake in hindsight; instantly thinking your scum on the other hand and basing assumptions of that was full retard) and you become scum instantly in my mind, everything you say I’m now biased against. I don’t appeal to Hado because Hado’s no longer town, no longer on my side and is now clearly leaning red. (well as red as you can get within the first page)


To reiterate, town Gopher did not commit a scummy act, town gopher did not want to deescalate, town gopher doesn’t care about attracting “Town” attention because the town isn’t town it’s *see’s red* scum.
Scum Gopher would love it. If you defend yourself early enough people forget about you come lynch time. It’s inevitable to get attacked so the earlier the better.

Spoiler

As I hope to have established, I wasn’t being defensive. While a town gopher did not have the explanation I’ve posted in order to be as certain (and following up on getting an explanation later was something I read as greenish), he did know that attacking gopher for the fuck up is not a defensive move. Further more, with how open I had been about my intentions to lurk, he should have expected me to be prepared to be questioned for it, which to me implies he expected a considered, rather than knee-jerk defensive, response. He was not expecting me to be defensive, but it was more useful to his goals at this time to interpret me as being defensive. So he did.

First point not a fuck up so doesn’t apply. Second point I expected my god dam question answered not to get it avoided then turned into an attack. The knee jerk response was the attack coming out of left field that triggered my knee jerk response and so on.

Spoiler

and trying to shut down conversation?
Now this… this!! …is the thing that really truly makes me think scum. Other parts of my argument and read are less certain, but this is unequivocally scummy. He accuses me of shutting down conversation, when what I actually did was ask questions:
Questions all. But Gopher! There are no untownlike questions! Yet here you are accusing me of asking untownlike questions. By calling them ‘shutting down conversation’.

Even a town gopher, who fucked up with his useless question, has hado asking questions as a non-scum read. Because town gopher thinks that asking questions is a town thing to do. In no scenario does Gopher think me asking him questions is scummy, but he’s painting me scummy to the audience.

Why would a town gopher choose to paint what he perceives as a town player scummy, if, as town, he knows he’s not actually under that much threat given he’s planning on posting so very much to give town reads? A town gopher would only paint someone scummy off zero evidence in order to save themselves for certain since in his head, a certain townie (himself) is worth more than an uncertain townie.

Experienced players know that, as town, they will be able to survive day one with certainty even with a little fuckup like his useless question. As scum, when they’re not basically guaranteed to leak green tells? That’s a different question. The answer to which is ambiguous, and might cause a rattled scum gopher to over-react to token day one aggression and start shitting things up.

Town gopher does not think that hado was shutting down conversation. Town gopher would not accuse a player of undetermined alignment of being scum just for asking questions. Questions which, btw, were the exact kind of thing that Gopher was trying to elicit by his routine questions, and which were the most pro-town thing to happen so far at that point in the game. Real questions that tested real hypotheses. The only conclusion I can draw is that town gopher does not exist, because gopher is scum.

ALL YOU DID WAS NOT ANSWER MY QUESTIONS YOU RETARD. *cough* sorry reading this is giving me an aneurysm. You clearly shut down MY conversation. My TOWN conversation. I know I’m town, but you deflected, your questions weren’t questions to me they were a deflection shifting focus off yourself. Shutting down one conversation in favour of your own. You bet paranoid me who was playing the several levels of intuition game freaked out. Again if I wasn’t so heavy on the intuition I probably could justify everything as it happened but if I wasn’t I may never pick it up in the first place so I’ll deal with the trade off.

I wasn’t accusing the questions of being anti town and shutting down conversation I at first was all. Oh fair he has some reasons I guess but I don’t like it then suddenly the left field thing triggered me and the intuition/paranoia ticked into overdrive.
Okay again to be clear mine was not a useless question, you thinking that is the same as me thinking yours were somehow deflection. Asking questions is a town thing to do, avoiding them isn’t. You have my reasons for going after you completely wrong in this entire section. In fact the frame is completely wrong. You’re imagining a one sided attack with me on the defensive when the reality was more akin to two bulls charging each other.

I didn’t paint a town player scummy I painted my intuitive scum read doing something that I thought was completely stupid as scummy to let other people know. Hey just so you know this guy is suddenly suspicious. I wasn’t at all under threat I was attacking. Hence never being worried about being lynched the entire game and when Uroki asked if I was nervous. I had evidence. In fact simply making this defence I’ve found so much evidence on you I could honestly bury you in it.
And no not rattled. As previously mentioned, that would be stupid, you’re perception is that I was on the back foot here when what you describe as painting was an attack on perceived mafia.

Again not because of the questions. This is part of the reason I think you’re town even with heaps of evidence backing up my early scum reads. The misunderstanding would be too hard to pull off as a case unless you genuinely believed it.

“I mean, can nobody else see the similarities between this and “why do you hate America?”. It’s a gross political display that a town Gopher did not believe in, and had no reason to make.”

It is a bit of a political display true but I did believe it and made for the reasons I mentioned. Also I always make political displays; I’m not able to force people to vote for someone like you last game I influence people to look into who I think scum are. (Or so I thought RIP happy)

Spoiler

Now this case was very wordy, and it’s difficult to communicate the vast amount of information that goes into a read as intimate as this. I know gopher. I know his playstyle because I’ve seen it, not understood it, then asked him and others specifically about it because it was a glowing counter-example to the way I thought mafia worked (at the time). I then watched him do it and looked back over his games. I am “breathing on your neck and you not being freaked out” level intimate with how he operates. The assumptions I’m working off are not ones you guys can pick up on, because you haven’t seen him play. But they’re real. We’ve got a whole deathnote interaction happening here, where it’s difficult to bring you guys up to speed, not because we’re so far above everyone else, but because you guys aren’t familiar with how he operates like I am.

I agree we’re on a level above or more accurately beside in a cultural difference but at the same time I’m playing town and I play it a level below the level above you’re at so it might throw you off. You’re basing this off the level above the level below the level above I play as mafia. (Sorry I had to do it, it’s been a long time writing this post so far I’ll get back to serious.

Spoiler

Gopher has been fluff posting like a beast. Lots of information dump posts. That is, posts that even a mafia can do without giving away his scum intentions. The town being informed of how to play the game is kind of a given. I’m not saying that information dump posts are scummy, I make them too, but they don’t really contribute to post count. They’re non-alignment indicative and should be ignored, even if they are helpful.

Oh please like you could really accuse me of that. I’ve posted too much for it all to be fluff. I ended up championing the Happy lynch and while... yeah mb but he hadn’t posted for two days after implying he had time to and would so I’m not that cut up about it. I should have realised and acted on the fact that nobody seemed concerned about lynching happy but ironically Zerk and Helvete gave me reason to believe there was.

Spoiler

He also has a style by which he says what first comes to his head, then kind of retracts it as he posts the next thing that comes to his head. This soft-claims transparency, but he and I both know that he is entirely opaque. His style as scum is not to make any specific posts that push town one way or another, but to ‘death by 1000 cuts’ town. He puts lots of little ‘potentials’ in, all with a small chance of being picked up and sewing discord, and none of them being stuff he can be held to. Hence why he hasn’t made any serious cases. Admittedly, this looks like his town style too, but my bet is that in the aforementioned retractions is where he places his small scummy pushes. Day two, I intend on going through them. I have already noticed some that were highly suspicious, but didn’t stop to drill them.

Two concepts in the accepted doctrine that I know Gopher is aware of is that town tend to OMGUS, and town tend to hunt scum, even when attacked. Looking through his posts, he has tried to look like he’s OMGUSing me, and he’s tried to look like he’s hunting scum. But his OMGUS case was very weak. Limp in fact. He tried to make it look like he was tunneling me, but it was so forced. It was silly. His ‘scum hunting’ has almost entirely been him shifting focus onto other people. Zero conviction. When he voted for bronto, you could see that he was trying to shift town focus onto that track, and I believe immediately afterwards someone did actually jump on to make it three on bronto: someone that was probably going to be modkilled anyway. Again, this was manipulating town attention. A town gopher didn’t think this was a good lynch, it was made almost purely as a manipulation (whether he be town or scum).

The rest of town can almost ignore my thing below it’s basically a pure intellectual Meta read thing that only Hado probably gets.

Kinda right. Slight miss read, the mafia game I’m thinking about I actually had far more big posts and took more time between posting to make sure I was consistent. Sure I fluff posted to death between them to appear active and responsive however honestly I’m not actually sure if that would work without kushmaster. Keep in mind I almost got lynched on the last day if not for playing town on the Sk lynch. Although basically this wall of text is really wifom anyway I just thought I would point it out.
Also serious case on Happy. Hello. The difference between death by 1000 cuts and town is consistent ramping up. I was suspicious of happy, I questioned happy, I looked through his filter, more and more suspicious over time until he seemed like the only obvious lynch due to mafia read and lurking. Death by 1000 cuts would be much less firm on it and would piggy back other people. If I’m not piggybacking on other people I’m bussing my scum team. Anyway this part is fairly wifomy so if you’re reading this and confused focus mainly on the misunderstanding that happened with reasons for voting and if I was town or mafia based on each of our reasoning’s of the situation in question.


I didn’t look like I was OMGUS ing you I was OMGUSing you but also with reasons I now understand. Honestly can you blame me? Looking all these reasons just from one short interaction and again at the start where I made my “case” on you and imagine my intuition and paranoia picking them up.

Two people jumped on Bronto, RB and Sinny. That was a pressure vote to get him to post. I obviously wasn’t trying to lynch him day one you need to read that in context, it just happened to happen when you and I were fighting. Also I keep saying you’re the one that backed off and gave me nothing to go off. I wanted answers you weren’t giving and a case on me you weren’t giving and ALSO and this is important. I wanted to make sure you didn’t have power. I did post in a way to cut down your authority. You being scum with authority over me is honestly terrifying. Imagine the other way around? You can’t accuse me of not having the town juice on you when I specifically said you took away the bottle.

Okay thus ends the post by post section and I go into my general day one strategy that also helps explain things and why I still attacked hado when I thought he was town.

First point, I wasn’t sure. If Hado wasn’t mafia and did horde power that would be terrible and I needed to make sure if I was wrong that wasn’t an option.
Secondly, if I didn’t keep attacking hado he was an obvious scum NK. Nobody else did it so I needed to keep acting like I thought he was mafia so he survived the night.

Also I wanted to survive the night lol. If Hado is suspecting me and drops a big case on me that gives the mafia less reason to NK me.

Also I started thinking he was town when I started to see his perspective. Once we were not fighting midway through day two I lost the rage coloured glasses and realised he was against me for similar misunderstandings or potential reasons that I was against him for. It’s really hard to explain for the same reason his case on me was hard to explain. (Although there was more than one reason for that as this post points out)

In other words, he acted in the exact Hado version of what I was doing and since I’m town I’m reading him as town. That said if I have Stockholm syndrome and it turns out you really think Hado’s mafia let me know.

This is a big part of the reason my case on him limped out and turned even more into political warfare. I could always go back on it if I didn’t die and I was almost securing the two most active town’s survival. It’s fucking brilliant if I do say so myself.

I had a crisis of conscious at 24 hours to lynch when he suggested not posting the case yet because at that point I was only just coming around and went back and forth from wanting his case now and not. But that’s part of the reason I was happy to go with it.

Also another thing in my strategy was once I noticed Hado wanted to hold off on the case til 24 hours then more I was curious of the ploy. It didn’t seem like something mafia hado would do unless he had a weird NK me strategy and if I kept up the political but not actual attacks others might join in and result in catching scum.
Also the reason I reason I read RB as town is because he had every chance to continue attacking me with hado but said my answers were fine. Same with Urkui.

Now we’re on town reads I also think Reluctantly is town, same as zerk because she was trying real hard to not lynch happy and she’s stated not wanting to lynch people she doesn’t read as town. I like Jenny but have less on her.

Sinny both voted for Bronto (which apparently is scummy) along with the happy lynch at a very middle of the pack time, although she said she didn’t know so many votes were on. Helvete did as well but that could be town self perseveration. PMJ, rook and Imp? That’s 5 people that I’m sure some mafia is part of. Gonna look into actually doing day two thoughts after the Nk. Man I really hope I don’t get Nk’d afterall. This post and my day one would look silly if I did... Currently 13 hours to start of day at this point. Written this case up entirely in order and haven’t gone back to edit yet. (Gone back to edit now but I didn’t add much mostly just clarity and formatting, still pre-nk if you are wondering)

Review

As a quick review. His case on me falls down due to him misunderstanding my reasoning for attacking him and taking it the wrong way completely. Also I went full retard paranoia and can only assume he did the same. Also his case is wrong because he said my attacks on him were limp when there was a very good reason for that both in lack of content due to him effectively lurking the content I wanted and due to not thinking he was mafia for the latter half of the day.
I honestly think we’re both playing town but both playing different games. As I explained in my day one strategy I’m clearly playing on a macro level but revealing all this and expecting Hado to be satisfied with nobody else (currently day one) really being against me I fully expect to be Nk’d on night two.

 

[redbaron]

@RB
Also, mafia get to use their QT before the game starts. Or, at least, they got to last game.

Well - okay, but if they can't use it during Day 1, my points are still valid.

 

[The Gopher]

Wow that is a wall and a half. Important to say it as clearly as possible and cover all points though.

 

[Ex-User (11125)]

i asked QT to post something for me because i knew i wouldnt be here when day 2 starts; i wanted everyone to hold off their thoughts on day one's lynch and nightkill until ika and rook talk first bc they're clean slates. QT refused to post it :c but anyway not much has been said so far about happy/helvete and i'd like to keep it that way...if you guys dont mind that is


hado i remember sinny being okay with you for the majority of day 1 until people started pointing out that something is off about her. she also declared urakro as her for-sure town read only after i pointed out that she played last game differently by first identifying cerstain people as strong town reads and then reading everyone else based on how much scum hunting they do on her town reads *shrugs* it just seems off

 

[Ex-User (11125)]

"anyway not much has been said so far about happy/helvete and i'd like to keep it that way"
ugh nevermind i just saw gopher's long wall of text

 

[Sinny91]

Wait why did you expect me to get NKed?

That makes no sense to me.

I don't really want to say because of your ego n all... But, simply because if you are Town, you are a key motivator for Town, and hence a strategical target to take out.

We'd perhaps loose some of our organisation and direction were you not here.

 

[Sinny91]

i asked QT to post something for me because i knew i wouldnt be here when day 2 starts; i wanted everyone to hold off their thoughts on day one's lynch and nightkill until ika and rook talk first bc they're clean slates. QT refused to post it :c but anyway not much has been said so far about happy/helvete and i'd like to keep it that way...if you guys dont mind that is


hado i remember sinny being okay with you for the majority of day 1 until people started pointing out that something is off about her. she also declared urakro as her for-sure town read only after i pointed out that she played last game differently by first identifying cerstain people as strong town reads and then reading everyone else based on how much scum hunting they do on her town reads *shrugs* it just seems off

Hunting Town was my day one game plan, I announced as much. And Hado is perfectly fine and Helpful well he's not being an authoritarian. I've announced as much. Now what was your weirdness all about towards the end of day one?

 

[Hadoblado]

Hmm.... Town Gopher has set me up to die tonight.

Fuck youuuuu!

 

[PmjPmj]

I don't really want to say because of your ego n all... But, simply because if you are Town, you are a key motivator for Town, and hence a strategical target to take out.

We'd perhaps loose some of our organisation and direction were you not here.

Careful with the 'royal we' there, Sinny-winny.

 

[The Gopher]

Hmm.... Town Gopher has set me up to die tonight.

Fuck youuuuu!

True but at least you didn't die last night. Besides I'll probably take the bullet anyway so I'll make sure I don't do anything half as crazy that requires me to live to explain. I totally gambled entirely on not dying cause if I died before posting that it could have gone really south.

 

[PmjPmj]

Hmm.... Town Gopher has set me up to die tonight.

Fuck youuuuu!

If you aren't Mafia and end up getting lynched, I will create, upload and share a public apology to you via YouTube. You can all delight in my obvious face-palming.

I doubt very much that'll happen, though.

I'm also now more suspicious (or perhaps irritated; I'm crap with working out how I feel about things) with RB for taking the focus elsewhere. Shut up and get on board, RB. Stop it! Stop it right now.



At present, I have nothing more to add. I'll think on (and, ahem, properly read) Gopher's dissertation at some point today.

 

[Sinny91]

Yeah but she actually hasn't been consistent, she's flipped on you and a bunch of other people. That's what you're missing.

.

No, you mean to say is: I'm open to new information, and shaking off previously held bias.

Unlike some, apparently... and some of you are quite obviously experiencing acute and persistent paranoia. Get your wits about you, will you guys. I'm not the boogey man in the shadows. I'm here, and I'm consistent, even in all my inconsistencies.

 

[Hadoblado]

You realise RB's my buddy right? As in, he thinks I'm confirmed town?

And now Gopher does too apparently.

And Sinny.

And I've done nothing since our last conversation that could possibly be misconstrued as manipulation. Adjust your world view buddy.

Also a video apology? I literally bet my bare white ass that you wouldn't get NKed. Do you have any idea how cold it is here in the middle of the night? There is snow on that there mountain! Your walk is not so emboldened as your talk mein freund . I say the video has to be naked

 

[Hadoblado]

Well okay... not necessarily confirmed town... but you know what I'm saying.

 

[The Gopher]

Hado what was your reaction though?

 

[Jennywocky]

Okay, so by the time I try to read, research, and respond, I'm probably forty posts possibly more behind again. I see Gopher has posted a missive by now (?), which I haven't read at all, and stuff around it. So sorry. Maybe I just need to just do shorter posts instead.

By details I mean Hado's posting of all of Helvete's posts in one post with no point to reference him.

ehhh, that doesn't bother me as much as other things. It's something any Town and any scum would do, for different reasons. If he hadn't done it, someone else would have, it's investigate.

Hardly, though it may seem that way. If Zerk wasn't mafia, there'd be no reason for mafia to NK Helvete. Reason being, mafia thrive on confusion and taking out someone vague like Pmj would have been a much better move. But no, Helvete was removed as if to make a perfect move that would steer away from Zerk. Nice try.

yeah, remember when I said on Day 1 that some of my baskets were heavier than others? Zerk's play eventually had more substance than most at the time -- Town points. But the sporadic, confusing, and often defensive nature of it (door slams anyone?) ... scummy as hell. I have a lot of trouble making sense of her or why she's doing stuff. She kind of veers in and out of that zone for me. So I've got issues with Zerk but nothing conclusive.

The kill is as confusing as fuck, since we'd already be pushing on Helv Day 2 -- he was already being sniffed out by Town. Why off anyone already that freaking squishy? But swinging the other way --"too obvious a move to frame Zerk, so no one would do it, so doing it makes total sense" ... ehhhhh. That's complicated.

@Hado: Reading you gives me mental whiplash. The stuff you said in the first pages today sounds sincere and Towny, then I read it again and it's not too hard for it to jiggle in the other direction. Null read for me right now, I'll review it again later. But the whole Gopher obsession is what's is grabbing me.

I don't have a "meta" on Gopher like you claim to have; I mean, I have a sense of his personality on the forums, but not nearly as much as you claim to have about him (OVER and OVER and OVER again, tbh). Because you seem able to pick out just a few sentences in his entire post history on Day 1 to spin this entire narrative from. Pages of material. You are just laser-locked on him.

So we get this HUGE build-up -- "Oh, I can't participate much in the Day 1 vote, oh I'm drafting this huge missive about Gopher that just HAS to be published in Twilight just in case I get sniped, etc" Drama, much? But we're all hanging on with baited breath waiting for earth-shattering revelation... and then what it comes down to after hours of work and many many words (already pared down) is a few sentences that Gopher made that you took great issue with because of meta.

Worse, you admit that you really aren't focusing on other stuff in the game because you've put all your eggs in the Gopherbasket (one of your comments), you mention this kind of stuff a number of times:

To be honest, I have not been paying as much attention to the middle of the pack. None of them are as clear a read as you. My real reads are unattainable day one, so hunting these guys would be forced. I am paying a loose attention to them, and I'm picking up a fair few greensigns, but I'm not able to tunnel hard enough to attain the scumsign while also completing this case.

But when I read through that long case, it's all just built on your meta of Gopher which you can't really prove to anyone by a long argument anyway. We either know Gopher or we don't. We either see your intuitive case with a few paragraphs or we don't.

Which leads to the basic point that when I try to parse what you're typically saying, I get as confused as fuck. Two separate big events on Day 1 alone where I come away more confused than when I started, trying to grasp your arguments. Needless walls of text. I'm not a stupid person, so when I keep coming away more confused than when I started, I have to wonder wtf is going on.

A large time investment, little bang for the buck.

Oh, and as I go to post, I catch you telling Gopher that after all the hype, "his case better be good." Like, whut?


@PMJ: Well, good, you're finally back in this thing with everyone else. Happy was the biggest question mark for me by end of Day 1, but you weren't far behind. You said a few things of general substance in Day 1 but mostly just swagger and then a vanishing act. Now you're back with a bit more meat, but still a lot of sound and fury. I need to sift through the charisma and see what's left, and catch up with the remainder of the thread.

But... supposed to be at work, so...

 

[Hadoblado]

Gopher before I answer, to what extent do you trust that I'm town?

 

[The Gopher]

For those who have read my wall of text.

Spoiler

Hado just because I said I think you're town doesn't mean you shouldn't answer why you did all those things. (and other peoples cases) Because if you answer it well that only strengthens my read.

 

[PmjPmj]

You realise RB's my buddy right? As in, he thinks I'm confirmed town?

And now Gopher does too apparently.

And Sinny.

And I've done nothing since our last conversation that could possibly be misconstrued as manipulation. Adjust your world view buddy.

Also a video apology? I literally bet my bare white ass that you wouldn't get NKed. Do you have any idea how cold it is here in the middle of the night? There is snow on that there mountain! Your walk is not so emboldened as your talk mein freund . I say the video has to be naked

NKed?

Also, none of that tells me anything. You could quite easily be in cahoots with other Mafia members. Again, you're every bit as full as hot air as you assume I am. As is everyone right now.

If you're town, I'd be genuinely amazed. Time will of course tell. One way or another.

 

[Hadoblado]

Night killed.

But yes, I want you to do the video nkd