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Feminism?

citrusbreath95

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Well for me, it's good because I share no interests that the stereotypical woman does. In history the home is the woman's domain, and the children as well, and being INTP, this would create a problem for me if this was only optional for me. I believe in feminism to the point of equal opportunity for women. I don't believe in it in means of stating that men and women are the same (as clearly men and women differ rather greatly) but I do believe they should be given equal opportunity to make their life as they desire. Therefore, treated as equals. I suppose feminism (correct me if I'm wrong) could have caused/cause several problems:

1. Being that because women are granted more opportunity in employment it disrupts order in the household. The kids are affected greatly and the historic approach to the man being the head of the household can be threatened by the female as now she provides for the household as well (in the assumption the woman of the house works)
2. Lack of protection for women? By this I mean that before because women were viewed as lower-class citizens they were seen as being weaker (still are, but not as severly) I think there was more of a need in society to preserve their honor, dignity, and safety. So another problem for this is the decline of such traits, women being targeted more, their lack of self respect decreasing. In a way, I suppose this could also lead to another potential problem;
3. Gender switch. If men were originally placed to care for women and women gain more rights and can care for themselves, presenting this attitude then where does that leave men? Does their attitude of protecting women and taking responsiblity decline over time as a result? Could this also disrupt a natural order to things, resulting in more problems to follow?

I support feminism to the extent of granting equal rights to women (if such didn't exist everything I wanted to do in life wouldn't happen, or be extremely hard to achieve). Although it causes several problems I don't think it's hurt us too harshly. Although women may work more and therefore spend less time at the house, most women find the time to do both, and order in the family still exists. (of course I speak in generalities)
About the video, I understand the point it's making and I agree that women shouldn't be given an advantage over men. Respect for both genders should still exist, and we should still recognize differences, rather than pretend they don't exist. However, to propose biasness over decisions for the mere sake of gender roles, to me, isn't just nor good for society. (In my personal opinion)
 

typus

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I did not watch the video, but I guess I'll write something about feminism at least.

On second thought, what I say about feminism probably would not apply to other countries. Who cares, I'll write some stupid stuff anyway. Here differences in income hardly exist and the only purpose of feminism is to limit freedom of choice. There's also an unwritten rule that EVERY politician has to identify HIMself as a feminist, otherwise he is somehow against equality between men and women. We also have a party called Feministiskt Initiativ, it is led by a woman nobody likes and everything they do is populist, a-whore-esque and based on silly ideological reasons even if it only makes matters worse. It's soon election here and somehow these wackadoodles thought it would be a good idea to burn 100,000 SEK. This apparently was a metaphor about how horrible it is that women have lower salaries than men (0.03% of the 900,000 people had too low salary because of their gender a study by our department for equality. On average they had 96 SEK too low salary (circa $10)). The important questions for feminisms now is to force people to divide the parental leave (that's what Google translate said it was called in English. You know, it's when someone has a baby and they take time off work because of it?) so that both parents take at least 1/3 of it. I really do not understand why. Oh, also the other important question for these wackos is to force companies to disregard competence and instead hire people because of their gender. This is because if it's a 50/50 divide between women and men in a workplace it looks good in the statistics, never mind the discrimination.


Feminism had its purposes here earlier and it's still needed in other countries, but in Sweden it just leads to inequality.
 

EyeSeeCold

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Objectively, feminisim is a double-edge sword. Yes it brings more independence and opportunities for women, but the goal of equalization in the eyes of men is in direct opposition to how the majority of women like to be treated. Personally, I really don't care about the movement and I don't advocate arbitrary chivalry, but I do value female independence.
 

Ermine

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I think feminism as a whole is self contradictory. I am female, I'm all for equal rights for men and women. Gender discrimination is still an issue in the workplace I want resolved (eg. women often get lower salaries than their male counterparts). Maternity leave is great. I think society should be such that women have the ability to do whatever they want with their lives, be it a stay at home mom, working at whatever vocation they choose, or both.

That being said, it seems that feminism can go a bit far. It often goes to the point of putting men down and proclaiming women superior. This is bigotry just as much as sexism directed toward women, racism, or whatever. Really, is it all that hard to understand the concept of "different but equal"? Feminism had its place, but we all just need to get over ourselves and treat everyone with the respect we'd give ourselves.
 

kazd362

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Feminism is a good thing... to an extent.

I think Feminism is good when it campaigns for equal rights and equal pay, but when it gets to things like putting down a man for holding a door open for a women or pulling a chair out for her, then it is not good. Also changing terms like mankind is probably going a bit too far.

I also think that men and women are not equal, for example men are better in certain areas and women are better at other areas. In saying that though women should not be discouraged from entering jobs that maybe men are better at and vice versa.
 

Minuend

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That video was full of holes.

You have to realize when feminism "started", women were used to being treated very poorly. This gave a bit of an aggressive touch in the beginning. Burning bras and whatnot.

Even today, both genders are being seen through a stereotypical lens. Some women are still aggressive because they've been treated less when growing up. This does not represent feminists as a whole.

We still treat genders as genders. We enforce images we claim not to believe in anymore. If you watch a cartoon for children, you can see what role models they have. The treatment of sexes will never change as long as we are influenced like this our whole lives. Men don't think women can drive. Women think males incapable of nurturing.

The video says men are being dragged out in the media when they commit crimes or generally when there's something negative to tell. Just yesterday I read in the newspaper about a mother who killed her own child. I've also read about women being more violent in partnerships and so. Violent women aren't hidden here.

You must also realize that men are in the news when they do good as well.

There was more, but my memory sucks so..

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Feminism is obviously a good thing for me. Without it, I'd be dependent on other people. I wouldn't have any freedom (not that we aren't our own slaves anyway, but at least now we have more enjoyable prisons with playstations). If you read a bit on how females were being treated before, or how they are still being treated in some countries, I don't think that many would want to return. Sure there'd be a female or two who just likes to suffer that much. But I think some doesn't really understand how fortunate we are.

It's not just about staying home and clean the house all day. The lack of freedom is rooted in everything you do, everything you think. Your opinion isn't valued, your being is just for housekeeping, children and sex. You are a fragile, weak thing that can't be exposed to anything real.

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Caused problems. In this regard it seems a bit unfair question. Any change of society causes some level of difficulty, no matter if the change itself is labeled good or bad.


1. Being that because women are granted more opportunity in employment it disrupts order in the household. The kids are affected greatly and the historic approach to the man being the head of the household can be threatened by the female as now she provides for the household as well (in the assumption the woman of the house works)

That kinda makes it sounds like the female is to blame. The equal female can't be expected to stay at home. It is as much the working father's fault as it is the mother's.

And the question still remains; does two working parents disrupt the family?

If you are pointing to increase in divorce, certainly that has plenty of other reasons. (For instance that it's legal). I don't think marriage is anything sacred either. I don't believe you can love the same person your entire life. Sure you can be fond of hir, but love? I see nothing wrong with splitting up.

2. Lack of protection for women? By this I mean that before because women were viewed as lower-class citizens they were seen as being weaker (still are, but not as severly) I think there was more of a need in society to preserve their honor, dignity, and safety. So another problem for this is the decline of such traits, women being targeted more, their lack of self respect decreasing. In a way, I suppose this could also lead to another potential problem;

A victim is a victim, man or female. Females being targeting more is neither good nor bad in that respect.

I don't know what you mean by lack of self respect.

3. Gender switch. If men were originally placed to care for women and women gain more rights and can care for themselves, presenting this attitude then where does that leave men? Does their attitude of protecting women and taking responsiblity decline over time as a result? Could this also disrupt a natural order to things, resulting in more problems to follow?

As we created new roles for women, we do the same with men. But personally, I don't think the men so dependent on the female's fragile nature to find purpose in their lives.

Oh, also the other important question for these wackos is to force companies to disregard competence and instead hire people because of their gender. This is because if it's a 50/50 divide between women and men in a workplace it looks good in the statistics, never mind the discrimination.

Actually, that is a problem whether you use affirmative action or not. Some job interviewers will still choose employees based on gender. I'm not really pro AA, but I see the problem with not having it as well.

I think generally, people see men as better mechanics and women as better nurses. Even in Sweden.

That being said, it seems that feminism can go a bit far. It often goes to the point of putting men down and proclaiming women superior.

That is feminism as much as blowing things up is religion.

Really, is it all that hard to understand the concept of "different but equal"?

Yes, it is, actually, Because of our limitations of mind. We are too influenced by our environment. We are blinded by own expectations and wants. We, subconsciously or consciously, treat people different.

To me it seems most are fond of generalizations <-- myself as well, apparently.
And I think, in psychology, this is because it helps us navigate in the world. If we've seen one chair, we expect another one to offer us the same comfortable seat, without knowing both personally. It is needed, even though we sometimes risk seating ourselves on a painfully uncomfortable chair.

Some have problems separating majority from everybody. Majority is 51% or more. Some will think majority is 99% all the time.
 

typus

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Actually, that is a problem whether you use affirmative action or not. Some job interviewers will still choose employees based on gender. I'm not really pro AA, but I see the problem with not having it as well.

I think generally, people see men as better mechanics and women as better nurses. Even in Sweden.

Well, I would prefer to avoid making discrimination a legal obligation and instead maybe simplify the process of reporting discrimination or something more in that direction. It might just be me, but I don't think legal discrimination is a good solution to illegal discrimination.
And yes, I think most people have thoughts like that although I think in most cases it's not consciously and I'm quite sure not that many act on them.
 

Lobstrich

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Feminism is a good thing... to an extent.

I think Feminism is good when it campaigns for equal rights and equal pay, but when it gets to things like putting down a man for holding a door open for a women or pulling a chair out for her, then it is not good. Also changing terms like mankind is probably going a bit too far.

I also think that men and women are not equal, for example men are better in certain areas and women are better at other areas. In saying that though women should not be discouraged from entering jobs that maybe men are better at and vice versa.


There we go.. Now I don't have to write anything. Thanks =)
 

ProxyAmenRa

Here to bring back the love!
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I dislike the idea of giving people special consideration because they belong to what ever demographic. I don't believe in a egalitarian society where everyone is forced to be equal. Redistributing wealth because of a perceived demographic being detrimentally effected by the characteristics that define their demographic is in essence stealing. Stealing life, liberty and property.

In circumstances where a man and a woman have the same job and expend the same amount of labour to produce the same amount of produce they should be payed the same. Wages should reflect productivity. If I only could produce half the amount in the same amount of time I should be payed half of the total wage. Such wages are based off supply and demand in the market place for that particular labour commodity. Coercing special consideration and paying full wages to those that only produce half capacity is a miss allocation of resources in the economy. Miss allocation of resources is bad for the economy as a whole.

In addition, people should not be given special consideration due to the life choices they make. In Australia at the moment there is momentum in the political arena for paid parental leave because people would like to be payed by the government to have children at tax payers' expense. However, the tax payers' did not coerce these people into making the choice so remedy is not warranted. The choice was their own. They should bare full responsibility for their actions not expect to be free riders. If they want to have children they must save up the capital to do so.

Having children is not a right. It is not a privilege. It is a choice. There is risk involved with every choice we make. Want to mitigate the risk? Save or buy insurance.

If the employer does not give consideration to a specific demographic? Bad luck. The demographic should seek alternative employment before making a decision.
 

Melkor

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Oh I'm a feminist alright!
I hail and longingly await the rise of our kinky booted overlords!
No really, I think world governments need more of a womans touch. I could do with a womans touch, or several!:P
But they musn't be allowed to make magazines, design buildings, write *shudder* dark romance or have anything to do with robotics unless they're gender neutral.
 

citrusbreath95

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That kinda makes it sounds like the female is to blame. The equal female can't be expected to stay at home. It is as much the working father's fault as it is the mother's.

And the question still remains; does two working parents disrupt the family?

If you are pointing to increase in divorce, certainly that has plenty of other reasons. (For instance that it's legal). I don't think marriage is anything sacred either. I don't believe you can love the same person your entire life. Sure you can be fond of hir, but love? I see nothing wrong with splitting up.

No I'm not blaming the female of the house (I was trying to be unbiased in stating the problems) I was just raising the question of whether or not this could cause additional problems to the household. Yet, that isn't to say the problems can't be fixed, like you stated the male of the house can also take such role, and both can work together so that not only are the two working but also getting things done in the house. As for divorce, I think perhaps it does contribute to such, but it wouldn't necessarily be the working part of it, but perhaps the emotions that go into such. That's not to say feminism is to blame.


A victim is a victim, man or female. Females being targeting more is neither good nor bad in that respect.

True but because of feminism women aren't viewed as being the weaker genders (not as much as before anyway) and so therefore hostility towards them increases as there is an understanding that they can defend themselves. I'm not saying this is necessarily a bad thing, just that it's a consequence of such.


As we created new roles for women, we do the same with men. But personally, I don't think the men so dependent on the female's fragile nature to find purpose in their lives.

Yes I agree, and I wasn't stating that men's only purpose is to protect women (though it does play a large role in the family, especially in the past) only that men wouldn't feel compelled to defend women as they can now defend themselves (and this is good, especially for me as I'm independant.) the only problem I was making with this is that this could be portrayed to all women, whether they participate in feminism or not, and lack of respect for women could decline. (By this I'm not saying eliminate, and I'm not saying only women need to be respected, but rather both genders for their differences, and if that respect level decreases, could something bad result?)

Please don't misinterpret what I'm stating, I am for feminism as my life wouldn't be fulfilled in the future for me without such. I was just stating that with such comes problems, yet with all changes whether good or bad comes problems, but with feminism I think the pros outweight the cons. Especially for women.
 

Minuend

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Well, I would prefer to avoid making discrimination a legal obligation and instead maybe simplify the process of reporting discrimination or something more in that direction. It might just be me, but I don't think legal discrimination is a good solution to illegal discrimination.
And yes, I think most people have thoughts like that although I think in most cases it's not consciously and I'm quite sure not that many act on them.

Yeah, I don't think it a good solution.

I do think most people have subcouncious biases towards genders they act on. But now I'm refering to details.

Something I noticed in myself is that whenever I see a car making a bad move, I think, for a split second, that it must be a woman driving. I was quite surprised when I discovered this reasoning. And I probably have more that I don't realize.

I also often hear things like "bah, men" or " women are such gossipers". Maybe it is a result of confirmation bias or an unfortunate circle of people, but I don't think people are "better" than that.

Oh I'm a feminist alright!
I hail and longingly await the rise of our kinky booted overlords!
No really, I think world governments need more of a womans touch. I could do with a womans touch, or several!:P
But they musn't be allowed to make magazines, design buildings, write *shudder* dark romance or have anything to do with robotics unless they're gender neutral.

Well, I agree. I'm going to be a sexy female robot when I grow up, though. I'm going to be one of those transformers who change into digital data so that I can transfer myself to videogames and live there whenever I get bored with slauthering feeble humans with a paper clip.

Please don't misinterpret what I'm stating, I am for feminism as my life wouldn't be fulfilled in the future for me without such. I was just stating that with such comes problems, yet with all changes whether good or bad comes problems, but with feminism I think the pros outweight the cons. Especially for women.

I understand. (Won't quote the whole thing).

I wasn't trying to say that you are against femnism.
 

Yasmin

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I think my particular problem is with the word "feminism". It seems to denote some sort of female superiority, just as the word "masculism" would. I think I prefer to say I am against sexism, that way, I am suggesting that I support every gender, not just this one or that one.

Second, I highly resent the statement "men are better and some things and women are better at somethings". Where is that basis for that? How could anyone possibly obtain the knowledge of what 3 billion people they've never met, are capable of (I mean mentally, emotionally, etc)?

The video: Two important examples were provided: tennis and some sort of race. The thing is, both of these are matters of physical ability. Yeah, turning the number of sets men did to 3 would have been the best thing to do. The race was somewhat a different matter. It would be false to suggest that men and women are physically identical, or equally capable in a physical race. The solution to this problem, would not, however, been to give women a head start, but rather, to see them perform in different races. It's similar to having eight year olds play on one sports team, and twelve year olds on another.

An argument I found to be particularly valid is that men are very often treated as defective human beings. It makes me queasy how difficult it is to make someone understand that sexism against men is just as vile a practice as sexism against women. I had this one history teacher a few years back who did this all the time. Repeatedly, in situation in which both a male student and a female one were disrupting the class, she would tell the girl to quite down, and kick the guy out of the room for the rest of the class period. That's not okay. The one time I suggested that perhaps sexism goes both ways, she ignored the question. Nice.

Every type of discrimination can go in many directions. Sexism can be against men, women, and those that fall outside of the gender binary. Racism can be against black, whites, and anybody else. There's homophobia and heterosexism. We, as a society, have a real issue with making one group the bad guy and the other the good guy. It's just not that simple.
 

kazd362

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Second, I highly resent the statement "men are better and some things and women are better at somethings". Where is that basis for that? How could anyone possibly obtain the knowledge of what 3 billion people they've never met, are capable of (I mean mentally, emotionally, etc)?

Well you can't really test 3 billion people, but on a general study you could obtain an idea of what aptitudes males and females have.
 

AnExperimentalTom

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I'm for equality; and I will treat everyone person equally. I won't go out of my way to nicer to women that men, just as I won't be nicer to men than women.

A lot of my female friends harp on about equality and all that, but when it comes down to my treating them the same way I do my male friends they scream about being treated badly or unfairly. A lot of them though wouldn't class themselves as feminists.

I personally think that feminism is a bad thing. My experience with actual feminists, or those friends that lean towards it is to try a separate men from them as much as possible, and link ANYTHING negative to men. A lot of them (not all) are becoming the very thing (sometimes worse than) they are trying to protest against.

At the end of the day there are somethings that men are naturally better suited to doing, just like there are other things women have evolved to be better at.
 

LabyrinthMind

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I used to study the history of feminist movement from XIX century onwards. Also explored recent feminist theories (term feminism covers a wide range of theoretical and activist approaches regarding gender issues). The significance of feminism in reflecting upon and reshaping traditional women's roles can hardly be overestimated.

I agree the feminism has almost served its purpose in rich countries and it would be more adequate to refer to the present theoretical debate as postfeminist. However, feminist education and activism is still badly needed in most countries due to persistent patriarchal societal structure.

I wish to emphasize once more it's illegitimate to make normative judgments on whether feminism is good or bad neglecting profound differences among various feminisms.
 
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