Existential Crisis

[Vegard Pompey]

It has always been a large issue for me. I'm not sure how it relates to INTPness, or if it does, so I'm just gonna go ahead and ask. I recall INTPs being prone to analysing the world around them so it would seem logical that I am not the only one on the verge of collapsing under the scope of existence.

 

[Inappropriate Behavior]

We discussed in the Age thread a theory that the older we INTPs get, the greater the tendency of some of us to act in a sillier manner. That doesn't apply to all of us but some of us it does (like me!).

I bring this up because one of my points behind that theory is that after years of pondering existence in our head, the enormity of it has one of three effects (there may be more). One is to be smothered and eventually crushed. Another is to accept the enormity and your place in it. The third is to just say 'fuck it, it doesn't matter'. The second is difficult to achieve and the third makes you fun to hang out with. Not neccessarily any happier though.

 

[Ermine]

I try to avoid thinking like that for the sake of my sanity, but I am prone to feeling minuscule in the existential sense.

 

[hopefulmonster]

It has always been a large issue for me. I'm not sure how it relates to INTPness, or if it does, so I'm just gonna go ahead and ask. I recall INTPs being prone to analysing the world around them so it would seem logical that I am not the only one on the verge of collapsing under the scope of existence.

I practice a philosophy I like to call optimistic nihilism. Nothing matters but hey I'm ok with that.

 

[Sugarpop]

I practice a philosophy I like to call optimistic nihilism. Nothing matters but hey I'm ok with that.

My stance exactly.

Nihilism seems common with the INTP, but with various opinions on whether its consequences are positive or negative.

 

[Vegard Pompey]

I practice a philosophy I like to call optimistic nihilism. Nothing matters but hey I'm ok with that.

This works only most of the time, I am still occasionally blessed with the joyful experience of being crushed under the concept of size itself.

 

[JoeJoe]

We discussed in the Age thread a theory that the older we INTPs get, the greater the tendency of some of us to act in a sillier manner. That doesn't apply to all of us but some of us it does (like me!).

And Albert Einstein, the greatest INTP of all time!! The picture of him sticking his tongue out was taken on his 70th birthday!!

 

[Perseus]

And now all four Bruces launch into the Philosopher's song)
Immanuel Kant was a real piss-ant who was very rarely stable.
Heideggar, Heideggar was a boozy beggar who could think you under the table.
David Hume could out-consume Wilhelm Freidrich Hegel.
And Whittgenstein was a beery swine who was just as sloshed as Schlegel.
There's nothing Nieizsche couldn't teach 'ya 'bout the raising of the wrist.
Socrates, himself, was permanently pissed.
John Stewart Mill, of his own free will, after half a pint of shanty was particularly ill.
Plato, they say, could stick it away, half a crate of whiskey every day!
Aristotle, Aristotle was a bugger for the bottle,
And Hobbes was fond of his Dram.
And Rene Descartes was a drunken fart:
"I drink, therefore I am."
Yes, Socrates himself is particularly missed;
A lovely little thinker, but a bugger when he's pissed.

http://www.orangecow.org/pythonet/sketches/bruces.htm

More pertinet than the Engineer's Song. Second only to the Architect's Sketch.

 

[Gorgrim]

We discussed in the Age thread a theory that the older we INTPs get, the greater the tendency of some of us to act in a sillier manner. That doesn't apply to all of us but some of us it does (like me!).

I bring this up because one of my points behind that theory is that after years of pondering existence in our head, the enormity of it has one of three effects (there may be more). One is to be smothered and eventually crushed. Another is to accept the enormity and your place in it. The third is to just say 'fuck it, it doesn't matter'. The second is difficult to achieve and the third makes you fun to hang out with. Not neccessarily any happier though.

as i go about my life I try to stick to number 2, but it gets over analyzing and depressing after periods of time in that kind of state.

there are times that its just better to go with the 3rd and get out of your bubble, and not worry about everything. Assuming anybody knows what i mean and that this applies to what you mean.

Since I doubt INTPs would completely forsake their curiosity, at the same time, doubting any would not pause up and let it go for a while, tbh, that makes me abit happier.

but it's hard to imagine for me you could strictly be one way :/

 

[Ancalion]

@ Veg: define existence.

 

[Vegard Pompey]

That is difficult. Consciousness?

 

[Anthile]

When I think about this, it always reminds me of Watchmen. All humans are puppets, but INTPs are usually puppets who can see their strings and sometimes they even now the script. They sense the volatileness and futility of every earthly thing and they can´t do anything against it. Some of us are paralyzed by this, like me and the others try to cut through the strings or just don´t care about anything and seek their refuge in mundane pleasures.


At last, that is what I think.

 

[Ancalion]

Or some of us, including me, try to get to another plane of consciousness to overthrow our so called "master".

 

[Da Blob]

Or some of us, including me, try to get to another plane of consciousness to overthrow our so called "master".

No such thing as a Free Spirit in this regard
you have one Master or the Other
there is an illusion of Freedom given
as long as you follow The Plan
but just try to rebel and...

Choking... can't finish message... watch out for th

 

[Sapphire Harp]

When I think about this, it always reminds me of Watchmen. All humans are puppets, but INTPs are usually puppets who can see their strings and sometimes they even now the script. They sense the volatileness and futility of every earthly thing and they can´t do anything against it. Some of us are paralyzed by this, like me and the others try to cut through the strings or just don´t care about anything and seek their refuge in mundane pleasures.

That's pretty close to how I understand it, but it's not the strings I think. I'd simply say the big picture hangs over our heads most of the time. Am I the only one who ponders about what will remain from your life 100 years past your time? Or a thousand?

I find my uncertainties effectively vanish if I can get a decent answer about what something I'd do might mean. Unsure hesitation instantly changes to focused energy and accomplishes!

But the problem, at the end of the day is; what does your whole life mean? What's it for? What are you supposed to do with it? There are lots of little meanings I can find, but I always come back to trying to confront that one.

I know some people fabricate an answer for themselves, but I'd be surprised if that would work for anyone on this forum...

I think I found a fraction of a working answer for it once, something that sank deeply in me when I read it. In the introduction of Gaiman's "Sandman: A Game Of You", the introducer talks about how fragile all the character's identities are, how none of them can be who they want to be without help. He sort of lays out an idea of the game of you where one of the largest reaching actions someone can do is to help affirm and help another construct the self they are trying to be.

Prone to self-dis-illusionment as I (we) are, I found the idea of enormous value and find myself trying to help such individuals when the opportunity arises - but it doesn't appear very often. The bulk of humanity doesn't show need for this help except when they're in crisis.

That context, when it appears, drives my existential crisis away very quickly... But it will be back later, so it's a finite answer for sure.
​

 

[didyouknow]

Some of you may recall on the New Year's Resolutions thread I first said numerous things that I would like to change about myself...

A little while later, I posted again, explained that I had a few drinks before the new answer and gave my new answer, "I decided to live my life devoted to fun and pleasure since humanity is screwed anyway, NoID10ts will be proud "

I go through cycles of these three "stages"... I will get crushed under the weight of the knowledge of our redundancy and then decide to have fun anyway, then go through a period of peace (which usually only lasts a day or two). I once had a whole year's worth of "have fun anyway" and it was great. Too bad it was followed by about 2 weeks of peace and then crushed under the weight again.

That's pretty much where I am now... but I think I'm moving into the 'have fun anyway' cycle

 

[Agent Intellect]

That's pretty close to how I understand it, but it's not the strings I think. I'd simply say the big picture hangs over our heads most of the time. Am I the only one who ponders about what will remain from your life 100 years past your time? Or a thousand?

​

just yesterday i was asking people at work "if scientists are digging up our remains 5000 years from now, what do you think our era will be known for?" obviously i couldn't get any good answers out of them, but its certainly something i wonder about.

by the way, i think we'll be known as the plastic age. they'll find a layer of plastic sediment in the ground from our era (perhaps they'll dig it up as use it as fuel).

on topic, i've always thought about how insignificant i am, even when i was quite young. i think i've learned to almsot detach myself from the thoughts so that they don't affect me too much, but i still get that strange feeling whenever i think of things like the size of infinity, the concept of non-existence, the vast emptiness (and seemingly uselessness) of the universe, the idea of determinism, and of course death (which has always been a rather popular one with me).

 

[JoeJoe]

just yesterday i was asking people at work "if scientists are digging up our remains 5000 years from now, what do you think our era will be known for?" obviously i couldn't get any good answers out of them, but its certainly something i wonder about.

I think our age will be known as the environment-destroying age. The time when all we did was blow CO2 into the environment and pollute as many ecosystems as we could find.

 

[Perseus]

My stance exactly.

Nihilism seems common with the INTP, but with various opinions on whether its consequences are positive or negative.

Nihilism would be verboten to mature INTPs. You cannot make architecture out of nothingness.

 

[JoeJoe]

Nihilism would be verboten to mature INTPs. You cannot make architecture out of nothingness.

Why the heck do you use a German word in the middle of an english sentence?

 

[Da Blob]

That's pretty close to how I understand it, but it's not the strings I think. I'd simply say the big picture hangs over our heads most of the time. Am I the only one who ponders about what will remain from your life 100 years past your time? Or a thousand?

I find my uncertainties effectively vanish if I can get a decent answer about what something I'd do might mean. Unsure hesitation instantly changes to focused energy and accomplishes!

But the problem, at the end of the day is; what does your whole life mean? What's it for? What are you supposed to do with it? There are lots of little meanings I can find, but I always come back to trying to confront that one.

I know some people fabricate an answer for themselves, but I'd be surprised if that would work for anyone on this forum...

I think I found a fraction of a working answer for it once, something that sank deeply in me when I read it. In the introduction of Gaiman's "Sandman: A Game Of You", the introducer talks about how fragile all the character's identities are, how none of them can be who they want to be without help. He sort of lays out an idea of the game of you where one of the largest reaching actions someone can do is to help affirm and help another construct the self they are trying to be.

Prone to self-dis-illusionment as I (we) are, I found the idea of enormous value and find myself trying to help such individuals when the opportunity arises - but it doesn't appear very often. The bulk of humanity doesn't show need for this help except when they're in crisis.

That context, when it appears, drives my existential crisis away very quickly... But it will be back later, so it's a finite answer for sure.
​

Oddly enough there might been a grain of truth in the premise of Sandman, constructing Self and establishing Identity, that the strong should support the weak. Very few people can be confident in their answers to the questions "Who Am I" and "Why am I"

As a counselor, I found that simply helping clients answer those questions is about the most realistic goal that can be reached in the therapeutic relationship.

In therapy, I start from the premise that we are not born Humans, merely Primates and that the "Road to Fulfillment" involves a process of becoming "Fully Human" For those of my clients that have a drug problem, this process had a motto.

JUST GROW UP, SO YOU WILL BE ABLE, TO JUST SAY "NO"...
(to drugs, depression, whatever)

 

[Madoness]

It has always been a large issue for me. I'm not sure how it relates to INTPness, or if it does, so I'm just gonna go ahead and ask. I recall INTPs being prone to analysing the world around them so it would seem logical that I am not the only one on the verge of collapsing under the scope of existence.

There are so many people, who act out of emotion, rather than logic. This is why the world seems to collapse, as there is no way to figure out some things.

 

[Reluctantly]

This is a huge problem for me. I just recently accepted the fact that I am an INTP after giving the MBTI theory a couple years of thought, as well as socionics and a couple books of slightly different theory about MBTI.

I've always seen identity as an illusion. I try on many roles in an effort to understand them. But it's very tiring and it doesn't last long and I need to detach from it all and sort everything out to make everything fit as best I can; then I go back and re-engage the world with a new identity. And sometimes I believe I have found one that is supposed to be my true self. Something I was supposed to be. But it never lasts, even if things are going well... I never feel it is real. I just want to know how everything works. Can't that be a personality? 'Someone who wants to know how everything works and why people act the way they do and do the things they do.' Is that unreasonable? Is that the problem? Personality is supposed to be how a person presents themselves to the rest of the people in the world. If an INTP is a personality then when does 'no personality' crossover with the INTP personality?

Why is it then so important to people to have a personality? What the hell does it matter if something feels good when you can't even figure what that means or why you should feel that way or if it has much of a purpose when existence is just a huge mystery. There's no rationalization for existence. Philosophy is an attempt to explain the unexplainable. We're little pawns in this personality game and at the same time we are much more aware of that fact then the majority of the human world.

Maybe 'no personality' should be a distinction. One that interacts with changing masks to figure out the world around them, appreciate what they learn a little bit when they can, and then die. Maybe people should have more appreciation for their world than to submit it to a blind state of philosophical personality belief. That's all anything is really with human beings 'philosophical personality belief'. Each type has their own core philosophical beliefs of how humans should live and be treated that are directly reflective of their type. Personalities are biased and blind. Why confuse an already paradoxical existence with extra layers of propaganda? I feel like we are supposed to be understanding and appreciating our world, yet human beings spend more time building ways to do the opposite with their personalities.

The greater truth is that I don't want a damn personality. I never freakin' did. And that's the problem, isn't it?...

No, that's not right...I contradicted myself. It's so damn frustrating. Their is nothing anyone can say that won't be vulnerable to a discrediting argument. And that's the god damn problem...anything can be anything. The more I know the more unsure and frustrated I become.

 

[Moocow]

This is a huge problem for me. I just recently accepted the fact that I am an INTP after giving the MBTI theory a couple years of thought, as well as socionics and a couple books of slightly different theory about MBTI.

I've always seen identity as an illusion. I try on many roles in an effort to understand them. But it's very tiring and it doesn't last long and I need to detach from it all and sort everything out to make everything fit as best I can; then I go back and re-engage the world with a new identity. And sometimes I believe I have found one that is supposed to be my true self. Something I was supposed to be. But it never lasts, even if things are going well... I never feel it is real. I just want to know how everything works. Can't that be a personality? 'Someone who wants to know how everything works and why people act the way they do and do the things they do.' Is that unreasonable? Is that the problem? Personality is supposed to be how a person presents themselves to the rest of the people in the world. If an INTP is a personality then when does 'no personality' crossover with the INTP personality?

Why is it then so important to people to have a personality? What the hell does it matter if something feels good when you can't even figure what that means or why you should feel that way or if it has much of a purpose when existence is just a huge mystery. There's no rationalization for existence. Philosophy is an attempt to explain the unexplainable. We're little pawns in this personality game and at the same time we are much more aware of that fact then the majority of the human world.

Maybe 'no personality' should be a distinction. One that interacts with changing masks to figure out the world around them, appreciate what they learn a little bit when they can, and then die. Maybe people should have more appreciation for their world than to submit it to a blind state of philosophical personality belief. That's all anything is really with human beings 'philosophical personality belief'. Each type has their own core philosophical beliefs of how humans should live and be treated that are directly reflective of their type. Personalities are biased and blind. Why confuse an already paradoxical existence with extra layers of propaganda? I feel like we are supposed to be understanding and appreciating our world, yet human beings spend more time building ways to do the opposite with their personalities.

The greater truth is that I don't want a damn personality. I never freakin' did. And that's the problem, isn't it?...

No, that's not right...I contradicted myself. It's so damn frustrating. Their is nothing anyone can say that won't be vulnerable to a discrediting argument. And that's the god damn problem...anything can be anything. The more I know the more unsure and frustrated I become.

"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt." - Bertrand Russell

Socrates was famous for claiming that he truly knows nothing. His understanding of knowledge for what it is, is part of what made him wise.

 

[Mondorius]

I bring this up because one of my points behind that theory is that after years of pondering existence in our head, the enormity of it has one of three effects (there may be more). One is to be smothered and eventually crushed. Another is to accept the enormity and your place in it. The third is to just say 'fuck it, it doesn't matter'. The second is difficult to achieve and the third makes you fun to hang out with. Not neccessarily any happier though.

I... I think I do all three, in phases...

Sometimes, I get crushed and I then proceed to crush whatever I'd been doing.

Then, I'll spend a while thinking and I'll stumble across an interesting idea and I'll come to accept the world and my place in it, for a bit at least.

...and eventually I just laugh it all off and don't care anymore.

Rinse & repeat.

Why the heck do you use a German word in the middle of an english sentence?

I do it all the time, spontaneously. I'd say it's the kind of thing that might happen when you're interested in various languages but don't particularly focus on any. You know, you have this idea in your head you wanna talk about, and you can choose between 3 different languages to express it, but for some reason you can't quite pull the word in the right language out so instead of stuttering or pausing or something like that, you just pick another language... or sometimes I find words in different languages to carry more emphasis or impact...

As a counselor, I found that simply helping clients answer those questions is about the most realistic goal that can be reached in the therapeutic relationship.

Well, my own motto is that you can't force anything on anyone, at least in a therapy context, since I guess you could try to manipulate them otherwise. So yeah, I'd agree that helping people finding their own answers is pretty much the only thing you can do.

Also, identity is largely related to one's environment, so yes, Sandman would be on the right track. Things like common sense, values and all that depend mostly on the society you're living in and the most important people in your life.

But I'm not satisfied with that. While having an identity related to your environment has kind of a relieving feeling, it doesn't satisfy me. Who am I without these people? This society? Nothing? So yeah, not happy with that answer at all.

 

[Lostwitheal]

It has always been a large issue for me. I'm not sure how it relates to INTPness, or if it does, so I'm just gonna go ahead and ask. I recall INTPs being prone to analysing the world around them so it would seem logical that I am not the only one on the verge of collapsing under the scope of existence.

You are not alone.

The entirety of human existence is such a small part of reality that it would make barely a ripple on the surface thereof if we simply blinked out of existence. That's the inescapable truth of it, which we cannot control.

What we can control is how we react to this - either you let the futility of it all grind you to dust or you have some fun.

I like this quote:

The world is your exercise-book, the pages on which you do your sums.
It is not reality, although you can express reality there if you wish. You are also free to write nonsense, or lies, or to tear the pages.

 

[snafupants]

It is impossible to comprehend god(s) - if he, she, it, they can be said to exist - with the human sensory apparatus. Please do not strain yourself trying (I have, and it hurts).

My father is fond of espousing three reasons for living. First, make a minor contribution to humanity. Second, do not damage the planet, and preferably leave it in better condition. Third, experience a little pleasure in your life - life the everyday variety.

I always tell him that three sort of enables one and two. Seriously, if you feel like crap from living an unfulfilling, spartan existence, how much can you love anything (including yourself)?

 

[cheese]

It is impossible to comprehend god(s) - if he, she, it, they can be said to exist - with the human sensory apparatus. Please do not strain yourself trying (I have, and it hurts).

My father is fond of espousing three reasons for living. First, make a minor contribution to humanity. Second, do not damage the planet, and preferably leave it in better condition. Third, experience a little pleasure in your life - life the everyday variety.

I always tell him that three sort of enables one and two. Seriously, if you feel like crap from living an unfulfilling, spartan existence, how much can you love anything (including yourself)?

Actually, I was reading about Mother Teresa recently (perhaps linked from this forum? I can't remember) and she was absolutely miserable most of her serving life - devastated from the connection with God that seemed to disappear once she started her ministry. And man, she did a fair bit of humanity-contribution. So I guess it is possible, as long as you keep making the decision to rise above yourself and your circumstances.