Basic Guidelines for Social Success

[Moocow]

No. It is NOT exactly like that. The two situations are SPECTACULARLY unrelated. You're afraid that if you get some success, you're just going to want more and more. I understand. That's a legitimate fear. I think that's what limited me for a long time, too. I've come to understand that I had the wrong ideas about how to achieve success, and what success would be like.

You're not going to get that girl by waiting for her. Girls don't just fall in your lap, not the good ones. You have to work for them, chase them, earn their respect. You sit around waiting for a miracle, and you're going to wind up having to settle for something mediocre or cruddy. Someone you aren't really attracted to. Because we both know that no one is really willing to go through life without getting together with someone.

Control what you can control. I never felt like I was a witty person, or very articulate, and I blamed that for difficulty with relationships and women. Now I see that there are things that I can control that will help me. I can learn a lot about different subjects. I can play the guitar well. I can get in really good shape, and keep good hygiene and a nice place. All very attractive things--and you know what else? They boost my confidence, and that makes me more witty and articulate. Once you see a path you're willing to take, your motivation may change.

You know, I don't really disagree with you because my experience corroborates what you're saying as well. I just don't think that relative confidence and success necessitates stepping on people's faces and promoting common hatred, but people do those things anyways because they are addicted to accumulation. When you aspire for something more you're degrading the beauty of what you had already, and some people are simply too ungrateful to consider ethics.

Read about the Democratic Republic of Congo to get a global scale example of what I mean.

 

[Kuu]

Is it troll feeding season already?

 

[zago]

I never said that 'deep people' do not care about looks. You obviously do not get what I'm saying, at all. I said that people should be friends with me because of me. And not ANYTHING else. Not the 'deep' books I read, not my intellectual opinions, not my fucking bronze and not my clothes. They should be friends with me because they like me, simple.

I addressed this notion earlier in the thread. People don't like other people for nothing. You need to have certain qualities in order to be of value to people. There is no essential "you" that is separate from all the things you know, all your abilities, your personality, your looks, etc. You ARE those things. If people don't like you for your intellectual opinions, your tan, or your clothes, or any external thing like that, then what are they supposed to like about you? What are YOU?

Go down the list. Take a look at the people you like. What do you like about them? Do they make you laugh? Are they intelligent? Do they have cool talents? Are they fun to be around, always with something to do? Are they loyal to you? Do they listen to you?

You don't like anyone for "themselves." You like them for what they've made of themselves; for what their value is to you. It is impossible to like someone for no reason.

 

[zago]

You know, I don't really disagree with you because my experience corroborates what you're saying as well. I just don't think that relative confidence and success necessitates stepping on people's faces and promoting common hatred, but people do those things anyways because they are addicted to accumulation. When you aspire for something more you're degrading the beauty of what you had already, and some people are simply too ungrateful to consider ethics.

I have been through that whole Zen Buddhist thing. I mean, I was into it fucking hardcore for a long time. I meditated almost every day for 3 years. No one knows this stuff like I do. I've actually thought about this kind of thing a lot recently. You see, I used to try to figure out ways to make my job appeal to me and avoid aspiring for anything better. I thought to myself, I will always be this happy, no matter what I obtain. This simply isn't true. It made my life meaningless. Now I see my job for what it is. I baby sit a bunch of people until they get to prison, and it is a wretched job. It is right for me to aspire to something better, something more meaningful. Sure, I am pretty happy now, but here's why:

Aspiration is unavoidable. Remember how I said that there is no such thing as a person without fear, without jealousy, without worry, without pride, etc.? There's also no such thing as a person without aspiration. You can't destroy your aspirations. They are there for a reason. We are meant to make the most of ourselves, not navel-gaze. I spent a long time trying to destroy my aspiration. I wanted to get enlightened, so that I would be permanently happy with whatever situation I was in no matter what. I remember one time specifically, in a kind of mental agony, asking myself how I would handle being put in a concentration camp: could I be happy there, I asked. I thought I should be able to.

The real answer was no. No, I could not be happy in a concentration camp. If I were in a concentration camp, it would fucking suck, and I would make that perfectly clear to myself and whoever else wanted to listen to me. Being in a concentration camp, the only peace I would be able to find would come from the active effort to get out of the camp. To try to destroy aspiration is to stomp on yourself, and declare yourself broken when really you are not.

Buddhism is tricky. Pay attention to the present moment? What present moment? If I'm eating an apple, what should I pay attention to? The taste? The color? The sound? Sure, I'll pay attention to the present moment, but it will be whatever I feel like paying attention to. I savor every last thought that comes to my mind. Fuck trying to change it. If something sucks, it sucks. If I want more, I want more. If I aspire, I aspire.

Read about the Democratic Republic of Congo to get a global scale example of what I mean.

This is haughty. If you have something to teach me about the Democratic Republic of Congo, go ahead and tell me about it. I ain't about to go research something I had no prior interest in just so I can see if you have a point or not.

 

[Moocow]

This is haughty. If you have something to teach me about the Democratic Republic of Congo, go ahead and tell me about it. I ain't about to go research something I had no prior interest in just so I can see if you have a point or not.

It's the same old story of capitalist third-world exploitation, just a lot more brutal and unrelenting. Our lives of technological progress and comfort are essentially stolen out of the hands of the defenseless others. Congo is (one of?) the only place in the world that has the mineral coltan, which is needed for cell phones and most other electronics. When our demand for playstations and iphones spikes, oppression, deaths and torture in congo spike as well.

You didn't really respond to my point, which was about needing exploitation to maintain aspiration. Why does exploitation, even in the minor form of group-hatred have to be necessary for successful socializing? It appears to me to be a mark of unnecessary excess, from addiction, overcompensation, or whatever other reason. There is a point at which you have to find a better outlet for ambition.

 

[zago]

It's the same old story of capitalist third-world exploitation, just a lot more brutal and unrelenting. Our lives of technological progress and comfort are essentially stolen out of the hands of the defenseless others. Congo is (one of?) the only place in the world that has the mineral coltan, which is needed for cell phones and most other electronics. When our demand for playstations and iphones spikes, oppression, deaths and torture in congo spike as well.

My point here is about needing exploitation to maintain aspiration. Why does exploitation, even in the minor form of group-hatred have to be necessary for successful socializing? It appears to me to be a mark of unnecessary excess or perhaps addiction.

I won't turn this into a debate about politics, that's for another thread. However, I fail to see how I have advocated exploitation or group-hatred.

 

[Moocow]

#3 and #16 together gave me that impression. I like talking about people but I try to keep it neutral or positive as long as it's about the individual. In the case of talking about why someone is so shitty, wouldn't it ideally be more productive to focus on the larger reasons governing that?

 

[Moocow]

Also I'd say that while yes, committing to life-long buddhist selflessness is self-defeating... a full deconstruction of the self appears to be a necessary precursor to changing deeply set habits and developing fresh skills in the most thorough way. In that sense you don't have to practice every day forever, but it helps to return to it for a break and re-evaluation.

 

[Lobstrich]

No, it is objective. Objectively, getting a decent tone at the tanning bed takes 2 or 3 sessions of 10-20 minutes of lying on a tanning bed, which costs no more than 20 dollars total. You come out the same person, but with mildly darker skin. In terms of your total time expenditures, money expenditures, and energy expenditures, this is OBJECTIVELY no big deal.

Your ignorance is astonishing.. It is subjective. For some people 20 dollars is alot. And for some people 20 minutes is alot. If you cannot acknowledge that, then there is nothing further to be gained for me by talking to you.

 

[zago]

#3 and #16 together gave me that impression. I like talking about people but I try to keep it neutral or positive as long as it's about the individual. In the case of talking about why someone is so shitty, wouldn't it be more productive to focus on the larger reasons governing that?

Why talk trash about someone unless it is deserved? I said 'even if' they are disliked. But there is nothing wrong with having a common enemy. If one person can dislike someone, why can't another person who dislikes the same person discuss it with the first? I never said I was perfect. I stay careful about this, because I know trash talking behind people's backs is often a recipe for trouble. Generally it is done in moderation, with close friends who you can trust not to go around telling everyone about how you hate so-and-so. I mean, if I hate my boss, I don't go around my job dissing him to everyone I see behind his back. Maybe I'd bring it up with a close friend. Close relationships are defined in part by the level of disclosure each party provides. The more personal the information which can be comfortably disclosed, the closer the friendship. 2 good friends often seem sociopathic and distasteful to other people because they can share the grittiest shit with each other without batting an eye. That's just how human relationships work.

 

[Lobstrich]

You don't like anyone for "themselves." You like them for what they've made of themselves; for what their value is to you. It is impossible to like someone for no reason.

I agree and disagree. I disagree that you can't like anyone for "themselves" because that is what I want people to do with me, to like me for "me" I agree that you can't like anyone "for no reason" That is true. But say my friend likes me because I'm honest and because we have the same taste in music. Where I think you're wrong, is that you are honest and you like X musician/band because you know he'll like you then. It's a principle. It doesn't matter if it's only you tanning or if it's a major thing like religion or politics. Because the minute you start to mold yourself after what other people want, you've lost yourself.

 

[Moocow]

You know what, I think the problem with the thread is that the forcefulness with which you present ideas invites a lot of doubtful nitpicking.

Because having argued about it a bit I understand a little better what you're saying, and I hate to say it for all us *NTPs in general but yielding certain conventions can open up a lot more doors than resisting them will... I know what it's like to be irrationally closed to the most trivial conventions, only to find life much easier when I later adopt them as my own. It's knowing when to strategically yield.

 

[Lobstrich]

Is it troll feeding season already?

Lol, who is trolling?

Spoiler only for Kuu!

Spoiler

I don't want to bring up the bans. But this is what I mean. You've gotten the impression that me, Moo or zago are trolling. That could lead to yet another ban, which wouldn't be alright since I don't think anyone of us are trolling.

 

[Moocow]

I agree and disagree. I disagree that you can't like anyone for "themselves" because that is what I want people to do with me, to like me for "me" I agree that you can't like anyone "for no reason" That is true. But say my friend likes me because I'm honest and because we have the same taste in music. Where I think you're wrong, is that you are honest and you like X musician/band because you know he'll like you then. It's a principle. It doesn't matter if it's only you tanning or if it's a major thing like religion or politics. Because the minute you start to mold yourself after what other people want, you've lost yourself.

You don't lose yourself. Your identity is only as limited as you want it to be. If you allow a little bit of someone else into your own, you might be pleased to find they'll do the same of you. It's a compliment, really.

 

[zago]

Your ignorance is astonishing.. It is subjective. For some people 20 dollars is alot. And for some people 20 minutes is alot. If you cannot acknowledge that, then there is nothing further to be gained for me by talking to you.

If you're typing on a home computer right now, 20 dollars is not a lot to you. It's a lot to the starving people in Africa, but not to you. And if you are so busy that 20 minutes is a lot to you, why the hell have you spent this whole evening on an internet forum? Even though this is probably one of the most important discussions you'll ever have in your entire life, and you'll look back on it as formative, so in reality this time has been incredibly productive for you, you are being ridiculous. I refer you to Snake Bite! ...Or Not.

 

[Lobstrich]

It's knowing when to strategically yield.

Yield?... Yield??.. YIIEELD?! Blasphemer! Burn him! *Brings out a torch and pitchfork*

 

[Lobstrich]

If you're typing on a home computer right now, 20 dollars is not a lot to you. It's a lot to the starving people in Africa, but not to you. And if you are so busy that 20 minutes is a lot to you, why the hell have you spent this whole evening on an internet forum? Even though this is probably one of the most important discussions you'll ever have in your entire life, and you'll look back on it as formative, so in reality this time has been incredibly productive for you, you are being ridiculous. I refer you to Snake Bite! ...Or Not.

Like I've said before, twice I think. I never said that 20 minutes and 20 dollars were alot for me. All I was saying is that it's subjective while you act as if it's objective. I do not like it when people do that. It's ignorant.

 

[Lobstrich]

You don't lose yourself. Your identity is only as limited as you want it to be. If you allow a little bit of someone else into your own, you might be pleased to find they'll do the same of you. It's a compliment, really.

I agree. Maybe I just have a very hard time compromising, at all.

And how is it a compliment (or an insult, for that matter) when you're giving me advice? I can't see it, heh.

 

[Moocow]

I agree. Maybe I just have a very hard time compromising, at all.

And how is it a compliment (or an insult, for that matter) when you're giving me advice? I can't see it, heh.

No I meant it's a compliment if someone else adopts something you identify with because of your relationship to them.


miscommunication ITT.

 

[zago]

I agree and disagree. I disagree that you can't like anyone for "themselves" because that is what I want people to do with me, to like me for "me" I agree that you can't like anyone "for no reason" That is true. But say my friend likes me because I'm honest and because we have the same taste in music. Where I think you're wrong, is that you are honest and you like X musician/band because you know he'll like you then. It's a principle. It doesn't matter if it's only you tanning or if it's a major thing like religion or politics. Because the minute you start to mold yourself after what other people want, you've lost yourself.

Thing is, there is a smorgasbord of things in life to choose from, so why not choose the ones that will benefit you most? I fully understand that there is more music in existence than I could ever listen to in my entire life, and much of it is likable stuff. If I see that someone I want to get to know likes a certain band, it isn't hard for me to check that band out and possibly get into them. That's why I started watching Star Trek, and now I love it. I met someone who I wanted to establish common ground with, and I learned that he liked Star Trek, so I began to watch it for myself. Turns out I love the show. And now we have more common ground.

INTPs need to be wary of an obsession with the esoteric for its own sake. I used to be into all sorts of stuff no one had ever heard of, and I couldn't relate to anyone about anything. These days I see the logic in exposing oneself to some of the more popular stuff out there. A) it is popular for a reason and is often very enjoyable, and B) you can share it with people. It is like becoming fluent in their language. Of all the things in the world to choose from, why not choose some that you are likely to enjoy AND be able to share with other people? Esoteric gems still come up naturally for me, but I see no need to pursue them for their own sake.

 

[zago]

Like I've said before, twice I think. I never said that 20 minutes and 20 dollars were alot for me. All I was saying is that it's subjective while you act as if it's objective. I do not like it when people do that. It's ignorant.

But I'm not talking about starving people. I'm talking about people like US. It is unnecessary for us to broaden our context to the extent that everything we say is meaningless.

 

[boondockbabe]

Popularity is overrated. Needing to be popular is probably a deep seated insecurity. Not ever being popular I'm not sure what the allure is but I can tell you this. I am so totally not interested in wasting all of the energy it would consume trying to impress other people. And how much time do you have to waste pretending you care? I've been to some real "cool" parties. What a waste of time. I would rather have a few Great friends than many Fake friends

 

[zago]

Popularity is overrated. Needing to be popular is probably a deep seated insecurity. Not ever being popular I'm not sure what the allure is but I can tell you this. I am so totally not interested in wasting all of the energy it would consume trying to impress other people. And how much time do you have to waste pretending you care? I've been to some real "cool" parties. What a waste of time. I would rather have a few Great friends than many Fake friends

Popularity isn't overrated. Having a hoard of good people looking out for you is unbeatable. People who were never popular have done a good job of making popularity seem like it isn't all it is cracked up to be, in an attempt to excuse not having it. There are a lot of misconceptions about popularity, and maybe the first of them is that only a select few can be popular. There is no reason for that to be true. Everyone who wants a lot of friends can have a lot of friends. Of course, we will all always have an inner-circle of friends and an outer-circle, but there is no reason not to be someone everyone likes.

 

[Lobstrich]

But I'm not talking about starving people. I'm talking about people like US. It is unnecessary for us to broaden our context to the extent that everything we say is meaningless.

I'm not from the US. And I wasn't talking about starving people in particular either. And 20 dollars/minutes can also be a big deal no matter where you live. Be it the US, EU or Asia.

 

[Lobstrich]

Thing is, there is a smorgasbord of things in life to choose from, so why not choose the ones that will benefit you most? I fully understand that there is more music in existence than I could ever listen to in my entire life, and much of it is likable stuff. If I see that someone I want to get to know likes a certain band, it isn't hard for me to check that band out and possibly get into them. That's why I started watching Star Trek, and now I love it. I met someone who I wanted to establish common ground with, and I learned that he liked Star Trek, so I began to watch it for myself. Turns out I love the show. And now we have more common ground.

INTPs need to be wary of an obsession with the esoteric for its own sake. I used to be into all sorts of stuff no one had ever heard of, and I couldn't relate to anyone about anything. These days I see the logic in exposing oneself to some of the more popular stuff out there. A) it is popular for a reason and is often very enjoyable, and B) you can share it with people. It is like becoming fluent in their language. Of all the things in the world to choose from, why not choose some that you are likely to enjoy AND be able to share with other people? Esoteric gems still come up naturally for me, but I see no need to pursue them for their own sake.

That's you. I'm not you.

 

[Lobstrich]

Popularity isn't overrated. Having a hoard of good people looking out for you is unbeatable. People who were never popular have done a good job of making popularity seem like it isn't all it is cracked up to be, in an attempt to excuse not having it. There are a lot of misconceptions about popularity, and maybe the first of them is that only a select few can be popular. There is no reason for that to be true. Everyone who wants a lot of friends can have a lot of friends. Of course, we will all always have an inner-circle of friends and an outer-circle, but there is no reason not to be someone everyone likes.

What you need to realise Zago. Is that your opinion is not a fucking fact. In case you get offended by swearing (or anyone else) I'm swearing because if there's one thing that really ticks me off it's when people see subjective matters as something objective. YOU like having a whole bunch of friends, I do not. And it seems like boondockbabe doesn't either. I prefer having 2 friends "looking out for ya" instead of 50. Because my experience is that having a whole bunch of friends and expecting them to look out for you, only leads to being let down because non of them really took the stand for you when 'the shit hit the fan' and if you noticed I said "from my exprience" and not "I think" or "my impression is" I have tried to have more friends than what I think is good. And they let me take the blame, and they didn't back me up.

Bottom line is that you like having alot of friends. Other people do not. So stop making it sound as if it just is better. Because for some people it's not.

EDIT: And welcome to you boondockbabe. I just noticed that you only had 1 post.
Editing again. I thought you said "US" as in United States and not "us" but that doesn't really change what I said, just thought I'd let you know.

 

[Solitaire U.]

But I'm not talking about starving people. I'm talking about people like US. It is unnecessary for us to broaden our context to the extent that everything we say is meaningless.

You mean you're talking about people like YOU, and you must make a concerted effort to maintain the narrow linear context within which your rules remain applicable.

Personally, I'd sooner slip the $20 under the table to a starving person and forgo the self-celebratory tax deduction...

 

[Trebuchet]

Close relationships are defined in part by the level of disclosure each party provides. The more personal the information which can be comfortably disclosed, the closer the friendship.... That's just how human relationships work.

In the United States, there is something to that. According to a study from October 2010, that is not true in Japan. Of course, if you are talking only about the US, then fine, but you said "human" so that includes the whole world.

While some of your "basic" guidelines are fine, like the ones about hygiene or making conversation, I couldn't believe you thought being the drug supplier for the party was "basic." Yes, you also mentioned food and the legal drug alcohol, but that you would even equate them seemed absurd.

I also thought it was weird that you thought having a tan was on par with flossing. It is clear you like tanned skin, which is okay. I like whatever color skin someone was born with. Fish-belly white is fine with me: computer geeks make the best mates anyway. Artificial tans turn me off. I know for a fact I am not unique in this, so this is not a universal, hence "basic," guideline.

Also, avoiding social situations where you won't do well is cowardice. If you never risk failure, you never grow or learn. How do you get to where you will shine in a social setting if you never go to any where you won't shine?

As for #16, if you are trying to say go with your gut feelings about someone you are thinking of dating, say that. But that has nothing to do with self-respect (which by the way is not reduced by open-mindedness).

 

[MissQuote]

I was amused by the analogy in the previous post, so I decided to flesh it out a bit. I present to you, Snake Bite.... Or Not? Yeah I know kind of lame and definitely exaggerated, but I guess I'm bored.

Bob: DUDE, WATCH OUT A SNAKE UP AHEAD!
Bill: Huh? Oh, that? Yeah, right.
Bob: WHAT? STOP! A FUCKING SNAKE!
Bill: What the hell man? Why so serious?
Bob: OH FUCK
Bill: Please dude, how can you be so sure? Stop trying to force your beliefs on me, man.
Bob: HOLY SHIT THAT SNAKE JUST FUCKIN BIT YOU
Bill: Omg, how could you ever even prove that? Can you supply me with at least 5 studies on whether or not I just got bit by a snake?
Bob: I'm calling 911 man. Your face is getting really pale. And your eyes are rolling back in your head...
Bill: Wtf man, that's just who I am, ok? If I want my eyes to roll back in my head, well then you had better fucking respect that shit. I really feel like you are just brushing off everything I say.
Bob: BUT YOU JUST GOT BIT BY A BLACK MAMBA.
Bill: ....look.... man..... I..... I...... banjo...... pork..... god I'm so tired..... *plop*
Bob: BILL???????????????????????????

(alternatively)


Bob: DUDE, WATCH OUT A SNAKE UP AHEAD!
Bill: Huh? Oh, that? Yeah, right.
Bob: WHAT? STOP! A FUCKING SNAKE!
Bill: What the hell man? Why so serious?
Bob: OH FUCK
Bill: Please dude, why are you so worried? I really don't think this is that important. *picks up snake*
Bob: HOLY SHIT THAT SNAKE JUST FUCKIN BIT YOU
Bill: Omg, it's no big deal man, calm down, I was just reading about these snakes yesterday...
Bob: I'm calling 911 man. I think your face is getting really pale. And your eyes are rolling back in your head...
Bill: *groaning* ... I really feel like you are just brushing off everything I say.
Bob: BUT YOU JUST GOT BIT BY A....
Bill: Garter Snake? Seriously, I used to chase these things around all the time when I was a kid, I mean I got bored with it and moved on to more interesting stuff a long time ago...
Bob: NO! WHY WON'T YOU LISTEN TO ME!!! THIS IS IMPORTANT!! I KNOW WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT!!!
Bill: *Rolls eyes*

 

[Lobstrich]

(alternatively)


Bob: DUDE, WATCH OUT A SNAKE UP AHEAD!
Bill: Huh? Oh, that? Yeah, right.
Bob: WHAT? STOP! A FUCKING SNAKE!
Bill: What the hell man? Why so serious?
Bob: OH FUCK
Bill: Please dude, why are you so worried? I really don't think this is that important. *picks up snake*
Bob: HOLY SHIT THAT SNAKE JUST FUCKIN BIT YOU
Bill: Omg, it's no big deal man, calm down, I was just reading about these snakes yesterday...
Bob: I'm calling 911 man. I think your face is getting really pale. And your eyes are rolling back in your head...
Bill: *groaning* ... I really feel like you are just brushing off everything I say.
Bob: BUT YOU JUST GOT BIT BY A....
Bill: Garter Snake? Seriously, I used to chase these things around all the time when I was a kid, I mean I got bored with it and moved on to more interesting stuff a long time ago...
Bob: NO! WHY WON'T YOU LISTEN TO ME!!! THIS IS IMPORTANT!! I KNOW WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT!!!
Bill: *Rolls eyes*

Lol.

 

[Mello]

Zago, INTPs hate being "normal". I can agree with a lot of what you say but I doubt you'll convince anyone else here.

 

[Lobstrich]

Zago, INTPs hate being "normal". I can agree with a lot of what you say but I doubt you'll convince anyone else here.

What is 'normal'? I find it funny people have this concept of what is normal. People are what they are.

 

[NinjaSurfer]

Basic Guidelines for Social Success at INTPForum.com

1. say less is better
2. vague is en vogue
3. i don't always afk, but when i do...

 

[zago]

Basic Guidelines for Social Success at INTPForum.com
2. vague is en vogue

I really agree with that one. It is so annoying. It absolutely destroys any possibility of meaningful discussion. Like if I say, "Shaq is tall," some asshole is gonna come around like "dude, that's totally relative man. Mount Everest is nearly 30,000 feet. Shaq is just tall in your OPINION." Same thing with INTPc, it is pathetic. No topic actually goes anywhere there or actually becomes informative because everyone is so willing to entertain ridiculous assumptions and give equal significance to impractical, vague, and hypothetical arguments. Guess that's the downside of getting a group of similar minds together. It is a well known fact that INTPs tend to disregard practicality. It's still amazing to me, though, that so few people realize what's going on.

 

[Solitaire U.]

Pity the forsaken child forced to suffer the indignity of calling you 'teacher'. Join a fucking SJ site already.

 

[Lobstrich]

I really agree with that one. It is so annoying. It absolutely destroys any possibility of meaningful discussion. Like if I say, "Shaq is tall," some asshole is gonna come around like "dude, that's totally relative man. Mount Everest is nearly 30,000 feet. Shaq is just tall in your OPINION." Same thing with INTPc, it is pathetic. No topic actually goes anywhere there or actually becomes informative because everyone is so willing to entertain ridiculous assumptions and give equal significance to impractical, vague, and hypothetical arguments. Guess that's the downside of getting a group of similar minds together. It is a well known fact that INTPs tend to disregard practicality. It's still amazing to me, though, that so few people realize what's going on.

I'm with Soltaire. If you think we suck so much why don't you just... Disappear?

Out of curiosity, what type are you? Something with S and J wouldn't surprise me

EDIT: "It is a well known fact that INTPs tend to disregard practicality. It's still amazing to me, though, that so few people realize what's going on." - That's bullshit. Just bullshit. You really need to stop fucking acting as if your opinions, your ideas and your guidelines are facts of life. I think we all realise what's going on. Or at least I do. You're being tremendously ignorant, it's almost painful to watch. You know what? Scratch that. It is painful to watch, and it's annoying as fuck. You cannot expect us to just eat everything you throw at us. If we do not like the taste of it. Then that's it. You should stop acting as if there's something wrong with us just because we do not like what you give us. People are different, and you apparently have an extremely hard to seeing that.

 

[Moocow]

Now you guys are stereotyping and using SJ as a derogatory term which is pretty unfair, and it's rather hypocritical. Try to take the heat with a little grace instead of letting it throw you overboard.

Zago could be an INTP that happens to have adopted a more pushy tone, but he isn't really being pushy because you guys seem to forget that we have the utmost freedom to disregard his posts.
Given the right circumstances, I know I can have "I've had enough!" days where my behavior borders on ENTJ and things I'd second-guess to oblivion seem self-evident. Then I can become impatient, pushy, and perhaps a tad arrogant. He uses personal experience to enforce his argument, which is actually a rather INTP thing.

The vagueness he speaks of has its extremes here and I welcome any challenge to it. It's one thing to examine our assumptions about reality and concede that they aren't verifiable, but it's another to just throw the solipsist bomb into the rink and assume you've got an indisputable argument... it's a cop out. If your argument just comes down to a difference in personal experience, then the best you can do is provide some kind of data that will inform his generalizations.


As for disregarding practicality, zago, I disagree. I think that our speculation takes on an idealistic form, but in practice those ideals are only really used suggestively, not dogmatically. If that were the case, most of us probably wouldn't do anything at all, forum debates included. We're trying to remain as truthful as possible by ensuring the fundamentals are established before debating the gritty details. Like we discussed in earlier posts about eliminating ego: it's a broad, impractical ideal that guides a kind of self improvement we may not have experienced otherwise.

 

[Dimensional Transition]

Zago, INTPs hate being "normal". I can agree with a lot of what you say but I doubt you'll convince anyone else here.

I just dislike the term 'normal' in general, though.
I think it's mainly because INTPs try to be as objective as possible, 'normal', 'good', 'bad', they're all just opinions(love you Zago <3). I do whatever I feel like doing. Some people like me for that randomness, others think it's weird... Or annoying...

I get what you mean Zago, sometimes it goes too far and people become unpractical, but generally, I think it's good to have a general neutral approach to everything at least at first.

 

[MissQuote]

The thing that strikes me is zago insisting that what he has found is so spectacular that everyone else wants it, or should want it, even when others are explicitly stating that they do not in fact care for it.

I'm going to try for an analogy here.

Let's say peanut butter is most people
And peanutbutter cookies are social sucess in the form of popularity with most people


Now all the ingredients, flour, sugar, eggs, baking powder, as well as bowls, spoons, pans and heat are the tools one needs, as well as their own will and desire to take action, would be the list of requirments in oreder to create a large batch of peanubutter cookies (sucess/lots of friends) out of peanutbutter (all the people met on an average basis).

But what if one really doesn't like peanutbutter, and honestly gets a little sick when made to eat it. Or lets say they are diabetic or have a gluten allergy (moral qualms against some of the other ingredients) yet a good meaning person keeps insisting they need to follow the recipe as they have laid it out specifically in order to get to the point of eating those peanubutter cookies, and they would want to eat them if they knew what was good for them, they must just not understand how great peanutbutter cookies are or they would in fact forget about that allergy and eat the cookies, and in fact that aversion to peanutbutter doesn't mean much when you consider the cookies.

 

[Moocow]

The thing that strikes me is zago insisting that what he has found is so spectacular that everyone else wants it, or should want it, even when others are explicitly stating that they do not in fact care for it.

I'm going to try for an analogy here.

Let's say peanut butter is most people
And peanutbutter cookies are social sucess in the form of popularity with most people


Now all the ingredients, flour, sugar, eggs, baking powder, as well as bowls, spoons, pans and heat are the tools one needs, as well as their own will and desire to take action, would be the list of requirments in oreder to create a large batch of peanubutter cookies (sucess/lots of friends) out of peanutbutter (all the people met on an average basis).

But what if one really doesn't like peanutbutter, and honestly gets a little sick when made to eat it. Or lets say they are diabetic or have a gluten allergy (moral qualms against some of the other ingredients) yet a good meaning person keeps insisting they need to follow the recipe as they have laid it out specifically in order to get to the point of eating those peanubutter cookies, and they would want to eat them if they knew what was good for them, they must just not understand how great peanutbutter cookies are or they would in fact forget about that allergy and eat the cookies, and in fact that aversion to peanutbutter doesn't mean much when you consider the cookies.

True that. In fact, I think I'd like to go make some peanut butter cookies. And eat them... alone.

 

[Solitaire U.]

Now you guys are stereotyping and using SJ as a derogatory term which is pretty unfair, and it's rather hypocritical. Try to take the heat with a little grace instead of letting it throw you overboard.

My opening comment was derogatory by design, but the SJ comment was made with the utmost sincerity and respect. I'm a firm believer that every Holmes needs a Watson. I was merely suggesting an alternative venue more befitting the OP's...style of self-expression. OP has clearly stated that he suffers with this forum's pathetic, impractical, vague, and hypothetical tendencies, and it just doesn't seem...practical that he should continue to do so.

*Edit Why bother to make cookies out of something as perfect straight out of the jar as peanut butter?

 

[zago]

Pity the forsaken child forced to suffer the indignity of calling you 'teacher'. Join a fucking SJ site already.

I'm the coolest teacher around. It's been a great journey, these last 3 years. As a newbie, I spent my planning period alone, lunch alone, and worked alone after school. These days my main problem is never have any time to work or eat because I always have at least a handful of kids by my side. I have minions. This morning I got there a little later than usual, and got chewed out by kids who demand as much of my presence as possible. But I think students like you wouldn't like me, because they probably feel like I don't understand them. You're one of those types who thinks people should make a greater effort to understand you.

I'm with Soltaire. If you think we suck so much why don't you just... Disappear?

Out of curiosity, what type are you? Something with S and J wouldn't surprise me

I know, right? That's what happens when you grow up, you realize the importance of the areas you've been neglecting and start taking care of things. But I am 100% INTP. I used to be like you.

And I shall disappear. Notice, I have been a member here for months and have only ever actively participated in 3 or 4 threads. I don't really spend much time on internet forums. This is mostly a waste of time. Spending hours a day on a site like this is indicative that you have a problem. It's very unhealthy. If this post isn't my last one for a long time, one of the next few will be, and I won't be seen much for a while until I feel like I have something big to say and want to debate it. The last couple days have fulfilled this need in me, and have made me remember why I quit INTPc.

The irony in your wanting my disappearance is, of course, that I am not a pervasive member of this forum. In the last 3 days or so, I have not visited or posted in any thread but this one. All you have needed to do to avoid me was to stay out of this thread, but you didn't--you posted in it many, many times. You must know deep down that I have something to say. My intentions for this thread are the same now as they were when I started it--I want to help you. I used to have the same confused thoughts, and I wish someone would have taken the time to explain the problems with them to me, as I have to you right here. I probably would have resisted as well. You'll come around in a few months. You won't forget this conversation we've had. When you realize that you're wrong, and that everything I have said is actually very helpful and liberating, you can thank me via PM, and I'll be glad to direct you to more helpful resources and continue to expand upon the truth that I have laid out here. There's a lot more to talk about. People here can't handle it... which isn't even surprising, because it is a community of people so lonely irl that they live their social lives here.

EDIT: "It is a well known fact that INTPs tend to disregard practicality. It's still amazing to me, though, that so few people realize what's going on." - That's bullshit. Just bullshit. You really need to stop fucking acting as if your opinions, your ideas and your guidelines are facts of life. I think we all realise what's going on. Or at least I do. You're being tremendously ignorant, it's almost painful to watch. You know what? Scratch that. It is painful to watch, and it's annoying as fuck. You cannot expect us to just eat everything you throw at us. If we do not like the taste of it. Then that's it. You should stop acting as if there's something wrong with us just because we do not like what you give us. People are different, and you apparently have an extremely hard to seeing that.

No they aren't.

Now you guys are stereotyping and using SJ as a derogatory term which is pretty unfair, and it's rather hypocritical. Try to take the heat with a little grace instead of letting it throw you overboard.

Zago could be an INTP that happens to have adopted a more pushy tone, but he isn't really being pushy because you guys seem to forget that we have the utmost freedom to disregard his posts.

Thank you moocow, you have become the voice of reason here. I'm impressed.

Given the right circumstances, I know I can have "I've had enough!" days where my behavior borders on ENTJ and things I'd second-guess to oblivion seem self-evident. Then I can become impatient, pushy, and perhaps a tad arrogant. He uses personal experience to enforce his argument, which is actually a rather INTP thing.

The vagueness he speaks of has its extremes here and I welcome any challenge to it. It's one thing to examine our assumptions about reality and concede that they aren't verifiable, but it's another to just throw the solipsist bomb into the rink and assume you've got an indisputable argument... it's a cop out. If your argument just comes down to a difference in personal experience, then the best you can do is provide some kind of data that will inform his generalizations.


As for disregarding practicality, zago, I disagree. I think that our speculation takes on an idealistic form, but in practice those ideals are only really used suggestively, not dogmatically. If that were the case, most of us probably wouldn't do anything at all, forum debates included. We're trying to remain as truthful as possible by ensuring the fundamentals are established before debating the gritty details. Like we discussed in earlier posts about eliminating ego: it's a broad, impractical ideal that guides a kind of self improvement we may not have experienced otherwise.

That is true. I understand where a lot of you are coming from, and I know that it took me a long time and a lot of wrong turns to get where I am today. My self from 2 or 3 years ago would have argued strongly against the things I have said in this thread. The only good way to make any progress is, indeed, to just do whatever you think is right and want to do. New ideas take some time to get used to. It's a big advantage if you hear them from someone you look up to, and I know I don't have that advantage here with anyone. However, I think it was worth it for me to spend the time I did explaining why I feel how I do.

That is the difference between me and an SJ, and that's why I have found this meaningful. An SJ wouldn't bother to explain. Ever wonder why they don't have their own forum? I have made my absolute best attempt to rationally explain the recommendations I've made, trying to make them resonate with people to some extent. Hopefully I have gone some way in proving that these tips are effective and efficient, and hopefully I have challenged some stale beliefs that needed to be weeded out before new ones could grow.

 

[BigApplePi]

It's official. Dealing with humans is not worth the bother.

I use pets as fills ins. They require a modest amount of care though.

 

[Lobstrich]

Now you guys are stereotyping and using SJ as a derogatory term which is pretty unfair, and it's rather hypocritical. Try to take the heat with a little grace instead of letting it throw you overboard.

Zago could be an INTP that happens to have adopted a more pushy tone, but he isn't really being pushy because you guys seem to forget that we have the utmost freedom to disregard his posts.

The SJ thing was a joke, although that's certaintly the feeling I get from him.

And I don't think he's being pushy, I don't even think I've said that (if I have, sorry for the confusion) What I meant then was that I think he's acting ignorant. Touting all his opinions and beliefs as the best in the world, as facts of life, as something objevitve. While "good"/"better" is one of the most subjective things you'll ever get across.

EDIT:

The thing that strikes me is zago insisting that what he has found is so spectacular that everyone else wants it, or should want it, even when others are explicitly stating that they do not in fact care for it.

This is what I mean, that's the behaviour I'm talking about.(Zagos, not yours MissQuote)

 

[Lobstrich]

The irony in your wanting my disappearance is, of course, that I am not a pervasive member of this forum. In the last 3 days or so, I have not visited or posted in any thread but this one. All you have needed to do to avoid me was to stay out of this thread, but you didn't--you posted in it many, many times. You must know deep down that I have something to say. My intentions for this thread are the same now as they were when I started it--I want to help you. I used to have the same confused thoughts, and I wish someone would have taken the time to explain the problems with them to me, as I have to you right here. I probably would have resisted as well. You'll come around in a few months. You won't forget this conversation we've had. When you realize that you're wrong, and that everything I have said is actually very helpful and liberating, you can thank me via PM, and I'll be glad to direct you to more helpful resources and continue to expand upon the truth that I have laid out here. There's a lot more to talk about. People here can't handle it... which isn't even surprising, because it is a community of people so lonely irl that they live their social lives here.

Like I said to Moocow (as well as you, I think) is that I do not think you are "pushy" I never said I wanted to avoid you, I hate people who 'avoid' each other. And of course I know that you have something to say? You're saying it.
But by saying "But deep down you know I have something to say" Are you implying that 'deep down' I agree with you? Then you're wrong.
I know what your intentions are, and I do no fucking care for them. You really need to understand this. You think you've got some good tips lined up. But that doesn't mean we all think they are good. And this time I'm not doing the "I'm just saying it's subjective, even though I never said either, or" This time I have said, very bluntly, that I do not give a shit. I do not want to spend my money on tanning beds and I do not want to spend all my money on cool clothes and I do not want to act like everyone wants me to. I want to act as I want to. Again(x10) with the ignorance "You use to have the same confused thoughts" What the fuck is that supposed to mean? That just because I do not want your tanning beds and conforming behaviour, I'm confused?

You won't forget this conversation we've had. When you realize that you're wrong, and that everything I have said is actually very helpful and liberating, you can thank me via PM, and I'll be glad to direct you to more helpful resources and continue to expand upon the truth that I have laid out here. There's a lot more to talk about. People here can't handle it... which isn't even surprising, because it is a community of people so lonely irl that they live their social lives here.

I don't even know what to say.. You're fucking ridiculous. But no, I probably won't forget this conversation. You know why? Not because in a month I'll 'come around' I haven't 'come around' for 19 years now. But because you are probably the most ignorant person I have ever met, in my entire fucking life (I know it's not a long one.. But wow, just wow...)

No they aren't.

I don't understand what you're saying no to here. Do you agree with me? Or are you saying that you opinions, ideas and beliefs are in fact, facts of life?

 

[NinjaSurfer]

I think sometimes people use the internet (forums) to rant and rave... especially introverts (and more especially INTP's...) for usually having lack of the 'normal' social circle--

so that: the words that come out on the screen express FEELINGS--- which we (INTP's) sometimes have a difficult time processing...

it is technically "literal" since it is written word, so we take it literally; when, in actuality, the other person may have been just venting pent up feelings and not trying to make a logical point...

then we beat it up to death.

but that's what makes us special.

 

[Lobstrich]

I use pets as fills ins. They require a modest amount of care though.

You should get one of those robots. You know, you can have conversations with them and play with them. When you're tired, you just pull out the batteries, perfect.

 

[Lobstrich]

I think sometimes people use the internet (forums) to rant and rave... especially introverts (and more especially INTP's...) for usually having lack of the 'normal' social circle--

so that: the words that come out on the screen express FEELINGS--- which we (INTP's) sometimes have a difficult time processing...

it is technically "literal" since it is written word, so we take it literally; when, in actuality, the other person may have been just venting pent up feelings and not trying to make a logical point...

then we beat it up to death.

but that's what makes us special.

What? I don't.. What are you on about?

 

[zago]

@lob I shan't be answering your questions. Our talk has come to the point of diminished returns. Adieu.

 

[Bird]

I use pets as fills ins. They require a modest amount of care though.

I got a kitten. She is introverted and playful.
We get on well, she doesn't require too much
attention.