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Forum Mafia Game #2

Urakro

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You still said you would prefer a lynch on me which paints the portrait of mafia no matter how ambiguous you phrased things. I am treating the situation like I am in the worst light because really, I have nothing to hide. I know how it's looking for me and it's pointless to pretend otherwise, I just want to try and prove that I am in fact town.
It's all good, man. Since then, my mind's changed quite a bit, and I agree you seem more town.
 
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that was the point you re hashed a couple of times, regardless of whether it was your weakest or not which is why I said it was your main point.
nope. reluctantly pushed me to explain the bronto bit so i dedicated one long post to that. but that in no way invalidates me saying it's the weakest thing i have on you
-also helvete prefers a lurker mislynch rather than an active mislynch...which i find weird becuase, save for bronto, i think everyone's shown readiness to get involved. i dont think we need to worry about bronto, QT will get him modkilled or replaced if he remains inactive. but other than bronto, everyone expressed readiness to answer other people's questions when theyre free...i guess this is a very weak point but just putting it out there
anyway i already said in the quote that this is a somewhat weak case against helvete, because helvete said what he said early in the game. he didnt retract his statements about bronto though, and other people also kept bringing up bronto as a candidate for pressuring/lynching which i saw as a weak/meaningless vote. so you can say this point was more general and not against helvete in particular
like can i get more clear than that?^
 

Hadoblado

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RB's absence this close to the lynch is kinda frustrating.

Someone, please tell us you're voting for Happy, then vote him once we've responded. If we have a no-lynch day one I am going to lynch the people responsible. If you are town you don't want that, if you are mafia you don't want that.

Reluctantly, people will look into it for the day two lynch. Just please don't make this a no-lynch.
 

redbaron

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Am here, I actually don't understand this shit.

@Reluctantly why are you voting Zerkalo? Is she a very high scum read or do you dislike the Happy train that much? Those are the only two reasons you'd risk a no-lynch at this point. I'm going to vote for a lynch, I was hoping Happy would turn up although at this point he doesn't have enough time to make a real case.
 

Jennywocky

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It's all good, man. Since then, my mind's changed quite a bit, and I agree you seem more town.
Over the course of two hours?
What was the big shift for you?
 

Helvete

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"-what i dont like about helvete is that so far he comes across as very null and im inclined to write that off as a scum-leaning read
-says he doesnt like people posting their lists, as mafia could take advantage, but is also responsible(sometimes directly, sometimes indirectly) for the pressure that made most players so far produce their lists
-if you look through helvete's filter it's very difficult to even come up with questions because he has generated no input himself so far. i think it's quite abnormal for town to not openly express distrust towards atleast one player. all he's done so far that comes close to that is exerting very soft pressure on happy in like...the first few posts
-also helvete prefers a lurker mislynch rather than an active mislynch...which i find weird becuase, save for bronto, i think everyone's shown readiness to get involved. i dont think we need to worry about bronto, QT will get him modkilled or replaced if he remains inactive. but other than bronto, everyone expressed readiness to answer other people's questions when theyre free...i guess this is a very weak point but just putting it out there"

I'm playing cautious, my mafia reads were way off last game.



Pls show me how I've influenced lists?

Why is the lurker lynch weird? Also bronto isn't the only lurker dispite what the others say. Happy is very red right now.
I'll elaborate more tomorrow, I'm posting as I can't sleep...
You ignored this post (it was hasty and wasn't thought out or well written but I wanted some light on this)

Please tell me how I influenced others to post their lists and ask me to explain anything I didn't make clear.
 

redbaron

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Okay, here's the thing:

Neither Helvete or Reluctantly are suddenly targeting Zerkalo out of self-preservation that I can tell, because it's Happy who's at risk of lynching, not them. Please quickly summarise why you want to lynch Zerkalo because she's on my "no-lynch" list for level of activity (and the implication that it makes her unlikely to be mafia) but not necessarily for lack of scumminess.

I prefer lynching Happy because he's playing outside his style and really doing nothing to help. How do you have Zerkalo on SUCH a high scum read that you'd risk a no-lynch?
 
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i directed a lot of stuff at helvete, which i admit was difficult to answer, more of it was explaining where my thoughts are coming from, but point is you cant say the bronto bit is the main point i had on you. i had nothing to say in response to your post that i havent already said before so i ignored it
 

Urakro

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Over the course of two hours?
What was the big shift for you?
It's just there isn't any point getting into it. Plus, now I'm seeing he's having suspicions of people which I may have overlooked earlier. He's not confirmed town or anything, tbh I don't think anyone is for me.
 

Helvete

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Zerk I may have missed to context of the last point after you explained it so whatever. I had a fair bit to read when I awoke. So if you could just see to my previous post and what reluctantly and I were asking you about we're all good :)
 

redbaron

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Fuck it, it doesn't really matter why you're suddenly off Happy. It can be analysed Day 2.

(Shadow Vote Happy - I won't let a no-lynch happen.)
 

redbaron

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Fuck it, it doesn't really matter why you're suddenly off Happy. It can be analysed Day 2.

(Shadow Vote Happy - I won't let a no-lynch happen.)
ABWOP: that doesn't mean you get away with not explaining it.
 

redbaron

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Okay I think I know what's bugging me.

Zerkalo is voting Helvete, despite the fact Helvete is actually here and making some effort to help (or just self-preservation, but it doesn't look like typical townie self-preservation to me) and Reluctantly is voting Zerkalo because he doesn't seem the suspicion as legit. Am I right?
 

Helvete

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What is strange about the way I'm defending myself? What does it look like to you?
 

Reluctantly

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Okay, here's the thing:

Neither Helvete or Reluctantly are suddenly targeting Zerkalo out of self-preservation that I can tell, because it's Happy who's at risk of lynching, not them. Please quickly summarise why you want to lynch Zerkalo because she's on my "no-lynch" list for level of activity (and the implication that it makes her unlikely to be mafia) but not necessarily for lack of scumminess.

I prefer lynching Happy because he's playing outside his style and really doing nothing to help. How do you have Zerkalo on SUCH a high scum read that you'd risk a no-lynch?
You know what. If Happy is mafia, I don't even need to explain myself. And I believe he is, so...

UNVOTE Zerkalo
VOTE Happy

If he is, I'll explain on Zerkalo. But right now it's probably a waste.
 

Jennywocky

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Okay I think I know what's bugging me.

Zerkalo is voting Helvete, despite the fact Helvete is actually here and making some effort to help (or just self-preservation, but it doesn't look like typical townie self-preservation to me) and Reluctantly is voting Zerkalo because he doesn't seem the suspicion as legit. Am I right?
Yeah, I think that is mainly it, although Reluctantly has been bothered by Zerk in the past as well?

Sorry, getting foggy. I would love to watch the ball drop here, but I think I'm crashing -- 3am here now. Sayonara, good morning, and good night.
 

Urakro

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What is strange about the way I'm defending myself? What does it look like to you?
If you're referring to redbaron's statement, redbaron was talking about zerkalo's self-preserving.

Not that I'm using this against you or anything.
 

Hadoblado

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Okay I'm done. Kinda exhausted, and it's not as punch as I'd have made it given infinite effort value and time. It's still strong, though complex, which hurts, but Gopher's meta is not one you can tackle early and hope to take down with a simple case.

RB is here so the lynch is now assured once more. We've got an hour. I'm fucking blitzed and finding it difficult to follow wtf is going on between Zerk, reluc, helvete etc.

Off the top of my head, eight things will happen by tomorrow which will have the game change:
- we will have lynched happy
- bronto will have been mod-killed
- doctor will have used night action
- cop will have used night action
- my case will land
- the truce in the emperor's booth will be over
- someone will be NKed
- someone will be roleblocked

Scum will have spent quite some time trying to figure out our blue roles. They will make their NK on one of the following:
- the most townest town
- the person that sets up town to mislynch
- a person they think is cop
- a person they think is doctor

I think we've set ourselves up okay. If both Bronto and Happy flip green, that's shitty, but not much you can do with that level of lurk. They're not going to give great info either, but there's a decent chance they're red.

Outside of this, we have decent activity from pretty much everyone. Stepping aside seems to have allowed others the room to scuffle they needed, so props to Sinny for wanting me to stfu, and I think zerk(?) who was pushing for a truce at the top. We have a far more balanced player pool than last game, even if we have multiple people lurking etc., they mostly be gone soon.

I will want PMJ to contribute substantially more tomorrow. He missed the noose today because the momentum was shifted in a different direction, but if Happy flips green it implies that the direction was shifted to him manually from other candidates by scum and town never had the right mindset to stop it. We will look into this and if PMJ doesn't lift his game he in deep trub.

I'm ready when you guys are.
 

The Gopher

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Players
1. PmjPmj - 0
2. Reluctantly - 0
3. Helvete - 1, zerkalo
4. Redbaron - 0
5. Hadoblado - 1, PmjPmj
6. Jennywocky - 0
7. Bronto - 0,
8. Sinny 91 - 0
9. The Gopher - 1, Happy
10. Cheeseumpuffs/Blaruran - 0
11. Happy - 6, Jennywocky, Gopher, Sinny, Helvete, Urakro Reluctantly, (Hado has a shadow vote on happy and wants to case the last vote on don't cast the 7th vote)
12. Zerkalo – 0
13. Urakro – 0


AGAIN WE'RE UP TO 6 VOTES and hado's strat relies on him voting last so don't vote on Happy.
 

redbaron

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I'm saying it's not strange and it looks like more town and not the typical self-preservation you'd see from both town and mafia. You're not martyring either, so that's nice. I want to know why Zerkalo sees it more fit to vote Helvete because I actually understand why Reluctantly wants to vote Zerkalo for wanting to vote Helvete over Happy too.

She's been railing on lurkers but now wants to vote the less-lurking lurker.
 

Hadoblado

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Vote Happy

Twilight phase begins!


The Case:

It's about 3000 words + 600 that are me reposting my reasoning for wanting to lurk, since my main read is based on it and it's important it's understood.

You have all of night. Compared to the hundreds of posts that you read in the day phase 3000 words really isn't that much, considering I had to write the damn thing (and this is the second draft too, there's another 2000 words I didn't post at all).

If there is ambiguity, please ask the question and make sure you understand. I know that it's a tricky case because it relies so heavily on what I know of Gopher that I don't expect you to know. I may have even left out details because I've written and rewritten etc., or made assumptions and forgotten to justify them. It's all a bit of a haze now :storks:

At the start of the game I intended on a lurking strategy, as has been detailed here:
Okay I guess I better reveal. I wanted more to happen, but it seems other people are of a similar temperament to me in wanting to keep some things close to their chest.
The reason I wanted to lurk: Because INTPf has an issue with proactivity. That sounds stupid but hear me out. Last game everything kinda revolved around me. That was intentional, but honestly I didn’t have to try very hard. It is the nature of many people here to sit back, observe, and wait. This is not good for town.
This game I don’t want everything revolving around me. I don’t want to run for mayor. I think by being so centre stage it deprives other players of the opportunity to prove themselves. Nobody is going to be as aggressive as I can be, I’m the loudest in the room always. You guys can make all sorts of cases, and the reasoning can be perfect, but I simply yell louder and with more conviction. This is how it works IRL too. The person who is assertive and confident gets the attention (I’m not like this IRL).

So how to have an atmosphere in which people are actively doing stuff, but I’m not bullying them into doing stuff? I opted for some rather base reverse psychology. I make an obvious ploy of lurking. The people who are decent at the game see the ploy and leave me alone to do it. The people who are less experienced and not as settled see it and suspect it. It’s an obvious direction for town to go. They then have a punching bag to lay into. “How could you be so authoritarian game 1 and then be a lurker day 2?”. They’re eased into a rhythm of actually hunting scum, all the while generating the content that can then be used to question each other. In short, I was trying to circumvent the ritual day one flippancy that it’s so easy to fall victim to.
I then reveal, demonstrating that the reasons for a scum hado to lurk are ill conceived by posting at my normal rate (proving I’m not afraid to post). RB and Gopher then back what I’m doing regardless of their alignment (they have to because I know they’d understand and contradicting me would be scum tip off).
Another aim was to avoid the wrath of Sinny, who equates influence with scuminess.

Then I brainfarted, and thought that I wasn’t going to have comfortable time for the redemption phase. So I broke cover and went for simple plane aggression. I tried to avoid accruing authoritative momentum, but as you can see by Sinny’s list, the two filter dredges on me, and the people waiting on my reveal, it seems I’ve failed.
I didn’t need to bark at lurkers, as RB had that niche covered.
I didn’t need to encourage lurkers and demi lurkers, because gopher had that niche covered.
I did encourage lurkers a bit, playing good cop (not a crumb) to RB’s bad. I stand by my stated position that I do not want to lynch inactives.

I refrained from casing gopher, or from even moving in the direction of my second read at that time (redbaron), because I knew by the end of the day they’d be very active, and I don’t like voting players that are very active. I also wanted to see people actually make their own cases instead of jumping on mine. I’m not saying that the people who jumped on Gopher are just following me, because I don’t think that’s true. But when I make cases, it polarises town which is an easy state for scum to manipulate from given enough time. I don’t want to lead you, I just want to have the things I say evaluated at their own merit.

As mentioned, I backed out, though made it clear that my intention had been to lurk.
I’m going to simultaneously consider both town and scum variants of what happened for Gopher. I want you all to be critical of my reasoning here. If you think it possible that I’m mistaken, give me a reason why.
At this point:
- Town Gopher is trying to find a way to make town active
- Scum Gopher is trying to find a way to make himself look active, and to have town feel active without achieving anything.
Agreed?
So Gopher asks me the following:
Why were you planning on lurking more?
Keep in mind that I expect Gopher to see me making an obvious ploy. Overt lurking is very against my meta, and unmistakably a play on my part.
- A town gopher does not know that the plot is over. A town gopher is poking the plot to satisfy their own curiosity. But in doing so, he’s actively diminishing a town hado’s plot power if he isn’t finished. He is (self reportedly) going on intuition alone, and has no hypothesis he is testing. If it’s a scumplot, there is no urgency for a town gopher to poke it now, as it will unfold on its own, giving scumtells if gopher is suspicious from the beginning.
- A scum gopher is routinely asking questions because that’s what you do to look like town. He’s not actually trying to establish anything, and thus he’s basing his behaviour off intuition alone: his intuition of what he needs to do to look like town. If he fucks up somewhere, he can blame it on faulty intuition.
I want to make it clear that there is no way in hell that Gopher thought I was lurking for the reasons a scum lurks. That would be outside Gopher’s parameters for what a scum hado could possibly do. I’m an overthinker, not a derpish lurker. I would get no satisfaction from playing mafia by lurking, even if I won. I will never, ever, lurk just to win a game. It’s unsportsmanlike and I take my games seriously.
I also want to rule out the notion that Gopher wanted to ‘increase town activity’. Every game I’ve ever played I’ve been prolific in posting. I am not a person that needs to be coaxed, even as scum. Gopher knows this well. Town Gopher did what he did through habit or through his own personal curiosity.
My reply is this:
I had some intentions. They would have been fun. I'm not going to explain them because I might use that strategy in some other game, and since it didn't actually happen, it's irrelevant.
Please compare to my explanation to ensure it makes sense. While I’m refusing to give a real answer, given that I wanted to save this strategy for another game, you can see that my refusal to answer isn’t defensive right? This is plain to see? I’m just reserving the strat for a more appropriate time.
After thinking it over a little, it strikes me that the question itself is suspicious. I then respond with:
Why are you interested in why I wanted to lurk more? How could that possibly lead you to a read? What response would a mafia hado say that a town hado wouldn't, given that both had just admitted and rescinded that intention?

Because dwelling on details of games that failed to happen doesn't seem productive. Reasoning please.
A defensive answer would have been more knee-jerk. I wouldn’t have gone away and thought about it after having answered simply, I’d have accused him right back. Right? My second post was calculated, my first one was speaking plainly. Not defensive.
I’m aware that going back and pointing out how non-defensive I was looks kinda defensive, but I’m aware of this and can’t avoid it. It’s important to rule out. I’ve got no reason to be defensive about these posts because they’re forgotten other than for my purposes.
As stated, I couldn’t think of any reason that his question could generate a useful read. I still can’t, and neither can Gopher as he later admits. It makes no sense for a town gopher to sacrifice my ploy in order to ask questions that don’t help town, even if he doesn’t know what my ploy is. All the same, it’s possible that it’s habitual/intuitive, which would be consistent with Gopher’s meta both as town and as scum. But I wanted to drill him for it because there’s nothing happening at this stage in the game, and this is a genuinely good lead.
Before response:
- Town Gopher is either so curious about what I’m doing that he’s willing to give away my cover (also denying less able players the opportunity to question obvious suspicious behaviour) OR is just so autopilot about asking questions he unthinkingly asked, as per his established meta.
- Scum Gopher is trying to find a way to make himself look active, and to have town feel active without achieving anything.
Sorry if these updates are repetitive, I just want to keep his possible positions on the forefront of my case.

After response:
- Town gopher sees hado attacking him by asking questions. Town gopher does not expect to be attacked so early (he usually isn’t), but he knows that what a town hado would be doing at this point is trying to bully people around to make them give tells, which is just a good idea in general. Town gopher does not see hado hammering him as scummish, even if it does make him feel defensive.
- Scum Gopher is not used to this much attention this early at all. He panics a bit. I know that sounds wifomish, but if you are scum you heart jumps every-time someone says your name. To be sniffed out his early? Shiiiiit! He composes himself, because he’s not an idiot. He knows that in all likelihood hado hasn’t got anything real, but he’s still a little shaken by the possibility he’s thrown.

He responds:
Reasoning hado? Cause I mean what possible reason could a town person be asking questions for! Bad Gopher bad! I just needed to cultivate conversation somehow. I didn't think about it or have any reasons apart from that. You should know I'm entirely intuition based in these games and I need stuff to fuel it with. Why are you so defensive and trying to shut down conversation?
Now, Gopher is not upset. He might be shaken, but he’s experienced at mafia, and while he’s not used to being pressured early, only an idiot would feel genuinely betrayed. I don’t think it possible that Gopher actually took anything personally, but the tone he uses suggests as much. Or, at least, a flippant rendition of butt-hurtedness.
Sarcasm: Yes
Born of false hurt or facetiousness: Not sure
So let’s break it down.
Reasoning hado? Cause I mean what possible reason could a town person be asking questions for! Bad Gopher bad!
Sarcasm.

Implication: all questions are town question.

Implication: thinking that not all questions are town questions makes you stupid

This is peripheral pathway reasoning. If you give a moment’s thought, it’s pretty obvious that not all questions are good for town. If I ask you “what’s your favourite salad dressing?”, I haven’t furthered anyone’s understanding. The township would be better off without such a question being asked, because it fills up filters and any attention given to it comes at the cost of attention being payed to actually hunting scum.

So there are in fact questions that are not town questions. And if that is the case, it’s not stupid to believe it.

Now take the demonstrated uselessness of the dressing question, and add a skin to it that makes it seem mafia related but actually isn’t. Now it’s even more anti-town, because people don’t dismiss it. They’re investing more attention in something that is not useful, because they think they’re doing something useful. And if there are newer players sitting around watching, they might accidentally equate that line of questioning as a pro-town thing to do. Muddying everything the fuck up.
This is entirely consistent with a scum gopher’s intentions, and a town gopher knows this. A town gopher does not try to convince everyone that what he did was right, because a town gopher knows that it was a mistake.

! I just needed to cultivate conversation somehow. I didn't think about it or have any reasons apart from that.
I have no problem with this. It’s talking straight.
You should know I'm entirely intuition based in these games and I need stuff to fuel it with
This is in reference to his normal meta. His normal meta being only using base intuition for the first few days, then bringing it all together later on. If he’s town he doesn’t get NKed, and he posts enough to never be a priority lynch, but he abstains from doing anything meaningful. This means he can act the same as both town and scum while always surviving. It’s a good meta to have, suited to his strengths. But it also makes it very difficult for anyone to catch him if he’s scum, unless they’re particularly familiar with it and committed. I don’t read this as townish or scummish from gopher, though it’s a red read for other people to claim an ‘all intuition’ mindset, since it’s unfalsifiable.
Why are you so defensive and trying to shut down conversation?
And here’s the guts of it. This speaks volumes.

- A town gopher has just fucked up. They know they’ve invited the attention of an aggressive player who’s acting town-like, by committing a scummy act, and they want to deescalate. Town Gopher knows he’s town, and doesn’t want to attract the attention of town because he knows it’s a waste of time.
- A scum gopher has just had his gameplan thrown in doubt. If he can get picked up this quickly, the forecast for the next four days can’t be good. He gives up on defending himself properly, and instead goes to what he knows works: misleading the town. For this reason, he does not speak in words meant to appeal to town hado, but in words meant to appeal to noob town. He’s no longer trying to convince me of his innocence. Instead, he turns on me.

Why are you so defensive
As I hope to have established, I wasn’t being defensive. While a town gopher did not have the explanation I’ve posted in order to be as certain (and following up on getting an explanation later was something I read as greenish), he did know that attacking gopher for the fuck up is not a defensive move. Further more, with how open I had been about my intentions to lurk, he should have expected me to be prepared to be questioned for it, which to me implies he expected a considered, rather than knee-jerk defensive, response. He was not expecting me to be defensive, but it was more useful to his goals at this time to interpret me as being defensive. So he did.
and trying to shut down conversation?
Now this… this!! …is the thing that really truly makes me think scum. Other parts of my argument and read are less certain, but this is unequivocally scummy. He accuses me of shutting down conversation, when what I actually did was ask questions:
Why are you interested in why I wanted to lurk more? How could that possibly lead you to a read? What response would a mafia hado say that a town hado wouldn't, given that both had just admitted and rescinded that intention?

Because dwelling on details of games that failed to happen doesn't seem productive. Reasoning please.
Questions all. But Gopher! There are no untownlike questions! Yet here you are accusing me of asking untownlike questions. By calling them ‘shutting down conversation’.

Even a town gopher, who fucked up with his useless question, has hado asking questions as a non-scum read. Because town gopher thinks that asking questions is a town thing to do. In no scenario does Gopher think me asking him questions is scummy, but he’s painting me scummy to the audience.

Why would a town gopher choose to paint what he perceives as a town player scummy, if, as town, he knows he’s not actually under that much threat given he’s planning on posting so very much to give town reads? A town gopher would only paint someone scummy off zero evidence in order to save themselves for certain since in his head, a certain townie (himself) is worth more than an uncertain townie.

Experienced players know that, as town, they will be able to survive day one with certainty even with a little fuckup like his useless question. As scum, when they’re not basically guaranteed to leak green tells? That’s a different question. The answer to which is ambiguous, and might cause a rattled scum gopher to over-react to token day one aggression and start shitting things up.

Town gopher does not think that hado was shutting down conversation. Town gopher would not accuse a player of undetermined alignment of being scum just for asking questions. Questions which, btw, were the exact kind of thing that Gopher was trying to elicit by his routine questions, and which were the most pro-town thing to happen so far at that point in the game. Real questions that tested real hypotheses. The only conclusion I can draw is that town gopher does not exist, because gopher is scum.

Why are you so defensive and trying to shut down conversation?
I mean, can nobody else see the similarities between this and “why do you hate America?”. It’s a gross political display that a town Gopher did not believe in, and had no reason to make.

Now this case was very wordy, and it’s difficult to communicate the vast amount of information that goes into a read as intimate as this. I know gopher. I know his playstyle because I’ve seen it, not understood it, then asked him and others specifically about it because it was a glowing counter-example to the way I thought mafia worked (at the time). I then watched him do it and looked back over his games. I am “breathing on your neck and you not being freaked out” level intimate with how he operates. The assumptions I’m working off are not ones you guys can pick up on, because you haven’t seen him play. But they’re real. We’ve got a whole deathnote interaction happening here, where it’s difficult to bring you guys up to speed, not because we’re so far above everyone else, but because you guys aren’t familiar with how he operates like I am.

So I’d like to see how Gopher responds to this.
I’ve only got an hour or so before I can comfortably end the cycle, so I’ll briefly go over what else he’s been up to. I’m not going to bother proof reading too much. As always, I had ample time, and misused most of it. I’m posting the rest off the top of my head to give you a holistic idea of where my deep tunnel case fits in.

Gopher has been fluff posting like a beast. Lots of information dump posts. That is, posts that even a mafia can do without giving away his scum intentions. The town being informed of how to play the game is kind of a given. I’m not saying that information dump posts are scummy, I make them too, but they don’t really contribute to post count. They’re non-alignment indicative and should be ignored, even if they are helpful.

He also has a style by which he says what first comes to his head, then kind of retracts it as he posts the next thing that comes to his head. This soft-claims transparency, but he and I both know that he is entirely opaque. His style as scum is not to make any specific posts that push town one way or another, but to ‘death by 1000 cuts’ town. He puts lots of little ‘potentials’ in, all with a small chance of being picked up and sewing discord, and none of them being stuff he can be held to. Hence why he hasn’t made any serious cases. Admittedly, this looks like his town style too, but my bet is that in the aforementioned retractions is where he places his small scummy pushes. Day two, I intend on going through them. I have already noticed some that were highly suspicious, but didn’t stop to drill them.

Two concepts in the accepted doctrine that I know Gopher is aware of is that town tend to OMGUS, and town tend to hunt scum, even when attacked. Looking through his posts, he has tried to look like he’s OMGUSing me, and he’s tried to look like he’s hunting scum. But his OMGUS case was very weak. Limp in fact. He tried to make it look like he was tunneling me, but it was so forced. It was silly. His ‘scum hunting’ has almost entirely been him shifting focus onto other people. Zero conviction. When he voted for bronto, you could see that he was trying to shift town focus onto that track, and I believe immediately afterwards someone did actually jump on to make it three on bronto: someone that was probably going to be modkilled anyway. Again, this was manipulating town attention. A town gopher didn’t think this was a good lynch, it was made almost purely as a manipulation (whether he be town or scum).

So from the above, we have a gopher who’s aware of what he should be doing to look like town, but not having the real townjuice to make it happen. He doesn’t really suspect me, and his scumhunting was half-hearted because to a scum, town always look like town.
 

The Gopher

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Yeah I'm ready. I'm supposed to be somewhere else right now so if the lynch happens sooner I'll be able to go there.
 

redbaron

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Vote Happy
 

Hadoblado

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While we've got time, can we please compile a list of who people were okay voting, and who they actually voted?

I was fine with these three:
- Helvete
- Happy
- PMJ

But honestly I was flimsy on this vote. I put my towneggs in my gopher case basket.

Feel free to provide this information in the morning if you scared of NK. It'd be something to help town's process, but also helps scum's NK process too.
 

Reluctantly

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Okay voting
Cheeseums/Blaur/Rook
Zerk
Happy

Voted
Zerk
Happy
 

The Gopher

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I think you have my list already just in my posts and I'll now leave for the thing I was supposed to be at. Interesting case though.
 

Hadoblado

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@cop
Consider flipping a coin between your top two reads. This makes it more difficult for Scum to NK correctly in order to set up mislynch as they're not so certain what information the cop has. Gopher is a decent target, since his head is on the block next. PMJ is also decent since they're another likely avenue. I'm not telling you what to do, but consider the option.

@medic
Also consider flipping a coin to determine who you save. Urakro is an obvious good target. Pick Urakro and your next best town read (or whoever else you think mafia might go for), and flip to see which one you save. This is more powerful than the cop thing, mafia really want that NK. If you manage to prevent their NK you improve towns position by a lot!
 

Reluctantly

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God, such a long case. I guess I'll read it, but I have a feeling it's going to read like Jung's writing...

And I really hope Bronto wasn't a cop or doc.
 

Hadoblado

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I'll explain anything that needs re-explaining.

I would have much preferred it to be shorter, and honestly I could have cut some chunks out if I didn't think it'd beg the question.
 

redbaron

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Who I don't want to lynch Day 1:

Jenny
Hado
Gopher
Zerkalo
Urakro
Reluctantly

Either because they're active and it'd be stupid OR because I think they're high chance of town (which would be stupid). I'm going to avoid voting those people because I think it's just bad process.

Also, special mention to Blarraun who doesn't officially make the list but has been pretty active in his short time in the game.
^ that was my list.
 

Urakro

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@medic
Also consider flipping a coin to determine who you save. Urakro is an obvious good target. Pick Urakro and your next best town read (or whoever else you think mafia might go for), and flip to see which one you save. This is more powerful than the cop thing, mafia really want that NK. If you manage to prevent their NK you improve towns position by a lot!
God no, don't use that on me. I'm obviously, not a cop. It's just a guess, but I'd say the cop would be the person actually mentioning stuff about cops, but yeah, I really have no fricken clue.
 

Hadoblado

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I'm not saying you're a cop you dork.

I'm saying that the medic should think about saving you because you're the closest there is to confirmed town. If mafia go for the "kill the townest town" option, you're a prime candidate. By the medic flipping a coin to save you, it increases the difficulty of scum in figuring out who to NK. They can't afford to risk a 50/50, since a medic correctly predicting them wasted their entire day.

Reluctantly is obviously the cop ;)
 

Reluctantly

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...

@Hado
Your argument on Gopher basically boils down to saying Gopher being reasonable isn't reasonable because you know him and we don't.

I'll explain,
Gopher is running on intuition first, logic later. This isn't a deterministic game; it's very intuitive and the beginning of the game has the most intuition versus later in the game where voting patterns have emerged. Not really a tell.

Gopher is asking questions, but not really hammering anyone. Again, there's not much to go on the game just began.


Maybe I misunderstood you, but I just don't see how your argument isn't a WIFOM.


Reluctantly is obviously the cop
Why? Because I've thought about all the roles? I cover all the bases. I didn't leave anyone out. Rook is most suspicious to me right now because of the lurker potential. I want EVERYONE to participate. It helps put everything into a big picture, even if it seems like I'm tunneling Zerk, I'm still paying attention to everything else.

But sure, if it keeps the cop alive by putting it on me, fine. I'm the cop.
 

Hadoblado

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Yep see, cop :D

It doesn't boil down to that. It boils down to Gopher going all histrionic political when a town gopher would have been confident he didn't need to muddy the waters that much to survive. He was not reasonable. He attacked me for questioning, while also accusing me of shutting down questioning. There is no consistent belief system that a townie gopher can have here.
 

Hadoblado

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I'll add to that:

I am not attacking him for being intuitive. I know that as town Gopher plays intuitive. But even an intuitive town gopher would not attack a productive question aimed at his unproductive one.

I admit I'm unwilling to let him play his pure intuition game because it's the equivelent of lurking.

But that's not my case.
 

Reluctantly

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I'll ... have to read it over again then. Here's hoping I don't get killed tonight. :D

IT WAS ZERK. lol no, I don't know.
 

QuickTwist

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OFFICIAL VOTE COUNT:

Players
1. PmjPmj - 0
2. Reluctantly - 0
3.Helvete - 1, zerkalo
4. Breadbaron - 0
5. hadototheMtotheothertothemotherfuckingblado - 1, PmjPmj
6. Jennywocky - 0
7. Bronto (The Shadow Cart) - 0
8. Sinny 91 - 0
9. The Gopher - 1, Happy
10. Rook Cheeseumpuffs - 0
11. Happy - 7, Jennywocky, Gopher, Sinny, Helvete, Urakro, Reluctantly, Hadoblado
12. zerkalo - 0
13. Urakro - 0

Not Voting: Bronto, Redbaron, Rook

Happy HAS BEEN LYNCHED! HE WAS:

VANILLA TOWNIE.

NIGHT ENDS IN : http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20160613T03&p0=159&msg=Forum+Mafia+Night+1+Ending&font=cursive

ATTENTION:

i'M GOING TO TRY AND FIND A REPLACEMENT FOR BRONTO. IF I CANNOT FIND ONE BY START OF DAY 2 HE WILL BE MODKILLED!

vote Gopher
Vote jennywocky
vote hado
Vote Happy
vote Happy
Vote PmjPmj
Vote Happy
Unvote Happy
unvote Hado
Vote Sinny91
Unvote PmjPmj
Vote Bronto
Vote Bronto
Vote Bronto
Unvote Happy
Unvote Bronto
Unvote jenny
Vote Urakro
Unvote Bronto

vote PMJ
Unvote PMJ
Unvote Sinny
Vote Hadoblado
vote Helvete
vote Happy
Unvote Bronto
VOTE Zerkalo
UNVOTE ZerkaloVOTE Happy
Vote Happy[
Vote Happy
[Vote Happy]
UNVOTE Happy
VOTE Zerkalo
UNVOTE Zerkalo
VOTE Happy
Vote Happy
It is now Night 1:

DO NOT POST!!!
 

QuickTwist

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ATTENTION:

Rook is replacing Blarraun.
 

QuickTwist

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QuickTwist

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ATTENTION:

ika is replacing Bronto.

DO NOT POST!!!
 

QuickTwist

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NIGHT ACTIONS HAVE BEEN LOCKED IN.


DO NOT POST!!!
 

QuickTwist

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QuickTwist

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YOU MAY POST!!!
 

The Gopher

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Well first off I have a full and complete reply to Hado’s post and a case on Hado. (of sorts It’ll make sense to explain this later)

The question is do you want it now or later? And I don’t mean hado’s two days later I mean 2-4-6 hours so people have had a chance to respond and interact with hado’s case on me/talk about the nk. Currently it’s about 4700 words with + 3000 words of quotes (in spoiler tags don’t worry). So even if I post “Straight away” Simply checking formatting will take time.

I’ll talk about the Happy lynch and whoever is Nk’d later. Oh it’s Helvete. (cocks head, huh.... this is going to be interesting)

... also I need to watch the new game of thrones at some point.
 

Hadoblado

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Wow Helvete you are not having a good run.

I mean you are, because you're drawing NKs which is super good for a noobie town to do, but it likely doesn't feel good.

I really do wonder what the reasoning is behind the NK. Presumably they thought you were cop? I completely missed any notion that you might be cop, but I wasn't looking. You weren't really close to establishing yourself as town... at least, I didn't think so. So this isn't just a town disruption play. I'm not actually entirely familiar with what your suspicions were... But I'll look into it and see what I can infer.

Funny how mafia is kinda like ancestor worship.

Given that you've received two early NKs in two games thus far, you can surmise you're doing a fair bit right.

Or a scummy zerk really hates your guts XD
 

Hadoblado

think again losers
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Lol Gopher I literally just opened up a streaming site to watch ep. 08 while waiting for the countdown.

Give people some time to think their own thoughts before you counter case etc. We've got three days, so if you left it 24 hours I think that would make sure people have ample opportunity while not depriving us of the chance to get our licks in.

Nice work getting it together in downtime. I took a break :P
 
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