Basic Guidelines for Social Success

[Lobstrich]

@lob I shan't be answering your questions. Our talk has come to the point of diminished returns. Adieu.

Ok.

 

[Puffy]

Is it safe? Is it over

People! You are free!

 

[^_\\]

I think zago was saying no to your statement that people are different.

Zago I don't know if you'll read this but I guess this can go out to anyone who does this. Previously holding opinions, and then changing your mind does not make the opinions you previously held worse. Or more specifically opinions other people holding opinions that sounds like your previous perspective doesn't mean they're wrong. It's easy to think you've figured something out, increased your understanding, when your perspective shifts, or in this case you discover how much you enjoy being popular but often it is just a matter of shifting perspective. Case in point, I've been popular and it's tiring. "Popularity isn't overrated" is not fact, even if you are right in thinking people are rationalising (which I think you think because you were rationalising.) Case in point I've been popular and I found it tiring.

You throw a lot of subjective stuff out as fact. It's something you will rarely get called on because it's a really common way to talk about things but combined with the "oh I used to think that too" thing you sound a little preachy and that's why I think you are getting a lot of negative responses.


I was gonna go through every post you made and collect everything I could find but the first had all of this:

"I thought to myself, I will always be this happy, no matter what I obtain. This simply isn't true. It made my life meaningless. Now I see my job for what it is. I baby sit a bunch of people until they get to prison, and it is a wretched job. It is right for me to aspire to something better, something more meaningful."

"You need to have certain qualities in order to be of value to people."


Subjective as objective, opinion as fact.

Oh and

"You're one of those types who thinks people should make a greater effort to understand you"

Really? You make no effort to avoid being perceived as an SJ. (For the record I don't believe in the theory, so I believe you are an intp in the sense that tests come up intp)



What's wrong with normal as a word? I can see how good and bad are subjective but isn't normal just average/not way off on one side of whatever bell curve you're talking about/the medical sense?

 

[Lobstrich]

What's wrong with normal as a word? I can see how good and bad are subjective but isn't normal just average/not way off on one side of whatever bell curve you're talking about/the medical sense?

I think I was the one who said "What is normal anyway?" and not zago, if he did say such, oh well. You get my response anyway.

I never said there's anything wrong with 'normal' I said I do not understand the concept of 'normal' Well, I do. But I don't get why people clinge to it. We are what we are, we shouldn't be stapled as "normal" "weird" or "different" or anything else for that matter. Like I said; We are what we are. Nothing more.

 

[Oblivious]

Zago. Thank you for posting what you did, and please do not see Lobstrich as representative of this forum. He most certainly is not representative of us all.

He's certainly getting more annoying then Yeti ever was. I hope you do not judge us all by him. I really felt that you should have started ignoring him much earlier on.

I for one see the value in the things you have advocated, and am glad that you have found your place in your life. I am still working on this myself, but old habits die hard. The problem is really maintaining integrity while still being well liked by everyone.

However I am finding that integrity and popularity might not always be mutually exclusive. People actually like people with integrity. They just have to be personable. People also like it when I can understand them without them telling me, which is easy for me to do because I've always been observing people. You would think it should be more common for people to understand each other, but its actually quite rare.

Recently I had to work on a game project for my undergraduate program. This was a group project, and though I hate working in groups, your experience is actually tied to the quality of your team mates. However, even if you have geniuses on your team, if you can't work with people, you will fail anyway. Regardless of the quality of your team, you have to look out for them and support them aside from doing your own job.

When I enter a public area, it's not just about me. I have to be mindful of the needs of others as well as guard against those who would seek to exploit me.

I don't know about others, but I am not satisfied with having a great idea. That great idea must come to reality so that I can prove to myself and everyone else that it really was a great idea. To do that, I have to face reality, I must face other people.

 

[Lobstrich]

Zago. Thank you for posting what you did, and please do not see Lobstrich as representative of this forum. He most certainly is not representative of us all.

I never claimed to represent you, the forum or INTPs in general.

He's certainly getting more annoying then Yeti ever was. I hope you do not judge us all by him. I really felt that you should have started ignoring him much earlier on.

How about you keep your insults somewhere else? I've never insulted you. And it doesn't help anything or anyone by doing so. And it certaintly doesn't help playing the better man (than me, in this case) while you insult.

 

[Oblivious]

I take my observations where ever I want. My observation was that you were, and still are, annoying. Do you deny this?

Oh, and don't think you can tell me what I can and cannot do.

Edit: I never claimed you claimed you were our representative. That was intended for zago, who might have gone away thinking this forum was full of people like you, which WOULD be an insult.

 

[Lobstrich]

I take my observations where ever I want. My observation was that you were, and still are, annoying. Do you deny this?

Do I deny me being annoying? Uh, yes. I guess. But how can I confirm or deny something that is your opinion? You think I'm annoying, I can't deny that.

Oh, and don't think you can tell me what I can and cannot do.

I wasn't telling you to do anything, it was a suggestion, hence the "how about"

Edit: I never claimed you claimed you were our representative. That was intended for zago, who might have gone away thinking this forum was full of people like you, which WOULD be an insult.

No, you didn't make that claim. It was directed at zago, ok.


Could you tell me why I'm annoying then? How do I annoy you?

 

[Oblivious]

Unlike the others, although I see how annoying you are, I will not try to help you.

They tried, look where it got them. The fact that you can deny being annoying is the most flagrant example of delusion I've seen in awhile. I would not even deny being annoying myself, and I am surprised that, unlike me, you even care. I thought you did not care what others thought of you?

I also have no inclination or intention to prove it to you. My post was intended for zago, not you. You did not, and still do not matter. Hence, I shall not waste my precious time replying any further to you.

You're on your own, just the way you like it.

 

[Lobstrich]

Unlike the others, although I see how annoying you are, I will not try to help you.

They tried, look where it got them. The fact that you can deny being annoying is the most flagrant example of delusion I've seen in awhile. I would not even deny being annoying myself, and I am surprised that, unlike me, you even care. I thought you did not care what others thought of you?

I also have no inclination or intention to prove it to you. My post was intended for zago, not you. You did not, and still do not matter. Hence, I shall not waste my precious time replying any further to you.

You're on your own, just the way you like it.

Help me? Who has tried helping me, Zago? I wasn't talking about help. I was talking about you backing up your statement with arguments.

I'm surprised that your surprised about me "denying" It is your opinion that I'm annoying. It's all relative. You can't pin me with delusion just because I don't agree with you.

But okay, act mature, drop the arguement. Funny how mature it is to barge in, insult me twice and then act all better.

EDIT: When have I ever claimed wanting to be alone?

 

[NinjaSurfer]

at least INTP's make sense when they argue.

edit: i feel like there should be a follow up statement like...

"unlike girls"

 

[Lobstrich]

at least INTP's make sense when they argue.

edit: i feel like there should be a follow up statement like...

"unlike girls"

Who's this directed at? Me? Zago? Oblivious? Everybody?

 

[Melllvar]

Is it safe? Is it over

People! You are free!

Yeah I'd hoped so too but apparently not...

Some statistics on this thread (as of post #162):

Posts by zago (threadstarter, who argued against nearly everyone else): 29%
Posts by Lobstrich (who argued against zago, mostly): 26.5%
All other posters combined: 44.5%

Read into that what you will.

 

[Lobstrich]

Yeah I'd hoped so too but apparently not...

Some statistics on this thread (as of post #162):

Posts by zago (threadstarter, who argued against nearly everyone else): 29%
Posts by Lobstrich (who argued against zago, mostly): 26.5%
All other posters combined: 44.5%

Read into that what you will.

Lol.

Where do you find such statistics? That's pretty interesting.

 

[NinjaSurfer]

Who's this directed at? Me? Zago? Oblivious? Everybody?

like, everybody--
hard for me to have my own opinion these days bc I can see where everyone is coming from.
I was a philosophy major, and I was always like..
"good point... well, he makes a good point too..."

 

[NinjaSurfer]

Yeah I'd hoped so too but apparently not...

Some statistics on this thread (as of post #162):

Posts by zago (threadstarter, who argued against nearly everyone else): 29%
Posts by Lobstrich (who argued against zago, mostly): 26.5%
All other posters combined: 44.5%

Read into that what you will.

that gave me my chuckle for the day
thank you

 

[Puffy]

like, everybody--
hard for me to have my own opinion these days bc I can see where everyone is coming from.
I was a philosophy major, and I was always like..
"good point... well, he makes a good point too..."

You should make that your sig, it sounds a pretty good summary (:

 

[digital angel]

at least INTP's make sense when they argue.

edit: i feel like there should be a follow up statement like...

"unlike girls"

LOL. I agree with you and disagree with you.

 

[EditorOne]

Not to take this back to the original theme or anything, but hey, Zago, you might (or might not) be interested to know that Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson of American Civil War fame had a list much like that, put together in his youth. He set it down in the margins of various notebooks; it was very much a list of things a painfully awkward fellow who for whatever reason thought he should get ahead in society would have to master in order to fit in.
One that I found hit home, that oddly is just the opposite of your Number 11, was this: "Do not take counsel of your fears." As an insecure introverted over-thinker, I found that one particularly useful, not that I stumbled upon it soon enough.
I thought you had a very practical list, but at some point doing all those things consistently would make me someone else entirely. As a set of tools for not coming across "weird" on first contact, though, I think it's great.

 

[kantor1003]

OP:You mentioned how you hated that you only played the guitar for yourself back in the days and how it was, probably among other things, detrimental for you in getting any relationships? Is this correct?

I think the optimal way is to pursue/get good at something because of your own desires, and in turn you can get respected for it. You are expressing yourself, or doing something, and people can appreciate you for that. Your experience seem to be that you weren't getting appreciated, respected, or getting girls, etc. and you blame that on the fact that you were only playing the guitar to get something out of it yourself, when the problem, if one can call it that, isn't there to be found.

The reason why I'm not a fan of your guidelines, seen in isolation (and within the context of someone wanting "success"), is because it connotes the frame of mind that a beta male would find himself in when he asks himself the question "why doesn't anyone like me?". The answer isn't to be found in the way he dresses, although being nicely dressed could help the insecure feel more confident about himself, as people high on the social hierarchy, even in places where they aren't already established as such, would make even the most horrible clothing work for their purposes. Building that type of character, if one are low in the social hierarchy, should be the first priority if one wants to pursue success, attractive girls, respect, - not polishing your nails. It's secondary, and in my view, secondary to the extent where most of it's purpose is to bring out qualities like confidence (qualities seen in people high on the social hierarchy) in people that are low on the social ladder. The first step, if you want to change anything, is working with yourself, not with the stupid stuff you choose to wrap your body in.

 

[digital angel]

Originally Posted by zago
16. It is ok to dislike or even hate people. Some people are worthy of that, even for reasons you don't know but may sense (for instance, near-imperceptible microexpressions could be giving you bad signals). DON'T TRY TO BE OPEN MINDED. Have a little self-respect, and just admit, at least to yourself, that you find that person or situation highly unpalatable.

Any others that you can think of?
"It is ok to dislike or even hate people. Some people are worthy of that, even for reasons you don't know but may sense (for instance, near-imperceptible microexpressions could be giving you bad signals). DON'T TRY TO BE OPEN MINDED. Have a little self-respect, and just admit, at least to yourself, that you find that person or situation highly unpalatable."


"I think this is a very ignorant attitude. I know how that could be construed as an ironic statement. I am not judging you though, only this particular opinion you hold."

I think what this person is trying to say is "to each his or her own." Another point this person might be trying to point out is that a lot of people carry a facade or have a je ne sais quois attitude.

Another thing to consider in social situations(whatever the specific social situation is) is that most people have a desire to fit in or have something in common. This isn't unnatural. For example, in a dinner event, the nexus could be that everyone knows the host or knows someone who knows the host. In an event at a University, the nexus could be that everyone has a degree from that institution.

Having said all of this, I also agree with you that being open minded is important. Where would the U.S. be today? Would there still be slavery? Would women still be considered second class citizens? Change and diversity are good things; in my opinion, it probably isn't embraced as much as it should be.

 

[Hadoblado]

I only read the first page, then came back a week later and looked at the last. Wtf happened in the middle? What happened to make a simple set of guide lines turn into all out quote-to-quote warfare?
I could answer the question by reading pages 2 & 3, but that seems like too practical an application of my curiosity. There's some pretty crazy hate goin' on, just sayin'.

 

[NinjaSurfer]

I only read the first page, then came back a week later and looked at the last. Wtf happened in the middle? What happened to make a simple set of guide lines turn into all out quote-to-quote warfare?
I could answer the question by reading pages 2 & 3, but that seems like too practical an application of my curiosity. There's some pretty crazy hate goin' on, just sayin'.

my forum experiencez cause me to make this generalization to answer ur pontification:

INTP's are incapable of dealing with emotions; oh they may try, but they often give answers and advice where none was welcome, and what was really warranted was a listening and compassionate ear.

 

[NinjaSurfer]

You should make that your sig, it sounds a pretty good summary (:

sir yes sir
or is it ma'am!? o_O

 

[BigApplePi]

my forum experiencez cause me to make this generalization to answer ur pontification:

INTP's are incapable of dealing with emotions; oh they may try, but they often give answers and advice where none was welcome, and what was really warranted was a listening and compassionate ear.

I deal with my emotions by ignoring them, lol. Why have a cheap emotion when you can try out an idea? If they ain't suffering is there any time for compassion? If they is suffering, then one can always direct one's ideas to that.

On the other hand my wife says, "I just wanted to you to listen to me. I wasn't seeking advice." What do I know? I guess I will have to listen to you NinjaS.

 

[Lobstrich]

Hey stop it you guys! You are annoying, more annoying than SpaceYeti and I ever were!

 

[Lobstrich]

I only read the first page, then came back a week later and looked at the last. Wtf happened in the middle? What happened to make a simple set of guide lines turn into all out quote-to-quote warfare?
I could answer the question by reading pages 2 & 3, but that seems like too practical an application of my curiosity. There's some pretty crazy hate goin' on, just sayin'.

I don't hate anybody, I just didn't like zago's attitude (call that hate if you will) And he didn't like mine, I guess.

The only straight out disliking/beefing/hating I got was from Oblivious @ me. But I'd still agree on the "wtf happened in the middle?" Heh.

 

[Cavallier]

I think Zago's list acts as a basic guideline for people who really have no clue on how to interact with other people. It's a set of rules that help you to understand the game of Social Interaction. Then once you've figured the game out you can get away with not worrying about the rules and start delving into showing who you really are and getting to know people on a deeper level.

It's a set of tactics for dealing with social interaction for the sort of people that need tactics in order to function. I think most INTPs probably have big enough P-nesses to not really need to follow these sort of rules. These rules are more INTJ bait than anything I suspect.

 

[Lobstrich]

I think Zago's list acts as a basic guideline for people who really have no clue on how to interact with other people. It's a set of rules that help you to understand the game of Social Interaction. Then once you've figured the game out you can get away with not worrying about the rules and start delving into showing who you really are and getting to know people on a deeper level.

It's a set of tactics for dealing with social interaction for the sort of people that need tactics in order to function. I think most INTPs probably have big enough P-nesses to not really need to follow these sort of rules. These rules are more INTJ bait than anything I suspect.

Yeah, INTJs are such losers? Right?

 

[Cavallier]

^Totally! I hate you losers.

Actually, I was thinking more about their general tendency to follow procedures and guidelines for things. My mother is an INTJ and she doesn't do anything without first plotting out a 5 point course including possible outcomes and contingencies. I didn't intend to bash INTJs so much as point out why so many people on this forum seem to bristle at zago's idea. It seems like to much work and much to confining for most INTPs to make up such a plan and then actually follow through with it. I think we're really just to flaky for that. The flakiness comes from the giant p-ness I guess.

 

[NinjaSurfer]

I actually found Zago's original post quite humorous, as he quite seriously simultaneously generalizes and mocks the human race. Now I think it's rather ironic that INTP's (of all types) are debating the best way to achieve social success... that in itself is rather oxymoronic.

 

[Lobstrich]

^Totally! I hate you losers.

Actually, I was thinking more about their general tendency to follow procedures and guidelines for things. My mother is an INTJ and she doesn't do anything without first plotting out a 5 point course including possible outcomes and contingencies. I didn't intend to bash INTJs so much as point out why so many people on this forum seem to bristle at zago's idea. It seems like to much work and much to confining for most INTPs to make up such a plan and then actually follow through with it. I think we're really just to flaky for that. The flakiness comes from the giant p-ness I guess.

You losers? I'm not an INTJ, hehe.

Anyway, I agree on your theory of why many people are against the idea of having this set of rules.

 

[Hadoblado]

If we're on to meta-analysis already, then how cool is that his ideas did not meet with great social acceptance? :smiley_emoticons_mr

 

[sammael]

I actually found Zago's original post quite humorous, as he quite seriously simultaneously generalizes and mocks the human race.

Lol. How true, I didn't think of it quite like that.

Now I think it's rather ironic that INTP's (of all types) are debating the best way to achieve social success... that in itself is rather oxymoronic.

I think the only one placing importance on social success was zago, another reason why he/his list was met with such resistance. I actually (incorrectly) interpreted it as simply situational, tips to help make social situations less awkward, if one happened to be inclined that way in a particular social situation, not a way of life or 'style' as he apparently meant. The talking points anyway, the hygiene kind of goes without saying, and the dress/appearance points were just a matter of opinion.

If we're on to meta-analysis already, then how cool is that his ideas did not meet with great social acceptance? :smiley_emoticons_mr

Lol.

 

[MissQuote]

I think Zago's list acts as a basic guideline for people who really have no clue on how to interact with other people. It's a set of rules that help you to understand the game of Social Interaction. Then once you've figured the game out you can get away with not worrying about the rules and start delving into showing who you really are and getting to know people on a deeper level.

It's a set of tactics for dealing with social interaction for the sort of people that need tactics in order to function. I think most INTPs probably have big enough P-nesses to not really need to follow these sort of rules. These rules are more INTJ bait than anything I suspect.

From first reading the OP I couldn't help but think it was a strange list, it is basic indeed, so basic it is all obvious- the sort of advice well adjusted, intellectually capable adults have had inoculated into them by their mothers (or other care providers) their entire life. Zago taking a "I know what is best" stance made this seem even funnier.

I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, yeah, brushing my teeth daily and washing my hair every couple of days, wearing attractive clothing that is appropriate for the situation, asking what I can bring when invited to dinner, asking interested questions of the people who are speaking to me, and knowing when and how to make an escape- these things are, for me at the age of 30, quite obvious. Perhaps when I was 14 this advice would have been very good, even without all of it I worked it out eventually though. I still never remember to do my nails though.

When I think of all these things (the list) as advice for adults, I couldn't help but imaging a counslor/group leader instructing a group of mental paitients about to leave their closed ward for a less supervised life out in the open. Or a grade school teacher helping little children learn how to get along and get others to want to be around them.

 

[Cavallier]

I also think the instructional tone is funny. If taken seriously it'd be hard to not get offended.

You losers? I'm not an INTJ, hehe.

Really? Huh. I could have sworn you said you were an INTJ at some point. Meh. I seem to be mixing a lot of forum members up lately. I should work on that. A social failing on my part?



EDIT: Also, why is it so many people seem to think that INTPs suck at social interaction? I wonder if INTPs assume they aren't socially skilled but really are just hyper-aware of what they consider to be their shortcomings. Being an INTP does not equal Social Retard in my experience. I know INTPs that get along great socially.

When I think of somebody who isn't very socially capable I think of that guy/girl who talks to you for hours on end about stuff you don't care about. Everyone who knows them avoids them like the plague. They tend to be extroverted and seek out social interaction but don't seem to understand how to give people space or how to listen. That doesn't sound like INTP traits to me.

INTPs might not see the use of some of the more mundane aspects of social interaction. However, I don't think most INTPs don't know those aspects exist as zago's list and the tone of his list seems to indicate. Knowingly not taking part in the social games is different from being completely unaware of them.

 

[GYX_Kid]

When I think of somebody who isn't very socially capable I think of that guy/girl who talks to you for hours on end about stuff you don't care about. Everyone who knows them avoids them like the plague. They tend to be extroverted and seek out social interaction but don't seem to understand how to give people space or how to listen. That doesn't sound like INTP traits to me.

INTPs might not see the use of some of the more mundane aspects of social interaction. However, I don't think most INTPs don't know those aspects exist as zago's list and the tone of his list seems to indicate. Knowingly not taking part in the social games is different from being completely unaware of them.

a connected and engaged INTP can be really fun/interesting to be around, they'll likely add quirky personal touches to what they're doing if they're really really actually interested and involved in it.

 

[NinjaSurfer]

Basic Guidelines for Social Success (specific to INTP's)

feel free to add

1. no, they're not all looking at me
2. accept that you are smarter than all of them, yes, you are
3. your jokes are funny, even if they don't laugh, and even if you you don't tell anyone
4. yes it will weird her out if you tell her
5. whatever you're thinking about telling her, say the opposite

...
...
...

 

[zago]

To the haters... as you sit in your chair for hours rationalizing your inability to deal with my common sense advice, I have been doing something with myself. You're all going nowhere. You're only getting older. Internet forum addiction is a disease. Follow my simple advice and go reel in some real life contacts. I just hit the gym. Buildin' up them muscles. Oh and I went tanning. It was awesome. Feels like WIN-NING.

 

[kantor1003]

Yeah, build your muscles and get your tan. Let's see where your going It's going to be something big, I can feel it!

 

[Hadoblado]

Zago I like you, and I am open to the usefulness of your advice, but...
are you trolling us poor folk?

I know it's sometimes easier to call troll than deal with opposing arguments, but giving guidelines to Ps, and then telling them via the internet to get off the internet just seems trolltastic.

 

[Cavallier]

Feels like WIN-NING.

Does that feel anything like BI-winning?

 

[zago]

Yeah, build your muscles and get your tan. Let's see where your going It's going to be something big, I can feel it!

I was kind of trolling. I of course could have mentioned that I have been practicing guitar and learning flashcard decks (I now know all 27 amendments, all the US vice presidents, the number and years served of every US president, every world capital, every element's atomic number, am working on others), starting a business, practicing chess, keeping my place presentably clean... you know, the works. But even if it were just the muscles and the tan, I think that would be spectacular progress.

 

[Cavallier]

^I'm getting married.

Hah! Beat that for social success!* SnapSnapSnap

*SURGEON GENERAL WARNING: Getting married is not a sign of social success and is not recommended for most people. Getting married can cause cancer of the brain. Not getting married now greatly reduces serious risks to your health. Consult a doctor before partaking in marriage.*

 

[Anthile]

Oh, I get it. You're kind of a big deal in RL.

 

[Hadoblado]

Congratulations Cavallier!

Well, I'm tentative to feed a professed troll, but I would like to say that I'm happy for you that you are achieving the things that you find are important. I am also happy for everyone else who is not achieving the things you find important.
I can feel the bite of sarcastic retaliation at my heels as I post this, but I would urge everyone to practice pious Pdom in the face of an apparently stronger J.

 

[a detached retina]

I of course could have mentioned that I have been learning flashcard decks (I now know all 27 amendments, all the US vice presidents, the number and years served of every US president, every world capital, every element's atomic number, am working on others.

Impressive. You're on the fast track to Kim Peek status.

 

[xbox]

To the haters... as you sit in your chair for hours rationalizing your inability to deal with my common sense advice, I have been doing something with myself. You're all going nowhere. You're only getting older. Internet forum addiction is a disease. Follow my simple advice and go reel in some real life contacts. I just hit the gym. Buildin' up them muscles. Oh and I went tanning. It was awesome. Feels like WIN-NING.

Our definition of "going nowhere" is exactly what you're doing right now. But whatever floats your boat dude..

 

[Lobstrich]

Really? Huh. I could have sworn you said you were an INTJ at some point. Meh. I seem to be mixing a lot of forum members up lately. I should work on that. A social failing on my part?

Nope, I've tested INTP in all the tests I've taken. And I believe what I test as, is what I am. I do not agree with the physiology typing of Pod'Lair. So as far as I'm concerned a person is what he says he/she is, period.

EDIT: Also, why is it so many people seem to think that INTPs suck at social interaction? I wonder if INTPs assume they aren't socially skilled but really are just hyper-aware of what they consider to be their shortcomings. Being an INTP does not equal Social Retard in my experience. I know INTPs that get along great socially.INTPs might not see the use of some of the more mundane aspects of social interaction. However, I don't think most INTPs don't know those aspects exist as zago's list and the tone of his list seems to indicate. Knowingly not taking part in the social games is different from being completely unaware of them.

I completely agree, I even think I've said the same thing in this thread. I don't have any doubt that most (if not every) INTP on this forum knows that these things could lead to things. It's only a question of wanting to do those things.

 

[Lobstrich]

Our definition of "going nowhere" is exactly what you're doing right now. But whatever floats your boat dude..

Lol.